New Motor troubles.

[Doomy]

Hi all,

I have just purchased a brand new 40hp Mercury 4stroke EFI.

On its madien voyage it ran fine for the first twenty minutes then started to surge. I returned to idle and couldnt get it to start reving again without sputtering then after another couple minutes it cutout on idle.

Checked fuel line/connections/air valve on tank ect.

Sat for a while and threw lures while drifting towards ramp when restarted worked fine.

After another 15 minutes of running went through exact same thing. After another ten minutes with engine off worked fine again and got back to ramp.

Pumbed a litre of fuel out when I got home looking for contaminates and checked fuel bowl/filter. Both appeared fine.

So to me it appears either a heat problem ie motor warms up and EFI plays up?
Or fuel pump problem?

How long can you run a motor on earmuffs?
I want to try and see if problem occurs again without towing it to the ramp and getting stuck to far from ramp.

Thanks for any help
Doomy

[dfox]

Dont muck around mate ring dealer straight away its not worth risking any damage even if its a basic problem, the buggers will clame you tampered with it!

[Doomy]

Yeah I know mate.

I'm just worried that they will run it for ten minutes say everything is fine and next trip it happens again.

I would like to prove it at home before taking it to dealer.

[Glug]

Like Dfox said take it back or they will blame you for running it hot.

[Aaron_Fogarty]

Doomy
Get yourself a RACOR fuel filter. They are about one of the best on the market. Condensation is a big problem in underfloor fuel tanks. Doin this you eliminate one probable cause for breakdown, and for furure trips you have piece of mind that your donks getting good juice.

New motor? dont muck around, take it strait back to the dealer and explain it to the mechanic.Ensure you observe the proper run in proceedures. Its all Warrenty�B
also your can run your motor on earmuffs for as long as you like. I run my new f80 yamaha for at least half hour.
regards Aaron

[Doomy]

Thanks lads.

Talked to the dealer a little while ago and he said bring it back so they can do a on-water test.

Bit of a pain but worth it for the peice of mind I guess.

Aaron the tank is a 25ltr portable. Do you still recommend another filter?

It's a brand new tank and fuel so I still think it will be a electronic/heat problem in the EFI.
Hopefully they can tell me tommorrow.

[Needmorerum]

Keep us informed Doomy, be interested in knowing what it was.

Corry

[Morlers]

Just a long shot, but did you undo the breather on the portable fuel tank? Maybe the vacuum created by using fuel eventually starved the motor of fuel. After a rest of 10-15mins maybe the tank recovered pressure until next use.

:) :)

Morlers

[bakes]

we had same problem with our 200 yammie turned out to be a wasp nest in the fuel pumps cleaned it up and works good now i also am with morler might be a possibility with the breather.
cheers bakes

[Jeremy]

Have to disagree with Aaron about running your motor for as long as you like on ear muffs. There are other threads on this topic buried somewhere and the general consensus is to keep it short. (try searching under flushing outboards or similar).

There is no way you are going to simulate on water running with ear muffs anyway, as you are only going to be idling on the ear muffs.

Jeremy

[Aaron_Fogarty]

Doomy
Whether portable or underfloor you never know the quality of fuel your getting from the servo.As a precaution an isolated filter will do more good than harm..
Aaron

[cooky]

half hour on muffs - your neighbours must love you!

You can run your motor higher than idle (depending upon motor).

The problem I am told though is it almost impossible to simulate LOAD using either muffs or 44 gallon drum, etc. Load is important as your motor can run perfectly well at home and like a dog under load.

[Lundy]

Doomy,

I have got a 60 4 stroke EFI Merc and have had the same trouble you mentioned!!! It was on my 2nd trip and motor felt like it had dropped a cylinder and wouldn't rev, stopped waited and started no probs. 1/2 hour more, same thing. I have under floor tank and 2 big breathers so thats not the problem. Took it back to the dealer and had it water tested and no fault found. Since then I have clocked another 10 hours without a worry. I am still scratching my bald head. Dealer said bring it straight back if the problem cames back. Nice motor otherwise.

Steve

[Doomy]

Thanks all.

It's at the dealers now.
As stated in first post I checked breather on tank. Both fittings and the bulb was right way around.

I think I will get a filter Aaron as whats a couple bucks compared to $7k.

Will inform everyone of the outcome.

[reeldreamer]

Well Doomy,
I have just put a brand new 175 optimax on my signiture and yesterday i has cruising the brissy river skiing and so forth, 300m from the ramp @ about 4800rpm the whole motor completely locked up! Took it to the shop today being less than 10 hours old i was informed there is no compression in the 5th cyclinder!!!! I was out on wednesday almost at the Barwon banks :o So anyway i am told they are sorting it out with Mercury.... Shall keep you informed

[Doomy]

Several phone calls from dealer asking me to go over again what happened.
Nothing found as of yet but I don't think they have actual put it in the water. Just running it in a drum.

[Zeeke]

shoulda just gone with a Yamaha less stress

Tim

[Doomy]

Ouch reeldreamer. Big diff between the two motors 40 and 115 :(

Yeah the Yamaha was cheaper to Zeeke but overall package wasn't. This dealer is Mercury and I had heard good things.

They just told me taking it for run in the bay tommorrow morning.

[dfox]

youl find that a lot of the merc is yamaha any way but the optimax is a different story i "bet" they replace the power head
rather then doing the right thing and just giving you a new motor.......stand by for what happens reeldreamer this should be an interesting one...foxy ps goodluck mate

[macca]

Doomy

I used to have a merc that did the same thing, I had it serviced at a well known southside mercury dealer.

The first week they said they fixed it when run in the drum, but after I took it home and ran it on the weekend same problem.

Tell the dealer to stop wasting their time and yours and do a water test.

Macca

[reeldreamer]

They have told me they will replace the power head which i am not entirely happy about considering the age of the unit. It doesn't fill me with any confidence that the problem will be entirly solved as the parts around the power head are probably what has failed rather than the powerhead it's self. Any suggestions as to what i should do? I am thinking of contacting mercury direct, the dealer reckons there is no chance of a total motor replacement.......

[cooky]

Never ASSume.

It's always worth trying. Go hard.

Send Mercury the link to this post and let them know we're all waiting to hear their response.

I have a Mercury as many members do. When we're looking to upgrade I'd prefer to have happy thoughts about the brand.

Good luck! ;)

[reeldreamer]

Spoke with the Mercury head office in Coomera and they have instructed the dealer to take the motor apart and find the cause of the problem. I have told them in no uncertain terms i want the motor replaced as this is my 2nd merc in as many years (Just upgraded from a 150efi no problems though) also we purchased the navman 6600 fishtracker (Which you may know comes direct through mercury). Bottom line when they fix the engine and if it breaks down again 30kms off the coast neither the dealer or mercury will be with me....so i want the piece of mind that my motor will last further more i bought a new motor not a rebulit one!!! >:(

[dfox]

Thats exactly what i thought would happen reel dreamer, and doesnt it piss you off!
A mate of mine just had his 150 optimax do a power head and is going through the same dramas, only problem is his is just out of warrantee.The worst part is after ringing and writing one of the best and well presented letters to mercury they havnt even done him the curtiousy of a reply. So another mate in the boating industry wrote a well presented letter as well asking for some assistance or at the least a possiable explanation of a possiable cause and you guessed it, no reply. So it looks like his $15000 engine always serviced by mercury nearly 4 years old just on 400hrs is going to owe him $21000 "great"! Now with you your going to have an engine with vertiually every nut and bolt removed and retightened all the fittings tampered with and vertiually a NEW second hand motor!! Unless of some freekish chance itll never be the same as a factory assembled unit, Ive pesonally owned 5 mercury-mariners and ive had great ones and one in perticular shitter, and gee i had the run around with that motor! Twice towed home from deep tempest and found the dealer great but mercury VERRY un helpful. Ive since spoke to 2 other blokes with MAJOR optimax problems, i hope this isnt a trend! I hope things work out for you reel dreamer and lets all be thankful that your engine wasnt a PLANE...foxy

[reeldreamer]

Foxy,
Trust me they will not get away with this, if they try i will take it to court bottom line! Plus i have friends in some very weird and wonderfull places but i will wait and see what transpires... though you have really created some doubt in my mind as to the longevity of the motor as you friend has experienced perhaps if merc dig there toes in i will tell them to refund my money and i will talk to other companies luckly for me i am somewhat in the drivers seat because it is only 2 weeks old! The ACCC could have a field day on this ;)

[dfox]

As you can tell i know the feelling mate, im sure plenty of ausfishers are suporting you mate...foxy

[aido]

reeldreamer, not to say you contributed to the destruction
of the nbr5 pot, but i'm wondering if ski-ing around the river
at 4800 rpm is good running in... <10hrs by how much?
i reckon replacing the powerhead is a fair sort of repair.
if my new car blew the motor, i wouldn't really expect a new car,
just repair/replacement of the motor.

a new replacement outboard would be very opti-mistic imho.

[megafish71]

Bloody Hell, Just think I nearly bought 1 of those 175 opti's myself. Just couldn't get past a comment that was made by one of the mechanics at the Merc dealership. He said "I guess we will get to know you" Don't know if this comment was indicative of common problems, or if he ment that he would see me for regular services. But it made me think and I started to do a fair amount of research into the opti's. Some American sites had alot of info and some very bad press about the merc opti's and the yamy hpdi's so I decided to go 4 stroke. I had previously owned a yamy 4 stroke so decided on a 200hp yamy 4 banger. The price difference between a 175 opti and the 200 4 banger was only 2 grand and in my opinion the extra 2 grand was money well spent. Well best of luck with sorting out your problem with merc and don't take any crap from them. Stick to your guns mate.
I'm somewhat puzzled as to why merc doesn't just swap the outboard and take the damaged one back to their factory to identify the problem and retify it from happening to more, of if the problem was caused by a substandard quality part, then a recall could be done to repair the problem. I guess thats big business for you, only consened with the dollars and not about the safety of the end user. I bet it wouldn't be the chief bean counter or CEO who will be stuck miles out to sea or caught in the middle of an ugly bar crossing with thier wife and kids onboard. If only these guys could experience something like that they would change thier tone and focus a little on customer service and satisfaction.

Best of luck guys

Cheers Ron

[reeldreamer]

I am not asking for a new boat......just a motor, using a car as a comparsion is farily un resonable as a car is more than just a motor, further more how many of you have driven out of the dealership with your new car only to have it seize on the first decent drive you go on! I refer you to the break in proceedure in the optimax manual as to the breakin proceedure for the motor and i can assure you we followed the instructions to the letter. My last engine had jsut over 100 hours on it without a blink in the time i owned so i believe i know a little bit about these size engines. As proof that my old engine was well maintained the sales manager bought it privately for his own boat!

[propdinger]

if they dont come to the party you could always put a big sticker on the side saying the motor is a lemon ive seen that work before especially when its parked outside from where it came from

but in all being 2 weeks old they should replace it imho

jeff

[Doomy]

Hope all turns out well reeldreamer.

The marine took mine out this morning for 45mins without a problem. But when they returned to the shop and flushed it it started to play up.

I'm happy cause at least they know I wasn't totally useless and forgot the breather or something.

Turns out it was the breather but because it was faulty.

They took it for another hour spin with no dramas so I'll pick it up tommorrow.
At least that annoying first two hour run in is done and I can at least open it up ;D (Not staying on one throttle setting for more than 5 mins for the next 8 hous running thou!)

[aussiebasser]

It seems like a strange run in procedure for a 4 st merc. I ran my 50 in, the same as I inteded to use it. As the dealer suggested, and I've never had any problems with it.
Water in the fuel will show up on the Merc diagnostic computer whether it's still there or not.
As for expecting a complete new engine because there is a compression problem with a cylinder, don't you think you're expecting a bit too much? If it was a car, would you expect a new motor, gearbox, diff and suspension??
If they do replace the complete engine, what could they do with the old one? Repair it, and sell it off as a new one? Not likely!! So they have to just throw it out, and give two complete motors for the price of one. Get real guys!

[Big_Kev]

To loose the compression in a cylinder is a major malfunction for a new motor.
To be wanting a new powerhead as you have said the dealer has agreed to supply is well within reason I would think. My interpretation of powerhead is the complete engine part of the outboard (all the fruit attached) that is mounted on top of the leg and covered with the cowl.
Be sure to keep us updated to how you get on. :)

[Glug]

Thanks guys I was looking at buying a new Merc now it is right off my shopping list. I was getting a bit iffy after hearing about bad service from them, Keep pushing for a new motor mate that is what you paid for not a reconditioned one because that is exactly what your getting after they repair it. Reconditioned ones are a lot cheaper so why pay new motor price.

[reeldreamer]

The powerhead is only really the block, pistons, crank and rods and all the other bits come off the buggered engine. What was very suspect about the old engine is that in just over 10hrs use it used close to 7L of oil which leads me to think the is something more sinister happening in said then just a powerhead failure. Powerheads don't just fail something outside of it has to stop doing it's job thats why i want a new engine. It was funny the guy from merc said my motor has more electronics in it then the shuttle that took man to the moon, i replied "At least he got home without having to be towed!" I will keep you all posted...Here is a pic of the boat when it worked at the straddie classic with the old reliable 150efi merc

[aido]

hmm, 7 ltrs of oil.
how much fuel have you used.
supposing the oil was mixed at an average 75:1
then thats around 500 ltrs of petrol.
then you've been burning about 50 ltrs/hr.
maybe all your wizz bang electronics has a program
to increase the oil usage during the run-in period??
that could explain it.
don't doubt the mercury guys will get to the bottom of it.
wheather they give an honest explaination is another thing.

nice looking boat you got there.

[reeldreamer]

The motor has a break period of 120mins when the motor is above 3000rpm it double oils, perhaps the computer failed and the motor continued to double oil. The feed back from mercury has been anything but usefull. I hate comparing a failed marine engine to a car, it's a very poor comparison as a car is more than an engine!!! $20,000 spent and now i have a reconditioned motor! I have spoke with merc and they will not replace the engine so i don't know what to do, the office of fair trading said they can take the engine back repair it and if it fails again i have a case! What a load of crap, perhaps i should talk to my insurance company and see whether will want to insure a reconditioned engine

[Big_Kev]

Nice looking rig.
Powerhead as you have said is only a long engine.
A powerhead is an assembly/powerpack that can be run as is, and that is bolted to the leg and away you go. No need to put all the other bits on.
That is what I would be wanting in your shoes, and complete new engine is a big ask.
Cheers Kev

[dfox]

My opinion is simple- if i had a second hand car and bought a brand new engine and gear box for it and it stuffed up after 10 hours id want them to pull that motor out and replace it not rebuild the damm thing, because its a boat somehow opnions differ? Its all verry well until its your money...foxy

[reeldreamer]

Well you all guessed it, got screwed by the man! Powerhead it is...... :'( They are so very confident that the motor will be right and have assured me in every sense but i am seriously disheartened. To all you new motor buyers out there really ask the serious questions before you sign anything becasue i have seen both sides of the spectrum and it ain't pretty. Basically all the powerhead consists of is a preassmebled block, pistons and crank all the other stuff is unbolted off the old engine and refitted. Tomorrow i am supposed to pick up the boat and i will explain to them that after the breakin period i am gonna cane the arse out of the motor so long as it is under warranty and if it fails so help them god...... needless to say i will follow all the proceedures to the letter but anywhere i am going, it will be at full noise! Mercury really had a chance here to prove themselves but they trully area bunch of arseholes in the nicest sense of the word, they where getting angry with me and i am the customer? Don't get me wrong the dealer has been extremely helpful but merc are a bunch tight arses so the score lies... Mercury 1 Me 0. I don't think this will be the last word somehow......I will keep you posted as to the new reconditioned motor :-[

[blaze]

Hi reeldreamer
I think you will have recieved a good outcome because if it had been a car, the engine would have been dismantled, cyc bores honed and put back together with new rings. Ok i know its not a car but you are getting a new motor (it could probable be fixed with new rings and hone). If the bolt on bits fail in the futute they will be covered by warranty.
If you flog your o/board as you stated it will probable have a premiture failure after the warranty expires, point to ponder i think
cheers
blaze

[reeldreamer]

Blaze,
I don't intend owning the motor after the warranty has expired. I will be buying a new boat all together before the warranty finishes. A car is a terrible comparison, though one of my good mates worked for nissan, ford then mercedes and he happened to be in the boat when the motor packed up and he told me some of the stories about the things he has seen and that would make your hair stand on end, trust me if you had forked out 20k for a new engine i would like to see your reaction! ;)

[Big_Kev]

I don't think that I would be totaly happy with the outcome either Reeldreamer.
But I think that Merc must feel confident that the repair (long motor) will fix the problem, or they will be sure to replace the rest of the power head.
You could find some recompense in that the major internals are new and not having been pulled down and reassembled,(as Blaze has said) only giving you a reco motor and not totaly the new one that has cost you 20k. (but I would still not be totaly happy.)
Since you are gonna get rid of it when the warranty runs out, be sure to want free services for the duration for troubles you have endured. (that way, You 1/Merc 1)
Cheers #8)

[aido]

it would be nice if they came clean with exactly what caused
the failure. something like a failed connecting rod or piston will
ease the mind. i think it's called a short motor when the motor
accessories are swapped. failed reeds should be obvious and can
fail a pot also.
more insidious might be a fuel injection problem. that took two
short motor changes on the suzi to get right.
jeese, the last time they tried to get a sleeve put in the failed
cylinder... glad i got a new powerhead (block, pistons, rods & crank)
rather than that bodgy repair.
if you had a meltdown on nbr 5 piston, i'd ask them to flow check
the injectors, they can come back to haunt.

[dfox]

What type of boat ya looking at for the future mate?

[reeldreamer]

Just been with the dealer and the service manager from mercury, they had the motor running with the new powerhead. They are currently water testing the boat to calibrate all the settings and guages, i was very sure to tell them where they could find the oars if required. Aprartently the dealer believes the bore to piston clearance was to small causing the piston to sieze, i felt the piston and the needle bearing rollers on the top of the rod to piston, they were very tight and dry. So anyway we shall soon see what happens with the new engine. The merc bloke can't explain the over oiling nor can he find any errors in the motors computer. In answer to your question foxy probably the next boat will be maybe the whitley sportfisher 6.5m or 7m even possibly the seafairer but will consider it in a year or 2! I will keep you all posted as to the progress with the engine also they are putting in my new navman 6600 fishtracker today ;D Can't wait to see that baby work!