Yamaha Problems

[webby]

Have a 130 yam, done 200hrs. Since the motor was purchase brand new, it has been serviced regularly by two southside yamaha dealers.
Have also had dramas with the heat sensors, once under warrently (they were replaced), the second time late last year . This too was supposely rectified by a Yamaha dealer.
Well last monday they went off again, but only when doing 4000rpm +, so crusised around on 3500rpm and no dramas.
So boat goes in wednesday differnet dealer again, some of the dramas they found were caused by sand in the water pump, but this was not the sole cause of the problems.
So they advanced to the thermosats, and it seems the guts had been pulled out of them, but by which of the two pervious yamaha dearlers i had used cannot be proven.
Now came the big dramas, they pulled the head off one side, to check further, and found the head ports were chock a block full of this gooey silicone type substance, which was blocking water flow and also effecting the sensors.
When asked how i flushed the motor out, told them with fresh water first through the self flushing system on these motors, then ran a quanity of Macks Flush through the ears, to finish off the flush, the flushing ran for some 15min plus.
they said they had never seen this stuff clogging the heads up before, and suggested it could be the macs flush reacting to the salt through the ports.
This substance is going to be 'Tested' to verifty if the Macks Flush has been causing all the dramas with the cooling system.
$1000 dollars later, and a container of gooey stuff, my rig is back.
Stay tuned if all these dramas have been caused by the Macks flush, if so and others are using it, what is it doing to your motors also.
regards

[clutter]

Webby,

Regardless of the outcome of the Mack's, I'd be writing a letter to Yamaha Australia and telling them the story also as far as the thermostat goes. Pity you can't identify the culprit though.

Clutter

[Heath]

One of them Yamaha dealers wouldn't have been on a corner would it :-X :-X :-X & the other named BOB :-X :-X :-X

Webby,

When I had issues with our 70hp a few years back, when it was pulled down there was no salt build up what so ever in the donk. It had done about 400 hours & used at least once per week. Only ever flushed with fresh water using the muffs.

IMO these flushing agents or additives are a waste of money.

[Kerry]

.... the flushing ran for some 15min plus....

Apart from the other issues if that's 15 minutes on muffs/garden hose, ouch.

Both dealers probably should be considered at fault, one obviously doctored the thermostat and the other didn't mention the fact either.

Cheers, Kerry.

[NQCairns]

Mate thats a poor state of affairs, some motors esp the older ones have slits or holes directly above the rear of the cav plate that is the exit for thermostat water, so on muffs a person can visually see them open or not when the water starts flowing, possibly Yamaha kept up the tradition considering they were direct omc copy. Anyway i look forward to your advice re additives. nq

[webby]

I see the Professor of Technology @ Electronics from the Central Coast, quoted 15min + for flushing as "Ouch", with no remarks as to why this Ouch was stated, Why is this so and if i can humbley ask, what is your expert opionion to the flushing requirements. ??? ???.

Further to the findings, Brent at Yatala Yamaha, also took photos of the heads and the substance clogging them, along with photos of the remodled thermostats.
regards

[Big_Kev]

RAFLMAO at Webby and Kerry.

[Big_Kev]

What do you know.
I just read the flushing section in my manual and I realise my motor has one of the hose attachments for flushing the cooling system.
I thought it was a waterproof crankcase breather.
Guess I better laugh at myself now. (folks are dumb where I come from)
It says to run the water through for 15mins for thorough clean.
Doesn't mention the muffs bit.
Cheers Kev.

[bigbrian47]

is that 15 mins cold flush or with engine idling?
recently changed thermos in my 98 90hp jonno mechanic said
it was like new internally
i usually give it several minutes on cold flush then a few mins
running on either muffs or in a drum. motor is only used in saltwater cheers brian

[searaider]

Hi Webby ,
I can understand how you would be pretty pi#*ed off with the poor service .
I have got a new 150 HPDI Yamaha that has 40 hours up & always run it on the muffs for at least 10 minutes .
Even though it has the fresh water on the back of the motor I have never used it .
I always thought that you needed the heat in the water to breakup the salt buildup ?
I will be most interested to hear what the Gooey substance is .
Not trying to tell you what to do , but if it was me I certainly would be advising Yamaha of the slack service .

Peter
Searaider 2

[skippa]

G'Day Webby,

I was always told to run them until they were 'warm', as this allows the salt to be removed more efectively. I've got a 115 2s Yammie, and usually run her at idle on the muffs for about 10 mins max with fresh water only. She's only used in salt, done 326 hrs and still runs like new. (Thanks to Dons tune up).

I can certainly understand why your pis... following this thread with interest.

Cheers,
Skippa 8)

[Kerry]

Webby, most outboard fixers who have seen their fair share of impellor problems would probably tell you running on muffs isn't the most clever thing to do at all.

However in many cases it's the only way and with domestic hose pressure normally being what it is the less time on muffs the better and 15 minutes is way way over minimum time and even more so if anything (and that is anything above ~ 750rpm) above idle.

;D And ya don't even have to be a rocket sciencist to realize that a pump that can pump more water than a garden hose can supply (even at low revs) is going to probably have some problems, just that some will probably have problems sooner than others.

CHeers, Kerry.
# #

[Hagar]

Webby
Interesting goings on with your motor for sure. Will be interested to hear the outcome of the findings on the gooey substance if you can post them here when you find out. I have been using Macs flush ( same brand ? ) since new and the galleries were clean as when I changed the thermostats recently. Will stay tuned.

Chris

[Lucky_Phill]

I suspect that Gooey substance is all those bloody ' soft plastics' being tossed around these days.

Yes, Brian, the results of all this will be interesting.

As Kerry says, at least the last Dealer you took it to is at fault.

Phill

[damons33]

the flushing system provided is better then muffs! look at the pressure of the tell tail! so in the manual it says to use the flush system for 15minutes- simple no noise no pissed off neighbours and a salt free motor! too easy

[Glind]

When I purchased my Yamaha 50 4 stroke, the dealer said to flush for 15 minutes with the muffs. I did as he suggested as these people are supposed to be the experts and you are supposed to listen to them. Especially when the outboards cost a squid. It was said that it takes that long for the engine and all of it galleries to get sufficiently hot in order for the fresh water to clean all remnants of salt out. No problems so far, touch wood.
Tim

[SNELLY]

HERE IS MY #2 Cents worth

Webby,

RE - Thermostats - In my Old 70Hp OMC's ( I had three of them over the years ) - The thermostats were removed - I should say the inner part was at least - The outer left for some resistance - This would have been done when you mentioned overheating at higher rev's - I had no problems without thermostats and in our climate they are not really needed

Kev,

As Tim said my Yamaha dealer also told me to use the muffs as not running the engine does not allow it to heat up. The main use for the flushing system on the side of the outboard is for boats that are permanently in the water.

SNELLY

[craigie]

Webby,

No wonder your pissed :( A 2 year old motor that gets slapped with a $1000 bill through no fault of your own, hell I'd be Spitting and throwing more punches than an Ashgrove Politician !!!

Hope there is a happy ending to this one for you.

C'mon Yamaha, come to the party and help sort this out for a loyal customer.

Regards
Craig.

Bloody expensive 'Schoolies and Tuna' we caught that weekend as it turns out ;)

[Paul]

Through our shop, we have seen a lot of problems with flushing agents over the years, one of which was Macs.
We actually spoke to the manufacturer, informing them of the problem, as we actually sold the product for a time. Their response was that once you have run the macs through the motor, you have to run fresh water through it for another 10-15 minutes, to flush out the macs. We actually had a fairly young suzuki 140, which was absolutely chock a block with the dreaded white goo. I have formed the opinion that the benefits are fairly debatable on these products
Regards, Paul

[Hagar]

Webby
Without leaving anyone open to any fear of legal kickbacks - what was the final washup with the goo clogging upour outboard . Did it get identified as probably from a residue from a flushing agent that rhymes with jacks or was it not determined ?

Chris

[Lucky_Phill]

I don't think Webby has the results from the Uni back yet, or word from Yamaha.

He will definatley keep you all posted re this !

Phill

[mackmauler]

Why dont you keep us posted Phill, you sound like Webbys media advisor ;D

[webby]

I might as well sit back seeing i have a ???manager ??? 8)
But on the serious side, so far a letter of disappointment re the quality of service and repairs received from a couple of yamaha dealers in the big city, plus a sample has been sent to yamaha, no reply as yet.
Secondly Q.u.t. also has a sample, with findings forthcoming.

regards

[Lucky_Phill]

I'm in for 10% Brian ! ;D

Phill

[webby]

Hi Well further to the story.
So far Yamaha have reimbursed me 2/3 rd's of the 1000 $ and a few services.
Some test results on the substance found in the heads, has pointed to the substance being off a ceramic nature, further testing is still being done.
Some of the conclusions and not valadated yet, are that the Macs and silicone from sand has under heat turned into a ceramic substance, which caused it to fuse or coat the ports in the head thus blocking the flow of water and causing the sensor to trigger, this is still be verified.
Both QUT and Yamaha are still testing.
Just though id let you no of the finding so far.
regards

[NQCairns]

Thanks for that I for one was wondering.nq

[fwwardpl]

Hey guys, what happened about the OUCH, was it just a problem with Tank water pressure or wot lol
Rider

[SeaHunt]

Kerry said "And ya don't even have to be a rocket sciencist to realize that a pump that can pump more water than a garden hose can supply (even at low revs) is going to probably have some problems, just that some will probably have problems sooner than others. "
There is no way an outboad needs more water than what comes out of a gardon hose at pressure to stay at running temperature. As long as there is some water around the rubber impeller to provide lubrication the only other consideration is overheating the motor. Just like the one in your car, it is not a positive displacement pump. Until the thermostats open there is a lot of slip in the pump, and they are happy spinning away even if the water is going nowhere. Even at 5000 revs with the muffs on my motor does not provide enough suck to stop the muffs leaking (50 hp) and thats with the tap only half way on. On flushing additives , a long time boatie told me to put a squirt of Morning Fresh dishwashing liquid down the hose after it has been flushing for five minutes and keep flushing for another 5, said he did this for 10 years and the mechanic said it was the cleanest motor inside he had seen. You can even collect a bucket full of nice warm sudsy water to wash some of your oter gear in.
Have you had a goo analysis update yet Webby?
If it turns out to be Macks and you followed the directions on the bottle I would be putting in a claim for reimbursement to them.

[Kerry]

Well anybody who wants to run an outboard on muffs/town pressure at half tap any more than idle and especially above 1500 revs, well it's your motor, your cheque book and your decision.

Feel free to run your motor on muffs however you wish.

Cheers, Kerry.

[JB]

I'm confused, why would manufacturers give you "muffs" and a standard hose connector fitting if they didnt provide enough pressure??? Surely the company has taken into consideration that not everyone will flush for exaclty the same amt of time, and thus build thier motors / muffs to accomodate that varience??

Anyways interesting topic webby despite ur misfortune!

[SeaHunt]

Actually they don't need any pressure at all, they suck the water up , that's why they can run them in a drum. All I am saying is the garden hose provides more water than they can suck in, even at revs.

[Kerry]

Even if run in a tank/drum the water level MUST be high enough to cover the pump housing as it's simply not a case of covering the water intake and expect the pump to "suck" it up.

Like if every town/residence has the same garden hose water pressure, what rot and really this advice that it's alright on a garden hose at revs is bad advice >:(.

Cheers, Kerry.

[FNQCairns]

This new search function is fabulous:)

Any final updates Webby??

cheers fnq

[mark221263]

I had a 70hp yamaha and a mate also had the 140 v4 which is basically the same as your 130.

I was told by Stones cnr marine to pull the cylinder head off evry 5 years or 200 hours as they have a habit of building up salt deposits to the extent that you will get overheating.

Anyway, my 1992 70hp was 7 years old when I got it with only 90 odd hours on it so when I got to about 150 hours a year latter I removed the cylinder head and cylinder head cover which sits on top of the cylinder head. The entire water jacket cavity was full of salt. It almost looked like silicone but was hard and salt like when you scrapped it.

I soaked it in a bucket of hot water and gave it a good gerni and a bit of a scrape here and there with some timber paddle pop sticks and it came up like new.

This followed with a new head and cover gasket and all was fine. I owned the boat for another 5 years and sold it to a mate who has now had it for another 3 years and all is fine.

I bought if off an older guy who was very fussy and the whole rig presented as new. I also was fussy with maintenance and always lushed with freash water for 10 min after every trip so the amount of salt build up was amazing.

When my mate bought his 17ft rum runner with the 140 yamaha I told him the story. He opted to leave things ad see how it when for a while as his boat was also in good nick and ran well. What he found though was that if he ran for any length of time at 4500rpm or above within a few minutes the temp alarm would sound.

We pulled the heads and covers off and the water cavity on each head was exactly the same as my 70hp.

This was not a hard service to do if you have a basic mechanical capability, a manual and quality torque wrench. Make sure you have every thing spotlessly clean or you will have a premeture head gasket failure.

Hope this helps, would put money on it being the same thing.

PM me if you need more info.

Cheers Mark