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cod_botherer
16-10-2004, 09:16 AM
Guys

Just bought a rig with a 1999 4st Yamaha F40. The handbook says to use regular unleaded but if it pings, use premium then go back to regular???

Given that I don't mind the extra $ for Premuim, should I just use that all the time or stay with Regular?

Thoughts appreciated.

CQ_Fisher
16-10-2004, 09:42 AM
MAte, do a search of the site for this topic, it has been raised numerous times.

Cheer
JD

Zeeke
16-10-2004, 09:42 AM
stick with Regular, premium burns to hot for the engine and shortens the life span, burns out the rings in the system aswell.. its a major no no.. if it pings, take it to a dealer.. let them sort it out.. dont shorten the life by using the wrong fuel, even my local yamaha dealer said.. "Yamaha outboards are made for standard unleaded fuel because its easier to get and that is what they are designed for"

cod_botherer
16-10-2004, 09:54 AM
Zeeke:

Thanks, that clears it up. Much appreciated.

CQ_Fisher:
The other threads I could find were two-bob-each-way.

Thanks

moondancer
16-10-2004, 03:39 PM
I've always gone for regular unleaded. If my memory serves me right, I think there was an article on this in a Bushn Beach, somewhere in the last 4 - 5 months.

Cheech
16-10-2004, 03:43 PM
I think that every time this issue comes up (I raised it myself once) you will get those that say, the manual says regular unleaded so stick with that. Then there are some that say to go the premium because it is exactly that,,, premium and better quality petrol. Some say it burns different and hotter.

Have to question if that really matters if it runs slightly hotter, with constant water cooling of the engine. ie, what if you run the same engine in Tassie and Cairns. the water temperature is very different. Does that effect the running? So would it be ok to run premium in Tassie and not in Cairns? I actually do not know the answer. Car engines are suppose to be better if they stay hot.

What I think about premium is that yes, the manufacturers do stipulate regular. They would have to. I mean,, how many sales would you get if you released a motor and said that the recommended petrol was premium? Not many is my guess. So standard is what they are made to (as a minimum octain level), and what is stated in the manual. Does not mean that premium will not be as good or better. It just isn't the minimum reccomended.

I currently run premium (have you guessed already) , but only because I bought a batch of regular that had ethanol and it did not agree with my motor. You will not get ethanol in premium. Switched and have not had an issue since.

Having said all that, if I get a bigger boat and use a lot more fuel, then cost will come into it and Iwill start using regular.

Some stations have signs up stating that there is no ethonol added. My local Ampol has one saying there is not ethanol. So if you use Regular then just make sure you know that there is no ethanol additive.

There you go. My 2 cents worth.

Cheech

Big_Muddie
17-10-2004, 05:16 PM
It's like asking how long is a piece of string!

I asked the dealer who sold and services my Yammie 40 4S. #

His answer was very straight forward and was based on economics - if you can afford Premium, use it. #Otherwise use standard unleaded. #He also said that no damage will result from using the premium fuel (I only asked about 4S).

So, I have been using it now for over 2 years - wonderful performance and better fuel efficiency (based on early measurements).

Obviously, there are different opinions amongst Yamaha dealers - it boils down to how much you trust the technical knowledge of the ones you talk to.

bignick
17-10-2004, 06:58 PM
Yes, this is and old topic that pokes its head up every now and then. Premium does burn hotter in the combustion chamber and that is largely anaffected by the general engine temperature that is mainatined by water flowing through the engine. Premium is more designed for high performance engines and can cause damage to the pistons, valves and rings of engines not designed for premium if used for an extended period. Pinging will also damage an engine and this should be sorted out either by the seller if still under warranty or by a suitably qualified technician. The only engine I know that would be designed for premium would be the Mercury Verado range of supercharged 4-stroke outboards.

Cheers,
BIGNICK.
P.S. Those Verados are an awesome piece of equipment!!

banshee
17-10-2004, 07:35 PM
There is an article in the Spring '04 Saltwater Fishing magazine about this subject on page 36,among other things concerning PULP and ULP in four strokes Andrew Norton states "......Remember that these comments apply only to four stroke engines.Under no circumstances operate a two stroke outboard on PULP as the aromatic chemicals in the fuel will stop lubricating oil being held in suspension and doing it's job while it's passing through the crankcase and into the combustion chamber(s).All current model two strokes,wether carbie,EFI or DFI,will operate well on 91 RON ULP providing it's free from ethanol."

Kerry
18-10-2004, 05:11 AM
As for this running hotter thing using premium, it's really not totally related to the temp of the engine but the denotation and burning time of the fuel. PLUP is generally a high compression detonation and burns at a different rate (and temperature/duration) than ULP.

Fuel that burns differently doesn't suit an engine for which is was not designed as the engine is trying to go on to the next phase and the fuel still hasn't completed doing what the fuel is designed to do.

Cheers, Kerry.

FishFrame
21-10-2004, 09:33 AM
Gee, cod_botherer, I bet you're glad you asked! :-/

cod_botherer
22-10-2004, 07:28 AM
Yip, I'm just gonna put diesel in it now and see what happens ;D

Kerry
22-10-2004, 04:01 PM
Yep - I suppose if ya didn't want to know you wouldn't have asked, hey ;)

Cheers, Kerry.

DR
23-10-2004, 01:58 AM
due to the fact that ulp loses it's, power, strength, whatever?? within 2 months, if your boat sits without use, as mine does. my mechanic suggests topping up with pulp to restore the, whatever, & make it usable again.
any comments.

Payneful
23-10-2004, 04:22 AM
DR

As fuel breaks down it looses it octane rating ... your mechanic is right in saying that if you top up with premium (higher octane fuel) you will increase the octane rating of the "stale" fuel. To what degree would be very hard to say, too many variables. There is a product you can buy that increases the octane rating in fuel, think its called octane booster ???

If you don't use your boat often, i would be draining the fuel into your car (assuming your 4stroke or oil injected) and refilling the tank in your boat whenever you use it. Watch out for water though if your storing your boat with no fuel in it :)

Sam

Kerry
23-10-2004, 05:06 AM
DR, dulution (adding PULP in a reasonable proportion) is probably the second best method next to keeping tanks basically as low as possible when not being used.

Tolulene is generally what can be added to fuel in this instance BUT just how much (or to much) is enough of an unknown question to avoid adding octane boosters. The off the shelf car type octane boosters I wouldn't be putting anywhere near my motors anyway.

Cheers, Kerry.

snapperhead
23-10-2004, 11:15 AM
Kerry,
please explain how this premium fuel can continue to burn in a cyclinder that is now void of oxygen. i would imagine it would remain in the cylinder the same as regualar unleaded if the engine is not tuned correctly and is reciving to much fuel thus cooling the cylinder.

This is surley a great fuel (priemium) if it can burn hotter and longer then standard unleaded given the same quantity of oxygen.

Kerry
23-10-2004, 02:55 PM
Well that's what PULP does and that's why it suits high compression engines, most outboards are not high compression motors and if the fuel burns differently and the engine is not timed properly to burn that fuel then the cycle and the burn rate is simple not a match.

But it's really simple it's your engine and you can burn what ever great fuel you like and frankly it doesn't worry me if your engine likes it or not, it's your choice so do whatever takes your fancy.

Really starting to get jack of all this crap about fuel so quite frankly burn what you bloody well like, as it's obvious that some wouldn't know and some simply don't care.

Cheers, Kerry.

snapperhead
23-10-2004, 04:24 PM
High compression what is an example of a high compression petrol engine....find me a low compression 2 stroke. Basically PULP is a denser fuel and you would need less of it. It will burn longer not hotter as you would need more oxygen for that. Therfore a longer burn will produce more tourque. In a carby engine you would have to change your jetting (leaner as you require less) and in a fuel injected engine the computer use info from air-flom meter and lambda/ oxygen sensor to maintain a suitable air / fuel ratio. With correct tuning of any petrol engine you will benifit from PULP without any adverse effects on engine internals. It might be in people's best interest to research this for themselves AS THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. ;D

Kerry
23-10-2004, 05:33 PM
Then I suggest THEY go and find it.

Now the FACT that higher octane fuels actually have less energy is really going to confuse some when they actually find the facts but then that's where the compression comes into things but then who gives a rats, it's your engine, it's your $$'s, it's your decision so go for it, do what ever feels good, I really couldn't care less #:P


Cheers, Kerry.

jimnbob
23-10-2004, 05:44 PM
Snapperhead

Disagree with you slightly.

Petrol (in general terms) is made up with hydrocarbons of which there are two major components - Heptane (has 7 carbon atoms) and Octane (has 8 carbon atoms). Now heptane cannot stand much compression before spontaneous ignition occurs ie like a diesel engine operates. The octane rating of a fuel is a measure of the percentage of Octane in the fuel ie Unleaded (ULP) has an octane rating of 91 and Premium Unleaded (PULP) has an octane rating of 95.

The discussion of compression ratio now comes into effect such that yes you can put PULP into a "low compression" engine, however using a ULP in a "high compression" engine (read turbocharged) engine is likly to result in pinging ie the engine starts to behave like a diesel and ignite before the spark plug sparks.

Density is higher for PULP because more of the molecules have 8 carbon atoms than ULP, however the hotter burning issue is not about the big engine temperature position, but the temperature of the flame at the spark plug, on top of the piston at the time of the explosion and the rate at which the flame travels within the cylinder space. The dangers of hot burning are burnng out spark plugs, melting pistons, valve damage and the like. All quite serious issues.

As most outboards are naturally aspirated engines, they are designed to run on ULP, and if you look at typical fuel company (read half highway robbers - the feds are the other half) fuel specs, they say the shelf life for PULP and ULP is 12 months, however they also say that there is seasonal variation to aid cold weather starting. The way I read this is that if I am filling my tank every 2 months (say 4months at the outside) in QLD i have no issue with stale fuel and do not and will not be using PULP.


Jim (mechanical engineer) and Bob the deckie

NQCairns
24-10-2004, 06:24 AM
Here you go, just to confuse the situation a bit more 8). It makes sense to me at least.

PULP and ULP is exactly the same fuel straight from the same vat/refinery any refinery for any brand. This base fuel all made to the same specs is then parted out to whoever wants it. Then peter the Shell worker somewhere in the country with a batch of Mobil refinery base fuel (ULP?) goes out back and finds the additve bottle marked 'top secret shell PULP formula' and adds that. Just like magic the batch is now shell pulp.

Just a note: the outboard gurus in the US say almost always to use the octane the motor is speced for, they also say that given time the additives in pulp etc will damage motors not designed to run on it, this is especially true now days because our fuel is now a rubbish standard compared to the old days, no cross comparison can be made between the old super and todays PULP, Pulp does not hold any of the 'natural' traits super had. Pulp is now forced to do the job with special additives and these additives are what hurts our engines. Dont run it straight unless the engine can use it, it might give better idle and low speed response but when the rpm increases it burns to slow in low compession engines therefore the piston has opened the exhaust port or a valve in 4st before the fuel gave it's all. I would use a 50:50 mix every now and then just to allow some of the additves to clean but no more often than that.
But what do I know, advice is like bumholes on the net, and most of this over my head anyway, wish the fuel companys could lie straight in bed. cheers nq

mulletguts
25-10-2004, 07:57 AM
jimnbob a forced induction engine is a low compression engine lower than that of a naturally aspirated engine.Were it achieves greater cylinder pressures is through it's ability to achieve 100% or greater volumetric effiency once whatever is forcing it's induction starts to make boost pressure. Just thought i clear that up in case someone does a compression test on there turbo/supercharged engine and thinks it's stuffed because the Suzuki Swift has more compression than there turbo/supercharged engine has.

CHEERS Mulletguts Diesel Fitter/HCV Mechanic

BigE
25-10-2004, 02:41 PM
my vn dunny door has 480 000 k's all on pulp never had an injector problem never burnt a valve never done a head gasket runs like a charm. and i never fill at a indepent or coles servo. i had a 15hp johno on a punt for over a decade which ran on pulp 90% of the time no prob's i now run my 25 hp f/s yammie on pulp for over a year no prob's..... i do know pulp does go off after about 2mths (had a broken leg and arm found it hard to pull the anchor,cast.bait hooks & fillet) but so does ulp after a while......(spend my 2 cents wisely grasshopper) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Fletch
10-11-2004, 09:43 AM
Guys,

I have read the regular vs premium debate ad nauseum so I decided to contact some of the experts to see their thoughts.

Shell's response was as follows:

David,

There has been some incidences of problem occuring when Shell's top level Optimax (98 ron) fuel is used in outboards, however this is not due to the fuel burning hotter, but because Optimax has a higher density than standard fuels. Outboards run cooler than most other engine types, due to constant flow cooling systems, and because of this the fuel-air charge inducted into the engine is often incompletely burnt, which can lead to carbon built up on the spark plugs. The same problem can occur with Shell's Premium Unleaded (96 ron), but will occur to a lesser degree as its density if closer to that of standard unleaded

This does not affect most electronic injection type engines, as these will automatically adjust the mixture to account for the increased density of the fuel. The problem can often be solved by fitting hotter spark plugs to the engine, increasing the running temperature, but this does not work in all cases.

regards

Shell TAC

Anyway, I hope this provides some help.

Fletch

Cheech
10-11-2004, 03:32 PM
Good work fletch, I have been on the premium side for ages ever since I got a batch of less than perfect regular.

But now that I have an new boat that guzzles, I will have to settle for regular.

But having said that,,,,, if I get better economy and performance from premium, and then get the hotter plugs,,,, hmmmm interesting thought.

Like some have mentioned, if you do go regular, then just make sure it is not ethanol added. Most of the original petrol stations are ok I think. Just need to be careful with the other no name stations.

blaze
10-11-2004, 04:05 PM
I would run the fuel recomended by the manufacture of the outboard, which seems to be ulp for most engines. I WOULD NOT put a hotter spark plug in because it WILL melt the top of the piston (been there and done that)
cheers
blaze
ps
if the cost of fuel for an o/board is to dear, maybe a smaller boat is in order.

Jusel
10-11-2004, 04:48 PM
In Short:

If your engine is fuel injected and fitted with a knock sensor it will retune itself when running PULP resulting in better performance/reduced consumption.

If the engine doesn't have a knock sensor you will get no tangible benefit from using fuel with an Ocatne rating higher than the manufactures recommendation

NQCairns
10-11-2004, 05:05 PM
Yeah listen to Blaze and Jusel that shell reply has danger written all over it, believe it or not they are not the application experts, they are sales/marketing/legal experts it's what it does not say that is the problem.
One of the big fuel companys waited until light aircraft were literally falling out of the sky in the US before it admitted to knowledge relating to it's oil!! Dont forget the thousands of people who stuffed up their diesel fuel systems in Australia because of fuel company lies. Unless a person can absorb a protracted civil suit or the aust equiv costs, treat what they say with caution. Fuel companys can speak with forked tongues no problem.

littlejim
11-11-2004, 01:27 PM
I like the thinking behind getting rid of the 2 month old boat fuel because it might shag the 4 stroke boat engine.
Put it in the tank of the car for its 4 stroke engine. it'll be OK.(?)

NQCairns
11-11-2004, 04:08 PM
Hi littlejim you are pretty safe running the 4stroke outboad on 2 month old fuel it will just start playing up or losing full performance without any of the bad 2stroke negatives although I wouldnt expect it at even 6 months in your engine unless contaminated with water. By all means throw it in the car if you want to be that much safer, not long ago I started a fuel injected car that had had not been run for 2 years (original fuel)and it started and idled well once it got warm. That fuel would kill a 2 stroke in 5 minutes but no harm in the 4 stroke car. nq

snapperhead
11-11-2004, 09:37 PM
yes littlejim ??? ??? 2 stroke 4 stroke high compression low compression...makes me laugh ;D oh the effects of leaded fuel

Kerry
12-11-2004, 03:43 PM
Got some questions for those that think they know ;D

1) Who is going to cover your engine warranty if one uses the wrong fuel? Oil companies ::) yeah right, wrong answer.

2) Why is there "different" fuel types on the market :-X

3) Why aren't all engines the same ;)

Cheers, Kerry.

Fletch
12-11-2004, 09:34 PM
Kerry,

I actually have a degree in chemical engineering with a major in petrochemicals, so forgive me if I feel this qualifies me to comment on fuels, the fact that I spent time working with Caltex developing fuel probably did not hurt either. In any case, I do not claim to know anything about Outboard Motors or the interaction of the various fuel blends with outboard motors and hence I asked the industry if there was any impact. It may interest you to know that Yamaha actually have this on their website:

2. Will I cause any damage to my outboard if premium unleaded or high-energy fuels are used?



No. However, if you encounter any running problems as a result of using such fuels, change back to standard unleaded (91-93 ron).

And not being a Lawyer, (although I am sure that one as wise as you has prosecuted his fair share of liability cases), I would think that this statement alone would suggest that Yamaha may cover the warranty (considering they make the motor).

As for the other questions, if you are such a genius, why do you need to ask???

Fletch.

Fletch
13-11-2004, 04:29 AM
Kerry,

Just for your info...Mercury also replied to my questions please see below:

Mr. Fletcher,

Thank you for the email regarding your questions on your Mercury 115hp 4-stroke engines. We appreciate the opportunity to respond to your concerns.

The minimum requirement is 87 octane fuel. If you want to run a higher grade fuel it is okay. The higher fuel grade is not going to cause any issues with your engines.

We hope this information is helpful to you.

Surprisingly, they do not seem to think there is a problem, maybe you should consult to them to ensure their organisation is up to date on the impacts of the dreaeded premium unleaded...if you like I will put forward a recommendation for your???

How about we just stick to the facts when offering advice, as much as I enjoy reading your insightful comments, and God knows you always seem to have some, most of us run our outboards in the real world, not in Kerryland.

Fletch

Kerry
13-11-2004, 05:43 AM
2. #Will I cause any damage to my outboard if premium unleaded or high-energy fuels are used? #

No. However, if you encounter any running problems as a result of using such fuels, change back to standard unleaded (91-93 ron).

So Fletch as usual the good old double shuffle two-step "encounter any running problems" like what type of "running problems"? Like why is that generic answers like this mean absolutely ziltch.

AND if one does encounter "running problems" (whatever these might be? or only known after it's way too late #>:() the fix is to change back to standard then why not run the standard stuff in the first place. Like what's the point of using "high energy" fuels in motors that aren't high energy.
#

....As for the other questions, if you are such a genius, why do you need to ask....

So one would think that those who are supposed to have some background would have some answers (well most would think so ;)), instead of more questions and duck diving.

You got answers or not? if not then simply say nothing or speak up and say you haven't.

So hust for your benefit Fletch those questions again are

1) Who is going to cover your engine warranty if one uses the wrong fuel? Oil companies # yeah right, wrong answer. And we can add to this, if as you mention Yamaha (in your example) do you actually have that in writing or simply making assumptions?

2) Why is there "different" fuel types on the market #

3) Why aren't all engines the same #


And one could also add the good old "aged fuel" issue, which of course now in hindsight we now know the fuel manufacturers were passing the buck and denying this for many years.

So if you've got some facts Fletch then lets hear them, facts which can be backed up not simply hear say for convienience sake.

Cheers, Kerry.

Cheech
13-11-2004, 04:33 PM
Look guys,,,, I really hesitated to put this post up as I am on my third glass of Chardy, but problably because of that I couldn't resist...

It is great to hear from experts in the field. Thanks Fletch.

Kerry,, we all appreciate your input. You have some great advice on a lot of things. Particularly GPS related. Please don't stop contributing as we at times put up posts hoping that you will contribute.

But please,, chilll!!! You don't have to win every argument. We will not think less of you if someone contributes a view that differs from your view. There does not always have to be a winner. After all, this is a chat site, so can it just be a chat, rather than a challenge.

Anyway, I'm off to top up my wine glass.

Cheech

jimnbob
13-11-2004, 05:19 PM
Cheech

Well said.

Kerry

Why aren't all engines the same? Well different users have differnt needs and so there are numerous types of engines and fuels in use.

2 stroke petrol engines really took off with the lightweight and therfore high power to weight ratio motorcycles some 40 odd years ago. Their advantage is their simplicity, and therefore light weight, and their ability to respond quickly to throttle.

Likewise the difference between petrol and diesel.

What your are asking is why doesn't everyone drive around in a Leyland P76, all painted grey, towing a timber boat powered by canvas sails.

Differnt power plants, different fuels - that's the time we live in.

Jim

Kerry
13-11-2004, 06:00 PM
....Differnt power plants, different fuels - that's the time we live in....

Yes mate I do think your on to something there, different fuels for different power plants :D now why didn't I think of that 8)

You know that's almost like saying premium is a waste of time in an engine that doesn't use it, hey ;D

Now Cheech if any of this has anything to simply do with winning arguments then obviously some certainly need another refill ;) (or 3)

Cheers, Kerry.

Fletch
13-11-2004, 07:48 PM
Cheech,

Nice comments my friend...I have reread my post and Kerry, apologies for the tone...I must have been in a bad mood. :-[

Interestingly, some of the biggest reasons for different fuels are environmental impact, marketing and product differentiation!

I really do not believe that there is a huge benefit in running Premium, it is cleaner and does provide more energy in an engine that will allow it to do so, I know in my car I get much better milleage, but when you do the sums 9c/L in additional cost far outways this benefit...maybe I am just a sucker.

Just for clarity, my motors are Mercury Motors, the power plant from which is a Yamaha, The comments from Mercury did state that I WILL HAVE NO PROBLEMS running Premium, I am not sure if other engines will.

In any case, if fuel keeps going up, I to will be back with unleaded...Interestingly enough, my motors are designed to run on 87 RON, so is the regular unleaded that we have available here, also going to cause issues (not being a smart arse, just wondering about other opinions, because, to my knowledge, we can not buy 87 RON (atleast not where I purchase from)? ANd would this also mean that Mercury should not warrant any motors in Australia, as they are designed for a minimum of 87 RON, I realise it says minimum, but if it is ok to run 91-93 RON then why not 96 RON, reasonable question, I think. Anyway, please throw in your two bobs worth, Kerry, I promise I will not jump down your throat :-)

Fletch.

snapperhead
13-11-2004, 11:22 PM
fletch glad you have the patience. Never remember saying it is the most economical be all to end all fuel solution for your outboard situation. But comments like premium fuel will still be burning after BDC causing damage are crap and mechanicaly impossible. Still would love to see premium burning after BDC with the big afterburner out of the engine cowl and I'm sure you can argue it dose kerry but it simply cannot unless you have a serious timing problem. like a famous author once wrote "I don't give a rats burn what you want" I agree. When you re- write the text book on the workings of a internal combustion engine send me a copy it would be a great read and include a chapter on LPG/unleaded engines to should be interesting.
Love your last paragraph Fletch keep up the good work.

Kerry
14-11-2004, 04:26 AM
I promise I will not jump down your throat Fletch not a problem I take things as they come, however they come.

Anyway lets simply use a few statements/questions and see what type of reaction/argument for or against there is.

1) Are outboard engines (apart from some of the top end highly strung racing stuff) classed as high performance (high compression) engines?

2) Does the octane rating indicate the rate of burn eg The higher the octane rating the slower the burn?

3) Is the intent of every engine manufacturer to have their engines do a complete fuel burn during each and every cycle.

4) If all fuel available was not consumded by the engine then would be be classed as bad economy and waste of energy?

5) Where do carbon deposits come from? Well we would all have to agree unburnt fuel ;D right? And of course everybody should realize this as the cause of pre-ignition and engine knock.

The next time a car breezes past and it smells like eggs then that's basically money down the exhaust pipe, basically unburnt fuel and generally indicates (the waste of) a high octane fuel.

6) And somewhere in all of this one has to differentiate between carb and injected engines?

Cheers, Kerry.

NQCairns
14-11-2004, 12:30 PM
For anyone intersted in expanding their knowledge on the subject.
Here is a one small post that fits the discussion
http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=036223#000007
Take particular not of Dhadly, that guy is an outboard motor guru, on this site other quality names are Rodbolt and JB. Anything any of these guys say IS HOW IT IS full stop, no crapola.
A search on this site pulls a full weeks worth of octane and exhaust gas temperature etc etc reading. I am sure we near mirror the US fuels here.
Another site is
www.scream and fly.com
This place is full of racers, a search here is is great for real world facts on the subject.nq

Black_Rat
14-11-2004, 03:43 PM
At the end of the day use the fuel advised in the manual [smiley=idea.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Then if anything should go wrong ? There is no come back (fuel related wise) ! SIMPLE. IMHO.
Damo.

Kerry
14-11-2004, 04:53 PM
At the end of the day use the fuel advised in the manual [smiley=idea.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Then if anything should go wrong ? There is no come back (fuel related wise) ! SIMPLE. IMHO.
Damo.

Yes and that just about sums this issue up [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]. Very hard to comprehend the reasons why there's some that don't follow this very straight forward principle [smiley=2thumbsup.gif].

And of course can't let the fuel companies off the hook either as they dug their own hole years ago and anybody who would trust a fuel companies would have to have rats (no offence to you Black_rat) in their head.

Once saw more than a dozen outboard motors all sitting lined up on a bench, different makes, different models (but mostly 70-90's and above) but all with an identical problem (top knocked out of #1) and yet the denials (back then) were coming quick and fast but as we know these days (hindsight is such a wonderful thing :D) it all had to do with the life of ULP.

Publically the response was as "directed" (both fuel and outbaord reps) but even back then get those who knew to one side and the answer was also the same :o, don't ya just love some of the crap that spews forth and multiply's ;D.

Cheers, Kerry.