More Trailer Troubles ...... Brakes This Time..

[adamleah]

Ok Fellas ..

After Cheechs troubles I thought I'd better look at my bearings as it had been about 28 months since I checked em last ....

Took the first wheel off to find a monstrosity of problems ... Disk plate rusted to the MAXXX and calipers only just holding in there ...Brakes mustnt have workd for 2 yrs at a guess... :-/... Must admit Bearings were still perfect though .. well the front one was as I couldnt remove the calipers on one side.

God knows how I let it get that bad .... But the problem is there ....

I need to know if anyone can reccommend where i can get the Discs remilled "If its Possible " and where I can buy Calipers at a "Good Price"

Heres a couple of pics to show you what can happen when you dont do progressive maintenance :-/ :-/

[aido]

shite adam, i had a horror like that greet me last month.
decided to go with new mechanical disks/calipers/axle
ready to roll. was about 400 bucks from memory.
the thread is here...
http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/board/YaBB.cgi?board=Boats;action=display;num=1110370595 ;start=0

[phewy]

sh!tes right!! Disc beyond repair I'd say. Heed aido's advice and go all new. Would be best i think.

[cooky]

found a similar thing the other week on one wheel. not as bad, but disc brakes not working properly - sort of locking on - pads were stuffed. disc rotor covered with surface rust, so new pads would just get chewed out. My father believes there is a bloke who turns up with a mobile re-finisher - don't have to take brakes off trailer (he's checking it out for me)

[Kerry]

28 months #:-X well I could say lack of maintenance #:o but I do believe you already realize this #;)

Dunno , wouldn't just a complete new axle be cheaper ??? than all the stuffing around #:-X

Really there is absolutely no reason why things should ever get to this stage, there is more to boating than simply putting it in, pulling it out and washing it #;D #;D

You know those actually look like alco axles (apart from the lack of maintenance #;)) #not all that bad if looked after [smiley=2thumbsup.gif] #

Still think a fresh start is the way to go. Maybe a kick in the hip pocket might get remembered down the track.

Cheers, Kerry.

[bungie]

Have seen a boat trailer with brakes, he had a sprinkler system set up, one on each wheel. Just plugged his hose on to it each time he came in. Ran the hose for 30 secs on each side and it flushed it all clean.

[NQCairns]

G'Day Adamleah, If you decide to buy a new lot consider 3 or so coats of cold gal etc onto any surface that is prone to surface rust (even calipers) before you fit them, works wonders over time and helps to attract a persons attention toward any rusty portion later. Of coarse threads, disk surfaces and bearing/seal surfaces need to stay naked but I know you know that!
Cheers nq

[blaze]

Use to use a product called whitelead years ago to smear parts prone to rust, used to work a treat, it put a coating on a bit like grease but dried hard but could be removed with a wire brush
cheers
blaze

[finga64]

Hey Adam leah, I'd have a good look at the axle/rubber suspension as well. It looks as though it's rusting pretty bad. Some of those worked on steel torsion bars inside rubber packers. The steel swells with rust and eventually the suspension stops to work, and eventually the steel bars fail and the wheel falls off. :'(
I'd get rid of the rubber suspension and put galv. springs under it. You can see springs and see how bad they get.

[Cheech]

Adam,

That was going to be my "Great Wheel Bearing Discusion, part 5".

I actually have a rusted disk problem as well. But not as bad as yours.

One side although very rusted, is still straight, and with all the use I give the boat since buying it, it has added a shine to the disk.

The other side, was rusted to the extent that the rust crust started to form and half of it flaked off. During my maintenance work, I managed to chip off the rest of the flaked rust so it is now actually flat and reasonably smooth underneath. What I will do is see how it goes over the next couple of trips and if it starts to shine up just from the brake pad wear and not trash the pads, then all will be good. I actually noticed the brakes working better already.

If it looks like it needs to be fixed properly, I think it would be a minor job on a lathe, or a proper brake pad machine to cut down to below the rust surface and machine a new smooth finish.

I am sure others will comment that I should "fix it properly!! what the hell are you doing!!". But is not a big deal as the boat tows well and brakes well at the moment with the trailer brakes doing some of the work and the car doing most. If I had a heavier boat then I would probably look at it differently.

Cheech

[Spaniard_King]

If any of you guys can use a guy on the Gold Coast his number is 0418767055 and he likes cash :-X

Cheapest way is for you to pull the calipers off and have it ready for him to come and attach his machine, he will get em back to new if ya have enough meat for him to machine

Don't know but he may have a contact for you guys in Brisbane area.

Garry

[adamleah]

Thanks for all the input fellas ... And YES Kerry .. I realize I need to do more maintenance and have learnt the hard way ... :-*

I haven't much $$$ at the moment so was hoping on getting away with it as cheap as I could? so need more assistance maybe. ;)

The trailer brakes are hydraulic at present so unsure if I can put mechanical ones on ?? If so do I have to change the trailer hitch ? If not how physically do the mechanical brakes work when driving ? I thought the mechanical brakes were only like a handbrake?

As for the axle....I had no idea how my springs worked until DFox ran me through the "Alco" Rubber springs thing yesterday .. The springs still have movement so was hoping they are still ok ?... the rust doesnt seem too bad where the outer bit joins the axel so I will have to scrub it up and see .... That and my boat only just fits in the garage with these springs ,, If I put on Leafs I think it wouldn't fit... :o :o and Dont want that to happen..

So back to the Discs.... after I scrub up the axles ... how much you think it would cost to get them shinied back up if applicable? I'll try the guys mentioned by Aido for more info on what is best also...

While I'm at it ... how does one maintain the brakes regularly ? Every time I used to take the boat out I'd hose behind each wheel , I thought quite sufficiently ... Should one lubricate after every trip? At present the boat is only getting used about every 2 months ... Due to fishing commitments with Dave ;D ;D No complaints here ;D ;D ... If this is always the case what would you recommend to do to them .?

Thanks again for your help ...

Adam

[aido]

i know trailers are a necessary evil for most of us,
but the damned trailer irks me no end.
i loathe hitching it up, hate towing it, detest launching
and retrieving especially, the cleaning problems and of
course the maintenance nightmare.
perhaps i'll invent a boat with retractable wheels at the transom
and a tow hitch for a bollard.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[blaze]

Hi Adam
Bit of the rough old mechanic coming out here, get a 4" angle grind with a COURSE SANDING DISK and sand off the rust, I know they wont be perfect, but a cheap option, tap off the other rust and free up the bits ya can, couple of new wheel cycinders at about $20 ea, set of new sets of brake lines. Paint whatever does move with gold galv regularly, then use your trailer a lot and the brake disk will stay clean, also give it a rinse with fresh water.
Now thats the rough way to do it to save a $ not the proper
cheers
blaze

[Kerry]

Adam, #;) That's the rule never make the same mistake twice.

Hydraulic to cable? Well brakes are well brakes and both will go the same way if let go that far. Presume your not that heavy and can get away with mechanicals etc but you really have close to the best brake system there is, well apart from the rust #:-X at present #:D

The place to ask about fitting mechanicals would be Alco and yes if you don't have an overide style hitch then you would need one for mechanicals.

However regarding the cost al least do some foot work before starting to repair as generally what you "estimate" it might cost normally ends up doubled (for all sorts of reasons) and could cost more than simply a replacement, which at least you know up front what it's going to cost and no surprises. #

Brake maintenance? well you might notice this looks familar, now 15 years old but today the swing arm is black (Permatar). For a few hundred bucks the (4) pistons were replaced in 1995 with 316 SS machined to match the original steel version. At the time was replacing the steel versions every 12 months, including the seals etc at about $100 for the four but a sh!t load of time including bleeding etc etc. Yes cost was more but the pistons haven't been out since, they don't rust and cut the crap out of the seals either. These days brakes have to work all the time. #
http://www.cqnet.com.au/~user/aitken/axle_SR_w.jpg

The biggest drama with the original calipers were the gun metal crud attracting slide pins, which some years ago were replaced with matching brass versions. Forget all the caliper compound stuff, doesn't really work in water (as I found out) and these days don't use boots on the pins and use anti-sieze on the slide pins, always free and always slide. In this case the mixture of cast calipers, brass slides, steel bolts and anti-sieze does't have a problem with corroding or binding, works wonders.

The whole assembly is hosed and hosed and hosed and sprayed (and I mean sprayed) with standard CRC out of a (7 litre) garden spray as if one can drop the whole thing in the salt then a bit of CRC ain't going to hurt anything and only takes a few 100 metres on the road to clear the discs and pads. # # #

Cheers, Kerry.
#

[Tracker]

adam,
you have a local bloke in the redlands. cruising chris, should be in ph book.he tows a maroon trailer.
cheers

[Mr__Bean]

I have a 10 by 5 tandem box trailer trailer that has only one of the axles braked, It is a hydraulic override brake and it works a treat.

On my tandem boat trailer (new), it has mechanical override disc brakes on both axles.

I have to say the hydraulic single axle has a heap more braking power than the pair of mechanical ones.

I wouldn't walk away from your hydraulic setup without thought, the mechanical ones can't come close to the braking effort of a hydraulic.

The rest has been covered by Kerry.

Cheers,

- Bean

[Morlers]

The whole assembly is hosed and hosed and hosed and sprayed (and I mean sprayed) with standard CRC out of a (7 litre) garden spray as if one can drop the whole thing in the salt then a bit of CRC ain't going to hurt anything and only takes a few 100 metres on the road to clear the discs and pads. # # #

Read this bit with interest Kerry. I realise it would save rust problems but is it wise from a safety point of view ??? I know your rig is a very large one and with hydraulic brakes. Would doing this be a problem with a smaller/lighter boat say like my 5.1m Haines with over-ride breaks (all up weight of around 1,300kg for B/M/T) ???

Thanks for the info

:) :)

Morlers

[troy]

adamleigh
i do not wish to steal your thread or distract from it.
but i ran into trouble on the previous trailer i had while changing the wheel bearings.
llook at your picture and see how the callipers are still over the hub.
i found that i could not take the hub off because of the callipers.
when taking the callipers off i could not take them off without uddoing the springs because the nuts holding the callippers on were approx 2 inches long the the space between the disc and springs was only 3/4 inch thus not allowing the callippers to be taken off.
is there a special way around this like is there a nut you can loosen that will allow the callipers to be turned on an angle so you can remove the hub.
any help would be appreciated as i have to fix the problem as i have sold the boat and i do not wish to sell something that is faulty
troy

[blaze]

Hi Troy
Just put the bolts back in the nuts on the other side
cheers
blaze

[troy]

hi blaze
this is very hard for me to explain and i do not want to put you on the wrong track.but if i turned the bolts around the other way would this not make it that you still would not be able to remove the calippers as instead of the bolts hitting the springs they would now hit the hub when trying to take the callipers off.
like i said blaze it is diffuluct to explain and i do not have the camera set up to post a photo .
thanks
troy

[dfox]

Troy- if its anything like my trailer, the manufacturers (who by the way have been building trailers for quite some time) have done the same thing.
Ive sat down and studied the set up for quite some time and have come to the conclussion that the builder was either dumb or just plain stupid.
Im quite machanically minded and the solution was to build the trailer with the main stringers about 20mm narrower on each side to allow the caliper bolts anough room to undo. Obviously this is too late now, so its either loosen the spring u bolts or drill access holes through the stringers (which will weaken the trailer) :-[
It should be interesting changing a wheel bearing on the highway, but i carry all the gear needed to do this.
If i come up with a better solution i'll let you know mate. ;D
Blaze- my set up wont work by reversing the bolts :-[

[blaze]

get the drift now, comes down to poor (probably not the right word) engineering
cheers
blaze

[troy]

dfox
spot on and the trailer is a belco.
i am pleased you understood what i was meaning as i did not to confuse blaze.terrible set up if you did a bearing on the side of the road and not knowing this set up you would be in real trouble.
thanks
troy

[mako_5.2]

Troy
You should be able to undo the bolts out of the plate and slide the calliper off without removing the bolts completely from the calliper if it is a mechanical disk set up. This would only mean pulling the bolts out about 5/8". I did mine last week.

[mako_5.2]

troy
try just backing the bolts off until out of the tapped thread in the calliper bracket (about 1/2") and slide the calliper off. No need to take the bolts right out . Mine is the same as Belco and I took them off last night no problems. Ps they were mechanical o/ride

[bugman]

Back on the brakes issue.

I'm in the process of pulling my hydrolic down again for the third time in 12 months. I'm getting ready for the trip up to Gladstone.

The issue I have constantly is the cup/piston not returning enough - leaving the brakes slightly on - or as time goes on - on a lot.

The rubber seal halfway inside the piston housing seems to be part of the problem - I've tried without grease and with a small smear of grease but the same problems occur.

The overall setup gets a good spray with lanotec or WD40 when going back on and a generous spray with water coming home but I admit I could probably do better here.

My issue overall is not braking - more going. Being so heavy I don't need the brakes on even 10% - makes a big difference to towing.

I've got three to do over the weekend so I'll take some photos for everyone.

Bugman

[troy]

mako 5 .2 i have not got the space to do what you are saying as the end of the bolt was nearly touching the spring.
you see i have had the brakes disconnected since i first noticed this problem.
now that it is ready to be sold i am going to have to take the springs off to get the callippers on.
and then if i go to all that trouble the problem is not fixed for the buyer and i would not be happy doing that.
thanks
troy
my problem seems to be exactly like dfox has said.

[blaze]

Hi Bugman
DONT USE NORMAL GREASE ON THE BRAKE RUBBERS, only use the correct rubber grease, Brakes rely on the disc having up to a 5 thou wobble in them to help return the pistons, when they are machined they may have been machined wrong. A lot of brake calippers cab be machined and a stainless sleeve and piston fitted, food for thought, cost 2 arms and 3 legs I reckon
cheers
blaze
ps
having you armless mmight be a good thing bugman, you would have to leave the crays alone

[adamleah]

OK Fellas , have been way too busy too do anything about this until this morning and now i am still unsure on what will need to be done.

I have spoken to a few manufacturers mentioned in Aidos Post and they have all been of great help.... So this is my drama now.....

-The ALCO axle/springs seem chuffed "movement of only 5-10mm" so will need new axel and springs also..

-My boat has currently got 9 inch rims of which noone makes disks to suit ::). smallest is 10inch disc for 14 inch rim so this would mean I need to buy new rims/tyres also. and then boat wouldnt fit in garage..... :'( :'( They do however make a 9 inch hydraulic drum set up.. What are drums like in marine applications Aidos didnt seem to like it too much???"

-I have checked my rego papers and it says my trailer is rated at only 1.02 tonne at the moment.. I have no idea what the boat would weigh but I am certain it would be over this ? So I am guessing I have been using an illegal trailer anyway ...

- 9 inch drum braked would allow for 1400kg ... This would allow me to fit in garage with new springs "fingers crossed" but does my boat weigh this much? I have emailed Haines signature for weight details and am awaiting for more info...
Ill put another post up in Boating seeing if anyone else can help ...

Oh well Brakes will have to be another weekend... Whos taking me fishing ;D

[dfox]

;D ;D ;D

[aido]

hi adam,
not that i'd recommend drum brakes after what happened to mine
though tinka thought they had merit 20 years ago.
20 years is a long time, and i reacon they would go for maybe 5 yrs
before drama, they are good brakes when working.
i could help you out with my old axle/hubbs, they are ht holden stud
pattern, 2100mm wheel face to face.
you would then need to get the drum brake backing plates (not that dear)
a spring kit and you are in business.
you can probably get hydraulic drum backing plates and use your existing
override cylinder/ lines.
this is probably the cheapest solution for you right now.

my axle is 45mm solid square, ground clean and tripple rust guard treated.
zinc coating/primer/top coated.
http://users.tpg.com.au/adessaix/axle.jpg
let me know if it's any use to you?

[adamleah]

Aido,
Much thanks for the offer , Your a champ..., I will look into it further this week and get back to you ...... :D

[bugman]

Adam,

I had drums on the old rig and even though I've got a couple of issues with my hydrolic disk - I'd never go back to drums.

They just we're designed to be dumped in salt water all the time. Nothing is sealed properly - even on the marine version.

As for me - well I finished the job but didn't take any photos because Leanne had the digi.

The old Bogey goes like grease lightning now. I reckon I can make the run to Gladstone in record time. I think the Landie even have me a smile as i walked past - she'll be happy now.

Bugman

PS - 1 out of 4 was working correctly.