Boat vibration

[Morlers]

Recently bought a new Haines Hunter Breeze 510 with Johnson 90hp 4 stroke. So far, have done only 3hrs in smooth water (river) whilst 'running it in'.

Two things concern me at this stage:
1. Vibrations heard and felt throughout the boat coming in at around 2,700rpm and staying till about 3,300rpm. Dealer states it is because of motor developing the power but hasn't transferred into boat speed as yet.
2. Lateness of getting onto the plane at around 3,800rpm and readiness to drop off the plane when revs drop to around say 3,600rpm. Dealer says this is due to motor liking to rev higher than others and weight of fibreglass boat.

The above would lead me to believe that when in open coastal waters with a bit of chop/swell and revs dropped to make for smoother riding then I would loose the plane easily and be in a 'vibration' situation, possibly for quite some time.

The motor revs out to 6,000rpm at WOT (and 55kph) which dealer says indicates that it is correctly propped with alloy 3x14x17 prop.

I am quite a novice at boating and would appreciate any advice/comments on above two concerns. Am I unduly concerned?

Thanks

??? ???
Morlers

[Hagar]

Morlers
Not getting onto the plane until 3800 and dropping off the plane at 3600 ? Seems very high RPM to achieve planing to me. Is this with the motor trimmed fully down ? Does this model have a trim limit pin and if so is it in the very last hole . Your concern about offshore handling is justified . Hopefully another Ausfisher will have a rig similar and will be able to compare for you . Vibration ? Isn't the lack of that one of the big selling points of four strokes. Don't lose the warranty papers .

Chris

[aido]

a look at the johnson site gives an operating range
of 4,500 - 5,500 with maximum power at 5,000.
maybe your motor does like to rev more than other
examples, beware dealers giving lip service
to brush aside your doubts,real or imaginary.
vibrations through the hull though caused by
power not transferring into boat speed? surely that
would only be a transient problem. cavitation comes to mind.
might be worth while talking to haines hunter about it.

http://www.haineshunter.com.au/

[MTpockets]

I would suggest asking the dealer to go for a test drive to see for himself. If he refuses, then maybe an independant expert needs to give you an opinion to take back to them. Most reputable dealers would not think twice about providing that kind of service. The suggestion to get onto Haines is also good advice. They may want to test it themselves, you never know.
cheers
Les

[Big_Kev]

What brand of prop is currently fitted? (New 90 with an alloy prop??)
I would ask dealer to try some different props.

[SeaHunt]

Have to agree with Kev, should have got them to throw in a stainless steel prop ,while you were haggleing over price, Actually it should have had one on as standard on a boat like that.
It sounds like the dealer is giving you the fob off with bullshit stories, which a lot seem to do to save money. It should not have a noticable vibration , especially throughout the entire boat. 6000 revs for a 4 stroke is a little high especially with a new motor , I wouldn't sit on that for too long. I dont take mine past about 5,500 (unless it gets airborne). ;D

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

the boats only rated to 100hp 4s by haines so a 90 should push it ok. Does the motor run smooth & quiet otherwise - could its timing be off or starved for fuel - are you running new fuel

[Morlers]

Thanks Guys for the replies so far. To answer a few questions raised:

Hagar Motor is trimmed down fully when starting off. Not sure about any trim Limit Pin though...will check when I get home tonight.

aido Brochure for Johnson & Suzuki also say 4500-5500rpm so was a bit surprised when dealer said goes to 6000rpm. Dealer's mechanic did a test after 1st outing to test prop @ WOT and reached 6000rom for a minute or so. States prop correct, motor a high rever and boat a late planer.
[list] MTpockets Arranged test with dealer next Tuesday. I wanted some information prior to this.
[list] ReelHard & SeaHunt Didn't think to ask for a s/s prop in deal. Just thought it would have been standard for that motor. Will suggest change on Tuesday's test run.
[list] CHRIS_aka_GWH New fuel on 1st trip and now only 2 weeks old. Used unleaded from local United Sve Stn, NOT Wollies.

I have asked dealer about a foil and he will also check this out on Tuesday. He's a pretty good dealer really and I don't think he's trying to fob me off. I just didn't understand his response and let him know I still had concerns.

Thanks for all the responses so far, any more would be appreciated.

:) :)
Morlers

[Monza]

These are top motors - heaps of torque and plenty of pick up down low, and geared to swing big props. Just a few points from my experience with these motors.
1. Max RPM is 5500 for this motor - the ECU chokes the motor after this RPM to limit power to 90hp
2. To achieve this range, prop size should increase to 21" alloy or 20" stainless. Target 5000rpm as this motor loosens up after 20-30 hours.
3. Top speed for this boat will now be at least 65kph with this motor, and it will plane closer to 3000rpm.
4. The dealer shouldn't be thrashing this motor to 6000rpm until at least 5-10 operating hours (read the manual)

[NQCairns]

Hi 6000rpm is ok, with full tank, people and gear etc it might max out at 5750 ish thats right where you want to be for wot.

I had a look at a near new Hainse today and when I punched the outside of the hull up high with the fleshy part of my fist it vibrated inside somewhere badly not a solid 'thump' at all like what a person expects from a glass hull. This boat would be noisy when the motor hit it's resenace peak, they all do it somewhere in the rpm band (yours sounds very bad).

Like what was allready mentioned change props even an identical prop, some brand new props can be an inch in pitch out overall between blades straight from the box, more common than you might think. nq

[Morlers]

Took aido's advice and rang Haines Hunter. They told me I should refer to dealer. Insisted on speaking to someone but on explaining the problem was told that it wasn't the boat but motor so speak to dealer who fitted it. They didn't want to speak to the consumer who bought their product but said dealer could ring them.

Next rang Bombardier in Sydney. Told me they don't "tie up their phone lines talking to consumers" and that I should talk to dealer who could ring them.

Whatever happened to good old customer service? A bit arrogant I feel. Obviously they don't employ Customer Service Managers any more!

I know I can speak to the dealer and have already done so, having made an appointment to test the boat on the water next Tuesday. The dealer is very cooperative and helpful.

It's just that I wanted some information now to help understand what could be happening so as to ease my worries/concerns now rather than waiting till next Tuesdays test run. Oh well.

Thanks for all your replies. I really appreciated the help.

:) :)

Morlers

[aido]

sorry to hear these industry leaders have no regard for the end
users feelings.
i've often had very satisfactory answers and actions from such
companies via e-mail queries. check their websites and hopefully
they will have an enquiry address, worth a try, and costs nothing.

hope your dealer is a good guy in the mean time.
aido.

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

can we say it ...

BUY A CRUISE-CRAFT.


bloody nice blokes - always willing to speak to their customers - they seem to believe it actually helps improve the design thru the feedback - I don't own one (bit out of my league yet - but one day ...

[smerl]

If you keep getting the run around from the manufacturers then try getting at them through the Boating Industry Association. Supposedly thats what they are there for. Their website is www.biaq.com. It also might be worth contacting Sola's Propellors. They put props on heaps of motors and will probably have an idea of what should be on yours. The 6000 rpm WOT coupled with the high revs to plane sounds like it may be a prop problem. The vibration could be too if it is caused by cavitation.

Cheers,

Smerl

[vertico]

definately sounds like a prop problem

[SeaHunt]

So what's happened?

[Morlers]

Emailed Solas Props and they advised:
"The haines breeze is a great little performer and really you should have no problem with this combination. The motor is made by suzuki and we prop 90% of all suzukis sold. OMC do not have a range of these special propellers developed especially for suzuki and are using common omc propellers. The correct prop is a 14 1/2x17 s/s h/r titan @ $650."

The boat is presently with dealer for testing and should find out answers tomorrow. I have advised the dealer of all of the suggestions I have received through this post and he is researching/investigating further.

I should add that the dealer has been very cooperative and willing to get to the bottom of the problem.

Thanks for all the help. I will advise outcome when known.

:) :)

Morlers

[blaze]

good to see the dealer supporting you in trying to find an answer to the problem
cheers
blaze

[Morlers]

Interim update:

Dealer has tested boat and acknowledges problems. Bombardier has been unable to offer solution except to say that harmonics in my particular engine developed at those rev ranges, coupled with the particular boat causes the vibration.

The dealer has fitted a foil to help with earlier planing and has ordered a bigger pitched prop also to drop back the high revs and to test if old prop faulty in manufacture.

I will keep you all informed when I get the boat back next week after prop fitted and further testing.

:) :)

Morlers

[blaze]

not a lover of foils, you should not have to put a foil on a new rig.
It just stands to reason that by putting a foil on, it can excert 10 times the pressure on the exsisting cav plate on the outboard, very basic principle of leverage
If it was my boat, i would want it rectified without bolt on extras
cheers
blaze

[aido]

great news the dealer is being proactive.
i don't like bombardiers response though,
purely ducking for cover by the sounds of that reply.

[megafish71]

Im with you Aido , good to see a dealer taking an interest in sorting out a problem and not just interested in getting your
money. If this dealer sorts out your problem and your happy with them, perhaps you should use this tread to give him a plug. After all I think all of us like to here who the better dealers are. Good luck with sorting everything out and don't forget to let us all know how it goes.

Cheers Ron

[Morlers]

Hi Guys. Sorry to take so long to get back with update. Here it is to date.

Prop problems were tipped by several posts and they were right. I found the prop had one blade 1mm shorter than the others. Obvioiusly the cause of the vibration.

Dealer put a 19" prop on and we tested it last week. Guess what...no vibration. Still revved to 6200 though and hit the rev limiter. Dealer was amazed at the ease with which the motor handled the bigger prop and the ease it reached WOT. He couldn't believe how gutsy the motor was. Also amazed that it didn't drop the revs back. Has consulted with Bombardier and they advised not to worry about those revs as my 90hp is same motor as the 115hp that revs to 6000rpm. Also, they are sending a 21" stainless prop to see if it will improve the situation of revs and assist with earlier planeing.

The vibration is gone and worry lifted. Now its just a matter of fine tuning.

I am pleased to confirm that the dealer, Bruce Hooper of Ron Glass Marine Bundaberg, has stood by me and has gone the extra mile to help.

Thanks Guys for all your suggestions and interest.

:) :)

Morlers

[Sportfish_5]

Thats great stuff to hear [smiley=thumbsup.gif]