2 stroke outboards

[troy]

are 2 stroke outboards still a viable option .
no one seems to be able to agree on this.
[eg. if i was to place a 175 2 stroke on a 625 boat would it be the right decision.
cheers
troy

[Outsider]

Depends on what's important to you.

Heaps of grunt, , cheaper to buy, oil bills, lower service costs, higher fuel bills, louder, oil smell, smoke, poorer resale - all staples of the carb 2 stroke. Injected 2 strokes are better for fuel, oil, smoke and smell and noise and resale - But cost to buy goes up. 4 strokes are a step up again except for service costs.

You've gotta ask yourself - do I buy the biggest boat I can afford and put a carby 2 stroke on it and live with the "quirks" this entails, or do you downsize the hull a bit and get a EFI 2 stroke or 4 stroke? I don't think there is such a thing as a "viable" outboard - they're all just different - and cost different $$$ accordingly. Get out and try as many as you can of each type and when you narrow it to a few specific models ask owners on here to comment.

Just don't mention the 2 ft chop :-X ;D

[troy]

outsider
how do 4 strokes go in a 2 foot chop.
no seriously mate i will take your advise on board.
just did not realise how expensive it costs to set up a new boat.
cheers troy

[Kerry]

2 strokes #??? funny thing someone (who should know) mentioned the other day was the Gov boats are going back to 2 strokes as replacements are becoming due #???

Might have to take more specific notice of Gov boats from now on to see which way they are actually going. From the sounds of it all to do with costs (as gov generally is) ????

As for 175's (especially 2S's), well they have generally been been between this one and that one, a detuned 200 or an over stressed 150 but then some 200's are also over stressed 150's

Cheers, Kerry.

[James_V17L]

The burden of choice...aarr..
Why not go with the "Outboard of the Year"

[SeaSaw]

having a 4 stroke is like having air conditioning in a car .... You don't realise you need it until you finally have it .... but once you do you would never go back ;D

Mark

p.s now sits back and waits for kerry to point out that this statement is load of emotive rubbish, with no useful factual information ;) ;D ;D ... but it is still true ;D

[mako_5.2]

Can definately see the advantages after having bought a 2stroke. 120l of fuel does not last long pushing a 115 2 stroke hard, and you notice how quiet it is 5minutes after you shut it off and the ringing in your ears stops. Still it all comes down to budget. #Was about 3 grand difference to 4s when I bought mine. The cost of fuel did not concern me at the time but the lack of range on a 120l tank caught me by surprise.

[Kerry]

....p.s now sits back and waits for kerry to point out that this statement is load of emotive rubbish, with no useful factual information #;) ;D ;D #... but it is still true #;D

... well now wouldn't like to disappoint you hey [smiley=2thumbsup.gif], gee some of you lot appear to be really stuck in this pathetic sniping rut

Cheers, Kerry.

[cooky]

i don't seem to have an issue with smoke or smell with my merc 115 2 stroke - maybe I'm lucky. The cost of fuel doesn't worry me, but I would love more range.

I haven't been on a boat with 4S, but friends have and they say brilliant that you can still talk while travelling (quiet). I like to talk, so noise combined with range I would most likely look at a 4S next time.

Although I do like the sound of a 2 stroke - just on longer trips not saying anything to passengers is something I haven't figured out whether is good or bad.

[stunnedmullet]

I wonder what they would say if you could hear them cooky? Perhaps you should stick to a 2 stroke in that case.

On a serious topic, I am also in a dilemma as what I should match to a 420 quintrex explorer. Looked at Yamaha, Suzuki and honda. Like the idea of a 4 stroke however the price is appreciably more than the Yamaha 2 stroke. Anyone have any thoughts on the Yamaha 2 stroke 2 cylinder single carb model. First thoughts are that the 3 cylinder3 carb maybe a better option fuel and reliability. Thoughts ??? ???

[basserman]

i still like the 2strokes on the smaller tinnys (up to about 40hp) and mullet i would definty say the tripple carbs is a much better and smother donk than the cv range
however even thought i don't have one yet i would say the 4 bangers are truly the best in the larger sizes and i can't wait till i either repower mine or buy another boat either way a 4 banger will be driveing me ;D

[cooky]

I wonder what they would say if you could hear them cooky? Perhaps you should stick to a 2 stroke in that case.

thanks "ya monkey"

from the little I know the 3 cylinder yammies always get a good wrap and for that reason they seem to have better resale. *

*i would like to re-iterate that I know nothing, so I will not be held responsible for any advice given, the above is only my personal opinion only. :D

[reScuE_RanGEr]

Kerry,

In reference to your comment re government vessels going back to 2 strokes, I can definitely confirm that one government agency on the Gold Coast is very unhappy with their change to 4 bangers and are seriously looking at going back to 2 strokes. Major gripes seem to be with the high cost of servicing, the lack of power down low and the added weight. Resale has not been what they were expecting either.

So I guess their opinion comes from the fact that they can't justify the extra $20000 outlay because they dont save that over the 2yr life of the engine in fuel.

Its an interesting debate though.

Steve

[Kerry]

Steve,

Yes as usual the 2S v 4S "discussion" is always interesting to say the least, and really any issues (of any kind) with 4S's (outboards), well they really haven't been around long enough yet and there is this prediction that as 4S's get on in life then one might see what the real service issues/costs are. The prediction is not good from those that know anything about them as right now there are very few issues but as with all things generally being new etc but down the track, well ???

Yes it would appear there will be a few more ex Gov 4S's and really this is not a good sign for the 4S brigade, regardless of the reasons as this tends to reflect the initial knee jerk reaction to 4S's followed by reality but of course depends largely on the application.

But if the Gov can't keep the costs in the black then there's absolutely no way the average boatie can based on average type use, so that sort of shoots the economy/cost/justification thing in the foot.

Actually shoots a lot of things in the foot.

Cheers, Kerry.

[basserman]

i guess it also depends on the useage too doesn't it like there is bugger all diffrence when either is WOT but then again when trolling or idleing around i dout anyone could honestly say that the four strokes chew as much as their two stroke counterparts
but yeh a guess two years would be hard to see any saveing it is only really after some years that the true saveing will be made also depends on the service costs too after all many motor mechenics out there once they hear the word goverment fleet they automaticly put their prices up more than normal
all the comrcail fleet down here (bloody huge that it is ::)) have gone to the four bangers and still have them and the other have deisel sterndrives and many of them are now looking at the volvo 4 stroke sterndrives

i know in my case owning a 2stroke and haveing mates with bigger 4 strokes i know i will save plenty of $$$ just in the trolling
at the moment i use rougly about $160 in fule for a full days troll (4:30-5:00am till about 4pm) while my mates with yamaha 150's do a full day for about $60 now saveing only say $100 for say five trips thats $500 alone now i only need to worrie about fule as my serviceing is done free (thanks Hollis marine shop 9 Port Maquaire maina 02 6583 3349) ;D

[cooky]

that's a long time trolling
troll (4:30-5:00am till about 4pm)

I really don't think cost should be considered - it really isn't going to work out much different. 2 strokes may work out cheaper - simple motors at the end of the day. Fuel is very hard to catch up - even at $100 per trip difference. The reasons have to be preference related - range, noise, smoke, weight, maintenance, looks, etc.

I am happy with 2S, but maybe I'd look 4S next time (noise, range).

Most people don't think about cost of boat as much as fuel, because most get a loan and treat the payment of that loan as a fixed / known cost - the fuel is variable and therefore is more obvious to the wallet. Pull up beside your mate at the fuel browser - he spends $50, you spend $200 and you feel ripped off, but he might have spent $20,000 extra on a boat that does the same thing as yours. Who knows...

[Kerry]

Many moons ago, like around the birth of the 4S outboard "revolution" there was a comment made by the powers in outboard circles, that 4S outboards were really only an interim solution (to some highly flung EPA requirements) until 2S technology was further advanced.

Right now one could really convince oneself there's some signs showing that this might not have been as outrageous as it sounded at the time.

Similar with this apparent move to go back to 2S as one would have thought that if anybody was going to make use of 4S's it would have been high use, high HP operators.

Cheers, Kerry.

[tonyp]

I have a 2-stroke 75 E-tec.
Quite,
Uses Bugger all Fuel,
Does not smoke,
Trollls all day,
Weight is good. And can not pick a fault with them. #;D

There is a 115, 150, and a 175 Hp on the way towards the end of year.

[Big_Kev]

I have a 2-stroke 75 E-tec.
Quite,
Uses Bugger all Fuel,
Does not smoke,
Trollls all day,
Weight is good. And can not pick a fault with them. #;D

There is a 115, 150, and a 175 Hp on the way towards the end of year.

So the argument that four strokes "cost so much more" has just been killed off by the so called latest tech, hi tech, excessively engineered, overpriced #2 stroke.

[Kerry]

So the argument that four strokes "cost so much more" has just been killed off by the so called latest tech, hi tech, excessively engineered, overpriced #2 stroke.


Now shouldn't that read ...."so called second generation, hi tech, excessively engineered, renamed Ficht".... overpriced 2 stroke #;D

[whichway]

:(
I don't know wat to buy either. Surely anything fuel injected (2 or 4 stroke) is less reliable than a 2st carby motor. Read the specs on the latest Suzi 4 st - More bells and whistles than a Ferrari, if it stops on the water don't even both taking the cowl off.

Whichway

[Big_Kev]

For me it all boils down to the budget/bottom line.
If the savings can be made with one's particular application and the boat you want fits the budget then thats what a smart person will do.
Four stroke motors are much better on fuel(cost-range), quieter, and idle along much smoother then 2 strokes.Cost more and weight can be a problem.
Two strokes are cheaper, lighter and produce fast KW that is usually misrepresented as "grunt"? But cost more in fuel and are cheaper when a major service is due.
The new E/tech's are good but I think they are overpriced.

[Big_Kev]

Getting close Kerry, I think it crosses a few more feilds then that.
I just don't want to say those sort of things here.

[basserman]

kev i agree with ya as this is the resone i'm now going 4stroke
that save of $100 a trip times atleast 5 is $500 a year and when the 4stroke are only about $4000 extra thats then a saveing after only 8 yearsnow thats only counting the full days trolling not all the half day one i do each year cahseing billys in summer and fins in winter ;)
but it does always come down to personal choose like car some are holden men some are ford and the smart ones are toyota men :P

[Spaniard_King]

Has or does anyone know of someone who has gone to a 4 Stroke then actually gone back to 2 strokes. It would be interesting to hear there reasons for the change back to 2 strokes.

certainly 2 strokes have there uses but for other than the $$$ why would anyone go back ???

Garry

[mackmauler]

The 4 strokes win hands down for me, in fact plenty of the trips ive made would not have been possible without a 4 stroke, not with my size boat anyhow.

Fuel use gets a lot more important when you cant get a supply. how important that is is an individual thing, how much fuel can one fit in a boat for long range trips of a week or more remembering there has to be room for the crew and gear..

next thing is vibration through the tiller, might be something some lasses get off on but its a pain in the arse, there is no way I can hang onto a 2 stroke standard 40 for 2 hrs without a numb arm but its a dream with a 4 stroke.

[reScuE_RanGEr]

Gary, to answer your question re going back I guess the closest I have heard of is with one of the gov fleets on the coast here. They changed one vessel to 4 bangers and 12 months after when a second vessel was due for the 4 banger conversion they elected to stay with 2's due to the reasons I explained in an earlier post.

As far as VMR goes, almost 12 months ago we almost changed back. Came down to a vote or two i think.

Whichway I hope you are right in comparing the Suzi's to a Ferrari ;D I am very shortly gonna be responsible for 3 of them!! *crosses fingers and toes*

Steve

[tonyp]

I will not get into the bashing side some of you have been doing. I am just saying i have one and love it.

And there fuel consumption is very good on par with some 4 strokes.
Below i s what i found on there site today after reading stuff people are saying about Old 2 Stroke Techo !
------------------------------------------------------
Evinrude E-TEC receives U.S. EPA Clean Air Excellence Award


First marine manufacturer to receive this recognition for an outboard engine

(Washington D.C., April 7, 2005) - Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. (BRP) will be presented the Clean Air Excellence Award from Stephen L. Johnson, the Acting Administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for its Evinrude® E-TECTM outboard engine, at a ceremony held later today in Washington.

According to the EPA, BRP was selected by the jury because its Evinrude E-TEC technology has redesigned engine technology for boating. "The EPA jury originally thought they would have to go to a four-stroke engine to achieve such important air quality benefits. We've demonstrated that our E-TEC two-stroke outboard engine carbon monoxide emissions are typically 30 to 50 percent lower than a similar four-stroke engine and, at idle, are lower by a factor of 50 to 100 times", said José Boisjoli, President and Chief Executive Officer, BRP.

This is the first time ever that a marine engine manufacturer receives a Clean Air Excellence Award by the EPA. Evinrude E-TEC is an advanced two-stroke direct injection outboard engine that produces lower exhaust emissions including lower carbon monoxide emissions than four-stroke engines, providing a cleaner, quieter and safer boating environment. E-TEC technology meets stringent 2006 EPA, European Union (EU), and 2008 California Air Resources Board (CARB) 3-Star ultra-low emissions standards.

"Today is a great day for BRP! E-TEC's environmental attributes are being recognized by EPA and, for BRP, this is a great achievement because it testifies to our capacity to marry high performance two-stroke technology and environmental protection benefits," said José Boisjoli. "I'm honored to receive the U.S. EPA Clear Air Excellence Award on behalf of our employees who have once again demonstrated BRP's leadership in the motorized recreational vehicles industry."

As a manufacturer of recreational products, BRP is focused on designing environmentally-responsible and industry-leading technologies that have the potential to be used outside the marine industry.

The EPA Clean Air Excellence Award recognizes and honors individuals and organizations that have taken the risks of innovation, served as pioneers in their fields, and have helped to improve air quality. "The EPA award will sit well with the other distinctions BRP has received since the launch of the Evinrude E-TEC technology in 2003," concluded Boisjoli.

BRP is a world leader in design, development, manufacturing, distribution and marketing of Ski Doo® and LynxTM snowmobiles, Sea Doo® watercraft and sport boats, Johnson® and Evinrude® outboard engines, direct injection technologies such as Evinrude E TECT, Bombardier* all-terrain vehicles (ATV), Rotax® engines and karts. www.brp.com
®, TM Trademark of Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. or its subsidiaries.
* Trademark of Bombardier Inc. used under license.


http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Media.Center/Press.Releases/1/07.04.2005.htm

[boatboy50]

Guys,

In fairness to the 4 Banger brigade, the Gov. Dept on the coast changing doesnt actually do all that many hours. Below 500 a year i believe.

An interesting fact is the resale of 4 strokes. When they first come out a big sail point was the resale.
During a recent meeting with a large 4 stroke manufacturer representative, in a quote package, they estimated the resale buyback as 30% of original cost after only 2 years, estimating to have around 2000 hours on them. Based on a 25k purchase price, that puts the engines value at only around 7500 dollars. Now in my mind thats insane and one of the main reasons i voted against them. Hence at the end of the day we didnt purchase those engines, but hopefully the other brand we chose will hold resale better than that.

Regards
Darren

[Mad_Barry]

I'm selling a late model 60 4 stroke now, and this waffle about better Re sale value for 4stroke is a complete phurphy.

Cars, Bikes, Boats etc, you take a bath, 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Don't forget, in years down the track if/when a full rebuild is on the cards (for who ever the owner at the time is), I'd bet they'd much rather be coughing up for pistons, rings, & bearings etc for a 2s than all that plus valves, head work etc on a 4s. This will also play a major part in resale values vs remaining service life of 2s vs 4s.

Has anyone done a full rebuild on a 4s yet ? would love to see the invoice at the end of the job to see what the facts are. I'd be guessing it a good couple of grand dearer than a 2s in the 60 to 90 hp range.

As for anyone ever going from 4stroke, to 2 stroke #:o. god forbid it has been done before and I may well be another soon #:)

I'm in the market for a 90hp at them moment. 4s are about 14 odd grand. 2 strokes 9ish to 10ish. Weight is another issue, 90 is the top end range for my boat, 90 4s are 170 to 190 odd kg. 2 s are 120 to 140 odd kg. (i.e. 50 odd kg heavier for 4s). #


Most of my trips are either short runs up a river then electric powered lure fishing, or in good weather I can rack up a 40 to 50 mile day off shore island hopping, mackeral trolling etc. Trips up the hinchinbrook every mth or two may see a 40 to 50 mile per day as well. Probably do 150/180 engine hrs per yr.



Now if I use an extra 10 or 20 bucks in fuel on my bigger days every mth or 2 and only a couple of dollars on weekly short river runs, it takes a friggin long time to recover $4000.00. (shit, that's a colour sounder, colour plotter & a couple of shiny new rods & reels #;D) Servicing costs are a bucketload cheaper on 2s as well. (I've had both & would say about half the cost for a 2s would be a good estimate).

Don't get me wrong, four strokes are good, smooth, quiet etc and have their market but friggin hell, the 2s are far from dead and if you do the sums, actually make more sense in a lot of circumstances. #:)

But the best thing, is us as consumers have a friggin lot of choices out there at the moment #;D

[stunnedmullet]

From somone who has just spent a number of weeks researching a boat/motor rig suitable for my requirements, my decision on which motor to purchase was based upon
* Reliability
* Simplicity
* Budget
* Match to boat(420 quintrex explorer)
* Honest evaluation of what I will need the motor to do.
Taking all this into account, I have chosen a Yamaha 30hp 2cylinder single carb model after looking at Suzuki, Tohastu, Johnson, and a range of second hand motors. Yes I know that a triple cylinder, triple carb will probably run better, yes I know a 4 stroke has a number of advantages(particularly running for long periods at low speed), but when it comes down to it I am(unfortuantely) only a once a month recreational fisher with a limited budget who has to stick to what I could say was honestly needed on my future fishing adventures.
Needless to say, I cannot wait until I am sitting in it and spending time with family and friends....and hopefully fish.

The mullet

[knakers]

I'm with the 4st brigade. I'm not 2 sure when people talk of higher servicing cost!!
How hard is it 2 drain oil out of a sump spin of a oil filter spin on a new 1 and top up with fresh oil. This only needs to be done every 100 hrs or i think 6 mnths which every comes first. Same with the gearbox oil. We get 200 hrs out of spark plugs no problems which can easily be changed. This work does not void ur warranty.
Water pump impellor replaced after 500 hrs or 12 mnths.
The talk of better fuel efficientcy really comes down to how the engine is driven, Just like your old Kingswood or your new Commodore, you sink the boot into the new commodore she will still suck down the go go juice.
I personally rather the 4st for smoothness, quiteness and the ease of servicing.
[smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

[SeaSaw]

Always an interesting debate. Having gone from a carby model 2 stroke to a 4 stroke, I would never go back, as the 4 banger has opened up new opportunities for fishing that I just wouldn’t pursue with the 2 stroke.

I am talking about getting into serious trolling. With the old 2 stroke, it just cost too much, and the engine did not like it, [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] so I never did more than an hour of trolling and really wasn’t very serious about it. With the new 4 stroke, I can troll all day, and I am starting to enjoy a new style of fishing that just was not an option previously. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

To illustrate the point, this is the comparison between the two engines. These are real figures based on moderate sea conditions (both engines return better figures in perfect conditions).

The 2-Stroke returned about 0.7km per litre at cruising speeds and used between 30-35litre per hour at trolling speed. :o ??? Incredibly bad when it comes to trolling.

The 4-Stroke returns about 1.1km per litre at cruising speeds and uses between 8-12 litres per hour at trolling speeds. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

So it I want to go out 50km to the wide grounds, troll for 5 hours and come home, with the 2-stroke that would have cost me 143litres for the 100km return trip and 175litres for 5 hours trolling, totalling 318 litres for the day. Given I have a 350 litre tank, I also start to run into range problems, but on cost alone this just wasn’t an option for me. :'(

The same example with the 4-stroke costs 91litres for the 100km return trip and 60 litres for 5 hours trolling, totalling 151 litres for the day. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif] That’s the amount of fuel I used to use just get out and back to somewhere like the Barwon Banks to bottom bash with the old engine. ;D

The 4 stroke is allowing me to do things that just were not viable with a two stroke both in terms of range and cost, so for me there is no comparison. To me this is more about fitness for purpose than one technology being better than the other.

Cheers,

Mark

[Mad_Barry]

#To me this is more about fitness for purpose than one technology being better than the other. #




exactly. ;D

What size engine are you talking about in those comparisons ?

[cooky]

mark - that's a good little article. I can certainly see the value for you. particularly if taking the family. Most friends I know who go boating don't care about the fuel cost due to inviting other friends (pay for fuel between friends - doesn't work out to much each). If I was buying a boat your size I think I'd be looking at 4S for range / cost issues. YOu certainly have spent enough on a boat like yours to not want cash to keep exiting your wallet any faster.

[reScuE_RanGEr]

Knakers mate i have to disagree with you on the servicing. Coming from an organization that runs 5 large four bangers when we suggested to our dealer that we change our own oil etc like you mentioned we were told in no uncertain terms that warranty would be affected.

To get that simple service you mention done on a pair of V6's u are not gettin too much change out of $700.

Steve

[Black_Rat]

I have chosen a Yamaha 30hp 2cylinder single carb model
I owned a Yammie 30 CV for over two years and found it always to be reliable and a no fuss motor ;) can't go wrong there [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

[stunnedmullet]

Thanks for the feedback Black_Rat.
Horses for courses and a even though I think that ANY motor may well give you some grief at times the Yammy overall is a reliable and proven performer and as I am not into hours of trolling or running the motor daily for hours on end I am happy with my choice.
The mullet

[SeaSaw]

Dicko, The 2-stroke was a 200hp and the new 4-stroke is 225hp.

Mark

[Kerry]

"Fitness for purpose" is certainly a good bottom line as not everybody does the same thing but whatever it is they want to do then that will come at a cost, be it initial purchase cost or down stream maintenance cost or something ....

The word "service" is simply that but in due course when 4S's require pulling down for major works there will be absolutely no comparison to equiv 2S rebuilds, none what so ever, not even close.

For some of the bigger boats the higher end 4S's have a lot of logic when compared to the other options of either shafts or I/O. The amount of $$'s one guy here recently spent re-building just one of his diesels and legs would have brought 2 spanking new 4S's outboards and would have probably got a much better boat out of it all.

But the philosophy of selecting an outboard simply based on 4S or 2S simply doesn't hold water as 4S's might have some points but they don't have all the points, in many instances far from it.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Kerry]

"The EPA jury originally thought they would have to go to a four-stroke engine to achieve such important air quality benefits."

http://www.brp.com/en-CA/Media.Center/Press.Releases/2005/1/07.04.2005.htm

Maybe 4S's really were just a stop gap measure ??? maybe the original prediction was close to the mark ??? bit of a shocker really :o

Cheers, Kerry.

[Big_Kev]

"The EPA jury originally thought they would have to go to a four-stroke engine to achieve such important air quality benefits."

http://www.brp.com/en-CA/Media.Center/Press.Releases/2005/1/07.04.2005.htm

Maybe 4S's really were just a stop gap measure #??? maybe the original prediction was close to the mark #??? bit of a shocker really :o

Cheers, Kerry.


Good case of banging ones own drum I think.
What next evinrude invented the wheel.

[Kerry]

Good case of banging ones own drum I think. #
What next evinrude invented the wheel. #

The main stumbling with that one is those 3 miserable letters EPA have nothing to do with Evinrude but carry one hell of a PR marketing coup. Do you think any of the other manufacturers would have missed this opportunity if it had gone their way, but then it didn't, did it.

One must not loose sight of the "main" reason manufacturers went 4S when they did and that was to primarily meet some rather ridiculous pollution deadlines, sooner than latter.

Cheers, Kerry.
#

[Big_Kev]

Good case of banging ones own drum I think. #
What next evinrude invented the wheel. #

The main stumbling with that one is those 3 miserable letters EPA have nothing to do with Evinrude but carry one hell of a PR marketing coup. Do you think any of the other manufacturers would have missed this opportunity if it had gone their way, but then it didn't, did it.

One must not loose sight of the "main" reason manufacturers went 4S when they did and that was to primarily meet some rather ridiculous pollution deadlines, sooner than latter.

Cheers, Kerry.
#

Any and all manufacturers plaster awards in the face of the consumer to tell them how great they are.
I note this has been pulled from the bombadier web site?
Its called marketing. (sales people are very good at it)
I prefer to make my decisions based on fact not hype as you have always stated as well Kerry.

[Kerry]

Suppose could always pull it off the EPA ;D

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/b1ab9f485b098972852562e7004dc686/a3b630180665763d85256fdc006f4a6f!OpenDocument

Which ever way one looks at it, it doesn't change the fact that this doesn't sit well with opinions.

Cheers, Kerry.

[tonyp]

Why dont we make it easier and just come out and say you dont like BRP and be done with,,,,,Does not what facts we or anyone will bring its that simple.

I like my E-tec and did go from a Yammy 4 stroke to a 75 @ stroke. ;D

[Kerry]

Now lets not get confused here, the manufacturers who ever they might be or specific models etc are irrelevent, nothing to do with BRP or any other make as the focus should be on the 2S v 4S futures, the make is really irrelevant.

Cheers, Kerry.

[knakers]

Steve, Check up on your maintenance book. mine clearly says that the owner can do this basic stuff!! If I was a dealer i would say the same, when you have twins ,say 225's it is a cool $1300-$1400 for about 2hrs work and of the top of my head about $300 worth of materials, oil/filters/plugs and a bit of grease. I did get sucked in but no more
Cheers Knakers

[tonyp]

Now lets not get confused here, the manufacturers who ever they might be or specific models etc are irrelevent, nothing to do with BRP or any other make as the focus should be on the 2S v 4S futures, the make is really irrelevant.

Cheers, Kerry.


Dont get confused then,but dont put E-tec 2 stroke in the same sentence of the oily smelly, rough 2 stroke bracket. There is a big difference.
anyway whoever company can produce figures like some 2 strokes must be heading in the right direction. Or at least seen to be trying.

On my new boat i had a choice of all motors and picked the one for me and dont regret it.
All new technoligy outboards this day and age should be very good. Some are just a nose in front. Maybe ;)

[Kerry]

And don't worry Tony you have a fairly long history as far as some "technologies" are concerned as well ;).

I believe the statement that 4S's wappeared to be a stop gap measures until 2S technology was further advanced to meet environmental requirements has no relevance to comments about smelly oily anythings it's a 2S v 4S issue.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Spaniard_King]

Steve, Check up on your maintenance book. mine clearly says that the owner can do this basic stuff!! If I was a dealer i would say the same, when you have twins ,say 225's it is a cool $1300-$1400 for about 2hrs work and of the top of my head about $300 worth of materials, oil/filters/plugs and a bit of grease. I did get sucked in but no more
Cheers Knakers

Hey Knakers, what do you concider to be above the basic stuff ?

Cheers

Garry

[Mad_Barry]

interesting the e tech cops a bashing. If I choose to spend extra above a regular 2s in pursuit of better fuel economy & quietness, It's the top of my short list, above the 4 strokes. (Weight is an issue for me, 140 odd for etech & 180 odd for 4s).

They've been out now near on a couple of yrs, enough for any major design faults to show up.

Besides talking to several owners here locally, including a guide with 2 of em, I've googled my head off for several weeks looking for e tech problems here & the US. I found a few, but certainly no more than any other brand.

What I did find was bucket loads of armchair engineers having emotional outbursts, under the guise of expounding all sorts of 'theories'. Also some were suffering hang overs from the pre bombadier ficht days. What I didn't find was clear logical reasoning to stay away from them.

Anyone care to enlighten me to any cold hard facts of a negative nature before I make a decision ? #

[Big_Kev]

Good case of banging ones own drum I think. #
What next evinrude invented the wheel. #

Do you think any of the other manufacturers would have missed this opportunity if it had gone their way,

One must not loose sight of the "main" reason manufacturers went 4S when they did and that was to primarily meet some rather ridiculous pollution deadlines, sooner than latter.

Cheers, Kerry.
#

In answer to your Q Kerry I believe that is the exact point that I made. When i said "all manufacturers will plaster there awards in the face of the consumer." (marketing)
You should read what is written.

As for saying 4's are just a "stop gap measure" I think you are not correct.
I would like to know where t is you got this gem or is it just hear say? Or purhaps it's a sales pitch from Evinrude)(Marketing)

Cheers Kev.

[Stevo25]

Totally agree that both 2s and 4s have their applications, i personally am a 2s owner and always have been.

Alot of what i am reading is, Most 4s owners are comparing their new motors to their old 15year old 2 strokes, guys they have come a long long way since then.

My first was a 1976ish model Johnston 2 stroke, super reliable but noisey.

After selling that boat i went to a small tinny, with 2002 Yammy 2 stroke 20hp,,, very smooth and suprisingly quiet.

Sold that boat and now have a 2004 40HP yammy 2s 3cyl triple carbs, again very smooth and even at WOT can talke to the bloke next to me if i raise my voice but not shout either.

My decision on 2stoke was cost saving, and mostly reliability and simplicity, and i have never regretted my decision, sure they are smokey when you kick her over and shes cold but once warm, i can never visibly see smoke.

My mate had a 2003 4s 30hp honda, and after 1 ride with my new 2s was converted, a 4S running at WOT or close to it is not ALL that much quiete than a new 2s stroke doing the same. His honda just didnt have the same grunt/torque and thats what sold him, he was willing to have a motor that is abit more noisier save him $$$ and get more punch.

If i was going to buy a motor to troll hours on end, or do long distances offshore it would probably be a 4s, but the aux would be a 2s ;D

Steve :)

[Kerry]

Kev, This "stop gap" measure as you call it was being touted back in the mid 90's but then there wasn't too much to make a judgement on it one way or another. The thought (and it was being talked about in some wide ranging circles) peaked at a time when OMC (Evinrude doesn't actually exist anymore apart from a legacy name brandname either) didn't even exist basically as a result of prematurely pushing untried, unproven technology (apart from some bad management issues) into the market to counter the environmental conditions being inflicted at the time. So no it wasn't an Evinrude (Ex OMC) PR department, OMC didn't exist and hasn't existed since and don't quote me but .... but for some reason Mercury is a name that keeps poping up ???? That was quite some time ago but it's been something that has stuck with me as it probably had a rather interesting ring about it, as even back then one with an independent view would see both sides of such a thought. # #

4 Strokes were/are an easy fix towards meeting environmental requirements, a more expensive fix, a more complicated fix, a quicker fix, an immediate fix #but never the less a fix and at that time, that was about all that mattered.

In hindsight and seeing what is occuring today it's not all that difficult to put some of the pieces together as it's not all that dumb as it might have sounded way back then.

Cheers, Kerry.

[kapper76]

hey,
not trying to step on anyones toes with the E-tec issue but i was considering one over the new verados. but got told by the dealer that one of the 250hp he sold had to have the plugs replaced after only 150hours (so much for 300hrs dealer free servicing) also that evinrude was going to pull the sale of the larger E-tecs till they got an overheating problem in the gearbox sorted.

[troy]

dicko i am like you i cannot make my mind up either.
what is the price difference between the e tecs and the regular 2 strokes.
i have not purchased a new outboard for 7 years and i am not up with all this new tecknology.
i was at my local doctors yesterday and he was going on about the new 2 strokes compared with the old ones .
could not quite get what he was meaning as in his next sentence he told me he had just ordered a honda 4 stroke.
troy

[dfox]

Its interesting reading everyone's views on this subject!

I tend to believe that the 4s is the future in outboards, currently price and wieght seem to be the limiting factor in there dominance.This subject could be argued about for hours and each to his own, but it looks like the yanks are moving more towards the 4s with the release of some more mercury supercharged 4s in a 135,150 and 175.
Interesting to see how a 135 verado 4 stroke compares to a 135 optimax!
...foxy

[Big_Kev]

Kev, This "stop gap" measure as you call it was being touted back in the mid 90's but then there wasn't too much to make a judgement on it one way or another. The thought (and it was being talked about in some wide ranging circles) peaked at a time when OMC (Evinrude doesn't actually exist anymore apart from a legacy name brandname either) didn't even exist basically as a result of prematurely pushing untried, unproven technology (apart from some bad management issues) into the market to counter the environmental conditions being inflicted at the time. So no it wasn't an Evinrude (Ex OMC) PR department, OMC didn't exist and hasn't existed since and don't quote me but .... but for some reason Mercury is a name that keeps poping up ???? That was quite some time ago but it's been something that has stuck with me as it probably had a rather interesting ring about it, as even back then one with an independent view would see both sides of such a thought. # #

4 Strokes were/are an easy fix towards meeting environmental requirements, a more expensive fix, a more complicated fix, a quicker fix, an immediate fix #but never the less a fix and at that time, that was about all that mattered.

In hindsight and seeing what is occuring today it's not all that difficult to put some of the pieces together as it's not all that dumb as it might have sounded way back then.

Cheers, Kerry.


Kerry the mid 90's was a long time ago and I am thinking that anyone still saying that "4's are just a stop gap and will be outted once the 2 stroke tech catches up", have no interests invested in four strokes.

For sure in the mid 90's some desperation measures were put into play to meet the tiered emission standards, with engines being converted from all walks to satisfy the need and it worked.

Until that time anyone to suggest seriously fuel economy and emission controls on an outboard would have just about been laughed out of town.

Its funny how far things have come since the big push and this is evident with all engines.

But obviously from what is written here from a broad spectrum of consumers shows there is a strong market for 4 stroke outboards.
No manufacturer wanting to sell their product will turn there back on an opportunity like this.

It cannot be denied that many manufacturers are still pouring in the money to further develop the 4's. So it will be interesting to see how they will be a few years from now. I am sure that many of the negative issues of low down performance and weight will be answered with more development.
One can only hope that the price will come down as well but i am not holding my breath for that.

Cheersa Kev.

[tonyp]

hey,
#not trying to step on anyones toes with the E-tec issue but i was considering one over the new verados. but got told by the dealer that one of the 250hp he sold had to have the plugs replaced after only 150hours (so much for 300hrs dealer free servicing) also that evinrude was going to pull the sale of the larger E-tecs till they got an overheating problem in the gearbox sorted.

Kapper,

I asked a friend in the states about the Big E-tecs and what they thought, I think they had the big donks before us and we had the small ones launched in Australia due to the climate here coming into summer and it was there winter or something like that. Oh they aint holding back on them,infact people are screaming for them he says. :)

Below is a cut and paste of soemthing he saved and is trying to find the link to verify it for anyone who wants to look.

Fuel usage was interesting also.

---------------------------
Hey Tony,


Here is part of a post of a charter captain in Florida who has used both FICHTS and now a 250 E-TEC. If I can find it, he also talks about a 300 hr. service that was just plugs and a check out.

--------------------------

I've been running a 2005 model 250 ETEC since late October. It pushes a 87 Mako 254 center console. Prop is a OMC 15x17 SSTII
My experience so far...

Avg Fuel burn: about 10-15 % better than the 2004 Evinrude DI250 it replaced. At cruise (4400 rpms or so), I'm doing around 11 gph and making 24 knots. This will vary a bit depending on load, sea conditions, trim, etc. My fuel flow meter is not calibrated perfectly yet either so this number is a little off but not by much. On total fuel burn at the end of a trip, the FF meter errs high so I expect that FF at cruise errs to the high side as well. At idle, it burns 1/3 gallon per hour. Yes. that's one gallon every 3 hours. On an average trip out of Canaveral, I'll log 50-60NM in a 9 hour day. This involves about an hour run out at cruise, 5-6 hours of idling around, another 1/2 hour or so at cruise to move to different spots and finally an hour run in at cruise. During the early part of January when the weather was really nice, I can tell you that I ran 4 full day trips and 2 half day trips on a total of 144 gallons of fuel and a little less than a gallon and a half of oil.
As I fine tune my fuel management system and put a little more time on her, I'll be sure to update my numbers.

Avg Oil consumption: Just plain nutz. I haven't figured it exactly yet but I do know I'm getting in excess of 100:1. I'm burning the XD-100 synthetic oil.

As far as emissions are concerned, the ETEC beats any other offering out there (both 2 strokes and 4 strokes). As one poster above so clearly illustrated, there is a lot of ignorance on this one. The data supports it quite conclusively though. I've heard the comment more than once that there is no way a two stroke that burns oil in the fuel can have lower emissions than a 4 stroke that burns no oil. Very simple logic at play in those types of comments. The reality is that the ETEC pollutes less because it is very efficient at consuming the oil at the point of ignition. i.e. there is no oil left to "escape". And its no secret that 4 strokes do actually consume oil as well. One issue I've heard of is oil leaking past rings when certain 4 strokes are left tilted for a while. When they're first started, all of that oil gets blown right out into the environment. I think its fair to say that ALL engines consume oil to some degree. The ETEC has proven that it does it in a much cleaner fashion as well.

As far as noise is concerned, the ETEC is incredibly quiet. At idle, it is much noticeably quieter than other 2 strokes. It probably isn't quite as quiet as 4 strokes at idle but it is very close. I've had many, many people ask me how I like my 4 stroke as I'm backing her into my slip. They've all been stunned to learn its actually a 2 stroker.

At cruise, it is noticeably quieter than other 2 strokes and probably equal to or better than most 4 strokes. Don't have data to support this, just my gut feeling. I've been on boats with Yam 4 strokes as well as Honda 4 strokes. Don't have experience with any others.

[Kerry]

....Its funny how far things have come since the big push and this is evident with all engines....

Kev, In this 2S v 4S outboard issue the humble 4S hasn't been re-invented but for sure the implementation of 4S's to meet the interim environmental requirements have certainly pushed the 2S design, I doubt there's been much advancement under the cowl of a 4S outboard, it's still a 4S, same principle, just about same everything.

BUt if a motor can be made simple, light, fuel efficient, environmental, cost effective, service effective, noise effective and all those other things then that motor technology will make the grade

Honestly "if" all requirements are meet why would anybody want the extra complications and associated negatives just because it's a 4S.

One would imagine all manufacturers are pouring heaps of $$'s into both technologies but at the end of the day an engine that can be produced to meet all the requirements at the best cost will have the market.

And in all respect it would appear that 2S design is certainly moving at a far greater and better pace than 4S design, which basically hasn't changed.


....I am sure that many of the negative issues of low down performance and weight will be answered with more development.... :D Well that development is currently being answered from the 2S camps, which is effectively making it more difficult for for current 4S technology to match as 4S's not only now have to match it but go one better..


Cheers, Kerry.

[whichway]

evinrude was going to pull the sale of the larger E-tecs till they got an overheating problem in the gearbox sorted.

I'm not doubting your information, but I thought Evinrude have been making 225hp gearboxes since the about mid 70's. Why would they just start to have problems now. Whatever changes are made to the top end of the motor surely shouldn't affect the gearbox! :-/ !

What next - maybe the propellors will start to fall off ;D

If it ain't broke (eg gearbox), don't fix it.

Whichway

[Big_Kev]

.

[Big_Kev]

Kerry nor has the 2's been reinvented.
The main advances in both the 2's and 4's are in the fuel delivery method, with #electronic fuel injection now standard requirement, due to its ability to infinitely and accurately control fuel delivery. #

BUt if a motor can be made simple, light, fuel efficient, environmental, cost effective, service effective, noise effective and all those other things then that motor technology will make the grade

Totaly agree.

Honestly "if" all requirements are meet why would anybody want the extra complications and associated negatives just because it's a 4S. #

I think that with the new 2's they have become extra complicated as well and will also have the added negatives.

One would imagine all manufacturers are pouring heaps of $$'s into both technologies but at the end of the day an engine that can be produced to meet all the requirements at the best cost will have the market.

Totaly agree.

And in all respect it would appear that 2S design is certainly moving at a far greater and better pace than 4S design, which basically hasn't changed.

Thats because it had to to make the grade.

#:D Well that development is currently being answered from the 2S camps, which is effectively making it more difficult for for current 4S technology to match as 4S's not only now have to match it but go one better.. # #


Thats one of my main points, #"that 4's still have plenty of room to be developed" # and are realy only juniors on the scene when compared to the time that 2's have been here.

I wonder wheather we may some day see a hybrid? May God save us from those arguments.
Cheers Kev. #:) #

[Big_Kev]

Sorry about all the bold but I am just learning how to master that.

[Spaniard_King]

Whichway,

OMC/BRP what ever you want to call em havent made a good V6 g/box ever.

I would suggest they have made changes to there box to try and fix one of several problems and have come up with an over heating problem, nuthin unusual really ::)

cheers

Garry

[Kerry]

....Sorry about all the bold but I am just learning how to master that....

Just remember the / (forward slash) closes whatever you start with

Text in here etc

But back to the engines 2S's are still not as complicated as 4S's and really the initial cost is probably only minimal when compared to the ongoing "running" costs.


....Thats because it had to to make the grade....

Now that 2 strokes have made the grade the 4S's now have to catch up and that was what the original comments were all about (a long time ago) and coming home to roost.

The thing with changes in 2S design is that from the EPA's view point a 2S is capable of outputing less pollution (read oil residue) than a typcial 4S even though a 2S actually burns oil where as a 4S technically doesn't the 2S based on this design apparently consumes the lot in the burn where as 4S's no matter what they are still exhaust some oil as if any 4S doesn't use oil is a worry.

As for 4S's having plenty of room to develop well then 4S's have been in their infancy for lots (tens) of years then.

As for a hybrid? yep that's a 6 stroke :D

Cheers, Kerry.

[mackmauler]

[quote author=Kerry link=board=Boats;num=1112702216;start=60#68 date=04/10/05 at 16:44:20Now that 2 strokes have made the grade the 4S's now have to catch up #

[/quote]


Are we talking about etecs? after the ficht I wouldnt say they have made any grades and still unproven technology.

if the 2 strokes still arent as quiet as the 4 strokes they havnt made my grade, theres no question the direct injection 2 strokes do stink, light and day between a 4 stroke.

couple of things to make the grade still ;)

[Kerry]

What's being said is that the 2S's can equal or in this EPA decision better 4S exhaust emmisions, which was the primary push of 4S's into the outboard market to meet 2006 emmision standards. 4S's were the easy way out at the time to meet emmision standards.

The other attributes will always be one of those things that some will want to hinge the discussions about but it would appear that where 4S's had a clear advantage in some critical areas this advantage could be turning around.

To say the gap is not narrowing or actually on a total point basis swayed/swaying in favour of 2S possibilities is really becoming hard to contradict. #

Cheers, Kerry.

[basserman]

well i'm sure we can all say with all these new motor alwasy comeing out and trying to outdo each other it is all good for the coustomer all he or she needs to do now is decide 2st 4st brand!
as i'm looking at a boat this is one decision that i'm really looking into boats easy that decided just need to work out how i'm going to power it

[Mad_Barry]

These are pic frames from a spreadsheet I did up comparing 90's last year. I didn't upgrade then as my 60 was a bit too new & would have dumped a small fortune in selling / trading it.

Keep in mind, prices are therefore now a yr old, and even then were only phone the dealer type prices. No haggling, shopping around etc. just for comparison, now obviously subject to up dating. Some are alloy prop, some stainless. #Weights & specs pulled from relevant web sites/brochures.

Sorted by weight

[Mad_Barry]

sorted by engine size,

[Mad_Barry]

sorted by price,

[Big_Kev]

So can someone tell me why the Etech costs so much?

[Mad_Barry]

The price (of just about anything) is more often that not, dictated by what consumers are prepared to pay.

I'd love to expand a lot on that spreadsheet and include fuel ecomomy and say a 5yr/10yr total servicing & running costs comparison (with depreciation schedule ;D), but haven't got the friggin time #:)

[Kerry]

So can someone tell me why the Etech costs so much?


Why oh why are we getting into BRAND names (who gives a rats about specific BRAND names) remember 2S v 4S 2S v 4S but just maybe you get what you pay for, initial cost is really irrelvant in the overall scheme of things (this is reality) but don't have to pay thru the nose down the track etc etc :-/


Cheers, Kerry.

[mackmauler]

2S vs 4S, but there are big differences obv that the 2 strokes the vast majority have dont come anywhere close to what a 4 stroke can achieve fuel wise or emission wise, so we are comparing a small amount of 2 strokes that bugger all have or want as they want the cheaper ones that burn more fuel... so where does this leave the older 2 strokes so many are happy with regards the epa standards. ??? or have i missed a point somewhere.

[phewy]

On 8/04 tonyp wrote
"Dont get confused then,but dont put E-tec 2 stroke in the same sentence of the oily smelly, rough 2 stroke bracket. There is a big difference."

Fine, but.... #

Dont get confused then,but dont put 4 stroke EFI in the same sentence of the lack of punch/power and rougher 4 stroke carby bracket. There is a big difference. #

Only jesting, but seriously, to me it looks like this (have not researched dates/history etc, so I'm sure I'll be corrected by people with nothing better to do)

2strokes - Been around for donkeys (Noah probably had one as an aux on the ark)
along comes Mr Gov
Mr Gov - "TOO MUCH POLUTION - PLEASE FIX"
Mr 4 st - "Is that better"
Mr Gov - "YES MUCH BETTER THANKS"
Mr Public - "But wheres my power gone?"
Mr FICHT 2 st - "How bout this?"
Mr 4 st - "HA HA HA"
Mr public - "HA HA HA"
Mr E- Tec 2 st - "How bout this then?"
Mr 4 st (with frown)- "ooooohhhh"
Mr Gov - "excellent"
Mr Public - "excellent"
Mr EFI 4 st - "How bout this then?"
Mr Public - "excellent too"

And note that Mr Public said "excellent too" regarding 4 st's latest offering. He thinks both motors are excellent, very much on par.

[Kerry]

So can someone tell me why the Etech costs so much?


Why oh why are we getting into BRAND names (who gives a rats about specific BRAND names) remember it's 2S v 4S that is 2S v 4S but just maybe you get what you pay for ;D, initial cost is really irrelvant in the overall scheme of things (this is reality you know ;)) but don't have to pay thru the nose down the track etc etc :-/


Cheers, Kerry.

[Kerry]

....And note that Mr Public said "excellent too" regarding 4 st's latest offering. He thinks both motors are excellent, very much on par....

Reminds me of some "useless infomation" (just grin and bear the terminology :)) I heard the other day :D

The US spent a million bucks just to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity, upside down in space and all that sort of stuff :o

The Russians :-X well they used a pencil.

There's something in all of this that says Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS :-*)

Cheers, Kerry.

[tonyp]

Mr public - "HA HA HA"
Mr E- Tec 2 st - "How bout this then?"
Mr 4 st (with frown)- "ooooohhhh"
Gov - "excellent"
Mr Public - "excellent"
Mr EFI 4 st - "How bout this then?"
Mr Public - "excellent too"

And note that Mr Public said "excellent too" regarding 4 st's latest offering. He thinks both motors are excellent, very much on par.

Yep all above ;D

[Kerry]

....dont come anywhere close to what a 4 stroke can achieve fuel wise or emission wise

... so where does this leave the older 2 strokes so many are happy with regards the epa standards. ??? or have i missed a point somewhere.

Well Mack it would appear that the emmision thingie is a non event anymore, one could also ask how many cars are running around our roads that shouldn't be burning ULP or PULP or for that matter any petrol at all #;)

Don't won't to diverge #;) but did you realize catalytic are the biggest producers of sh!t when an engine is first started but then the same authority who started all this environmental outboard BS also put into action dates for catalytic convertors on marine engines, like who has ever heard of a water cooled engine with a cat convertor #::) but that wasn't their problem, their response was , well they are just going to have to design one aren't they, yeah right, design one #[smiley=lost.gif]
#
Ah yeah EPA standards many do forget that 4S's do have oil #;D

Cheers, Kerry.
#

[finga64]

The US spent a million bucks just to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity, upside down in space and all that sort of stuff

The Russians well they used a pencil.

There's something in all of this that says Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS )

That's just grand Kerry, I'll remeber that.
Thanks Scott