Life time warrantys on rods

[Stuart]

O.k Im keen to find out what people think of these unconditional warrantys on fly rods. It seems to me that just about all the manufacturers are getting on the band wagon but not neccessarily improving on qulity. What happens when the rod explodes into graphite dust up some dirty back water in the middle of now where what good is your life time unconditional warranty then. I know its good for the customer thats very obvious but the rods must be made cheep and sold dear in order for the manufacturer to stay infront. I know of a guy who bought two fly rods here in OZ then went over to some small remote island and guess what both broke he then spent 1 week with no rods so he dosnt give a stuff about life time warrantys anymore. Whats your thoughts on the matter.

Stuart Mackenzie

[Chris_Dunham]

Stuart,

Not sure if I've picked up on your point but have a couple of ideas re rods and warrentys.

I'm not altogether convinced that having the life time warrenty thing has done us a lot of good long term. As I recall it was Reddinton who kicked it off in order to gain some market advantage. Perhaps we would have seen the blank companies develope along the lines of a more robust product if the LTW (life time warrenty) had not developed as a standard feature in the industry. The last truely robust graphite rod I had was the second generation Sage blanks from the early 80's.

If a blank is free of structural faults and is treated with respect it should last a fare old while. Had one RPL 590 last over 14 years which included the attention of clients, baggage handlers and only broke it through my own stupidity ::). Until that point I had looked after it thinking that it would not be replaced in the event of disaster - perhaps we (the fly fishing consumers) would be breaking a lot fewer rods if the LTW was not there :o

Cheers,

Chris.

PS. Had some good fishing with a clients Hexagraph (sem-solid grahite construction rod) and always thought that was a worth while line of development for a robust graphite rod.

[Stuart]

Chris, you're spot on, if the warranty was'nt there then people would'nt snap nearly as many rods as at present. Some of the best fly blanks ever built were the old Kennedy fisher blanks.

Stuart Mackenzie

[Steve_Ooi]

It’s an interesting question, and I suppose the simple answer would be yes, a warranty of any kind is good, lifetime or limited. But I suppose the underlying question is, at what expense does the warranty come at. Warranties in generally make people feel safe/secure, they tend to make the consumer feel that the product must be of a high enough standard for the manufacture to back it, and secondly they feel safe because if it an accident happens they are covered.
More than likely the safety blanket of a warranty also makes the consumer a bit more blase as to the care of the rod…
It a bit like what a professor once said about airbags in cars, “ that they should all be replaced with sharp steel spikes” , his line of reasoning was that the airbag has made drivers feel safer or indestructible , and thus they tended to speed more and drive more careless. And that if we had a sharp steel spike in front of us we would be extremely careful as to our actions…
Make one wonder if the “replacement cost of breakages” that companies put into place is installed to act more as a deterrent to “reckless rod usage ” than to actually cover replacement….
All in all, a broken rod up any creek is useless with a warranty or without.

Steve Ooi

[Bullwinkle]

Here's another question for yah's , a lot of these rods have up to $100 dollar turn over if the rod breaks because of a fault in it somwhere why should the consumer have to fork out on top of the money they paid for the rod? As everyone knows some of these brand name rods cost up to and over a thousand dollars. I'm not bashing the brand name rods I have a RPLXi that has been fished hard now for 7 years it just seems that you pay enough for the rods in the first place why pay more if it's not your fault. :)

[Toddy]

Gday Stuart,if a rod explodes up a creek in the middle of nowhere,what difference does it make what its worth or whether its got a lifetime warranty or not?Its bloody inconvenient.But when you get back to where you came from you can send it away and get a new one.Better than having to shell out a heap of cash.
Correct me if I am wrong here but isnt the trend with flyrods these days to be light?And does that mean thin walls on the blank?
A clouser on the end of a flyline goes very fast and high sticking will wreck a $200 flyrod just as fast as a $1200 flyrod.
In the end I think that people(myself included) pay the extra money so they get that insurance policy.And there is a fair chance that the rods will cast better as well.
Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Toddy

[Scott_Mitchell]

[quote author=Bullwinkle link=board=Fly&num=1014899921&start=0#4 date=03/01/02 at 21:11:07]
Here's another question for yah's , a lot of these rods have up to $100 dollar turn over if the rod breaks because of a fault in it somwhere why should the consumer have to fork out on top of the money they paid for the rod?

Bullwinkle: If you break your Sage - and it is confirmed as a factory fault - You only pay for the frieght with in Australia to get it to the Agents in Melbourne. If you acidentally break your Sage you pay a shipping and handling charge of $30.00 US and have the section replaced. When you consider that the majority of the rods are all up above $800.00 a $60.00 AUD charge for a new section which has been accidentally broken is good value ;)

And if your in a remote location and break your rods - No warrenty was going to help you anyway on the spot ::) But you'll get it fixed when you get home with less expense ;D

Regards Scotto

www.alpineangler.com.au

[Stuart]

Any blank and rod manufacturer in Australia must give a minumum 12 month warranty on there products, so the question is what happens if the rod breakes due to a fault with in the first twelve months you still have to pay the extra for the warranty even though by law they must replace or repair the product depending on what you the customer wants to do. Its only after the 12 month period that the extra money you have paid kicks in NOT BEFORE. So if your rod breaks in the twelve months period tell the manufacturer to stick the extra money where the sun dont shine and give me a new rod nothing they can do about it as its law. Its a scam that has cought so many out and its very wrong.

Stuart Mackenzie

[Luke]

If a twelve month warranty is a legallity in Oz shouldn't the distributor pay or have something set up with the manufacturer in accord with shipping or freight costs instead of the customer forking out more dollars. I'd really like to know how much these rods cost to produce and how many they would have to replace or fix before they lose out. Wouldn't make good business sense to offer these gaurantees without extreme compromise in quality.
Cheers Luke

[Stuart]

Thats spot on luke, you cant produce a rod of top qulity and sell for around $400 pluse offer an unconditional life time warranty. First the blank produced must cost less than $20 then components around the same. Some of you may be saying right now stu you have got your hand on it mate, well maybe so but I have been down this path and now the exact cost centers and there is no way on this planet that a manufacturer can ever lose on a life time warranty especially when the customer has to pay X amount for a replacment even with the extra money payed to replace the rod or section that is broken then the manufacturer is still making good money on that item, so the manufacturer will never lose money they will always be in front. Its a dam scam if you ask me and shouldnt be allowed considering they must offer a 12 month warranty anyway. If your rod busts in 12 months then you simply ask for a new rod or section and they have to, they can not ask for more money you should give it a go and save your self $100.

Stuart

[lordy]

I'm not sure if the $100 turn around fee isn't for 'no questions asked' and faster returns. I'm pretty sure Loomis replace rods that break through manufacting defects for free, you just have to wait until the rod is looked at.

[Maxg]

personally I think that the rod fracture percentage is not helped by the "it's gotta be light attitude to fly rod weight". If we used a more practical approach, I rarely use anything but 12 weights and I have yet to bust one for any reason. Try a more practical approach. Get a bit of weight, strength, under the belt and save yourself the worry.
By the way, what would you use if you were spinning off the locations you fly fish off. Or if you were after say, Spaniards, tuna, GT's what would you have in your hand. Cheers Max

[Maxg]

PS since most people con themselves that they can land anything on 9 weights, try the reverse approach, get a Temple Fork 12 weight, it feels like a 10 casts like a dream and you will be in a genuine no bust situation. You brain will not know the difference. VBG. Max

[shawn]

G'day Max
I'm inclined to disagree with what you are saying about the("it's gotta be light attitude to fly rod weight").I have seen a lot of very good fish caught on light outfits,weather its on a spin stick,bait caster or a fly rod.Have a look through any of the record books ( ANSA , IGFA , GFAA ).It might open your eyes on what is possible on light tackle.From a personal point of view I really enjoy the challenge of fishing with light gear. I find catching bass on a 12 weight a mega over kill where as using a 4 weight is a chellenge, the same goes for a lot of other speices , weather fresh or salt water.I know of quite a few heaver fly rods which have broken .Most of these have happened because of high sticking or are being fished with tippets which are too heavy for the rod .For the record I have caught Tuna on my 11 wt ,9wt and 4 wt. To date the 4wt has caught about 30 Tuna to 7 kg, and not blown up. The way I see it ,a lack of common sense breaks more rods than the weight of the rod.
cheers Shawn..... :o :o :o :o

[Maxg]

Well Stuart all this is esoteric really, but in 30 years of flogging flies I have seen a lot of good fish caught on light rods also, that is good for light rods. I have seen thousands depart the scene with hooks inserted because of inadequate tackle as well. For the record, I am not talking about fishing in holes filled with minnows. I know you cannot catch the world on 9 weights, just fish capable of being caught on 9 weights, which is a lesser quantity/quality than 12 weights etc. But depends on the skill of the guy holding it. Too often we believe that if "God" can do it, so can I. Wrong deal.
I have yet to be convinced that using a very low rod angle and beating a fish on the reel and tippet could be considered as using a light rod, or even fly fishing.
I have hung 20lb queenfish on a 5 weight, and it was not a very successfull operation. I started SWF using a 5 weight, caught a lot of fish, most too small to eat, which was, in hindsight, a total waste of time. Fun maybe but short of fillets on the plate. The quenfish exercise got me into 12 weights.
My experience on things big and little indicates that rods are either adequate for the task in hand or are not.
Some fishing breakages are from the "not" catagory. Others are from "high sticking" which is high lifting a rod to get power when the rod is critically short of power, or plain old handlining. You get nothing for nothing. Every action has a reaction, light means longer, means greater chances of rod breakage, and this is essentially what we are discussing.
But in the "guarantee" game, the up weight rods seem to fracture less than the under weight rods. Which might tell us something. But in this "rod busters" business I'm going on records of events. I, over a 30 years span, have not broken a fly rod in any fishing exercise. Which, since I'm using 12's generally, might mean something. Max

[Maxg]

PS Stuart, I know about ANSA, was in it from 1968 to 1986. Somehow I think it has changed a lot from those days. Whether it's for the better or worse is up to the believer.
I've had a few fish on record lists, and probabilities don't mean much when the temp is 40 degrees, the fish is big and it is three hours to a scale. Records get stuffed in Eskys at times. I have eaten a Spaniard or two, that were probables and threw one that was, on the rubbish heap, because it went off.
But one IGFA record that stands out is Rich's YFT on 8kg. I can look at that and say "wow".
Max

[Steve_Ooi]

Anzac thats great costumer service, i would like to see more service like that around... :)

Could one of the things that could be contributing to the breakage rate is the increasing attitude that if a rod can cast a mile it's great stick, and that more company are following that marketing trend and focus on making good casting rods and in return they end up with a poorer fighting rod...
Surely its a hard task to get the right balance of materials,tapers and soforth, to #make a rod that absolutely excells in all areas. At some point there must be trade offs in the overall fuction of the rod to make it excell in other areas..
The glass rods where as tough as nails and you could hang a buffalo off one, on the other hand they gave you arms like Arnold Schwarzenegger and where buggers to cast....
Let say we could increase the overall stiffness giving it better recovery, and reduce the weight and make the thing a lot lighter... here comes graphite..
Now we have a rod that responds nicely to the line weight, recovers fast and really punches that line out, why its so light i can cast it all day.. :D
But it doesn't take the abuse so well #:-/, especially in situation where "its give it all you've got". And in WA #those situation come up more than often...
Companies are still treading the fine line trying to build the perfect rod. Different epoxies, mixtures with titanium,Quartz all looking for better bonding systems, making the things lighter, the blanks thickness thinner experimenting with different tapers and so on.... hopefully one day they will find that utopia..
# #

Poony

[adrian]

Hi Stuart
Wehn one of my mates was up north late last year, his fishing partner, who will remane nameless shattered his band new $894 stealth fly on a big Queen fish while fish amony the pilons of the lucinda sugar jetty. When they returned to the camp ground in which the were staying, he rang through to the shop who you bought it of and had frieghted up to him. The shop was so concerned about this that they sent another replicka up to him, this rod was being used 1.5 days after he rang the shop, how is that for service and warranty.

[Maxg]

Well a fair guess is that blanks cost very ittle since they are machine rolled by the hundreds, and rods are fabricated on an assembly line, noone selling rods to a international market would produce less that thousands so the cost it only a small percentage of the retail price, which is buffered by the price of the name.
Take Temple Fork, it hasn't got a name, or didn't ,so rods are reasonably priced but are very high quality, so much so that just in the USA sage, loomis et al must have lost megabuks by this time. TFO offer a lifetime guarantee for $35 on a $180 us buk rod.
I think the test of TFO is that Ron Pearson has been beating a 12# to death lately, and has ordered one, or is it two.
This isn't a TFO advert just pointing out that you can get worthwhile guarantees on reasonably priced rods. For the record Ron says that a TFO has got a lockup point and if you push it, things go bust. Maybe we should be finding out what the lockup point in our rods is. might have fewer guarantee claims and fewer busts in the bush. Max