Porpoising Hornets?

[435_Mark]

G'day,
I keep hearing rumours about a website that has a lot of information on Hornets and their problems with porpoising, particularly the 435's and 445's. Does anyone know of this website or am I running into an urban myth?

Cheers,

Mark

[banshee]

I saw something like that on sportsfish a while back.

[gunna]

Try these. #Its enough to put me off buying one #:o :o Make sure you read all 9 pages of the middle one.

http://www.sportsfish.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23265&FORUM_ID=44&CAT_ID=13

http://www.sportsfish.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18509&FORUM_ID=44&CAT_ID=13


http://www.sportsfish.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20880&FORUM_ID=44&CAT_ID=13

[blaze]

good read

[Jono_SS]

hey 435_Mark, I know a guy who also has had trouble with a porpoising hornet recently, perhaps you could start a club (funninly enough his name was Mark also). I think Quintrex have been making some changes to his hull.

[Barrymundi]

I have owned a 3.9 and a 455.

Both were 100% great, Porpoising no problem.

Boat trimmed properly and loaded correctly. Foils helped.

Al

[robman]

Hi Team, I have a 445 about 5 months old now and 16 hours up. I has the almost regulation 60 HP 4 stroke on the back. This rigg will not porpoise , you can trim it right out at WOT and it pulls 6000 rps and flys. I have been in three other hornets that are older than mine and they all pig root like a bitch, if they were mine i would have an open line bagging Quintex until something was done about it. According to the dealer I got my boat through Quintex have changed the hulls a bit. Mine does not appear to have as much of a banana (from bow to stern) in the hull as the older ones do. I could not be happier with my boat it is truely sensational. I have posted a photo in the boat section. As a side issue I wonder if some of the problem is from inexperienced dealers puting the riggs together. I think it must be criticle to get everthing working in perfect balance, one small thing wrong and you have a major problem on your hands.
Regards Robman

[macca]

I own a 445 Hornet with a 60 HP also.

It does porpoise a little, but I can trim it out to 3 Bars on the gauge pull 5800 revs and do 60 kph.

It fly's, I have found though when going into the wind, the hull does tend to lift a bit more and I think this may contribute to the porpoising.

However as other posters have said if you get the weight and balance thing right I don't have that much trouble.

Mine looks great and is a great platform to fish from, very comfortable and plenty of storage.

I wouldn't swap mine for anything else, I love it.

Macca

[flytime]

Gunna,
READ the whole lot, seems to be in the old shaped model hornets. Thanks for the information. :)
Mark_435,
I also own a new 445 hornet that is two months old.It's the best boat i've ever bought.It has a 60 4 stroke on it as well. They seem to be sensitive to motor height, prop size and trim. Mine has a 11 x 3/8 12G prop on it with a SE 200 foil and i have had no problems with porposing in mine.I can trim it out to level 4 on the trim gauge and get 6100 revs at 36 mph.I do a lot of flyfishing in mine a it's great with everything under the floor and its stable and comfortable to ride in.
As Macca said "I WOULDN'T SWAP MINE FOR ANYTHING ELSE, I LOVE IT!!!
Steve #:)

[bassfanatic5]

Hi 435mark,
I have done a lot of prop testing on my new 445 and 50 etec. I found that running a 13 7/8 x 15'' pitch the hornet wanted to porpoise at 6000rpm and first bar on trim gauge. With a 13 7/8 x 17'' pitch at 6000rpm and full trim there is not a hint of porpoise just a little bit of chine walk. I could not believe the differance a larger prop made to the boat.
Cheers Damien

[aussiebasser]

Hornets seem to respond well to a prop with more rake, whatever the pitch. Rake gives superior lift and that's what's needed to keep the air under the hull. Hornets will also be noticably faster on slightly choppy water than on dead calm.

[Barrymundi]

The prop is a key part. I purchased a replacement prop from Solas and the boat would not get out of the hole quick enough and would cavitate on turns. I called Solas and the first question he asked was if I had a Hornet. I returned the prop and he put more cup in the blade and it was better than the original setup.

If anybody has a Porpoising Hornet they want to sell give me a call. I will buy it.

Al

[bassfanatic5]

Aussiebasser you hit the nail on the head. The prop i settled on was an SST Raker that my dealer recomended for the hornet. Cheers Damien

[lordy]

Hornets seem to respond well to a prop with more rake, whatever the pitch. Rake gives superior lift and that's what's needed to keep the air under the hull. Hornets will also be noticably faster on slightly choppy water than on dead calm.


Do Quintrex instruct the dealers on the right props to sell the Hornets with because that would save a lot of hassle and the slow down porpoising reputation. If the punter went against advice from Quntrex/dealer on the recommneded prop they have no one else to blame but themselves if the props the problem. Seems to be a communication breakdown somewhere.

[Strewth]

You have hit the nail on the head Lordy. I have a 2 year old 445 that will porpoise once it is trimmed beyond about 2.5 bars. It is fitted with the standard prop for the 60HP 4st Yammie. Have tried different weight distributions without much joy. Raising the motor a notch helped a bit, but causes cavitation on sharp turns.

Can anyone be more specific about the ideal prop size/pitch/rake for a 445 with a 60 HP Yammie?

[aussiebasser]

I think some of you guys are missing the point a bit. Any planing boat can be made to porpoise. Yes, any boat! Too much trim is a classic cause. Trim is there to even out the boat longitudinally, one by product of this can be more speed, if, and only if, the power and propeller pitch are suitable.
Obviously Quintrex cannot advise on prop selection, as they have no input into motor fitment, weight distribution, or driver experience, not to mention horsepower fitted, and owner expectation. Are we all not expecting a little bit much from a 4.3 metre tinnie??? I can get my Hornet to porpoise, quite easily, but how many 4.3 metre tinnies were designed to carry 3 deep cycle batteries, 30 litres of fuel and 70lts of water in the live well.
Don't trim it out so much, and it won't porpoise, the solution is simple.

[phewy]

Making sense there aussie. Trimming it out to the max and beyond for that little bit of all so important extra speed...... ::)

[aussiebasser]

Another way to get more speed, if you want it, is to fit a hydraulic jacking plate between the motor and transom. This will slow you down out of the hole, but give more speed at the top end. The only problems involved in this are
1. $4000
2. Weight, we're all running on pretty close to maximum now so the additional weight will put us over the limit of allowable transom weight.

Easier still, is to trade our Hornets on a Whiz Bang glass boat with a couple of hundred horsepower. Trouble is, then it will be a pig on most Queensland impoundments, as they have a 40 knot speed limit, (Somerset is exempt I think)
Ask a yank basser how his Triton/Bullet goes at 40 knots, and you'd be better off in a Hornet.

I've had my tiller steer Hornet doing a touch over 40mph, and trust me, you don't want to go that fast, it's bloody scarey.

[lordy]

Obviously Quintrex cannot advise on prop selection, as they have no input into motor fitment, weight distribution, or driver experience, not to mention horsepower fitted, and owner expectation. #


I don't know about that. Surely the dealers should be given recommendations about how and what to try when they sign up to be dealers. Or do Quintrex just send them the boats and forget about them until there is a problem? If I had someone selling my products I'd want to be sure they knew what to do to make them run at their peak.

[Sniper]

I've owned a 435 Hornet Trophy for nearly 3 years now. Never had a problem with it porpoising. Never reall tried to make it porpoise though. Its got a 40hp 4 stroke Merc on the back and fly's. Like Aussiebasser said, who has the same hull I think, (saw it up at Borumba last year with Jason from that used to work at Caloundra City Powerboats), if you want more speed, get a yank boat. I've clocked just under 38 knots with the prop that it can with. Have also been in a few 475 Hornet Balance boats and those things fly. One was John Schofield's boat and the other Tim Morgan's old Hornet. Both are weapons on the water and that is my next Hornet (when the wallet lets me). Well thats my 2 cents worth.
Happy boating fellow Hornet owners
Bill
[smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif]
P.S. If you see a 435 Hornet with bullet holes in it, say g'day.

[435_Mark]

Just thought I would give a bit of a fill in on the background and the final outcome of my porpoising hornet.

The boat:
I ordered the hull in November 2002 and picked it up from Sundown in Feb 2003. I bought an empty hull with floor frames, casting deck frame, extruded gunnels and hornet console. Had a mate weld the mods as per my specs. Very similar to the hornet trophy but the seating is further back and it has a larger casting deck, two live wells and 50l underfloor fuel tank. There was no rush as I still had 2 other boats at home. The welding was finished in December 2003. I fitted a 50HP yamy 4 stroke, electrics, pumps, lights etc.etc. Spared no expense, all wire is double insuluated tinned twin core, all crimps are waterproof.... you get the picture. Launched the boat at spinnaker on Jan 24th 2004 and headed out to catch a few spotties.

Performance: The worst boat I had ever been in, EVER. It was impossible to keep the nose of the boat in the water. You can talk about trimming in and props till the cows come home but this thing was borderline dangerous. I'm a light marine mechaninc by trade and worked in the industry for 18 years before getting out. I've done race setups and I do know how to set a boat up. I was completely devastated by how bad this thing was. Ever been to Sea World and seen the clown driving that bathtup that porpoises it's way around the lake? This was worse then that! The hull was so badly shaped that you couldn't get the boat off the trailer. It would slide back a metre and then jam on the bilge pads. The only way to get it off was to drop the bilge pad or sink the trailer. Put it back on the trailer and stopped at Sundown on the way home. Spoke to Keith and he rang Quintrex while I was there. Organised to take the boat down on the Tuesday. Well that was the start of a long and very sad story.

I kept a log of every phone call and every e-mail and it runs to 14 pages over nearly 12 months. A very brief synopsis is:
Quintrex supply a foil and wedges which I fitted for a negligable result. June 2004 Quintrex take the hull back and strip it to repress the hull shape. The boat was to be ready in 5 days, by my recollection it was closer to 5 weeks (I would have to look up my log). Got the hull back, complete with new ribs and floor frames and a heap of damages such as: damaged prop, trailer covered in salt where it had been sunk and not washed, muddy footprints etched into the galvanising of the trailer from same, broken reflector, cracked lenses on the waterproof trailer lights, floor was moved so that I couldn't get the filler cap off the underfloor fuel tank, all the low profile nylon hinges on the hatches on the casting platform replaced with stainless steel..... Well you get the idea.

The Kicker:
The boat sat for about 6 weeks before I did a trip to Peel chasing squire on soft plastics. Filled the tank for the first time since I had got the boat back and spilled a bit of fuel around the filler. Noticed that it was a bit smelly but didn't think anything of it. Gave it a good wash when I got home and put the tarp over the whole thing. 6 weeks later I got the boat out to do a comp at somerset and the whole boat reeked of fuel - to cut a long story short the tank had been cracked at the vent pipe and 20 litres of fuel was now missing from the tank lying in the bottom of the boat. Quintrex repaired the tank. But did not reimburse me for the fuel, my time or replace the carpet which is now completely stuffed from sitting in a fuel filled fume tent for 6 weeks. Their answer was "it's not our carpet and we won't warranty it".

The BIG question: How does it go now? Like an absolute train. I can trim this boat out completely, I have picked up 15km/hr from 38km/hr to a top speed of 53km/hr and it is brilliant. If I had gotten this performance at the start I would never have had a complaint. The DESIGN, when manufactured correctly, is great. However, the workmanship and the whole warranty process you have to go through to get anything done is truly appalling. You have to constantly chase them up and there is no sign of an apology at any stage.
AT the end of the day, if you have a hornet and it porpoises GET Quintrex TO FIX IT. HORNETS DO NOT PORPOISE if they are made correctly. Fitting special props and foils and wedges should not be needed.

Cheers,

Mark

[NQCairns]

Bassfanatic5 you experienced the great difference between a prop with some bow lift and one with sternlift or neutral (somewhat), amazing what difference the right prop makes to handleing even without a change in rpm. Good to read your experiences.
If all porpoising hornet ownwers with the hull in spec (not a friday built)stopped moving weight around and ran a few different brand/style props they would no longer have a porposing hornet, without a prop that induces enough bow lift, overwhelmingly only those boats with hooks, cabins etc wouldn't porpoise at some speed.
Why doesn't Quintrex spend the time testing then recommending some options? must have something to do with keeping the inuendo quiet and away from the point of sale, but most boats will do it if equiped badly!nq

[Big_Kev]

Porpoising Hornet? LOL
This seems to be a familiar story.
At least Quintrex have recognised it, and as long as you can complain hard enough they will fix it.

[flytime]

Mark,
I have a hornet also and had miner problems and quintrex were quick and responsive in rectifcation. However the dealers in which you have mentioned will never , repeat never, see any bussiness from myself and others again. It's about the same as you were treated.
But after all the mess was settled i'm more than happy with the performance with my hornet.
Happy fishing steve :)

[435_Mark]

Steve,
I have to say that (finally) I am rapt in the performance of mine as well. It is stable (unbelievably so), and handles Moreton Bay chop better then my 16ft Seafarer Venus did (a great boat in it's own right). I've already had it up the top end at Borolloola NT, offshore from Caloundra, in various dams, and in the bay.
I guess my main message is "Don't let the ####'s get away with selling you a dud" I have spoken to a few hornet owners and one bloke said "Mate, they all porpoise!". Mine doesn't anymore and I can get full trim if the conditions allow with an SE sport 200 foil (supplied by Quintrex) and a standard alloy prop. If you own a Hornet and it is not performing take it back. There is no way in the world an owner should have to fork out dollars (props, foils etc) to fix a manufacturing fault. They know how to fix the problem and I can't believe that there are any out there that could have been worse then mine.
Now if that bldy wind would stop I'll go chase some spotties!

Cheers,

Mark

[DNO40]

I Have a 475 Hornet trophy and have never had a problem. I have heard some stories about porpoising hornets but as you have stated this is mostly a manufacturing fault. I am really happy with mine with a Yamaha 60 / 4St on the back. It is good to see that there are some good stories also on the hornet, I have had a lot of people over time tell me that Hornets are this and hornets are that, but I am Glad that I chose the Hornet.....Couldn't be happier, very stable for the family and good for all that i can throw at it. I have had this one for 8 Months and have done 80 hours, I think that is trail enough.

[435_Mark]

CQ,
Mate of mine has a 5metre and it is a ripper. All of the problems I have heard of have been with the 435's and 445's. I don't know anyone personally that has had a problem with the larger ones. Part of the problems with the smaller boats is occurred when they went to the 3mm bottoms. The dies they used to stretch the 2mm plate over couldn't be used for the 3mm plate so they used the dies off a larger boat. If that isn't an example of the great aussie tradition of "she'll be right mate" nothing is! Once they got the new dies sorted out a lot of the problems disapeared. Unfortunately for those of us who bought the hulls in the meantime we were stuck with hulls that didn't perform as well as the previous hulls with the 2mm bottoms. Typical of big business ethics isn't it. In the later hulls the chine runs parallel with the side pressings. In contrast my hull (and the others with the same problem) the distance between the chine and the gunnel is larger at the front of the boat then at the back.