View Full Version : GsP

17-05-2002, 09:39 PM
Hi guys I'm putting this here because its a nice place. If you chop it OK, But It's my last word on ths subject. if you want more get the Book.

Truth should be allowed to be aired. Sometimes people who you think are wizards are wankers.

This is 2002 we are in, not 1860, the industrial revolution is over, long gone, technical expertise has gone ahead in leaps and bounds. Men have been on the moon. #We all know that, don’t #we.?
The weight of fly reels is not really a problem, in fact the amount of weight loss due to material removal is small, when you consider fly line and backing weight. You can shift the reel balance position on the rod by playing with the foot. You can also remove metal without breaking into the spool inner surface. You can also not bother, which should reduce machine time, preparation and polishing time and reduce costs for a better performance. #That should interest everybody. You could ask those manufacturers whom I have maligned ???? why they don’t do any or either of those things.
I was offered, by the system, a Tibor Gulfstream for guide price. $250 US. That is 250buks US and they make a profit. So why the big buks to joe blo. Makes you wonder about the price of Abels. Sorry Ted, but them’s the breaks.
Lets get something straight. I am not totally insane. #I am not an ex Taxi driver or pastry cook I have a brain, even at 72 years, and I’ve got some fancy head #Xrays to prove it as well. # I #worked #in the Space Tracking industry for 10 years, when ALL of those men stepped on the moon, and in the aircraft simulator business for 12 and then on the Jindalee #Over The Horizon radar for a few more. Technology has been my caper for a long time. This is technical stuff, my business. #I spent 3 years playing with GsP braids, doing many strange things. Technically well???, practically it makes fabulous SWF backing line if you #use it within its technical parameters. Apart from that I have been chucking flies into salt water since 1967 and I’ve caught a few fish. I have been around the traps. Fly fishing is not difficult., you know, any nut can get good at it.
But the tests. #Most abrasion testing is done on an abrasive wheel. I don’t have one, but to simulate a oyster encrusted rock in the ocean I chose to use a textured brick. I used a lot of care to ensure that the thing was done as evenly as possible, that each line was given the same pressure and tension. But before I started I had #to get over the fact that 20lb GsP braid fractured continuously as I placed it on the brick. It is a very fragile fibre but I found a spot where the line survived and used that. You can see the results published in the E Book. It is informative, because it shows that Stren Kevlar is at least 4 times tougher than GsP. My tests also showed that Stren braid is sold at knot strength, the spool is labeled at half the actual line breaking strain. That is being honest. You do not see much honesty in GsP braids, the exception is #Bionic Braid.
I used John Devitts IGFA machine for a few line tests, until he told me #that the load rate was too high at 400mm/minute. It needs to be about 100mm/min. Then I used a slow application of sand in a bucket. It worked. I tested the breaking strain of a number of lines and knots, no knots are 100% and DSM will tell you that anytime you ask.
I soaked glued splices #in my swimming pool for 3 days, then hung them up under 15lb of weight for 3 days then tested the things. #100% break test. I went through a lot different methods of connecting GsP to fly lines, trying to get a no knot no stretch workable system. All the wizz kids reckoned “you can’t do that, it will not work”, #It does, absolutely.
Technical fact, absolutely and positively. #GsP fibre is stiff, has a modulus halfway between #“S”glass and carbon fibre, it has a horrible critical radius. Know what that is. Bent it past that and you get fibre fracture. DSM publish photos of that stuff. That and the slippery characteristic #is what gives it a lousy knot strength. You should not put it into a situation where it is force bent around sharp edges. Like the sharp edges of holes in fly reel spools. There is nothing new in that, most reel makers know this but ignore it. They recommend you use 50lb braid to negate the problem. More expense for Joe Blo.
The reality is that the reel makers probably don’t care a hoot about you, or your expensive braided line.
There are other things, runner strike from those Bimini loop to loop connections, breaking fibres, when fishes belt off at high knot rates.. Then of course there is the relationship between 10kg tippets and the actual breaking strain of the backing system. #If it is 50lb and your knots are 80% it really is 40lb, that is before you start to worry about holes in spools or runner strike. If the cumulate effect of this is 70% the actual breaking strain is now 35lb, which means you are no better off than if you used a no stretch no knot Max System using 30BB, which breaks at 36lb. You have bought your 50lb stuff and its now no better than my stuff which is castigated by the heroes.. #But take that cumulative effect down to #65% or 32.5lb and you are really in trouble since 10kg is really 22lb. You have lost 17.5lb of backing strength and you are not going to get it back..
I have actual 50lb backing systems, really 50lb and really 36lb systems. The line tests show that my system B/S is actual line break. No reductions at all. This is not wistful thinking. Its been tested to death hundreds of times. I can and will, on request, demonstrate this anywhere any time. But I’m a nut.
The reality is that Gel Spun Polyethylene fibre is actually measured in "denier", or weight. It is a measurement of the fineness of silk or man made fibres and is equal to 1 gram per 9000 metres. That is 1 denier equals 1 gram per 9kms of a single fibre. The fibre extruded for high quality fishing lines needs to be within a specific range of denier, to keep product stiffness to a minimum. If the fibre is too heavy, high denier, it is very stiff and the knot performance, while normally bad, would be much worse. Generally, however, most lines of similar or equal breaking strains have similar denier and similar numbers of fibres in similar numbers of plaits.
As I understand it Peter Morses latest great line, has higher Denier fibres than say BB, it has fewer stronger fibres to achieve the b/s, which is why it is thinner, but the higher denier fibres make it stiffer, and technically it must have a worse knot strength and critical radius. #The higher the yarn denier number, the stiffer the fibres, the worse things become , knot strength, critical radius you name it. Have a chat to Don McPherson. #Lines like that have to be used in no knot spliced systems or the fibre fracture can be very severe.
Quotes, on this subject. #“The next time some Swoffer loses #half #a load of GsP backing line will not be the first”, Harro.. “The XFR and Abyss reels have no holes because they are designed to hold GsP backing” Thomas Michael Steelfin Reels. “We understand they don’t sell that well, the ratio is about 10:1. Holes to no holes. But they are the best”. Does Morsie think Thomas and Harro are some kind of radical ratbags.
I am not on anyone’s payroll, nor do I want to be. What can I possibly get for plugging “no hole” spools. Other than being beaten around the head by Wonder Wobblers. I get nothing for nothing. #Absolutely nothing. # Reputation, what’s that, some ego trip. Had one now too old to care. #Publicity, #who cares about that. #So Peter dumps on me, but who the hell is he. If it was Lefty or Harro I’d listen, but is Morsie #someone I should worry about. # It’s all a bit of a yawn really. I like to know exactly what I am using, how it performs and why it fails.
I am on the side of the anglers. The blokes who pay huge numbers of dollars for fly reels. I want them to get the very best available. Every time they hand over their buks. Isn’t this what a independent voice is all about.
Yrs, cheers Max

18-05-2002, 08:14 AM

I've been reading all this stuff for ages and have looked into it my self as have a few of my mates who have thier heads screwed on the right way.

The very first spool of the stuff i bought back when the revolution begun was flawed around rocks and gave way for no reason at any angle greater than about 90 degrees and that was over a blunt edge....anything more acute than 90 well..you know the answer.So i ,as you did decided to find out why ...and i know you tell the truth and i don't need to see you demonstate this to me because i worked it out long ago myself,that the fibre has a terminal fracture point much the same as a graphite rod..bend em too far and they'll break..it's not rocket science is it ...it simple maths, and if more people went to the trouble you have then the tackle industry might take note.

Keep up the good work mate.........there are some out there that can see through the bullshit and lies and mud slinging that has polluted most boards on the net and believe me max most of them listen to what you say.

Oh by the way, who am I ? No one, but i don't care who you are or anyone else is either ,speak bullshit and i'll stand infront of you and tell you so ,i don't care what name you use or how many tele shows or covers you've had ,speak reason and i'll listen.


18-05-2002, 09:37 AM
Max / Birdy,
I think I got it! Well explained, it seems pretty much a simple, fundamental fact now I've read all that.
I'm one of the Joe Blo's who can't afford holes in his spools
Max and sounds like I'm the better for that as well.
Pity some guys don't like facts getting in the way of them lining their own pockets.
Keep up the good work fellas.

18-05-2002, 09:56 AM
Reading that reminded of a funny saying I once heard, "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you". Max you might be a "radical" old timer, but that doesn't mean you are wrong. Your science is convincing. I'm not going to change my holey reel, but I'll think about it next time I get a new one.

Tell us about this splice thing/flyling backing join.

18-05-2002, 02:37 PM

I'll try and summarise your ramblings:

1. Holes in spools weaken the strength of GSP
2. GSP don't like abrasion
3. You have a system that doesn't loose any breaking strain from the backing to the fly.
4. You believe the way to go is a LA reel with no holes and 36lb BB using your system.

Have I got this correct??

Do you think BB is better than Dacron?? Is Kevlar backing the way to go?

Is Don and Harro having us on when they claim that BB is the best fly backing?

Check out his site http://www.harro.com.au/

His site boast BB as the "the ultimate flyline backing". I presume Harro stand by this statement, because its on his site. A few world record have been landed with 50lb BB including the Monster Tuna of WA. What is the best backing if BB isn't?

Does your system allow the changing of flylines? Some of us still use full length flyines, and change them regularly.

I think you have a bee in your bonnet about holes in spools and the limitation of GSP.

The combination of ported spools and 50lb has been sucessfully. 50lb BB over comes the limitation of GSP and ported spools. You are probably right to suggest, it would be better to use 50lb BB with a non-ported spool. Its probably over engineering, because the tippet should break before the backing.

50lb BB and ported spools may not be a perfect system, but it works for me. I enjoy using a good looking reels. I not like casting a heavy outfit. I can only cast the 15# for about half an hour.

Can you get me a Tibor Pacific with a spool2 at guide price??


18-05-2002, 03:50 PM
Hi Max,
Some info there to stir the grey matter. Please forgive my ignorance, I've read very few comments from you regarding spin or over head gear. I took note when you made the comment (elsewhere) about no holes on over heads & spin reels. It would be silly to assume you'd not used them, simply wondering if some of your comments could be taken over to the dark side.
The whole issue is fairly distant from me as I rarely get out onto fish that threaten my backing these days. I'm doomed to chase these slack jawed freshwater fish forever I think. The 10#s only gather dust at present.
Back to the No knots. Not so much that I'm a sceptic, more a case of I just can't convince myself to "not" have a knot in the line. The nerves would be a mess on that first solid fish I think.
I'm fully aware that GsPs around sharp object often leads to disapointment, however IMHO the pros of GsP in open water far out weighs the cons.

Wes, Don't matter as long as it looks good eh? Here's that Columbia Conspiracy again. Hope your good looking reels offer some consolation when you've got a short length of backing floating limply in the breeze from your rod tip. :P

Cheers All.

18-05-2002, 06:17 PM
I said it was the last, well Ok, having a no knot no stretch system that breaks at the backing line B/s is simple, very simple, and you can trust it absolutely, until you get reefed VBG. That stops GsP systems cold. But this thing of mine has a built in safety factor, you usually lose only the front bit of the running line, and the head etc. Rather neat that it does that. You only need to retirminate the thing, 5 minutes and you are back fishing. Well that was my practical experience after being reefed at Quobba.
Simply you get your backing line, and a 5 inch doll needle, and 120 feet of 15lb Gudebrod braided mono. Stuff the GsP up the mono braid until it comes out the top end. Before you get that far insert a mono loop into the braid to do the splice.
Ok then you tease out the end of the braid to loosen the weave, stuff it and the GsP through the loop and pull it through to make a slice. Then cut it off neat and pull it back into the mono braid a tad. secure it with one drop of Loctite 406 with a needle applicator. This is a very inert glue that does not glue GsP but it is very thin and wicks into the braid and glues to the mono braid. when it dries it locks the GsP into the splice with a shear strength of around 2500lbs. Doesn't come out, is reasonably water proof, like months of use. Then straighten this lot out, and give it a heave or two to get rid of twist whatever and glue it every 10 feet. Which stops it getting displaced when you retrieve line. If you reef this lot one of the funnies is that when you apply pressure the line will break in the first section after the locking point. If the head is jammed it might break first, but if the line goes it will be in the first glued section after the splice. Or after the jamed section. It does this every time. It did when I tested it until I was whacked with the thing.
Is BB the best, absolutely and positively. Why because it is braided here, VBG, and it has a tighter weave that most GsP braids which allows it to ghave slightly more stretch under stress. Most GsP braids have 3.6% but BB is up around 7% under stress.
Wesley I know all that, but if you get a tube of any brand super glue and put a drop on your Bimini, at the locking point, you will convert the 70 turn bimini into a 100% nuttin knot. All that effort for bugger all. You can just tie a uni knot iinstead of that Bimini, leave a long loop and glue the Uni., it's now a 100% loop knot. But Biminis are bad news in GsP, firstly you need to have over 70 twists, very tight, and the roll back has to be tight as well. It isn't a knot I use in GsP these days because it gives too much b/s reduction. It is about 80% b/s and your 50 is now 40, and your loop to loops are subject to fibre fracture which has already broken a couple of little fibres in there. Then you can get bad hits from runners. Its all too much for me, and was why I did the testing, and now I don't have those problems.
If you like pretty reels, thats your problem. Looks don't matter a stuff to me, I don't mind having the ugliest outfit in christendom, as long as it works better than yours. Which it obviously does.
It just goes to show that I am not alone in this place, there are other ningnong dunces out there, who ask that old hat Julius Summner Miller question,"This is absolute crap, why is it so" and get started in finding out, and end up knowing the truth.
On the other hand I have thought that maybe I'm a bit hard on reel guys because they have to provide for the people out there, who are obviously more into aesthitics than performance and this dominates the market. So we have holes. For being crass on that point I apologise, But regardless we should have choices, the right to forget looks and opt for the real reels rather than the expensive toys.
Getting a thinner braid that BB is easy, use thicker yarn, which will be stiffer etc etc, round robin again.
But 30lb BB is now 36 which allows for a knot strenght of 85%. You end up with 30.6 backing strength. It's getting late, I'm old tired and full of dinner. Cheers Max

18-05-2002, 06:29 PM
Fitzy, yep used 'em for a while, and yes it applies there as well. The problem in that holes have two sides, some are easy to get at and others arent but they have to be processed. A bit like the Floo Fly bird which flies in ever decreasing circles until it does a funny trick of flying completly up it's own backside. Ergo, you then have an inside out Floo Fly bird starting the circle again until you have a outside out floo fly bird etc etc.
Still there are options which we do not have, unless you ask.
Cheers Max

18-05-2002, 06:56 PM
WEs answers in order

1.. Yes absolutely
2 no it doesn't
3 no I have a system hat is no knot no stretch, loses no B/s from the fly line to the reel.The fly line could be less. I use lead cores, and who knows which is strongest in your system, the tippet or the rest.
5 No
6 GsP Dacron, Gsp is best, Kevlar has a few serious problems relating to higher critical radius, UV sensitivity, much rougher cuts like a very sharp knift. Good for deep water dropping. can be glued.
7 Don and Harro, no, have done, Harro's boast, absol;utely correct.
8. In my humble opinion, Gudebrod SST, but I have not seriously used anything but Platypus SuperBraid, Gudebrod and BB.
9 Full fly lines, what the hell is a full fly line. I thought they went out with blasdes for shearing. You are kidding Wes.
10. Bees, no mate it's not bees, it truth.
11. I think things depends on what people call successful, nothing can overcome the cumulative effects of Gsp, knots, loops, runner strike, holes in spools and people who use them.
12. A Tibor, not likely, chase your own cheapies, you obviously have some serious connections, use them.
13 Casting 15's, well it isn't that bad, had a Pac Comp 15 that I fished at Cuvier for a while, Builds strength, and keeps you fit. Actually I was 69 when I fished that pole. You can't be very fit. Soon I'm going to be waving a 15 footer, you should try that.
I try not to be boring Wes, or bored, but this is wearing me down. Kiddey crap, really. Max

18-05-2002, 09:03 PM
You certainly aren't boring Max. I've found this post most informative even though I don't understand it fully. I won't get into it as I don't know enough to say but as for space tracking-I love it and would like to know more maybe off the site- me as an amatuer observer(done a few courses and owned numerous telescopes up to 10 inch mirror-no Newtronian yet) A right to an opinion you do and my respect is yours. Good for you for saying what you feel. Can't afford the ducks nuts but suffice on what would probably be called inferior equipment and what suprises is it still works.
Cheers Luke

19-05-2002, 03:45 AM
mate i'm with you there,all very-very interseting....
lots of variables there to consider. :o
am looking foward to hearing some more on the subjects raised here.
i'm sure that there are some more people out there that have something to contrubit to this discussion.
Hookin,Brett :)

19-05-2002, 08:41 AM
Luke, it was the most interesting period of my life, from 65 through to 75 when the Carnarvon Station closed. Was around for all of the Apollo's and the other things. The point about that period is much the same with GsP, it's the little things that can kill you. A balls up ground test killed 3 guys in the space program, a lousy little motor in a LOX tank nearly killed three guys in Apollo 13, while they were headed for the moon and a rubber O ring that was used a few degrees outside its technical parameters knocked off Challenger. 10 people. The Russians killed a lot of guys with little stuff ups.
You can't ignore the little technical things. You just can't say, those things are not a problem, because eventually, the boom gets lowered.
You take GsP knots, you tie a good knot and get a fish on and you have to pull like hell. The line is slippery, and it shifts under stress, tightens up the knot, and squeezes those fine little fibres, that have a critical radius because they are stiff, that little technical thing you can't ignore. They fibres break, the knot strength goes bloop, and you watch the object of your dreams swim off with your dream shattered. I prefer to fix the little things first. The big one last.
Cheers Max....and thanks.

19-05-2002, 12:02 PM
Max, I don't quite follow you backing system. These things can be a little hard to explain in writing, no matter how simple in reality. I doesn't sound any harder than making a braided loop, and I can do that easily enough so I really want to get this worked out.

1. Must take ages feeding 120 feet of BB up the guts of the gudebrod.

2. I'm going to need to see a picture or two of how it is finished off and joined up before it sinks in.

I'm keen to give it a go.

19-05-2002, 05:49 PM
Ah Lordy, you got it, it's just a braided loop, greatly extended.
Yes it takes a while to stuff the mono braid and to fool around with it, getting it straight, getting rid of internal twists, it's 120 feet long. You have to use a basket keep it off the ground, or the innards of boats. Shoots like one of those Kaintuk turkey hunters, is as strong as the braid you stuff up it, has the same stretch as the braid and not a knot.
Pic is the braided loop construction. It really doesn't matter what b/s the mono braid is, it's just the termination carrier and running line. Thinner the better. Gudebrod is probably best, Cortland is waxed. Just glue the splice, GsP and all, with one drop of Loctite 406 use a needle applicator. Its pretty well impervious to water, at least 3 days of clorinated immersion and has a huge shear strength. If you use full lines, just shorten the mono braid to make a small termination loop. Very versatile thing. You can make it 20 feet for cucking big things at billies or 200 feet for very long rods. Most versatile running line invented. VBg.
I have a thing here, Gudebrod SST 45lb stuffed up 240 feet of 15 braided mono. took 2 weeks, pain in bum. Max

19-05-2002, 05:55 PM
PS, I forgot. When you straighten it out, glue it, one little drop every 10 feet. At the end use a flex glue just to stop the end fraying around. Don't glue the end. Is that OK. Max

20-05-2002, 03:11 AM
Cool ! ;D
good stuff max,now even i can follow that.... hehehehehe.
Hookin,Brett ;)

23-05-2002, 02:58 PM
Hey max, got some loctite 406.

I've only got 35 & 50lb gudebrod though, no ultra thin stuff. I'm not sure I feel like stuff a lot at the moment, but it did occur to me to do a 'spliced braided loop' on the end of the BB. Best of both worlds, strong 100% knot for the BB and only a little stuffing to do. One advantange is the the BB would have a hard time cutting the braided look of the fly line if it was inside a braided loop of its own.

One question though, if a granny knot and 406 is 100% as you stay, why not just do that. Maybe not a granny knot but something similar. That way its 100% strong, the same stength as the stuffed braided loop version.

25-05-2002, 11:00 PM
Ah well think of the number of "How to knot" books that would gather dust on shelves, and reputations go bust and all that research time down the tube. Couldn't have "just a grannie knot and glue" to get out of the locker.
But seriously if you follow the one knot one fish theory, any knot that strikes your fancy could be given a run.
When it comes to straight fishing, not just fly flogging, one should consider what people do, and where they do it. Like on bouncing boats in the middle of the night, isn't a place to tie 90 twist biminis, even with battery powered hair braiders, nor is on a beach in mid winter in the rain.
I think the idea that you can get a strong knot, which you need, in GsP by using glue is practical and effective.
A Uni knot and glue is 100%, 100% of the time. Max