Yamaha or Suzuki

[jack.d]

Hi all, I'm looking at replacing my 4.6m Webster cat with a 5.5-6.0m fibreglass bowrider #style boat fitting either a 4stroke Yamaha 150hp #or Suzuki 140 hp motor. Was wondering if anyone has one of these motors or has any comments /advise on either motor. Both get good reports in media, Suzuki is a fair bit cheaper!
Boats I' consideing are bow-riders by Smuggler 5.9, Southern Star (Southwind) 5.65m, or Haines Signature 550.
Would appreciate any comments.

[wowser]

G'day,

I have a Suzuki 115HP 4 stroke, and can't fault it on my Signature 530C, 68kph @6000rpm.

Quiet, smooth, fuel efficient, an awesome motor.

From what I have read, the Suzuki 140HP is even better than mine, i.e. more power and lighter.

I think that you can't go wrong with a Suzuki or a Yamaha.

Regards

Wowser

[Zeeke]

Suzuki is the poor mans Yamaha

[Mad_Barry]

Suzuki is the poor mans Yamaha

Interesting comment, So what technical comparison do you base that on ?

[wowser]

Sounds like a victim of marketing to me...

[Sportfish_5]

I have been looking at this very question myself but rather the 115hp than the 150hp Yammie.The 140 Suzuki looks to me to be the leader in 4 stk technology in it's class at present. In saying that it is also a fairly new engine and time will tell. However I will soon be spending my hard earned on the Suzuki next year. The power to weight plus the ability to swing a 4 blade prop with the gear reduction look to be some of the winning factors for me.

Poor man's Yammie ??? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ Personally I dont think so but would love to hear what you base that comment on?

Cheers

Greg

[Hagar]

There doesn't seem much between the two brands as far as the quality of the motors go . Both units have good reviews . If I were choosing between the two the biggest issue would be with Suzuki's commitment to the Australian marine market . Are they in for the long haul this time and will they invest to the required level in spares holdings and dealerships etc. . Remember they abondoned the Aussie market in years past . No I don't have shares in Yamaha - I just stick to high volume production suppliers .

Chris

[bignick]

I agree with Chris wholeheartedly. Suzuki have come and gone and come again whilst Yamaha have been in Australia for a long time. The "We're in it fir the long haul!" catchcry sounds lovely, but they were probably that way last time around. Yamaha has a well-proven track record of reliability and back-up service. Whilst these Suzukis may be the next big thing, I would be inclined to just hang back and see what happens and see if they stand the test of time. Similar to cars, I wouldn't buy the first model of anything because the first model is always the one that is full of the dreaded gremlins and it takes the manufacturers a couple of models to iron out all the bugs to get the model they wanted in the first place. Anyway, last I heard, Yamaha currently holds something like 52% of the world outboard market and you don't get to that position by being stupid and/or flogging inferior product.

Cheers,
BIGNICK.

[wowser]

Hello Guys,

I agree, Yamaha is very dominant and Suzuki were here and left.

But there are always reasons for these things.

Suzuki left because OMC went bust and left them without a presence in Oz and likewise in their absence the Yamaha brand grew even stronger ( i.e. larger marketshare ). It's just market dynamics.

Once a brand gets large enough it is just self fulfilling and "people will buy them just because they are so large".

Just look at the Oz telco market a similar thing exists with Telstra. Are they the best ? Maybe. Are they the biggest ? Definitely Yes.

I picked Suzuki as the technology seemed at least on par and maybe better than Yamaha especially in the 70HP and 140HP. The 115HP impressed me as well.

But like I have said previously, I am sure that the Yamaha would have been a great purchase. Nowadays the quality of the engineering is so great it easily outperforms most peoples useage.

I am sure that the Suzuki and a few other brands do not have the range of Yamaha repair centres and therefore I may have to travel further to get my engine repaired, but this is assuming that something goes wrong in the first place.

The largest marketshare is not a good indicator of a "perfect product" it just means that they have got a few of the aspects of their delivery channel right.

I would be happy with any engine that meets my needs and everyone has a personal favourite, for me though a Yamaha, Suzuki, Johnson or Mercury will do the job.

Any brand that comes out of Japan with a few years of experience behind it means that they have ironed most of the bugs out of the product. The same goes for electronics such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Sharp, etc etc.

Go for what suits you.

Suzuki did it for me ( based on technology not emotion), but so would have the others.

Regards



Wowser

[yockman]

<Just look at the Oz telco market a similar thing exists with Telstra. Are they the best ? Maybe. Are they the biggest ? Definitely Yes. >

Not such a good comparison, hasn't got much to do with market dynamics.

Telstra is the biggest cause it was once a fully state owned utility with a monopoly, all the infrastructure and 100% of the market shatre going its way. Yamaha has fought its way to the top in a relatively free world market, (despite the subsidies the US govt gives its own outboard producers).
Cheers,
Yockman
#

[wowser]

I agree with that Yockamn. You have made a good description of Telstra and Yamaha. I was making a point of Yamaha in the Australian Marketplace and I think that I lost my way with the Telstra example.

Regards


Wowser

PS : I don't work to Telstra or Suzuki

[dfox]

Better throw in my two bobs worth! Im yammie through and through so id go 150 yammie 4 stroke but if you decide suzuki hang out a while because a new revised 140 is on its way, the problems with the current one will be fixed, ask suzuki what problems and theyll tell you none, but the blokes clocking up big hours were finding plenty...thats all il say...foxy

[dazza]

hi all,
very difficult decision. went through it earlier in the year. only problem with suzuki was how long they will be in the market for. if haines decide to bail, i pitty those who own a suzi.
the research i did was that the suzi was probably a better motor, BUT???????
decided to go with the yammie because of market strength.
still say suzuki are probably the better motor
cheers
dazza

[megafish71]

I went through the same as Dazza, and came up with the same result. The local Suzuki dealer was a jerk also, in the end I bought a Yamy from a dealer I was comfortable with, and the fact that the Yamy product is a proven performer.

Ron

[aido]

seems like the guys at neptune marine springwood are
doing a good job, hell, they can even supply parts and
service for the 2 stroke beasts.
good on you neptune guys.. :D :D :D

[RyanP]

G'day All,

I agree with most responses to this topic but others seem to be more hype and rumour than fact.

If you want any background to Suzuki, just go to the American version of AusFish i.e. www.iboats.com and do a search on the Suzuki reputation.

The quality of the motor is just as high as Yamaha or any of the others.

I agree, if Haines did agree to bail from their association with Suzuki there would be a transition phase, but these processes take time and it is extremely rare for a manufacturer to pull up stumps and leave a county for good.

Haines Build boats, Suzuki build outboards. Outboards will alwyas be sold and that is a fact. Outboards will always need to be serviced and therefore there is always an industry.

I have no reservations owning a Suzuki and to be honest am surprised at how some people are 'scared ?' of buying one ? In the case where something might go wrong, or Suzuki might "pull out again"...

If we all bought one brand's products, we would all be paying a lot more for it as there is no competition.

Competition is good for the economy and for all of us. Consumers create competition and also play an active role killing it off.

All I can say, is Go Suzuki, Go Tohatsu, Go Mercury and all of the other brands and I hope that you are all successful, and that there is a healthy share of profits for all outboard brands.

Yamaha I hope stays strong, but I also hope that it doesn't become completely dominant and kill off competition in the local market.

Otherwise we will all pay in one way or another.



Regards


Wowser

[SeaSaw]

Like Dazza & Megafish, I recently went through the whole question of a new outboard and it came down to either suzuki or yamaha after considering all brands in both 2 & 4 stroke. #I also came to the conclusion that the suzi had a slight technical advantage and liked the idea of the bigger gear reduction to swing a bigger prop - this would be an advantage on a heavy fibreglass deep vee rig.

I ended up going for the Yamaha as the technical advantages were not enough to overcome yamahas better service availability and the yamaha was also much cheaper - I was looking at 225hp engines. #I also like the yamaha controls and gauges much better than the suzuki - which are pretty basic by todays standards.

I dont think you could go wrong with either engine as they are both at the top of the pile for mine. #If you decide on suzuki, give the Johnson 4 strokes a look as they are suzukis with white cowls and there are more johnson service centres than suzuki. #The only difference between the two is johnson use their own guages and controls, otherwise it comes down your preference in colour #;D oh and my research showed that the white ones are actually much less expensive than black ones. #;) ;D

cheers,

Mark

[jack.d]

Thanks for the comments, it appears Yamaha has main following as I would have expected being the market leader. I was quoted about $5000 less for the Suzuki which is a lot of money. I have since heard from a local Suzuki 140hp owner that oil is leaking from the motor at times, and it seams the dealer can not a find the cause. Not good!
Well lots of thinking still to do, at least I think I have decided on which boat to bolt the motor I choose on, I'm leaning towards for the Smuggler 5.9m bowrider.

Thanks again, Jack.D

[Sportfish_5]

Dave - Can you elaborate on the 140 problems ? Dont want to spend my hard earned on a problem child. :o :o :o :o :o

Cheers

Greg

[NQCairns]

That's the first time I have heard of any consistant problems with the Suzuki, the smaller ones had camshaft problems but that has been rectified, I read on a US site not long ago that the big yamaha 4s are gaining a poor rep for problems just like the big yami direct injection bombs, not sure if the 150 falls into this category?

[megafish71]

What kind of problems with the big yamy 4s. Mine hasn't missed a beat, would be interested to know what problems have occurred. On the Suzuki front I am a personal friend of a dealer interstate, and he warned me to steer clear of the v6 suzuki for a little while. A couple of concerns he has with them but wouldn't go into any details with me. He however said if I was chasing a 140hp go for it. Great motor and no real problems with the newer ones. A few minor oil leaking probs with the earlier ones but the new one's good as gold.

Ron

[NQCairns]

Ron I think it was consistant injection hardware problems, guess Yamaha would be onto it, just general stuff I guess. Time will tell if it is all just bother or bad blood.

[megafish71]

I was aware of problems with the HPDI but didn't realize that it extended to the the 4 bangers. So far no probs but will let everybody know if anything happens.

Cheers Ron

[GraemeB]

Guys, you should do yourself a favour and include Evinrude E-Tech's in your comparisons. I recently purchased one and am as pleased as punch with. 75hp on a Quinny 475 Freedom Sports. Great torque to get out of the hole, max of 5400rpm @ 40mph (tacho, haven't run it over the GPS yet), no break-in period, no drive chains/belts, 3 years or 100 hrs service intervals and what really impresses me.... it starts first time everytime - even in the middle of winter when there was ice on the seats of the boat!

Cheers, Graeme.

[wowser]

What kind of problems with the big yamy 4s. Mine hasn't missed a beat, would be interested to know what problems have occurred. On the Suzuki front I am a personal friend of a dealer interstate, and he warned me to steer clear of the v6 suzuki for a little while. A couple of concerns he has with them but wouldn't go into any details with me. He however said if I was chasing a 140hp go for it. Great motor and no real problems with the newer ones. A few minor oil leaking probs with the earlier ones but the new one's good as gold.

Ron

All I can say Ron is "another rumour" and where is the proof...

Everyone knows someone who knows someone...

I have personally done extensive searches of Suzuki Reliability and so far have found NO bad posts etc anywhere in the world.

I know that time will tell, but so far with only 30hrs on the clock it is all good news.

In 5 years time I will update everyone again.


Regards

Wowser

[dfox]

greg im "told" that the 140s have problems over the 1000hr mark with water galleries gloging up, so the revised version has a modified bloke and new head, they dont usually change an engine so quickly so in a way its good suzuki jumped on it, the lack of water flow in the upper end apparantly caused malfunctions, ive got a pro mate of a mate that had two engines both fail at 1800 hrs before trading them, but i havent spoken to him to find out what went wrong on the motors, someone else might know? Just wait greg if your keen on one anyway and play it safe!!...foxy

[jack.d]

Boltzy, I think the E-tecs do not go any bigger than 95hp at the moment. #I have considered other fuel injected 2 strokes however prefer 4strokes. Thanks for your input. Jack.D

[jack.d]

Boltzy, I think the E-tecs do not go any bigger than 95hp at the moment. I have considered other fuel injected 2 strokes however prefer 4strokes. Thanks for your input. Jack.D

[davo]

I have nothing against either brand but the sway for me would be that I have a very good Yamaha service person. Some of the local Suzuki blokes leave a bit to be desired

[megafish71]

Not much into rumours wowser, nor am I bagging the suzuki, but my friend is a long time good friend of my family, Im sure he wouldn't steer me wrong. Again just as foxy said these engines that are having problems are in the commercial side of things with 1000+ hours on them. Id reckon in five years you'll be lucky to have 600hrs on yours.

Good luck to ya

Ron

[Glug]

I live in one of the cold ports in the North of Japan and I just took a ride down both banks of the river to check out which outboard was most popular. Out of 47 boats I found, 1 Suziki 140. 3 Mercury. 4 Hondas. 2 Nissan the rest were Yamaha. The boat with the Suzuki also had a Yamaha trolling motor. I would not jump to any conclusions from this as to how good the latest model engines are but it does tell you some thing about service and reliability.

[Sportfish_5]

Well Well. Looks like some info coming in from the good old USA.

http://thehulltruth.net/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38516&start=1

[wowser]

When you have a good read of that information, from Sukzuki Owners, they come up pretty good.

Most of the stuff is about the 140 vs the 115

[wowser]

I am very happy with my Suzuki BF115

[Matt_G]

Jack D

I have had a Johnson (Suzuki) 140 for near on 12 months and have been absolutely rapped with its performance. It sits on the back of a Savage Swordfish 620. Initially it had a 17 inch pitch prop but revved a little too hard. A 21 was then fitted before going to a 19 inch alloy which did the trick. That prop now sits as my spare as I purchased a solas 4 blade which has been great, again 19 pitch.

Fuel economy is unbelievable. As an example I recently fished the Moooloolaba sailfish challenge and with a full days fishing which included 7-8 hours trolling and running to the various grounds, we used 53 litres. It is a great engine. I had the opportunity of getting a Yammie but found them more expensive, heavier and not as technologically advanced.

I am a very happy and satisifed customer. I look forward to many more years of affordable and flawless performance.

Regards

Matt

[Sportfish_5]

Yep I still feel I will go with the Suzi ;D ;D ;D

[Garry]

To all perspective Suzuki buyers! I can't help laughing at "Foxy's" comments regarding the new revised DF140 Suzuki. To start with there is no "revised" model as the current one has no inherent problems! I am not associated with importing Suzuki outboards however I am a Dealer that has alot of experience with Suzuki Outboards and in particular ones with high hours (over 2500 hours), operating in extremely harsh conditions (even harsher than what you would wish on your Mother-in-law!). For those of you in two minds I will cast some light on the performance of these engines. We have sold approximately fifty DF115 and DF140 Suzukis (95% of which are DF140s) into the Commercial sector in the Northern Territory. The Crabbing Industry in the NT has purchased Suzuki motors of us since October 2002 with excellent results. We have DF140 with over 3500 hours on them with no recurring problems. These engines are never flushed, rarely cleaned or serviced and run day in day out come rail, hail or shine. We have only had one engine returned to the workshop to be completly stripped due to an "unusual noise" emmiting from the motor, this motor had a damaged top crankshaft bearing, but considering that it had been sunk (yes sunk) in thirty metres of good old fasion salt water for 48 hours 12 months before hand I could safely say that this is not a fault of Suzuki. In total we have sold around 200 Suzukis and can confidently recommend them to any who wishes to spend their hard earned on something that WILL stand the test of time.

However, I do have to admit that Suzuki Outbaords do have one annoying problem that will be rectified over time, that problem is the ever deminishing lineup of knockers who wouldn't know a good product if it smacked them in the HEAD!!!!!

I agree that all engine brands on the market today are very good, however, I along with many satisfied Suzuki owners truly believe that Suzuki is the Worlds best Four stroke!

Cheers

Garry

[Glug]

To all perspective Suzuki buyers! I can't help laughing at "Foxy's" comments regarding the new revised DF140 Suzuki.

I am not associated with importing Suzuki outboards however I am a Dealer that has alot of experience with Suzuki Outboards

We have sold approximately fifty DF115 and DF140 Suzukis (95% of which are DF140s) into the Commercial sector in the Northern Territory.

However, I do have to admit that Suzuki Outbaords do have one annoying problem that will be rectified over time, that problem is the ever deminishing lineup of knockers who wouldn't know a good product if it smacked them in the HEAD!!!!!



::):-X

[RyanP]

Thanks Garry,

That means that I have about 3470hrs left on my BF115 !! Bewdy !!

And I even flush my outboard after every use !

I wonder if your post will put all of the doubters to bed ?

Regards



Wowser

[basserman]

well i agree with garry but being mates will a dealler has helped me and my pocket!
as of december i will be re powering the old southwind with a new suzuki 140
it is replaceinf the 7 year old yamaha 115 2st
i don't think you could go wrong with a Suzuik and when you think that even the 140 4st is only something like 12kg heavyer than the old 115 2st :o
i can't wait ;D
as for any problem well i haven't heard of any as yet and never seen one sitting in his shop needing reparies how ever you do see alot of hondas and yamahas!
but really ether motor shold do the job your after and any motor if well mantained shouldn't have any problems! so really your better off shoping around and buying the motor of the dealer who is willing to do the best deal and who you would be happy to deal with later down the track for the serviceing and other boating needs ;D

[Sportfish_5]

So Basserman ;D

How much are you paying and what $$ did you get for the trade in ?
Maybe your'e mate might get another sale for the right biccies. So far the best I have been quoted was $13800 fitted (started at $16800 :o)with a $5500 trade in for my 2001 Yammie 115 2stk.

PM if you rather.

Cheers

Greg

[dfox]

No changes hey, well you better read this months trader boat it has it there a NEW 140 for 2005

[basserman]

How much are you paying and what $$ did you get for the trade in ?
Maybe your'e mate might get another sale for the right biccies. So far the best I have been quoted was $13800 fitted (started at $16800 :o)with a $5500 trade in for my 2001 Yammie 115 2stk.

yeh thats a pretty good price your got their
i'll be paying $12,000. but sold my motor already for $4000 to my old man so works out to only $8000
but normaly his retail price is also around the $17,000 but beeing in port macaquarie mid north coast nsw he needs to also add in freght to his prices so it does work out dearer than if ya brought one on the big smoke ;D

as for everyones worrie about the newer modle being brought out ! it has nothing to do with the macanics of the motor but more the packageing of it
they are just trying to stream line the motor more
just like when holden bring out a new car has little to do with the running gear but more the looks ;D

[Garry]

G'Day Foxy

Basserman is right, the only thing that changed on the 2005 Suzuki 140 is the Wiring loom from control box to engine. The pre 2005 models had a main engine loom, tacho loom and trim loom. The 2005 has a 16 wire main loom which carries all data to and from the engine, this has made installation easier and tidier. The engine harness has also obviously had the main loom plug changed (so they can be plugged together), it also now has a central grounging point to assist in assembly with no sacrifice to reliability. The mechanicals, sensors, ECU etc remain the same. Soooo! would we say that the pre 2005 140s had "problems" that have had to be rectified in the 2005 model? I'm no Rocket Scientist (and at a guess I'd say that you have not worked for NASA either) but I will confidently say NO!

Fox-Hunter

[dfox]

good one garry ;D Personally ive got three close mates that own 140 suzzies,( 2 are pros) so i get enough bagging off them, me having yammies, and its through them i was told of the "new" model, its via there mouth im told of the problems i mentioned and without knowing the full story i didnt want to say much. But for interest sake il find out. ps i did 2 seasons pro crabing and fishing in the gulf what area was the fella your refering to working?... foxy

[Garry]

Hi Foxy,
The Commercial guys we look after operate out of Booroloola, Port Roper, Groote Eylant, Bullo River, Mary River system and MiniMini. Most of these areas are very remote (a service trip is usually 1500 - 2000 km round trip with the majority of it off road).

I have attached a pic of our Field Service Vehicle fitting a DF140 on site.

cheers

Garry

[dfox]

Garry- eventually found out the problems the guy was experiencing, it turns out that at around 1500hrs the head was starting to block up in the water galleries ( dont know whether from salt or corrotion?) thus causing hot spots , these hot spots then caused pre ignition and the engine would run with a bad rattle, the boat has two df140 k4 models and both had the same thing happen. Now i know this new df140 has alterations as you stated but ive also noted it has a new model number k5, if everything is the same machanical wise why alter a 2year old engines model number and will there be a k6 next year? Garry is it possiable that the k5 head may have bigger water galleries in it then the k4? From external appearence and without cutting it open i dont think you could tell. The reason i ask you is i dont trust manufactures, they tend to bullshit or conveniatly not state all the facts...foxy
ps looks like the old johno got the bullet in your photo

[Garry]

Foxy,
The K5 refers to model year 2005. In 2003 they were K3 even though the first production K3 were released in 2002, this is the standard quick reference year model identifier regardless of if there have been any changes or not.

In regards to your comment on manufaturers leading us up the proverbial garden path, I have to say that in all honesty Suzuki would have to be one of the most upfront Organisations that I have ever had the chance to deal with. Suzuki actually request feedback be it good or bad from all Dealers and returns the favour by supplying upto date service/sales/parts Bulletins on a regular basis to ensure that they can maintain their Leading Edge in technology, performance and customer service.
[smiley=2thumbsup.gif]
Cheers

Garry

[Glug]

Garry, Suzuki could produce the best product in the world, yet one lemon can produce many knockers depending on how the dealer handles it. Why Suzuki virtualy dissapeared from the Australian market may have just been a market decision by the company or the knockers convinced most people that Suzuki was no good. The only way Suzuki is going to get rid of its knockers is to provide better service than other makers and a reliable product.

Your first letter was not a good choice of words it reminded me of the first Suzuki dealer I came across along time ago. He laughed at the customers knowledge and got agro about complaints and knockers. He never woke up to the fact that he was one of the reason Suzuki had so many knockers. Don't get angry about the knockers some have good reasons, some have none but Suzuki has sown what it reaping now, nobody else done it for them.

[RyanP]

G'day All,

I just noticed that Quintrex have just started supplying Johnson ( i.e. Suzuki ) outboards as standard on their BMT packages with the plan to also provide Evinrude outboards, instead of Yamaha. Maybe Bombardier offered a better deal ?

Given that now Quintrex and also Haines Signatures come standard with Johnson/Suzuki outboards, it is probably safe to say that Suzuki will be around for a long time in Australia ( this time around ).

What do people think ?

Regards


Wowser

PS : I am very happy with my Suzuki DF115, but would be just as happy with any engine ( Yamaha, Evinrude etc ) as long as it was reliable and safe.

[megafish71]

Garry,
Just a confirmation on the probs that I was told about. Seams that the a V6 suzuki in the commercial sector with 1800hrs on it was suffering from the same thing that foxy refered to that of hot spots that caused pre ignition problems, hence running with a rattle and lack of performance. This engine was only pulled down yesterday and it also appears to have a build up of crud in the water galleries. But seeing as this engine is in the salt water all of the time, hence never flushed out with fresh water this could happen to any brand. But you would have to be happy with 1800hrs in less than 12months and this your only trouble. The other prob was with the df140 and a seal on the propshaft that failed and allowed water into the gearbox and contaminating the oil. This particular dealer had 3 in a row do this. Could have been a prob with the seals manufacture or assembly of the gearbox. Don't get me wrong I'm not bagging the suzuki in anyway and as you know, I called you to see if you could sell me a Suzi 200hp and you told me to go and see the bloke here in Cairns. I wasn't comfortable with the way this bloke or his company and wasn't about to handover $24k to this bloke as I didn't believe he would stand behind his product. I think i was right as he doesn't have the suzuki dealership anymore. I have spoken to Darren and I know he is more than happy with his 250hp suzi. Garry its just like it is up there in sunny old Darwin, you deal with the person and product you feel most comfortable with and if I was still up there I would have bought a suzuki from you as I would never spend another cent with your mate from In & out your pocket even though I was more than happy with thier yammy product. So there you have it, I bought a proven product from a yammy dealer I felt confident with. Say Gday to all the crew for me and talk to you later.

Ron

Hey Garry, post some pics of your boats up here. I think some of these guys might be suprized at what kind of boats a lot of the Territory guides are using these days. Lets start with a pic of Sum Punt. #;D ;D