Engines?? Need advice

[Kiktz]

Hi Guys,

I am posting this up for a mate who is looking at buying a new boat around 6mtrs. Glass or plate he hasn't quite made up his mind.

He has asked me about what engine he should be getting. ???

My thoughts re engines are like this (From the very little I know)
If I was to buy a 2 stroke I would look at the Optimax due its good fuel econemy and strong proformance and not having heard alot about other 2 strokers.

If I was to look at a 4 stroke, Suzuki, Yamaha or Mercury.

The guts of the question my mate would like to know is.
If the boat was recommended to have a 150hp and the max HP of the vessel was 200hp. Would you stay with a 150hp 2 and/or 4 stroke engine OR would you be more inclined to get a slightly larger 4 stroke to counter act any lag that you may get whilst getting the boat to plane.

Personally I would go the larger 4 stroke!!!(175/200HP)
But alot more of you guys know a lot more than me. So your thoughts and comments would be great.


Thanks kiktz

[finga64]

GO BIG 4 stroke!!! ;D That is as big as he can afford safely.
What about the Honda 4's?? ???
Wait and talk to the boat manufacture that he decides upon, go for a test ride in the boat and see the actual performance of the motor on the boat he's going to get 'cause every boats needs are different.

[Kerry]

It's not only a horsepower consideration but a weight consideration and without knowing all the info then any suggestions are really irrelevant.

Not simply a horsepower thing anymore.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Kiktz]

Kerry

I put both hands up when I am unsure, My mate is asking me is there like any rule of thumb when buying a new boat that you should adhere to? RE(Engine wise).

From what he is being told the Optimax is a good engine with better fuel economy than 2 strokers but not as good as a 4 stroke.
My thoughts being that he will use the boat more for the bay and outside than the rivers.
So not trying to give yourself any range or power limitation I would opt for the four stroke and then on top of that to compensate for any lag that you may or may not insure, step up a little in the HP department.

I know its a hard one not knowing all the ins and outs. He is in the market and he knows what he is looking for boat wise (size and shape so to speak) and I all he is trying to do is get it right the first time by narrowing the field down to what is going to suit him / the boat.

This is the first new boat he has ever owned so I thought a few of you guys with a hell of a lot more experience would have some helpful advice.

Thanks Kiktz

[Glind]

A 150hp engine whether 2 or 4 stroke will produce 150hp. How it does it is an issue. However, the new 4 strokes do not really have a lag problem associated with hole shot. EFI 4 strokes have virtually eliminated this. I have driven some of the larger Yammies and Suzukis and when you tromp them they go.
So my advice is to get the biggest outboard, beit a 2 or 4 stroke the bloke can afford. It is better to have a bit more power that not enough.
Tim

[basserman]

one thing to bear in mind is that with four stokes there is a gap with 150hp then next largest size is a 200hp
wheres 2stokes do have 150ho 175hp and 200hp :-/
i'm waiting and hopeing for a 175hp 4stroke soon as i myself is looking at a 21footer
not sure of haveing as little power as 140-150hp and not really wanting to go as big as 200-225hp and i myself is not keep on the optimax or hpdi 2stroks as they are still 2strokes ::)

[Kerry]

Kiktz, Glass or Plate #??? then that decision could make a difference in the final washup.

In any case one is still going to have to comply to both HP AND weight considerations.

For my money I might/could say maximum HP rec for many boats can be a little over the top and sales people appear to dwell more on this speed thing, which really is totally irrelevant than "proper" all round performance.

With many boats over HP can be a complete waste of space but unless one has a particular boat in mind then it's really only an academic question with assumptions.

Cheers, Kerry.

[dfox]

Basser- what about the honda 175 mate?

[Sportfish_5]

Basser - I thought you just bought a 140 Suzi for your Southwind ???

[Kiktz]

Cheers Guys,

Kerry Thanks for your thoughts, I have printed this out to givve to my mate as to try and help him along. I am sure that you guys will be hearing a lil more about this when he gets closer to buying.

Tim_N & Basserman,

Tim, One of my mates have a brand spanker Suzuki 250hp on a Fisher, Totally agree that one thing they do well is move. Thanks for the info re the efi Didn't know that.

Basserman, Me I would go the 200hp on most 6mtr to 7mtr boats. Yes for some it would be too much but others it is going to suit to a T.
I was under the same impression re the opimax. But a few guys that I know that have the the opimax think they are the ducks nutz, re fuel and proformance.

Any way the rum is a callin, any more advise pls send it this way as I thin we are going to need it

[basserman]

option on is a vision21 from allison but option two is to repower the southwind with a suziku 140

foxie i must of had my eyes shut a few weeks ago when i looked at thier site but yeh had a look then and saw it [smiley=dunce.gif]
sure is a gap in the market for a 175 four banger ;D

[whichway]

A topic very close to my heart.

Make Hp Type Weight
John 150 2 177
John 175 2 177
Merc 175 Opti 195
Yam 175 2 198
Yam 200 2 198
Merc 200 2 218
Yam 150 4 220
Hond 150 4 220
Yam 175 DI 220
Yam 200 DI 220
Merc 200 Opti 225
Evin 200 Etec 234
John 200 4 263
Suzi 200 4 263
Yamy 200 4 269
Hond 175 4 277


I've got a Evin 175 2 st and as you can see, its got the best power to weight ratio by far (same as Johnno).

The Honda 175 is 100kg heavier!!

Problem with the 2 stroke is fumes and poor fuel economy.

The Merc opti is next best, but if you want Jap quality (may get some bites with that statement), then the Yammy 175 HPDI is next.

I don't want to drop to 150hp, and don't really need 200hp.

The lightest 4 st for 175hp and over is the Suzuki 200, but its almost 100kg heavier.

My boat is just over the 6m, but its about six years old, and doesn't have the extended transoms that some modern boats have to support the big 4 strokes.

I think I'm leaning towards the Yammy, but should I go for the 200 HPDI - its the same weight as the 175. The HPDIs have a reasonable cost advantage over the 4 strokes also. (about $18K for the 175 HPDI vs $23K for the Suzuki).

The problem is that it's a fair wack of money to spend either way, and I don't know how to get an on water comparison - comparisons of motors of this size are not common.

I'd be interested to know what you end up with

Whichway

[Kiktz]

Whichway,

Why I am telling my mate to go the 4 stroke!!!

We have a 200hp merc offshore on a Allison 195 Vision, If I head outside my usual spend on fuel is anywhere from $100 to $200. YEh the fours are more expensive to buy but If you use your boat on a regular basis, Surely the saving in fuel over time would save the the back pocket over time?

Thanks for the specs :D

[megafish71]

G'day Kiktz.
I currently run a 200hp 4banger yamy on a Yalta 615 Odessa and a guy I know has the same boat with a 175hp Optimax. We did a trip togeather a little while ago and to cut a long story short the opti used 40% more fuel for the same trip. I am so happy I went with the bigger 4 banger as I did consider the 175hp opti and the 150hp Yamy 4 banger. The honda 175hp was never a consideration as the price was almost the same and it weighs more than the 200hp Yamy.

Good luck
Ron

[Kerry]

So everybody appears fixed simply on economy. How about servicing costs and dare I say it re-build costs?

As for the economy v initial cost I suppose it all depends on ones own circumstances and usage. So going with Ron's 40% extra fuel and Whichways fuel burn $100 to $200. For the $100 case the saving is around $30, difference in initial cost #??? I dunno how does $4000 sound #???, which to make up the difference is around 130 trips, how many trips do most users do per year #??? How long do people keep outboards #???, I dunno #??? depends I suppose. How many times would one burn $200 in fuel #???, every trip ,every second trip, twice a year #???

Add servicing costs etc and the difference starts to narrow one would suspect. Really there has to be more reasoning in going 4S than simply fuel savings.

Cheers, Kerry.
#

[megafish71]

Kerry.
Its not only the ecconomy factor that swayed my decision, it was more about range, with only a capacity of 200ltrs under floor and the distance of some trips that we have and will continue to do sees us using up to 90% of the fuel on board. If I was running a 2 stroke I would have to carry more jerry cans of fuel on the deck, or look at putting in an extra fuel tank, which creates more weight in the boat and again effects fuel ecconomy. But you are correct about servicing costs, there is regular oil changes to be done, but all other maint and repairs eg: spark plugs, waterpumps etc, all cost the same reguardless of being 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Like all things to do with boats, there has to be a compromise somewhere.

Ron

[Kiktz]

Well I must say I for one I think the servicing and the cost of strongly depends on who you take it to. Where we were taking our boat to one place and every time it would cost around the $600 ++ mark took to another guy this time round and it cost us $400. The question in my head is the second mechanic doing all that needs to be done OR where we getting a lil ripped off by the first. And what is worse not getting all that needs to be done DONE? or the extra expence.
Not having the mechanical knowledge this really Sh*ts me.

Getting back to what my mates needs to consider.... ???
It is only through a site like this ( Bloody Great isn't it) That I can ask so many guys with out being fed a sales pitch and you guys actually use and have the expericence that I bet alot of sales guys dont.

Finga64,

I have only had a bit of a sticky beak at some of the honda range.
Smaller engines not too bad but the big engines are HUGE and heavy.
I think there is a hell of alot more better options out there.
So personally I would have to agree with megafish71.

Kerry pending, there have been times that trips that I would only use 1/3 of a tank I have used 80% due to the weather going to the dog house. As I have said in other posts I always carry spare fuel on board, Don't like that fact that I do. But I can not walk to the nearest servo if needed

[Fisher_Boats]

If it's any help to you Suzuki are releasing #150 and 175 hp 4 strokes this year. First one will be here in a couple months.
There's some info here http://www.hainessuzukimarine.com.au/news.asp


Cheers Col

[megafish71]

Have a look at this http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/board/YaBB.cgi?board=Boats;action=display;num=1088988533 ;start=

You will see that there is a big difference around in what dealers charge for servicing.

Ron

[whichway]

G'day Kiktz.
I currently run a 200hp 4banger yamy on a Yalta 615 Odessa and a guy I know has the same boat with a 175hp Optimax. We did a trip togeather a little while ago and to cut a long story short the opti used 40% more fuel for the same trip. I am so happy I went with the bigger 4 banger as I did consider the 175hp opti and the 150hp Yamy 4 banger. The honda 175hp was never a consideration as the price was almost the same and it weighs more than the 200hp Yamy.

Good luck
Ron


Megafish - fantastic feedback.

2 questions -

Do you think that the extra weight of the 200/4 is noticable compared to the 175 opti. Does it affect the trim or handling.

I'm not doubting what you're saying, but I know from others that the 175 HPDI should get about 1nm/litre in reasonable conditions. Can I ask what the 200/4 and the 175 opti got

Sorry, but the more I find out, the more I want to know

Regards

Whichway

[megafish71]

Whichway,
The weight difference between the 175hp HPDI and the 200 4 banger is 45kg and I don't think it makes that much difference to the trim of the boat. The trip I refered to in my earlier post had a return distance of 75 mile. The 200 4 banger used 62ltrs and the 175 opti used 95ltrs. The weather was pretty dam good and on the return leg I ran the 200 at almost full throtle to catch up with my mate that got underway about 20minutes earlier. Caught up with him about 15mile from home and throtled back to cruise along at about 4200rpm. As for the trim of the boat can I suggest that a quality set of trim tabs should be fitted to all boats 6mtr and larger. I will be fitting a set of bennet tabs as soon as I can afford them, might be a while though, about to start building a house, so extra coins might be a bit tite. Hope this info is of some help.

Cheers Ron

[Kerry]

Why does most think that a set of trim tabs will fix their problems, like if boats were designed properly in the first place trim tabs wouldn't exist, well for the reasons that many appear to require them for #???

Cheers, Kerry.

[whichway]

Ron / Megafish71

Thanks for the feedback. I'll remember it when I get my new motor.

Whichway

[yockman]

Totally agree with you megafish. Just being on a boat with a 4 stroke is so much nicer than one with an oiler.

Ok, so you've got X dollars in your boating budget. 4S will save you a heap in petrol. That means you can afford to use it more often or buy some other fishing gear or toys for your boat. If/when you decide to sell it, it's worth more than a comparable 2stroke.
4 stroke?? Way to go for me.
Cheers,
Yockman

[Kiktz]

A good set of trim tabe are invaluable, Our boats cruises along very well at 50km/per at 4200rpm with the correct ajustment of the engine trim and the use of the tabs

[megafish71]

Why does most think that a set of trim tabs will fix their problems, like if boats were designed properly in the first place trim tabs wouldn't exist, well for the reasons that many appear to require them for #???

Cheers, Kerry.

I don't have a problem Kerry, would like to be able to stop the list into the wind that is very common in all deep V hulls.

Ron

[Kiktz]

Hey Ron Should that be lift into the wind?

I know I usemine in every situation the stop the boat from banging in slightly choppyer weather and in good conditions I get her right up and out of the water so my fuel consumption is down.

I dont think they are a problem saver as much, just a good asset to have.

P.S

Do you guys think it is worth starting another topic
" Services Who and Why "

It may do alot of boaties some good, As mentioned here I think it is hard to find a good mechanic that does a good job at a reasonable rate.

[Kerry]

Balance is one (as in listing) but lift isn't what tabs are meant to be doing.

Cheers, Kerry.

[billfisher]

I think the fuel savings and investment value of 4 strokes are a bit of an illusion, especially in the smaller sized motors from 115 hp down. What most people arent factoring in is that most outside fishermen share the fuel cost with the crew. Also the main thing is the purchase price being several thousand more. If you put this money into paying off your mortage or into the stock market the returns would pay for the extra fuel used.

[Sportfish_5]

If you are worried about spending a couple of extra grand then don't even own a boat and put the lot into the mortgage or stock market ;)

One of the most important benefits is the extra range given by the four strokes/Hi tech 2 stk fuel economy compared to the old 2 stk carbie jobs. This benefit is also related to the amount you use the boat, the size of your rig and for what purpose you usually use it for - trolling for beakies and razor gang especially.

Winter fishing is always cheaper for me#;D ;D ;D

A bit of an illusion ? - Youre are most definitley correct in some circumstances but you also cannot deny that there are real savings there if you use you're boat a lot over long distances combined with lots of trolling #;D
Dont see too many pro boats running two strokes around these days #;)

Cheers

Greg

[billfisher]

Sportfish 5,
Well, they are a fair bit more than a couple of grand dearer. I was just questioning the economic argument of going for 4 strokes. As you pointed out there are fishability issues such as range to be considered.
Also in my area I haven't seen any pros using four strokes. They virtually all use CV Yammaha 2 strokes, which are a low tech, first generation 2 stroke. They sell them after a couple of years and claim the depreciation.