buying a new motor

[dazza]

hi all,
chasing some opinions
we are thinking about re-powering the haines hunter 680 sf

the million dollar question is to go 4 stroke or 2.

the 4 stroke is obviously the duck's nuts, but the sales people recon the new generation 2 strokes are getting close.
has anyone had any reports or own a 225 evinrude fict 2 stroke?
the comparisons with the 225 yamaha and honda 4 strokes are pretty good, according to the evinrude web site

what about the yamaha 200 hpdi?
is the 200 enough to push the haines hull? or will it be working its ring out.

currently runing a 225 efi 2 stroke suzuki. it is a great motor, which leads to the next thing are the new generation 2 strokes any better than the suzuki?
or should we keep the suzuki?

are we better spending the extra g's for a 4 stroke?
a 225 2 stroke (HPDI or FICT) is about $21000 and a 4 stroke is about $27000
6 grand is alot of fuel, and the new generation 2 strokes are getting pretty good ecomony.
obviously prop size and weight distribution has alot to do with performance as well.

i don't think we will gain anything by putting a straight 2 stroke on as the suzuki is a bloody good motor

any thoughts would be much appreciated.

cheers
dazza

[basserman]

sure the 2stokes are getting closer to the big 4strokes but still they are very lacking in the economy when trolling they still want to suck that fule down fast so if your going to go trolling a bit i would defintly think more along 4stoke in my mind thats where they come into there own
also have you considered a suzuki they are the lightest and most compact 4stroks going and after driving my mates 50hp on his 4.1 polycraft MAN are they quite!
if you do troll belive me it woun't take long for you to save $6000 worth of fule and more
insted of trolling and spending $160 for a full days fule it will be more like $60 for a full day thats only 60 trips before the extra is paid for!

[Jeremy]

wasn't there an article in Bush'N'Beach a month or two ago covering just this very subject? The outboard mechanic type did the article. I think he sang the praises of the new optimax motors in the large hp range from memory. Be well worth having a read of said article, and then maybe contacting said author for more detail.

Said Jeremy!

[craigie]

G'day Dazz,

It's certainly an interesting time to be buying an Outboard Motor, so many good brands with 2 & 4 stroke options.

Was faced with the same dilema just recently. Decided that the new Hi-tech 2 strokes were producing the goods and ordered a Optimax Merc. The economy and emissions are very similar to a 4 stroke but you get that pure 2 stroke grunt out of the hole. Also not as heavy on the transome.
I'm not real sure but Merc 4 strokes and Optimax's may be very similar in price ??
The optimax also had the option of the 'Smart Craft' digital Gauge, provides all vital info at your finger tips like, Speed, Fuel Economy, Fuel Range, Compass, Revs, speed, and many others.

From what I have read the new 4 stroke suzies are very good. Now available in 225 and 250 hp 4 stroke models.

Happy Hunting,

Craig.

[dazza]

hi all,
thanks for the replies,
still looking at a few options.
wish i could try them all on my hull for a few months then make a decision, no such luck
weight is a big consideration as well, and the 2's aren't much lighter now.
cheers
dazza

[craigie]

Hi Dazza,

Comparative weights between 225 mercs are as follows -

225 hp 4 stroke - 265 kg
225 hp 2 stroke Optimax - 225 kg.
225 hp 2 stroke (standard EFI) - 218 kg

Not sure how these weights compare to other brands but 40+ kg is a substancial difference in the mercs.

Cheers
Craigie.

[jethro6641]

G,day Dazza,

I have a Signature 650F and I would imagine it would be fairly similar to your 680. I recently fitted a 225hp Mercury Optimax with Smartcraft gauges. The total cost fitted with a five blade stainless prop was $23,400.00. I have been getting fuel economy around the 20ltr per hour mark at various speeds. As for the using more fuel at trolling speed, this is not the case. With the smartcraft gauges you can actually set the troll speed you want and the motor will stick to that speed. As the motor is computerised it only uses the oil it needs therefore smokey old two strokes are a thing of the past. This also helps with the excellent fuel economy.

These are top motors and I could not be happier with my chose.

Drop me a pm if you would like any further info.

Cheers,

Jamie

[craigie]

G'day Jamie,

You say your Opti has a 5 blade prop :o :o
I would be interested to hear the pro's and con's of such a thing as I take delivery of my 115 Opti next week and I'm yet to make a decision on which Prop to put on it ??

20lt an hour is excellent economy for a 225 hp :o :o

Sounds like we have both made the correct choice, Merc's have finally lost the Tag as 'Black Anchors' !!!

Cheers
Craig.

[jethro6641]

Hi Craigie,

Mate the 5 blade prop gives unreal out of the whole acceleration and seems to apears to perform extremely well. The prop cost an additional $180 if I ordered the prop the same time as the donk. Would have cost close to $2,000 if I bought it alone. The only negative thing I would say about the 5 blade prop is as my trailer is drive on drive off, if I do not get it right the first time on the trailer, there is very little response in reverse. Have learnt to deal with this and otherwise cant fault it.

Hope that is of help mate.

Hoo Roo,

Jamie

[davo189]

Hi Dazza,

I really do have to agree with Jamie - I have a 2250 Mustang on order and I have chosen to go with a Yamaha 200 HPDI 2-stroke.

My previous boat which I sold before Xmas was powered by a Merc 115hp EFI 4-stroke which was an excellent motor - smooth, super quite at the low end and very very economical on fuel. Definitely no quieter above 4000rpm though. I didn't find the 115 slugish on a 19ft glass boat which surprised me a bit at first (perhaps EFI made the difference.) On the down side of the 4-stroke was the additional weight and the additional cost of oil & oil filter when servicing.

Why have I decided to go back to 2-stroke on my new boat? A number of reasons - weight 60+kg less than the 200 4-stroke, reduced service costs, lower purchase price ($5000 less) and better acceleration. Emissions and noise have very definitely been addressed in the new 2-strokes and I was very impressed with the test in another boat (although it was a 150 HPDI) there was no smoke and virtually no 2-stroke smell at all.

I have had Mercury for the last 20 years and looked at Mercury Optimax, Evinrude Fict and Yamaha HPDI. Evenrude are coming out with a new E-Tec series but not available in AUS in the 200 hp range till end of 2004. In my judgement it was line ball with Merc & Yamaha and I chose Yamaha because of technology, weight and price. Yamaha have some very nice technology in the HPDI/VMax series which includes a really nice Fuel Management System with digital display.

Whichever way you go, a fuel injected 200hp 2-stroke on a 680 Haines should do the trick. If you do consider 4-stroke, then I would look at the 225hp's.

The sad part - still have to wait another 6+ weeks for my boat to be ready.

Cheers, Davo.

[dazza]

hi fellas
thanks for the very informative replies. much appreciated [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

davo,
what is your hull weight?
i guess my concern with going back to the 200hp hpdi is that it will be working its ring out.

i have just got the new fuel tank made up. reduced it from 380 litres to 220 litres. (still have a spare 90 litre tank that i don't use, up the front) this has enabled me to move the tank further forward, getting a bit of weight off of the arse end.

i have heard ( someone feel free to correct me) that a 4 stroke lifespan is about 3000 hours, compared to a 2 stroke lifespan of 1000 hours?
i guess with rebuilds etc you could keep something going forever!
will the 2 stroke be getting tired around the 1000 hour mark,and need updating when the 4 stroke is still running sweet?

haven't had a good look at the merc's yet. everyone who has one is pretty impressed.
dosen't really worry me what brand it is as long as it is right for my hull.
i think the options are
1. keep the suzuki 225 efi that is currently on the boat and is a bloody good motor
2. suzuki 225hp 4 stroke
3. yamaha 200 hpdi
4. yamaha 225hp 4 stroke.
decisions, decisions
cheers
dazza

[MICHAELG]

Dazza

I reckon sitting around a fire at mission sat nite and couple of drinks, might help you with your decision.
gibbo

[dazza]

hi gibbo,
might see you up there. fishing the bribie interclub this weekend so will be out and about. hopefully see you up there
cheers
dazza

[jethro6641]

Dazza,

In regards to the difference between a 200 hp and 225 hp, I think you will find there is very little difference in price between the two. For my thinking you are better off going for as big as you can that way you will not be revving the ring out of it all of the time.

As for the lifespan of the 2 strokes, with the introduction of computers and the like your outboard mechanic can tell you by looking at a computer how you have been treating your motor and can identify problems easier. You would have to think that this would have to assist in increasing the lifespan of the motor..

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Jamie

[dazza]

hi jamie,
i agree, i don't want to be working it hard all the time as it will only lead to trouble in the long run.
the diagnostics available these days is pretty amazing, all of which i guess goes to improving the life of the motor.
what speed does your 650 cruise at and what rev range does it like.
our current motor does about 22mph at 4000rpm- the motor loves it, we can do that weather it is flat as a tack or pretty lumpy- she just cruises along happily. took awhile to get the right prop etc to get the motor running at its best.
with the new fuel tank i am also getting a navman fuel unit, it will be interesting to see fuel consumption in different conditions and running speeds
i don't want a rocket, but something practical that will suit my hull
cheers
dazza

[jethro6641]

Hi Dazza,

Top speed for the Signature is about 72 Klm/hr @ 5500rpm. The best rev range seems to be around 4200 rpm and from memeory that sitting on around 30mph. I have had my new motor since november and have only put 25hours on it as my Signature is now stuffed (Cracked hull and every stringer stuffed), so it has been awhile since I have used it. My new boat is a 7 mtr LOA Plate Alloy which should be ready in about three weeks.

I just followed advice from people I knew when I bought my donk. I guess at the end of the day listen to people that have and use the brands of motors because the salesman is only going to try and baffle you with bulls@#t.

Good Luck.

Jamie

[aido]

Dazza,

In regards to the difference between a 200 hp and 225 hp, I think you will find there is very little difference in price between the two. For my thinking you are better off going for as big as you can that way you will not be revving the ring out of it all of the time.



i agree going for the biggest you can afford / fit, but generally
the 150/200/225 motors are identical powerheads, just the
bigger h.p. models rev harder. so the big h.p. not revving
its ring out may be a misnomer.

[dazza]

jamie,
they seem to like the 4200rpm or thereabouts.
probably going with the 4 stroke, ecomomy and lifespan of the motor are big positives. i agree the 2 strokes are getting close but not quite there YET, i have no doubt one day they will be.
it is now a toss up between yamaha and suzuki. have to check out weights and power etc.
with the suzuki, bit worried if they will be around in 10 or 15 years. awhile ago they stopped importing into australia.
cheers
dazza

[dazza]

next issue,
is a 4 stroke going to be luggish.
i have been doing some reading and a bloke called andrew norton has done alot of tests.
my concern is that the 225hp 4 stroke yammie will be a bit slow out of the hole, (not good for bar crossings)
has anyone gone from 225 2 stroke to 225 4 stroke?
what are your thoughts?
gearbox ratios and fuel injection are also important factors in performance, my mind is spinning.
with such a big outlay i want to get it right and i don't trust the propaganda supplied by the manufacturers
cheers
dazza