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bidkev
23-12-2006, 11:21 AM
Firstly, I'd like to apologise if this post comes across as a bit "heavy" at this time of the festive season. Secondly, I'd like to make it clear that this post is not intended as a defence of my actions, (as I feel I have nothing to defend), but as a vehicle of discussion/debate as to how we as a group are to 'present' ourselves and if we have anything to be ashamed of. Thirdly, I am posting it here as a sort of X posting from the video forum as I think it is highly important that it receives "mass coverage" as a very important "general fishing issue" and because the issue has ramifications beyond what is portrayed in one video as in:

http://www.ausfish.com.au/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1165352063


Not the best call posting the turtle catch.....just the sort of thing the greenies eat up :-/.

My view...........FWIW

I think it serves no purpose if we, as a group, or as individual fishos, attempt to hide or deny that co-incidental by-catch occurs during recreational fishing. Much has been spoken here regarding pro fishers and by-catch and as I have stated previously, I believe that the majority of pros do their utmost to minimise by-catch and to strive towards a sustainable fishery for all.

Those involved in previous threads regarding by-catch would appreciate just how ridiculous it would appear, if pro fishos attempted to deny the issue of by-catch and, if that is so, why then should we as individuals attempt to portray ourselves as not having similar issues? The DPI&F and pro fishers have attempted to illustrate all that is being done to minimise this problem and with regards to this thread, whether you think that is sufficient or not, is really irrelevant.

The point that I am trying to make is this. I for one, am not one to be easily swayed or influenced by the thoughts/deeds/actions of individuals, minority groups, or the major groups who are so easily influenced by them. I refuse to live my sporting/family life in dread of what they may think about me, or how they may use my (IMHO) responsible actions as a tool against me. I will not go about my business like a furtive smoker in an alley outside a restaurant and I refuse to become a "leper of society".

The video is an honest portrayal of what a days fishing used to be like for me and my family and is not intended to be, and should not be interpreted as, an illustration of the average fishos "day out" or as an argument as to why fishing should be outlawed. Anyone who attempts to use the video in this manner is small-minded, short sighted, and indeed, dishonest.

An honest interpretation of the (my apologies for a poorly edited) video would show that my sport was pursued in a manner that to the best of my abilities, taught my kids to be conservation minded and to cause the minimum of stress possible to the turtles..............a 14yr old is instructed how best to snip the line as close as possible to the turtle's beak, as soon as possible, and with some considerable risk to himself. The pre-cursor to the video states that I now longer fish this area in order to avoid the capture of turtles and the You Tube pre-cursor states that I do not use stainless hooks.....unfortunately, I forgot to mention this in the Ausfish clip. In another video, my deckie (who loves flake) is heard to say, "are we keeping it" (or something similar), to which I reply, "No, it is too beautiful".............in the heat of the battle, words had failed me and a better turn of phrase should have been, "no, it is too majestic".

"Majestic" is how I view these creatures, and how hopefully, I could portray our dealings with them. We battle with them but also, in their defeat, we do not deny their "majestic" rights and we show compassion. That is how I conduct my sport and that is how I teach my kids to also conduct theirs.

To deny that by-catch occurs or to shrink from portraying that fact for fear of retribution from small-minded minorities, is hardly "majestic".

We must not allow ourselves as sporting fishos, to be furtive about our sport, to hide the pleasure that we derive from it, to deny facts, or pretend that we do not have an impact of some sort on fish and other stocks. What we must do is be open, and strive to illustrate how we attempt to minimise that impact and also illustrate the highly important "human factor" ie how much pleasure we derive from it and how that enlightens what may otherwise be the "daily grind".

I do not apologise for the video (s) and despite my initial misgivings about posting it here, knowing full well that it may attract negative attention, after a long drawn out debate with myself, I decided to post it anyway.

What I have stated regarding how I feel about being pressurised by minority groups was the deciding factor in whether I should post it or not...............I refuse to be cowed, swayed, or otherwise dishonest in becoming anything other than open and honest about my sport. If the small-minded minority wish to use it as ammunition against me, or us as a group, then so be it, I refuse to spend my life having to think about how my actions can be turned against me in a dishonest manner.

We have to fight, not submit. We have to be open, not furtive, and most of all, we have to show our humanity.

I could dribble on for hours on this issue as it infuriates me as much as misguided political correctness, but as I said, this is the festive season and I hope this post is not too morose to spoil that. I just think this topic regarding how we present and conduct ourselves would be appropriate at any other time and I simply had to get it off my chest now before I began to brood on it.

Thanks for indulging me :D

kev

Lone_Wolf
23-12-2006, 01:20 PM
Kev,

Firstly great video mate, you should have a freezer full now!

IMHO I do not think ILF was having a go at you. The comment perhaps should have had more explanation as to avoid the implication you have taken from it.

Having met you and spoken several times I do not think there is a more thoughtful, responsible fisherman and father than you. Merry Christmas mate!

LW

bidkev
23-12-2006, 01:51 PM
Kev,

Firstly great video mate, you should have a freezer full now!

IMHO I do not think ILF was having a go at you. The comment perhaps should have had more explanation as to avoid the implication you have taken from it.

Having met you and spoken several times I do not think there is a more thoughtful, responsible fisherman and father than you. Merry Christmas mate!

LW



Thanks mate and a Merry Xmas to you............I was beginning to think that you'd been lost to the site.......nice to see that you're still around. :D

My post wasn't directed at ILF as I think that he has a valid point in that the vid could create ammo for those who would like to see it, and represent it, as being indicative of all that is wrong with our sport. I was merely trying to indicate (by this thread) that we shouldn't be ashamed, or hide, what happens (accidently) in the course of pursuing this great sport of ours.

If we fall into the trap of pretending that these things do not happen then we become lesser persons and more like those who attack us, in that we would be hiding or twisting the facts in order to pursue our agenda.

No, I have no concern with regards to folk pointing out the dangers of the video, I was simply trying to highlight and create debate about just how threatened we are. Threatened because we are becoming overly concerned about how others view us and because of that, are becoming more secretive about our sport and appeasing to those who we see as a threat. Threatened, because we have to pause for thought when we simply want to display our fishing exploits and family fun. Threatened, because we are beginning to heed those who think it is immoral to teach our kids how to fish. Threatened, because if the public continues to be "politically indoctrinated" by a minority then the public will fail to see the positive aspects of our sport.

It is almost getting to the point where we have to excuse ourselves constantly in order to placate a minority group which refuses to acknowledge that the majority of us are fiercley protective of our environment and strive constantly to protect it, and it's inhabitants. One chap I met at a ramp one day said that he always denies catching anything for fear of who is asking the question.

I am simply trying to illustrate that I refuse to be swayed by these people, and am seeking the views of others who do, (or do not), see things my way.

Is the threat real to you? Are you sometimes afraid to admit to non fishos that you pursue a "blood sport"? If so, other than denial of the facts that we do have by-catch and that we do impact on the environment, how can we negate those negatives that others will use against us? Should we be more optimistic or more pessimistic about the future of our sport?

All I am trying to say here is that I will not let the buggers grind me down, and although constantly striving to the best of my ability to pursue my sport in a caring manner, I refuse to constantly be "looking over my shoulder" for fear of some narrow-minded bigot attemting to denegrate me and mine.

kev

Owen
23-12-2006, 07:47 PM
Stick to your guns Kev!
Anyone who doesn't like it can have a chat to me mate Garn ;)
Catching the turtles is/was unfortunate, but that's the thing with fishing. You most often don't know what's on the hook until it's too late.
We get stacks of turtles around here and stacks of dolphins.
Touch wood, neither have opted to take my bait. (No doubt not wanting to appear to be the "odd man out" to all the other fishies).

I don't think it could be argued in a court of law that you treated the turtles inhumanely or did not adhere to the regulations regarding to the treatment & release of no-take species.

We have as a society become so worried about upsetting every moniority or single interest group that we've stopped living.

I even had to pull myself up a while back when that young nipper caught the record marlin up north.
At first I thought "why keep the poor bugger" and "bad move putting it on TV".
Then I realised what a hypocrite I was.
I have in the past and would happily in the future shot various "trophy" animals.
I'm not ashamed of that, nor do I try to shy away from the fact that fish die when we go fishing.
I was talking to someone the other day who was berating pig hunters yet loves fishing.
What's the difference?
Perhaps only that I knew exactly what was abouut to die when I held a rifle?

cheers,
Owen

choppa
23-12-2006, 08:31 PM
isn't it funny that whenever a pic or nowadays a video thats shown in the various forums,, it doesn't take too long before a comment is thrown that the author either has no idea under what circumstances the pic/video was taken,,,or has no idea on the topic,,,

i know of heaps of members that have been shot down in flames over pics,,,and it still happens on a daily basis,,,

i'm with you on this one kev,,the general population ""believes"" in what they see first,,then query their actions later,,

its like ""robbie williams"" lighting up a smoke,,,and good old mr beattie pays the fine,,,,OR what about the pop star PINK,,,backing PETA over muesling of ozzie sheep,,,and slamming everyone who wears fur,,,but is touring oz in early 2007,,,,,,,WTF??????

i have caught a few turtles during my time,,,and like yourself,,all were released,, with as much care as shown by yourself in your video,,,its not as if you were targetting turtles and releasing shovelies,,

BTW,,my thoughts on the young'un who caught the record marlin have already been posted,,, and like the record sharks he caught prior to this catch,,they were all simply ""dumped"" back in the waterways,,,

at least your catch found the dinner table,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,cheers mate

choppa

bidkev
23-12-2006, 08:43 PM
<snip>

We have as a society become so worried about upsetting every moniority or single interest group that we've stopped living.

cheers,
Owen

You've hit the nail on the head Owen, and that's the point I was trying to make. If we haven't already stopped living, we have at the very least become afraid to admit that we are :'( and all because of some folk who can only nurse their ego by thinking that they are in some way better and more humane than us fishos.

kev

kev

Reef_fisher
23-12-2006, 09:14 PM
Got it right kingtin don't stop living. Buy the way, Aboriginals still have dugong and turtle as part of their native rights, don't hear anyone causing a ruckass over that.

Fat_Chilli
23-12-2006, 10:03 PM
Kingtin - I agree with your comments, #it is starting to become a sad world, even on forums. Recently on the Jeep forum I admin a Jeep owner posted up a build thread documenting the stages of modification to his vehicle. Then all of a sudden after months of posts and before the vehicle is even completed and able to be driven on the road, a do gooder (read: ######) dobbs the Jeep owners plates into the DOT based on his own oppinions. The owner of the vehicle hadn't even finished the build (it was still on jack stands), but because his rego plates were available for all to see he got a visit from a DOT Inspector. The do gooder stated he dobbed him in because he was worried about the owners family safety and other road users, but who made him judge and jury without knowing all of the facts involved in the build. The end result was all good, but it cost the owner alot of heart ache for nothing, more expenses and nearly destroyed his families Xmas holidays, in the end the vehicle passed engineering and inspection. The dobber was subsequently banned from the forum. To much is speculated without all the facts being known, lets just jump to conclusions and shoot someone down. it's just all too common and easy these days.

Merry Xmas.

blaze
24-12-2006, 06:25 AM
lucky you dont go mutton birding Kev. My wife reckons my problem is I stand for what I believe in with to much voice at times. Really good post.
Cheers
blaze

Herefishyfishfish
24-12-2006, 08:20 AM
Good post :)

By the way, I get by-catch all the time...

weed, coral etc

for some reason I seem to hook more ocean flora than anyone I've seen before. Somehow... I always manage to get it in ::) Rocks and all.
Who needs scuba gear!?!?! ... I can see the bottom of the water on the end of my line. ;D

Ari

finga64
24-12-2006, 01:35 PM
In all honesty kev I thought you were doing us a service by showing the video.
It clearly describes and shows the correct way in which to deal with a turtle on the end of the line.
How many people think they're doing the right thing and cutting the line about 15-35m from the hook and then the line wrapping around something and the turtle either drowning or having some other sad and painful death.
Well done matey in my books.


Got it right kingtin don't stop living. Buy the way, Aboriginals still have dugong and turtle as part of their native rights, don't hear anyone causing a ruckass over that.
Mate, this has been a pet hate of mine for years.
I was doing an Environmental Science degree majoring in management and the blues I had about indigenous peoples catching turtles, dugongs etc was unbelievable.
I have nothing against indigenous people catching these animals for food. I just don't think using rifles, scuba gear, outboards and fiberglass or aluminium boats etc is right or fair.
If they want to eat them according to, or because, of their custom why not hunt them in the same way their ancestors hunted them???

cuzzamundi
24-12-2006, 04:24 PM
gday kev!

just saw the vid, and it brought nothing but smiles to my face! what a great set of sequences there! how could anyone think it was ammo for the greenies when it is a well known fact that by-catch is a given for any fisho. it's HOW WE DEALWITH these by-catches that determines the shape of how we operate, and your actions typified the care and genuine concern most fishos have for creatures they aren't willing to eat. i wouldn't even explain yourself mate, it's all there in the clip, just takes a reasonable and objective set of eyes to appreciate it. for those who don't - as your title suggests - society's leppers! i hope you and yours have a great xmas mate, and i WILL catch up with you sometime soon! take care and give em hell down the broadwater this time - IN the boat, lol.

cuzza

ps where was the vid taken (approx)

bidkev
24-12-2006, 07:05 PM
ps where was the vid taken (approx)

Thanks for your kind comments cuzza and also to all those who have responded.

Mate, it was taken at a spot at Amity banks that produces sharks and big shovellies in abundance, in water less than 12ft deep at high, and you can actually see the buggers take your bait.

I sadly have to say that it is a no-plane zone and when I used to fish it, I never once saw a rig come off the plane as it passed us by :'( Those actions are the kind that are likely to result in closures to that area if inconsiderate fishos don't observe the rules. That said, unless you have exact gps positions, and are operating GPS, it is easy to see how boats may enter the zone on the plane without realising it..........but also in saying that, that is no excuse, it is *our* responsibility to observe the law.

have a good un mate, and we will catch up someday.

kev

leavemealone
26-12-2006, 11:57 PM
WOW.....I'm astonished! Does I like fish not have the right to his opinion? Did you take his post as a personal attack? I agree with his post. I am not a greeny but I still did not enjoy the footage of a turtle being dragged to the boat with a hook in it's mouth on more then one occasion. You seemed to not only fail to move spots once you found that they were taking baits in the area but you also claim that it was taken at a spot at Amity banks that produces sharks and big shovellies in abundance, in water less than 12ft deep at high, and you can actually see the buggers take your bait. Kev.....I see the whole thing as not about you being right or wrong....a fair comment was made....just learn to swallow that not everything you do has to be perfect in everyone's eyes. In my humble opinion.

bidkev
27-12-2006, 07:39 AM
WOW.....I'm astonished! Does I like fish not have the right to his opinion? Did you take his post as a personal attack? I agree with his post. I am not a greeny but I still did not enjoy the footage of a turtle being dragged to the boat with a hook in it's mouth on more then one occasion. You seemed to not only fail to move spots once you found that they were taking baits in the area but you also claim that it was taken at a spot at Amity banks that produces sharks and big shovellies in abundance, in water less than 12ft deep at high, and you can actually see the buggers take your bait. Kev.....I see the whole thing as not about you being right or wrong....a fair comment was made....just learn to swallow that not everything you do has to be perfect in everyone's eyes. In my humble opinion.

Did you even bother to think about my post or am I such a bad writer thatI haven't got my, pont across? ::) ::
I stated that ILF had a valid point and that I am not the least concerned about him raising it, as in:

"No, I have no concern with regards to folk pointing out the dangers of the video, I was simply trying to highlight and create debate about just how threatened we are. Threatened because we are becoming overly concerned about how others view us and because of that, are becoming more secretive about our sport and appeasing to those who we see as a threat. Threatened, because we have to pause for thought when we simply want to display our fishing exploits and family fun. Threatened, because we are beginning to heed those who think it is immoral to teach our kids how to fish. Threatened, because if the public continues to be "politically indoctrinated" by a minority then the public will fail to see the positive aspects of our sport."

Indeed, in raising it he illustrated just exactly what I was trying to say...............he seemed more worried about "green opinion" than in me actually catching turtles.

As for your comment quoting me on sharks and shovellies...............they were the target species so why should I move on after accidental by-catch. Are we to move from a productive spot everythime we have by-catch? I made it clear that I no longer fish there once I realised that this by catch was not a one-off so I fail to see how you can take umbrage at this.

I say again, I have no umbrage with folk criticisng me or the video, what I do object to is the implication by minority groups or individuals that fishos are in some way less humane or conservation minded, and the "pressure" that this puts fishos under, to disprove this. We should be able to enjoy our sport without having to think about how our actions may engender public opinion to turn against us.


To conclude: If we are aware of our actions being detrimental to the environment, then we take action *because* we have a desire to, not because we are legislated against, or made to feel in some way inferior because of minority comments. Our actions should be guided by our desire to be conservation minded, not by the desire to appease those who fail/refuse to see the benefits that we derive from our fishing and who would gladly see our demise. We act becaue we *want* to, not because we are pressurised into doing so. Hope this is now clear to you.


kev

leavemealone
27-12-2006, 09:00 AM
Did you even bother to think about my post or am I such a bad writer thatI haven't got my, pont across? ::) ::
No Kev....your writing is not the issue. You explain yourself very well. Possibly the issue is I did not and still haven't read the complete thread.
I believe ILF's main point has been missed because he failed to elaborate further then one line which left his comment open to manipulation.

Our actions should be guided by our desire to be conservation minded, not by the desire to appease those who fail/refuse to see the benefits that we derive from our fishing and who would gladly see our demise.
This difference of view is what I gathered from this thread. I strongly agree with you that I too can defend all my fishing methods and have had enough of the talk about 'the greenies' eating into my great family past-time...but like ILF...I also am very aware that now more then ever we need to be very aware of 'our actions' and they need to be somewhat 'guided' with the understanding that those 'who would gladly see our demise' can and will use our failure to 'appease' them to their advantage. Ignorance is bliss but until you can convince some of the guys fighting against fishing to come out for a family fishing day on your boat to actually see what it involves then I think you need to show respect to those in the fishing community that do not want to be portrayed with a turtle hanging off the end of their line. The main point raised can go much further towards many other points such as the hope that fishing magazines use pictures free of heavily blooded fish to help the uneducated public not make assumptions......even though when I simply and humainly kill a fish to feed the family.....we all know it bleeds, or TV shows and ads can stop portraying fishos as dumb, laid back, lower income, beer drinking fools that are to lazy and dazed to ever put up a fight to any politicians or groups that want to take parts of our sport/past-time away.....even though the description above describes me....minus the fighting part ;D.

StinkyPete
27-12-2006, 09:11 AM
Unfortunately we hook things we don't intend to, for me its usually trees, boats or my deckie.... the shovellies are great arm stretchers.

Hope ya have a great New Year....

Pete

bidkev
27-12-2006, 10:36 AM
Did you even bother to think about my post or am I such a bad writer thatI haven't got my, pont across? ::) ::
<snip>
but like ILF...I also am very aware that now more then ever we need to be very aware of 'our actions' and they need to be somewhat 'guided' with the understanding that those 'who would gladly see our demise' can and will use our failure to 'appease' them to their advantage. Ignorance is bliss but until you can convince some of the guys fighting against fishing to come out for a family fishing day on your boat to actually see what it involves then I think you need to show respect to those in the fishing community that do not want to be portrayed with a turtle hanging off the end of their line.

I understand where you are coming from (I think) ;D and therein lies the difference between you, ILF, and myself. It is one thing to be "guided" or be aware of how they may receive our actions, but it is another thing to completely deny our actions or hide them, for fear of them being used against us. My family and I enjoyed a good days fishing with some unfortunate by-catch, which we tried to release with the minimum of harm....that is the true "message" of the video (IMHO). I refuse to pretend that these things do not happen..............we have unfortunate by-catch and fish bleed.

As an aside to this thread, I have witnesses who will verify that within 2 minutes of a turtle being freed, it was recaptured on another rod so the trauma could not have been all *that* great. These are the arguments that we should be putting forward not running and hiding from the implications of by-catch.

I refuse to lie, hide, or otherwise pretend, (just to appease a minority), that fishing doesn't suffer from unfortunate incidents that may be used against us. That would be akin to hiding say, a governments detrimental foreign policy in order to convince the public that *all* their policies were to the benefit of the voters..........you may not like a governments actions in one area but do you vote 'em down just because of that? Do you deny the "good points" that they have?

Yes, the capture of turtles may be viewed as cruel and avoidable via legislating against fishing, but does that imply that those who accidently capture them should hide the fact just to ensure the protection of their fishing rights? Is that not deceitful and dishonest..............as dishonest as those who manipulate the situation to suit their goals/aims?

Is it not more honest to admit our failings and attempt to ensure that we illustrate that we are trying to minimise our impact? Isn't that more productive in the long run.......to attempt to show that we are doing all to negate negative impact, rather than lie, and then when caught lying, to never be trusted again?

Think as to how the pro fishermen have been treated at this site, when they talk of by-catch minimisation...........I think the vast majority of rec fishos would *never* believe them, in view of the number of times a few have been caught lying/denying.

Without honesty, you receive no trust, without trust (from others) you are but a voice in the wilderness. Hiding the facts is counter productive. If I live in a world where the recpetion to my pre-cursor which states that I have done everything to minimise my detrimental fishing, is used with scorn, against me, and others, then I do not shrink and hide, I fight them and their dishonest manipulations. As I say, I refuse to be bowed/cowed by a minority who fail/refuse to see that my actions are not deliberate, or that I do not learn from them. I refuse to be dishonest.

I have shown how a days fishing used to be for me, and I have clearly stated that this is not now the case as I have learned from those incidents. I have been "open" honest, and honourable, not dishonest, deceptive, and manipulative of facts, as many of them are. I have not hidden facts and I will not stoop to use *their* kind of weapons (denial/manipulation and untruths) to fight my cause.

kev

Brett1907
28-12-2006, 12:34 AM
Kev, you have shown yourelsf to be a passionate and responsible fisho. I think it is great you reduced the amount of line left on the hooks.

After a thread in the saltwater section I did research on live baiting with baloons. I found that ZERO fish/marine animal deaths due to latex baloons have been recorded wordlwide. Any deaths involving latex baloons have been due to string attatched to the baloon. The latex is biodegradeable, and can also be passed by a fish/turtle/dugong etc. If you had left 30m of line on the hook the turtle would have surely died.

leavemealone, maybe you should read an entire thread before commenting? I can be a little vocal at times, but I read everything a person has postedin that thread before telling them what I think about their opinion. Sometimes I still get the wrong end of the stick, and I will admit it too... just ask Reef_Fisher.

Hey, Reef Fisher & Finga. That is a major S%$^T in my books too. Why do the indiginous inhabitants get to follow their traditional hunting regimes, but get to use the latest in technology? If you want to go kill dugong/turtles, use a canoe and spear. Why don't they have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us? Are they better? Aren't the dugongs/turtles they target under threat of extinction too?

Anyway, off the point again. Kev, nice to see someone sticking up for what they beleive, in an educated and thoughtful manner... warts and all. This is what we need in order to get our point across. Keep up thegood work, and good luck in your future endeavors.

Brett

Knackers
28-12-2006, 09:00 AM
Great entertaining thread covering #a wide variety of views. #All your comments have #given me #much food for thought and I have enjoyed several of the well thought out arguments. #As mentioned previously, how are our words and actions #perceived #by others and what are our obligations regarding them. # I believe these issues aren't just restricted to fishing, but to every aspect of our lives. The challenge for me is:
1. #Do I scrutinise every word and action I do, for fear of offending and being misinterpreted by others.
2. #How should I #be a positive role model,educator and example so those not so enlightened / knowlegable #may be encouraged to see there are responsible fishos.
3. Or do I just let it all hang out, and say and do what I want regardless of the consequences.

Do my words and actions connect and resonate with who I say I am? ie I am a #responsible recreational fisherman. Because of that do I have a greater #accountability for my actions etc.

The philosophers out there would probably say it's more of a moral or ethical dilemma that deals with the human condition and that is what makes us human.

Either way, thanks Kev for starting the thread and everyones input.
Knackers # #:D