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roz
16-01-2007, 03:48 PM
I'm building a rod which is 3kg to 5kg med taper 5' 6"", to take an eggbeater.

Are single foot guides the way to go?... does it actually matter?

Also, should I underbind if I do use single foot guides?

I do prefer the look of under binding aside from anything else, simply to add some colour, but in some cases it's not essential.

Roz.

Stuart
16-01-2007, 04:31 PM
Yep, that's fine Roz. Don't care what people say about under binding, how it adds weight and so on. If you can weight that little then you should be working for NASSA. I under bind all my light weight rods including fly rods. So go for it Roz. By the way single foot guides are also fine.

Stu

roz
16-01-2007, 08:56 PM
Phew...

Thank you God

wheezer
17-01-2007, 10:25 AM
no probs using single foots, i use them on 6kg barra spin rods no worries. underbinding i guess is a personal thing. IMO totally unecessary from a structural point of view on just about all casting and spinning rods. If your rod breaks due to guide foot rubbing on it then either your blank is faulty/cheap and nasty or there was improper preperation of the guide foot. So i only underbind if someone specifically asks for it.

Stuart
17-01-2007, 10:48 AM
Wheezer

On the contrary mate, the resin and carbon used in today’s blanks is quite corrosive in its self. Under binding stops the reaction between the two. Carbon by nature is extremely conductive and can give off a very low charge in saltwater conditions. Because you have metal touching on the blank it will eventually corrode/rust. How many rods have you seen with rusted guide feet? Once this occurs you have a fine abrasive rubbing between the blank and guide foot. I have stripped rods were no under binding was used, only to find that the abrasive nature of the rust has almost gone through the wall of the blank. I have been building rods for more years than what I care to remember, I have listened to all the debates and ideas on his very topic, yet no one has clearly understood what I have just described. There is way more to rod building than just opinions and theories. Cheap blanks rely have nothing to do with the topic, it’s what their made from not how much.

Stu

DR
17-01-2007, 05:14 PM
i have to agree with Stuart. i have always underbound guides, even if it is only just enough for the guide foot to sit on..
call it paranoia but i always feel there is some kind of friction on the blank from a guide that is under load, & that, in my mind, can eventually cause the blank to fail.
ceases to amaze me the number of upmarket rods that have no underbindings.

it has been a while (long while) since i seriously built a rod, but to me the basics are still the same..

wheezer
17-01-2007, 05:36 PM
to me not much point building a light graphite rod for casting then slowing its response down by underbinding all the guides. underbinds certainly have their purpose for some applications. as far as rusty guides, yes i've seen it. but with proper guide foot preparation, binding and epoxy (brand of epoxy makes huge difference to cracking) then rusty guide feet should not be an issue. i know its not in my builds...i have stripped down rods i have built years ago and have not seen any sign of blank damage from guide feet directly contacting blank

i have been building rods on and off since early teens so over 15 years..maybe not as long as some but enough to form my own opinions on how i like to build a rod...and thats what they are, my take on things..not gospel. i believe that alot of rods are built a certain way (eg. underbinds, foregrips and full length rear grips on light casting rods) because thats how rods have always been built so the old 'if it aint broke, don't change it' rule has been applied. but the beauty of building a custom rod is you can innovate, try new things etc. some stuff works, some doesn't...once again JMO

Lucky_Phill
28-01-2007, 12:34 PM
I am building a similar rod to Roz, except mine is a 2 - 3kg . I'll take note of the above info, saves me asking, but I have read ( here we go, Phill's reading...... Yes Stui,,,, I do read ), that a Locking Wrap will assist the single foot guide from ' movement " or am I reading too much or worried ?

Phill

Bearclaw
28-01-2007, 01:52 PM
Phil,
I've done a test with guides using the basic locking wrap, the Forhan locking wrap and none at all. All guides bent and rings popped, the only guide that came out was the guide with no locking wrap, the ones with locking wraps the blank failed before the guide came loose and then the wrap was basically intact with a section of blank attached. Even though the guide without a locking wrap failed early it still took more punishment than it would have got from any fish. I still use a locking wrap myself but IMO a well prepared guide foot which is wrapped correctly won't fail from any punishment a fish will dish out to it.

Lucky_Phill
28-01-2007, 02:26 PM
Thanks Myles.

Any fish that I catch won' t be " punishing " enough to make an impression on the guides, anyway. ;)

Phill

Stuart
28-01-2007, 04:38 PM
Been doing a locking wrap on single foot guides for years, the yanks are a bit slow mate. Mr forhan or what ever his name is hasnt invented any thing new. Kind of like the Fuji laying claim to reversing the stripper guide on spin rods, been doing that for years before that come out as well.

Stu

Bearclaw
28-01-2007, 07:01 PM
Hey Stu,
I wasn't saying he did, just trying to bring attention to the different ways of doing a locking wrap.

Stuart
28-01-2007, 07:08 PM
Yah, I know mate.;)

Stu

Bearclaw
28-01-2007, 07:15 PM
Stu, I suppose you would love a dollar for everytime someone has said you have put the guide on back to front.
My first fishing rod had it done back in the early 70's but I think that was a genuine mistake.

Stuart
28-01-2007, 08:24 PM
Not wrong mate, if only we could charge 10 bucks that would be my early retierment for sure. Might be looking at selling Precision Rods soon. Getting a bit over the whole rod building thing, spent way to much money and time on developing exclusive things, to much time spent behind the lathe and to much of my life building rods. Will sell every thing as a going concern along with exclusive blanks and other things as well.:'(

Stu

cammac
20-02-2007, 09:47 PM
Stuart

Are we talking rods with cheap guides here that have this reactive rusting going on?? or does this occur with Fuji stainless guides as well ?? doest it depend on the percentage of carbon/graphite in the rod? Im surprised to hear of this problem as a lot of upmarket factory rods dont have underbinding on there light rods and certainly on nearly every fly rod for all guides except the two strippers!

Also what is the idea of reversing the stripper guide?

roz
21-02-2007, 09:52 AM
Would just like to add something here.

I've replaced many guides over the years on different standards of rods, mainly mine. I've always underbound, and 99% of the time I have used cheap fuji guides. I have never seen any rust on the feet of these guides when covered with binding and epoxy.



My guides usually die because the whole lot gets bashed around in my boat.

Matt_Campbell
21-02-2007, 10:31 AM
Having built rods commercially, I think that with rods under about 3kg, you can do away with underbinds. The guides used on these rods are usually quite small and flexible, allowing the guide feet to flex with the rod. A small piece of felt or masking tape under the guide feet can give you some insurance against blank damage but of the 100's of light spin and baitcast rods i made, none broke due to damage from a guide. As for rust - if you epoxy over the bindings correctly, the points where the blanks meet the guides should be covered by the epoxy, excluding any air and therefore corrosion. I underbind all rods from about 4kgs and up as the extra weight is irrelevant given the actual weight of the outfit. NEVER underbind guides on fly rods as it dampens the action and adds weight.

Just my 2 cents

roz
21-02-2007, 09:57 PM
Hi there Matt,

I would have to disagree with you, imo the underbind looks tidy if kept plain and simple, with perhaps a tiny trim band.

I also think lighter rods bend a whole lot more than rods under 6kg, probably with
the exception of a heavy rod with an extra fast taper. As for guides that flex, I don't know what degree of flexability a metal guide would have... I could be wrong

Stuart
21-02-2007, 10:29 PM
In all my years of rod building I have never come across guide that hasn’t rusted, except that of Titanium. Titanium is one of the most corrosion resistant materials we can use on rods. In having said that if you should leave a hook attached to the guide then the guide will go a nice shade of green. You can’t always judge a guides quality by its price tag. Hell, even Fuji is well over priced and some of those guides aren’t cracked up to what they should be. All Fuji guides eventually rust no matter what you read in mags stating other wise.

I have built well over 20 thousand rods in my time as a rod builder “Documented” and I can state here for the record that no matter how good you think you are at coating rods, you will never get the coating to bond 100% between rod blank and guide feet. This is were the water penetrates and things start heading south. It may take months; it may take years, but trust me when I say it will happen. I have striped rods from year gone by to see rust under the guide feet. I have also striped rods that haven’t seen their first birthday to find rust. As rod builders, it’s our duty to prevent or just slow down this rust problem, the manufacturers are at fault here not the rod builder.

Stuart

Matt_Campbell
22-02-2007, 08:32 AM
Roz,
Its fine to disagree - I was just stating an opinion. It depends on what sort of rod you have. Why dampen the action of a $400 graphite blank with too much binding? Light rods have specific actions and you significantly alter these actions by underbinding. If you're not concerned then underbind away! I prefer to keep the action of the rod as is and not have a "clubby" top-heavy rod because I've added too much weight to the top haplf of the rod.

Stuart
20,000 rods? and "Documented". Did you work for a big brand, pumping out off the shelf rods? I was a humble custom rod builder. I was more concerned with quality, rather then quantity. My belief is that is better to maintain the action of the rod and keep weight down on quality blanks, therefore no underbinds. As I stated before, a piece of masking tape or felt between the guide foot and the blank is ample protection. Remember this is for rods 3kg and lighter.

Matt

roz
22-02-2007, 09:02 AM
hey Matt

I wouldn't normally speak on Stu's behalf, he does that quite well, without any prompting or help from me..ay Stu.

He is also a HUMBLE custom rod builder.

I've just re fitted my 2kg bass rod with guides and a nice butt wrap, I used the old guides again.

It's a light graphite rod. The underbind has made no difference what so ever. After all, the over bind covers the same area as the underbind, and some use two layers of overbind, I use one, as well as the 2 to 3 coats of epoxy, or more depending on your preference.

As for "keeping the weight down on quality rods".

How much do you think around 12 meters of Gudebrod A would weigh?

r.

Volvo
22-02-2007, 11:42 AM
Allrights ya got me in too::) .. I would have to agree that underbind isnt needed , especially with fly rods not that i'm a guru with these type of rods nor do i think its necessary with the lighter rods as YES it can tend to spoil the rods action IF one is that particular with a rods action..
Unless ya pay the $$ for guides they will eventually show signs of rust, dont matter what ya do to em....
have paid attention to some Custom Rod builders who are even particular with the thickness nad type of resin used to prevent spoiling a particular rods action..
Otherwise ive missed sumthin along the way:-[ ...
Cheers

Stuart
22-02-2007, 01:38 PM
Matt

I did contract for rod company’s years ago, like every one on this forum, we all need to eat. Did this for many years along side building reel custom rods, not the mass produced version I was building at the time. Custom rod building is fine if you can get a big enough customer base and regular enough work to make it viable. Quality is all I do and most other part time builders, that’s why we make rods isn’t it? The topic of should we or shouldn’t we under bind certain rods is a topic that has been covered so may times yet so many miss the one issue concerning the fact why rod actions are effected. If we took two identical blanks using single foot guides, we under bound and over bound one and then we just over bound the other, what would happen? Well I think you would have trouble finding the reel difference between the two.

Most if not all people think it’s the under bind that’s dampening the action, well I hate to bust up some ones party but it’s not the thread that’s dampens action, it’s the guide foot on its own. Next time you’re holding a guide, try and bend the foot in your hands, good luck and I hope you don’t need any stiches. Guide feet are way to dam thick for the size and weight they are required to hold. I think once some of you have tried this little exercise you should under stand what I’m talking about. As for putting felt or masking tape under the guide foot in some attempt to stop rusting and so on, I think its wishful thinking. The masking tape will last approximately one or two casts before the foot pierces through. I have seen this method and tried it as well, does nothing mate.

Rod coating’s can have an effect on the outcome of weight and action dampening. There are a few issues here that are nearly always over looked. When I look at coatings I always ask the manufacturer for the solids content, that’s all I want to know. Don’t care what the wholesaler says, in my experience they know very little to nothing. Ask a wholesale what the solids content is and they will do blab bla blab la, what ever mate. The other issue is rod coating thickness, some people go way over board and trey and dump enough on in one go, why?, I don’t know.

Stu

DR
22-02-2007, 03:16 PM
The other issue is rod coating thickness, some people go way over board and trey and dump enough on in one go, why?, I don’t know.

Stu

COST!!!!
because most do not want to pay what the 'real' cost of building a rod. so most 'custom' builders cut corners where possible.

as for rusty guides.. i agree, they pretty well all rust with time,no matter how well you apply the finish..

underbinds, i hate how all these expensive rods don't have them, but i don't care anymore, I used to always put underbinds, purely for peace of mind..
how often do you see a rod with unessecary underbinds that are twice as long as the guide foot?? i feel that these will affect the blank a bit once the finish is applied, & it looks ugly.. i think we all did it at the start thinking it was decorative..:P

my 2 cents

roz
22-02-2007, 03:46 PM
WooooHooooo they're comming out of the wood work!!!!

It's a battle of the titans!!!

The under binding I'm referring to only just edges out from the foot of the guide by a minimal amount,. I'm not referring to light fly rods.

Hey Stu, I hadn't considered specific gravity.

r.

Matt_Campbell
23-02-2007, 08:19 AM
it’s not the thread that’s dampens action, it’s the guide foot on its own.
This is my point Stu. You obviously need the guide foot. What you dont need is extra binding thread. These days with the "new"design rods that have more guides, underbinding the guides on light rods and all that extra weight, particularly near the tip, will ruin the action of a light (1-3kg) rod. Similarly, when coating the binding with epoxy, only use enough to cover the binding and make sure that it soaks through to the guide foot. Any way, you can only build what the customer wants. It so happpens that some of my customers were very specific about their light rods and most (if not all) requested no underbinding on expensive blanks. It doesn't matter with crap blanks - put as much rubbish on as you want.

Anyway, not much point in prolonging the argument. Roz, you asked for an opinion on whether you need underbinding for your rod. My opinion is yes for a 3-5kg rod. On a 2kg bass rod my opinion is no.

If you can still find one, pick up a copy of Ian Miller's Rod Crafter. Perhaps reading this publication will give you anohter perspective.

Matt

roz
23-02-2007, 04:29 PM
thanks Mat,

I've formed my opinion with a bit of outside help from the guys here, but at the end of the day I am the one who has to be happy with the end result. Have learned never to say "never". Thanks for your input, looking forward to hearing more from you.

r.

Bearclaw
24-02-2007, 09:37 AM
Now the next issue, CP or Not to CP. No seriously. Good points are made on all sides from pro to the newbie. This is what forums are all about. I personally don't underbind my rods, only stuff I do is heavy saltwater gear. (which I try to stay away from). I also use titanium guides and spend several hours preping my guide feet. First thing that we need to remember is corrosion requires oxygen, whether we underbind or not, the finish is there for several reasons and that is to hold the wraps together, protect the wraps from damage and to fill any voids in the thread and around the guide foot. It is not an epoxy glue, it has a minimal gluing strengh (Stu can fill more in on this as he has spent years developing his own finish, I heard they use it to fix the space shuttles windows). Anyway all finish will crack to some degree over time and all we can do is do our utmost to prevent this, underbinding is a good way and a very well prepped guide foot is another, but can everyone custom builder spend that much time on a set guides when a customer is already in shock over the price of the rod. I'm lucky I have a full time job to live on so I really don't make money on my rods for the amount of time I put in. How anyone could make a living I don't know and commend anyone who does.
I have had the pleasure and luck to have many people teach me from Stuart through to Doc Ski with many inbetween, these guys all have different ways of doing things, some say there way is best and the only way, I however take a bit of everyones veiws/techniques mix them with mine and use them in building my rods, that's what makes a Bearclaw's Custom Rods not a Doc Ski rod etc etc.
One thing I have learned is that we all do things different and I'm continuing to learn, so keep it coming.

Hey Roz you might be able to teach me that girly crosswraps stuff.;)

Stuart
24-02-2007, 09:53 AM
Your spot on Myles, every one is different and every one has different ideas. As for coatings, well that’s a whole other story mate. ::)

Stu

roz
24-02-2007, 12:09 PM
Hey Roz you might be able to teach me that girly crosswraps stuff.;)

I'd be vewy vewy careful Myles, Roz McKenzie might just be a pseudonym. I could really be D. P. Clemens...with attitude.

cheers d.

roz
24-02-2007, 01:14 PM
Just out of interest, I've taken some photos of old guides.

As you well know they are the el cheapo guides.

The larger ones are from my old ugly stick, which was my all purpose trolling rod, bottom bashing boat rod. I used it with an old star drag alvey, with line that was much too heavy for the rod.

I know the line is 24kg, and I think the rod is around an 8kg.

Those guides were on there for a minimum 7 years, the smaller ones near the tip cop most of the punishment, so I was always replacing.

I save a set of guides like these as emergency spares.

Since we are having the debate on underbinding and rust, I thought these pics may be of interest.

You will also see a couple of much smaller single foot guides.

These have just come off the rod I'm rebuilding, I shortened the rod a little and used the same guides again, with the exception of a new tip and the next guide back.

The guides on the this rod have been there for only about three years.

In both cases I've underbound, and as you can see not files back the feet. Now days I do.

Also both rods are used in salt water. It is very hard to see detail, but there is minimal or no rust on the feet of these guides. You can however, see rust on the exposed parts of the guides. I havn't cleaned up any of the guides.

I'm not trying to make a point, just thought it interesting.


BTW the latter is graphite.

DR
24-02-2007, 02:06 PM
Just out of interest, I've taken some photos of old guides.

As you well know they are the el cheapo guides.

The larger ones are from my old ugly stick, which was my all purpose trolling rod, bottom bashing boat rod. I used it with an old star drag alvey, with line that was much too heavy for the rod.

I know the line is 24kg, and I think the rod is around an 8kg.

Those guides were on there for a minimum 7 years, the smaller ones near the tip cop most of the punishment, so I was always replacing.

I save a set of guides like these as emergency spares.

Since we are having the debate on underbinding and rust, I thought these pics may be of interest.

You will also see a couple of much smaller single foot guides.

These have just come off the rod I'm rebuilding, I shortened the rod a little and used the same guides again, with the exception of a new tip and the next guide back.

The guides on the this rod have been there for only about three years.

In both cases I've underbound, and as you can see not files back the feet. Now days I do.

Also both rods are used in salt water. It is very hard to see detail, but there is minimal or no rust on the feet of these guides. You can however, see rust on the exposed parts of the guides. I havn't cleaned up any of the guides.

I'm not trying to make a point, just thought it interesting.


BTW the latter is graphite.

Roz, on the feet you file down so the thread goes on more smoothly, you can give the exposed bit a quick lick over with a nail varnish ( only thin) seals the guide & dries hard so no exposed metal to start to corrode..:thumbsup:

roz
24-02-2007, 02:43 PM
That's a good idea.

The only reason I believed we file down the feet of a guide, is a cosmetic, in other words gives as nice smooth profile to the finish. Is that it???

DR
24-02-2007, 02:47 PM
That's a good idea.

The only reason I believed we file down the feet of a guide, is a cosmetic, in other words gives as nice smooth profile to the finish. Is that it???

i do it mainly so i can/could bind straight up the foot without stopping, & it involves less time burnishing the thread to close up any gaps where th end of the foot is..
there is a lot less time involved in grinding down a box of guides that trying to close up gaps in the threads... cost again..

Bearclaw
24-02-2007, 04:50 PM
Roz you will be surprised on how much you can take off a guide foot before it reduces it's strength. Also the underside of the guide foot needs attention, this is gets overlooked, a chainsaw file works wonders here so the feet sit flush with the blank.

cammac
27-02-2007, 03:33 PM
All Rite Guys,
I dont know what your doing to your Rods to have stuffed guides on them?!!!
Ive just checked all my "custom built" rods made by myself and guess what - bugger all signs of Rust!!!!! The oldest Rod would be about 25 years old !! I use Fuji guides and i try and look after my rods!. Fuji as i understand use Stainless and as i understand its stainless that is more suited to salt water applications.
As for underbinding light rods I dont ! and dont believe its necessary! Oh and i have never snaped a rod under normal fishing !!! some would say he doesnt fish - well surprise i do!
With an overhead rod there is no danger of the guide tip diging into the rod because it bending away from the guide - with a spinning rod i dont really think it would happen either. How many ultra light fly rods snap from no underbinding!!
I prep my guides by filing them down so as the thread will climb onto them smoothly them blunten the tips a bit and take any burs made on the edge.
Stuart Im still curious about this reactance between the carbon and stainless guides what percentage carbon rods is this a prob?? Ive got a 20y old Daiwa Carbon Reflex spinning Rod with no name guides... guess what - Perfect!!
By the way I also live near the Ocean where salt is in the air - its a miracle!!!

roz
27-02-2007, 04:51 PM
I am about to make my FIRST purchase of stainless guides from a US supplier, they will be going onto another boat rod I am building...YA just can't have tooooo many fishing rods!!

Will be interesting to see how they stand up along side the el cheapo guides I normally use.

As I've already stated, my rods get very rough treatment, I only have two rod holders attached to the transom of my boat for trolling, so everything else that doesn't fit into the ledge under the gunnel, stays on the floor of the boat.

So I think those guides in the photos above, have well and truely paid for them selves.

To be honest one of the main reasons I am buying these guides is visual appeal, on the other hand I can't believe the cost.

A set of el cheapo guides bought here is not much different in price to the guides I am getting from the US.

I remember DR telling me time and time again, the savings are worth the effort. Why is rod building gear costing us so much.

Which leads me to another question.

Why do items like that cost so much more here, I would rather support Australian retailers even though the products are not Australian made.

r.

cammac
27-02-2007, 05:08 PM
Roz,

As I said b4 and understand to be correct - Fuji guides are made from Stainless !!! someone can correct me if Im wrong and i would doubt if they were not made from a marine quality grade! I think you shud definetly underbind your rod if you want it to look pretty but then again if you trash your rods .... I wouldnt bother!!!

roz
27-02-2007, 05:28 PM
Roz,

As I said b4 and understand to be correct - Fuji guides are made from Stainless !!! someone can correct me if Im wrong and i would doubt if they were not made from a marine quality grade! I think you shud definetly underbind your rod if you want it to look pretty but then again if you trash your rods .... I wouldnt bother!!!

cammac,

If the fuji guides in the photos are stainless, the standard of the metal is quite low.

I don't underbind my guides to make them look "pretty", you appear to be suggesting that.

And I said, my rods get rough treatment, and I explained why..go back and read again.

I DON'T TRASH MY RODS, as you have suggested. I respect my gear a whole lot more than I respect your spin on my post.

r.

cammac
27-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Quote one of the main reasons Im buying the guides is for visual appeal!
Quote 2- my rods get very rough treatment!!
Quote 3 - I like the appeal of underbinding aside from anything else!
Whatever!!

As i said Ive got rods 20+ years old with hardly a sign of rust - and yeah ... Bully for Me !!!!:o

roz
27-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Geeeeze....here we go again

the visual appeal of what ever guides I choose, has no connection to the reasons for under binding.

BIG, big difference to very rough treatment and TRASHING. My rods have to travel in my smallish runnabout with virtually no storage.

I actually catch good fish on them, so I must be doing something right...go and have a look lol!!!! woooHooooo!!!!

Stuart
27-02-2007, 06:15 PM
Carbon is an electrical conductor and a very good one at that. Put it in a salt water environment and it becomes even more conductive. You won’t experience a problem in most cases because most carbon blanks are painted with either a solid colour or a clear. I don’t get my light weight spin or even fly blanks painted, just sanded to a 2000 grit on the sanding wheels. In this case it’s best to under bind to stop the small charge interacting with the metal. Sanding or filing a guide foot is mainly to stop cracking from the big jump up. It’s best to feather the leading edge of the guide back to around ¾ rather than just grind away at any angle. All guide frames rust no matter what brand they are. The best material I wish they would use is Magnesium alloy, tuff as, wont rust, light as hell and will last 10 life times, the stuff is reasonably priced as well.

Stuart

Lucky_Phill
27-02-2007, 08:51 PM
OK, my 2 cents worth........ that's worth about 20 Rupee !!!!

There are many grades of stainless steel. I haven't been able to assertain the grade that Fuji use yet, but will. I doubt there are using Marine Grade..... they don't measure stainless in the way. I suggest the marine Grade refered to hereabouts would be 316. The guides are more likely made from 304 or less.

But I will find out soon.

phill

Lucky_Phill
27-02-2007, 08:59 PM
OK, I have done the digging. Still doesn't make sense. According to the Fuji people, they make their own stainless Steel, therefore I cannot compare their product to a Standard. Below is their speil !!



Fuji uses only the highest quality stainless steel in their frames. They use "S-4" Stainless steel material. This stainless material has been specially developed by them to meet the high standards demanded by fisherman and rod builders seeking the best. When tested at Fuji's laboratory against a competitors frame the following results were recorded:

89.2% Harder
66% stronger tensile strength
over 10 times larger in the stress corrosion cracking test
2.9 times stronger in yield strength
48.5% stronger in amplitude permeability
54.2% stronger fatigue strength
27.5% stronger in elongation All this basically means is that Fuji's "S-4" Stainless steel is:

Harder,
Stronger,
Corrosion Resistant, and
Impact ResistantS-4 stainless...... ?

phill

Owen
27-02-2007, 10:48 PM
"S-4" is a meaningless nomenclature. Especially in the absence of the standard that "S-4" applies to.
In welding wires (steel) S-4 designates the silicon content when using the AWS standard.
It may well do in this case too, but without knowing the carbon, nickel & chromium levels in the steel, it's "stainless" capabilities are indeterminable.
It is interesting that fuji puts the term in inverted brackets.
The claims that they are more corrosion resistant etc etc may be true, but "S-4" is pure advertising hype AFAIK

As a matter of interest, I have never seen any tutorial on working/shaping guides that cautioned against using carbon steel wire buffs or iron bearing grinding wheels for dressing stainless steel guides.

Strange when everything else is taken to the n'th degree

hooked.up
28-02-2007, 07:31 AM
Hi Guys,
thought I would get in on this discussion.
Th biggest danger to a guide that I know of is the grinding wheel. Grinding the feet of the guide alters the metal and invites rust, an aluminium oxide wheel reduces this problem dramatically.
We are custom builders in Tas. The only ones I think. We hand file every guide foot and finish by smoothing off with wet and dry. The guide feet are prepared both on top and underneath to ensure a smooth finish.
That is one of the reasons custom rods cost more, it is about the time spent in the extra preparation and layout of each build, plus using top quality components to start with.
Also as Bearclaw said we all have our own way developed from what we have learned over the years, a custom builder is like everyone else and builds in a way that works best for him. That means we never stop learning and evolving, after 35 years at this game I learn something just about every time I get onto one of the forums.
Just do your best with your project, it will teach you something for your next job.

Paul

cammac
28-02-2007, 07:50 AM
Phill, Thanks for the info. Ive been using Fujis on My rods for 25 years with no complaints. I reckon theyre as good as anything out there . If by now they cant produce a good product theres something wrong and no I dont work for them!

Stuart, thanks for your explaination and i respect it, but I cant understand why the top shelf rod makers factory rods dont underbind on light weight carbon rods if there were issues. Most of their top rods are bare graphite finish. Surely they dont want warranty claims/dissatisfied customers?

As for this grinding thing - Im a filer only because i have the time and dont have a bench grinder or a Dremel. I guess the extra heat a grinder makes on the guide may change the structure of the metal slighty. If you were really worried dont touch the guide and leave the proprietary coating on it, harder to bind thou. I believe the epoxy finish should seal the bare metal ok!

S4 - does a high silicon content in steel make it more corrosion resistant?
Fuji claim no corrosion for their Titanium framed guides!

regards Cam

Owen
01-03-2007, 06:57 PM
Cam,
The S4 I refered to in relation to the silicone content has no bearing on the corrosion resistance, but does have an effect on how the weld flows and what happens to the impact properties as you weld over other welds.
As I said, it's the (lack of) carbon, and the levels of chromium and nickel that are important in stainless steel.

Titanium is as close to corrosion free as any metal available. Certainly in the environment of a guide. It is also very very light, but bloody expensive.
Really interesting to machine too.... Doesn't chip at all. You get one giant piece of razor sharp spaggetti.

The grinding wheels you use should be iron free. As for under the guide feet I'm planning on getting a diamond plated steel.
The sister company of the one I work for sells out of the ordinary abrasive products and diamond & CBN gear.
They should give an almost mirror finish and leave no residue.

Lucky_Phill
01-03-2007, 08:17 PM
Interesting Owen,

I have a Diamond impregnated steel ( knife sharpening ), but if is almost flat. the cost was about $80. Is this something that you are talking about ?

Phill

Owen
01-03-2007, 09:30 PM
Very similar Phil,
Except I am talking about something more the size of a chainsaw file and round.
I suppose if you wanted to get really fancy you could turn up a piece of steel the same taper as an "average" blank and have it diamond plated.

They are available in pen sized units about 8mm diameter and 125mm long. Most have a couple of grooves for sharpening hooks. I keep one in my tackle box to give my knives and hooks a lick.