Flares, are they any use.

[SeaHunt]

I put the boat in for a service the other day, the dealer wanted me to take everything out that was not bolted down, I was taking the flares out and realised they might be nearly out of date, sure enough they had just expired, great that will be another $70 dollars on top of the service fee. #:P

These things are sealed in plasic and in the same condition as when I bought them, I let them off, they still work just fine. # ::)
But what surprised me is they only go for like 20 seconds or so, the chances of anyone seeing them seems pretty remote, even if you can see that other boat on the horizon, how would you know they were looking when you let them off?
With radio , EPIRB, V sheet and strong torch on board they seem to be pointless these days.
Has anyone on here EVER actually used one ?
I mean for the purpose for which they were designed? # [smiley=helpa.gif] :D

[DR]

who's the dodgy service centre that doesn't let you leave stuff in your boat???? must be bad if the staff can't be trusted not to tax your gear!!

[finga64]

.....and they charge $70 for 4 flares when everyone else is $50 for the 4 :-?

[MickS]

I have been out at sea, at night in heavy weather(Bris to Gladstone yacht race) and saw a red parachute flare that had been let off some 4 miles away, and even with the lights of Mooloolaba glowing against the flare it was easily recognised, and it's position located quickly through plotting the location of various boats who also reported the flare.

For me, it's a no brainer. Carry as much saftey gear as possible and with luck you will never have to use it, but if you do it will be worth every cent you paid.

[sf17fisherman]

no flares are all that usefull now days and when worn you get alot of stange looks unless your at a abba concert
i belive however in the 60's when worn you was seen as a god ::)


i have two set of flares in my boats one is the old out of date set to be used first and then the good set if they are needed still however ontop of that a couple of red parra flares are even better as they shoot into the air and come down slowly and thus can be seen from a great distance and for longer ;)

all the safty gear has a time and place
lets put it this way your battery in the boat dies and you start to sink (no power to use the radio and no time to erect a vee sheet you grab your grab bag and epirb but the epirb slips out of your hand and floats away thus leaveing you with only your flairs and touch *water and what else you have in the gab bag*)
only time you really need the stuff would be the time you don't have it thank you murphys law >:(

[SeaHunt]

who's the dodgy service centre that doesn't #let you leave stuff in your boat???? must be bad if the staff can't be trusted not to tax your gear!!

I think they are more worried about people climbing over the fence , and then having to replace a $2000 sounder etc.

[Grand_Marlin]

They have an expiry date due to the possibility of getting moisture in them / breaking down over time.
I have let off some out of date ones on my elements of shipboard safety course done in Cairns.
A few notes from this:
1) A few of the out of date flares didnt work.
2) The 45 ft boat we were on was marked "training Ship"
3) It was advertised in the paper that there would be flares let off in the Trinity Inlet, part way out along the leads.
4) There were a heap of calls to the coast guard on our behalf - i.e. vessel in distress, due to the flares being let off, even in the day.

So to answer your question, yes they do work - very well.

Also keep in mind that you would use your safety gear in an order depending on your situation.
Firstly you would grab the radio.

Murphys law says that what ever can go wrong, will go wrong - and boy does this seem to be true on boats.

If you were lucky enough to break down on a mirror flat calm day, who cares - just wait for the coast guard to come and get you.

But alas - it normally happens on the rough, shitty days and for logical reason.

Number one problem - fuel systems, and more precisely, water in fuel. When it is rough the water gets stirred up through the fual and invariably ends up in the carby (even with a water separating fuel filter if there is enough of it)
This also includes mechanical failures.

Secondly - swamping.
If this happens:
1) You are unlikely to have a radio, bilge pump or any electronics that work.
You will find out very quickly that the 2000gph bilgepump is no where near adequate. - you would honestly want 10 of them. - a panicking bloke with a bucket is way more effective
2) If the boat sinks, you cant hold up a v sheet,
3) epirb is handy now...
4) a boat search or aerial search is very very very difficult, as they can not see you in rough water - especially if your boat is painted white (90% are) or has sank.
5) Currently, epirbs give an indication of your position (I think 20nm radius) but direction finding instruments are needed on planes / search boats to pin point you with an epirb. not many rescue organistations carry this gear (correct me if I am wrong)

In this situation only 2 things will help you to be seen.
1) Flares
2) Fluorescent sea marker dye

Flares will still work if you are in the water, and tend to stand out like dogs nuts when contrasted against a grey sea.

If you end up in this situation, you will wish you had 400 flares, not 4.

My advice, for what it is worth:

If you strike any trouble at all - get straight on the radio and let someone, preferably coast guard, know your position and that you are experiencing trouble, and to stand by for you. Rough or calm weather - at least someone is watching should you get into more trouble.

Keep all your old flares on the boat - it is not illegal to have out of date flares, but you must have a pack of in date flares.

Get a crew member to get the lifejackets / epirb / flares together - swimming into a submerged cabin to find this stuff is not recommended.

Try and rectify your problem as best as you can

Deploy sea anchor / anchor or long length of rope to try and pull nose of boat into wind / waves.

If all else fails and you end up in the water...
Make sure you have lifejacket on. It is now that you will be glad that you bought good quality PFD type 1 jackets.

Stay together at all costs.

Use your flares if you see boat / plane etc APPROACHING... chances of being seen when they are going away from you are a lot less.
Also use any other method of alerting them - whistle on jacket, torch, yell, wave arms

Trying to swim in any large sea is hopeless and only tires you out quicker - more chance of hypothermia - even in the tropics.

If they know where you are, sooner or later they will find you, but dont expect it to be a 5 minute process.... it could take an hour or more.

Try and stay as calm as possible (is hard)

Sharks are the least of your worries - hell, I cant even catch them when I go looking for them, so the chances of them turning up are very minimal.

Make sure you have enough jackets etc for all on board and to cater for all sizes - especially kids.
If needed, all the safety gear you have will never be enough...

Hopefully you will never have to use it.

How do I know?

Getting caught unexpectantly in 8 metre seas and 60 knots of wind in a 17ft boat of the south east coast of Tasmania tends to take you through a very steep learning curve.
Being in 8 degree water with 8 meter seas breaking over you, having to hold your breath till you surface.... constantly doing this for an hour...
When you are within minutes of losing your life to hypothermia, whilst holding your younger brother who is already unconscious due to hypothermia...
well I guess I understand it better than most.

The police said we were extremely lucky to survive.

The only reason they said we survived was because we were well equiped.

Next time you question whether flares are worth it.... remember my story

Cheers,
Pete

[SeaHunt]

.....and they charge $70 for 4 flares when everyone else is $50 for the 4 :-?

Where do you get them for $50?

Last set were $66 (price was still on box) and that was over 3 years ago. :-?

[SeaHunt]

no flares are all that usefull now days and when worn you get alot of stange looks unless your at a abba concert
i belive however in the 60's when worn you was seen as a god ::)
>:(

I think you #mean the 70's , but hey I am still laughing. # #:D # :D



i have two set of flares in my boats one is the old out of date set to be used first


You can still get fined for having out of date flares in your boat , EVEN if you have current ones in there as well (that is what they told me at least), that is why I let em off to see how they work. # :(
And don't think the water cops wont be that pedantic. #

[Grand_Marlin]

$49.90 at Bias boating

[sf17fisherman]

hey if they are that finiky well i will were the fine but will never change my ways

as stated above when the $hit hits the fan you can never have enoght flares and safty gear to save yourself

i'm sure a break a few laws everytime i head out in a boat but i prefure to have as much chance as i can to get back home

thing i break are like haveing old flares on board and wearing impropper lifejacktes (non australian standard self inflating vest that can be worn all day long and not feels uncomftable)

then again where i am i'm unlikely to run into the water cops only the waterways and they already know me well enoght ;)

[SeaHunt]

If you end up in this situation, you will wish you had 400 flares, not 4.



Probably more my point , I had no idea they burned off that quickly and for the day time ones how quickly the orange smoke dispersed.
Since you only have to carry two (of each type) you would want to be fairly sure someone was watching BEFORE you fired it up.

[Grand_Marlin]

I was just talking to MAritime Safety Qld.
As far as thay are aware and as far as they are concerned the immediate out of date flares are quite ok to keep on the boat, so long as you have current flares too.
It seems that even they have had reports of authorities (police) booking people for out of date flares, even with the current flares on board.
Maritime Safety Qld thinks it is not right, and are now looking into the legislation to see where they have gained their authority to book people for this.
It looks at this point that if anyone has been booked for this that it is indeed unlawful, and should not have happened - I will keep you posted.
Actually, it might be worth starting another page to see if anyone has had this trouble...
Cheers
Pete

[trueblue]

Remember with flares, parachute flares are VERY different to normal hand held flares.

Your normal mandatory safety kit DOES NOT include parachute flares.

Parachute flares can be used when you hope someone is able to see it!

Hand held flares are only to be used when you KNOW someone can see it. Orange for the day time, Red for the night time. Only use it to attract attention AFTER sighting someone who will be able to see you when you set off the flare.

Parachute flares can be seen from much further away, and are spectacular at night - but don't assume they are in the little sealed plastic bag you get for mandatory safety gear flares - you have to buy these separately.

Mick

[New_fisher]

5) Currently, epirbs give an indication of your position (I think 20nm radius) but direction finding instruments are needed on planes / search boats to pin point you with an epirb. not many rescue organistations carry this gear (correct me if I am wrong)


Grand Marlin, just to let you know - the only direction finding equipment needed is already carried on virtually all aircraft, as well as rescue craft. All military, airline and most charter aircraft will monitor these frequencies at all times and we'll often report a beacon (EPIRB) that has gone off and can instantly tell authorities the location of the signal. This is for the 121/243mHz EPIRB's. With the new ones - the 406 mHz, the EPIRB will send the position (lat/long) to rescue authorities so then any boat/helicopter/aircraft or energetic swimmer with a hand held gps can track and search for the EPIRB.

So rest assured that if the worst does happen, there will be someone to come and get you - the newer 406mHz EPIRBs will have your position to rescue authorities a lot quicker than the 121/243 type, Cheers Ray

[Grand_Marlin]

Thanks Ray, that clarifies that for me
cheers
Pete

[Mantaray]

With the new ones - the 406 mHz, the EPIRB will send the position (lat/long) to rescue authorities

And how do they do this?

[Grand_Marlin]

Mantaray,
It is all to do with hydraulics....

[Mantaray]

Mantaray,
# It is all to do with hydraulics....




that's very good, please go on.

[Dave]

I just had to replace my flares as they expired jan 06. when I was buying the new ones (bias 49.90) I asked if you could have the old ones on the boat as well. Told that if you declared that you had out of date flares at time of questioning you would be fined. Told simply dont tell or show out fo date flares.
I said isnt it better to have to many than not enough. They replied that if out of date flares went off in cabin area insurance would not cover. I am no wizz on how these things work but is it possible to have them go off by them selves?
I think I will be keeping these in a seperate part from the in date ones and my safety gear. SSShhh.

Dave

[New_fisher]

Mantaray,
the newer type EPIRB's 406mHz are much better because of the way that they operate, they transmit a signal to satellites which in turn send a signal to the rescue authorities containing information such as your lat/long, EPIRB identification number (if you register your EPIRB, they will know who you are, that way your family can tell the authorities how many people where in the boat etc) and other info. This takes place a lot quicker and more accurate than the older type EPIRB's, Cheers, Ray

[Mantaray]

so where do these newer type of epirbs's get this lat/long info from? can understand the registration info which is fixed but lat/longs they would change, wouldn't they?

[bay_firey]

Not ALL of the new 406mhz epirbs transmit lat/long, only the dearer ones with the inbuilt gps.

It is possible to purchase a 406mhz epird that does not transmit actual lat and long

Why are they better

Imagine if you will - 3 things are needed for the epirb system
1 The EPIRB
2 The sattelite (relaying station)
3 The ground station (receiving station)

The older analogue 121/243 mhz epirb requires the sattelite (relaying station) to be able to see BOTH the eprib and the ground station ( receiving station) at the SAME time

The new digital 406 mhz enables the sattelite to store the signal from the EPIRB and tranmit (relay) the signal as soon as a ground station is visible to the satelite - the satelite does not have to be able to see both at the same time

[Grand_Marlin]

Well Mantaray it works like this.
The way epirbs relay signals is totally dependant on hydraulics...
For instance - the excavator used to dig out for the slab where they designed and built not only the epirb, but the satelites that it relies upon, worked on hydraulics... therefore one would philosophise that without hydraulics an epirb would not be able to relay signals....

Should I go on?

.......... sorry....... ;D

[HarryO]

Hi all..

The standard 406mhz EPIRB sends a digital signal via
satelite direct to SAR, whereas the current 121.5/243 mhz
sends an analogue signal on a distress frequency which is
monitored and relayed to SAR.
The new units are much quicker and more accurate, the signal
it sends is an individual code with the owners/vessels details
as well as contact numbers.

The more upmarket units (about $2k) have an inbuilt GPS
which also relays constant positional data to enable SAR
to pinpoint the beacon to within 100 metres.

Interesting that they will still transmit the 121.5 mhz signal
as well.

Harry.

[sf17fisherman]

why are we soo far off track from flairs here and who gives a rats how a epirb works aslong at it works ::)

what the saying ' if it saves you just once a year then it's a good year'

i'm not that worrie how some of these things work or how they transmit and computerise my location as long as they do and i can be saved and get home to my family ;)

p.s. Mantaray if your soo intrested in knowing how they work and why they work why don't you give the fellas at wessic pain a phone or GME who make the things
who knows they may even give you a factory tour :o

[Grand_Marlin]

Sorry for getting sidetracked SF17... I researched the out of date flare issue, and this is the result (taken from my other post)

Ok, the latest from the Maritime Safety Queensland.

a) It is illegal to poses out of date flares or any ordinance under the Mines and Energy Act.

BUT

b) Both Maritime Safety Qld and the Police believe that it is quite ok to carry out of date flares on your boat, provided that you also have current dated flares.

c) They have both said they would not prosecute due to having out of date flares in conjunction with current dated flares.

d) It appears that the Department of Mines and Energy had a conference a couple of years ago and this issue was raised. Therefore due to "grey areas" in the legislation, a number of individuals decided to take it upon themselves to book people for this, even though it is not a major issue according to Mines and Energy, and not common practice from the Police.

e) Maritime Safety Qld and the Police recommend that you only carry the previous out of date flares. i.e. if your last packet and discard any previous flares as they can sweat and self ignite - not likely, but possible.

f) Maritime Safety Qld has today raised this issue with the Commissioner of Police, who will distribute it amongst all officiaries that this will be the adopted practice and NO person should be prosecuted for carrying out of date flares.

g) Any discrepancies will be referred to the Mines and Energy Department, who as I understand, are not interested anyway.

So, unless you are carrying cartons and cartons of out of date flares, politely tell any Official Officer from any department to refer it back to Maritime Safety Qld, as it is not accepted practice to prosecute.

I hope this helps some people out.

Cheers

Pete

[Mantaray]

well my most humble of apologies for even daring to quiz an already made comment, how silly of me! now just what was i thinking to even dare quiz comments originally made by THE Grand_Marlin only to be chastised by the very person who made the original remarks, which were further commented on by Hurlz. Grand_marlin that is what some would call arogrance.

however now having done a little research of my own it really goes to show that not many know a lot about what they are talking about at all. oh no marlin time to quite while your only a little bit behind.

[Grand_Marlin]

Mantaray, In my eyes it is called light hearted humuor, not arrogance - get that straight. It was not personally aimed to belittle your interest, or level of knowledge.

There was no ill feeling meant, and if it was taken that way, well I do apologise, it wasn't meant as such.

I dont know exactly how the epirbs relay signals and information - if I did, I would say.

I did however manage to set the wheels in motion to quell the issue of people being booked for out of date flares.

If you are refering to my not having a clue what I am talking about when it comes to how epirbs relay information, then you are dead right.

If it is pointed at anything else I have posted on here, then my friend, I suggest you should research a little further...

Without Prejudice,

Pete

[troy]

well my most humble of apologies for even daring to quiz an already made comment, how silly of me! now just what was i thinking to even dare quiz comments originally made by THE Grand_Marlin only to be chastised by the very person who made the original remarks, which were further commented on by Hurlz. Grand_marlin that is what some would call arogrance.

however now having done a little research of my own it really goes to show that not many know a lot about what they are talking about at all. oh no marlin time to quite while your only a little bit behind. #
Well Mantaray why don't you tell us that would be interesting