Expired marine distress flares

[seatime]

How's this, I'd heard a whisper that marine distress flares were explosives under legislation and therefore it was an offence to possess them after their expiry date. So I inquired of the Dept of NR&M.

# # # # # # # # # # #It turns out under the Queensland Explosives Act 1999 and Explosives Regulation 2003 "distress flares are able to be kept for marine use and disposed of when their life has expired or their condition has deteriorated. Distress flares may become dangerous as they deteriorate. Expired flares may not be possessed or used in public places".
# # # # # # # # # # # While the Explosives Act 1999 doesn't necessarily prevent distress flares outside their shelf life being kept or used in boats in an emergency it is an offence to possess or use them in a public place! They also recommend proper disposal of flares upon their expiry. #
# # # # # # # # # # # MSQ legislation requires boats to have flares onboard which are within their shelf life (as recommended by the manufacturer). Do the manufacturers recommend keeping and using their flares past their shelf life?
# # # # # # # # # # # Although I don't remember ever seeing any Dept of NR&M officers out on the bay or at the boat ramp, it has made me think that next time I take my 4 kids out there will be some extra gear like, parachute flares, and for $50 an extra flare kit, and I'll hand in the old one, what price is safety. After all it is the minimum number of flares that is legislated not the maximum. There aren't any limits to the number and type of optional and extra saftey gear that can be carried onboard boats.
# # # # # # # # # # # There is sure to be lots of support for keeping old flares, just be aware of the dangers also, some contain a type of rocket fuel after all. cheers Steve

[toymod]

oh well once you are sinking and u shoot your old oes off in the bay "public place" there will be no eviedence left ;D

Good read though thanks

[Cheech]

I keep my old set on the boat.

Even if it was illegal, I would prefer to be alive and be able to argue the point.

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Gelsec,

The issue of being booked for having out of date flares came up a while ago.
I talked to Maritime Safety Qld, who gave me this information.


Sorry for getting sidetracked SF17... I researched the out of date flare issue, and this is the result (taken from my other post)

Ok, the latest from the Maritime Safety Queensland.

a) It is illegal to poses out of date flares or any ordinance under the Mines and Energy Act.

BUT

b) Both Maritime Safety Qld and the Police believe that it is quite ok to carry out of date flares on your boat, provided that you also have current dated flares.

c) They have both said they would not prosecute due to having out of date flares in conjunction with current dated flares.

d) It appears that the Department of Mines and Energy had a conference a couple of years ago and this issue was raised. Therefore due to "grey areas" in the legislation, a number of individuals decided to take it upon themselves to book people for this, even though it is not a major issue according to Mines and Energy, and not common practice from the Police.

e) Maritime Safety Qld and the Police recommend that you only carry the previous out of date flares. i.e. if your last packet and discard any previous flares as they can sweat and self ignite - not likely, but possible.

f) Maritime Safety Qld has today raised this issue with the Commissioner of Police, who will distribute it amongst all officiaries that this will be the adopted practice and NO person should be prosecuted for carrying out of date flares.

g) Any discrepancies will be referred to the Mines and Energy Department, who as I understand, are not interested anyway.

So, unless you are carrying cartons and cartons of out of date flares, politely tell any Official Officer from any department to refer it back to Maritime Safety Qld, as it is not accepted practice to prosecute.

I hope this helps some people out.

Cheers

Pete

You are completely correct in what you have posted, but as stated, Mines & Energy aren't really interested in a packet of out of date flares. They would however be interested in say a carton of flares or maybe a packet of 20 year out of date flares, due to the safety factor.

We wanted to clear this issue up, for the fact that it keeps getting handed around and scaring people for no real reason. At the time MSQ, the Police and Mines & Energy had not had a practical agreement on what to do with the situation.

If it is of any interest to you, the rest of this thread talked about why / if you should have to have flares.

I agree with you, and did say so in this post mentioned, that if the s*&t hits the fan, then you would wish you had a boatload of flares.

Cheers

Pete

[sf17fisherman]

as the other have said keep your olf ones to be used first and have the new packet there after them
however do not show the waterways or water rats the old flares
same as you extra safy gear if you have extra don't show it only show what you need by law that way what they don't know can't hurt them
i'm big into haveing more safty gear then required to by law also and although i have never been checks i would still only show what i need to

[seatime]

Grand Marlin, I should have done a search first, I was just surprised by what I heard about the mines dept. Boaties are still being advised today to keep old flares when it looks to me like things could have changed in 1999. And has it ever been good advise? I've been involved in merchant shipping and flares, which were kept in steel magazines, were always handed in upon expiry.
But we keep them on small boats that we take our families out in. Not anymore! What was I thinking.
Don't see the point of keeping the old ones, the expiry date is for good reason I imagine. Steve

[Grand_Marlin]

If looked after, they are like any other pyrotechnic or explosive.
Just as a backup, the question you raised "what do the manufacturers' recommend" is a great point.

I will be talking to RFD during the week, so I will ask and get back to you... really, the manufacturers' opinion should be considered the difinitive answer.

[sf17fisherman]

well if explosives shelf life was for only four years then heven help us if we ever have a war with many army magasines holding shells up around 20 years old

i have let flairs off that have been out of date for ten years and they lit and acted just like brand new ones

they are not that dangours and keeping a flair for 8 aposed to 4 years wouldn't worrie it in the slightest

only timeyou will get into tropuble if you leave them in direct sunlight all the time and they are always getting wet

[luress]

Great for the soccer ;D

[seatime]

G.M. How many boaties are aware of the regulations on storing and handling explosives. I'll bet these blind eyes being turned by QPS and MSQ will start rolling wildly if this ever had to be debated at a coroners inquest or court.
What about Club Marine's lawyers, think they will turn a blind eye, lack of "duty of care", unseaworthy, etc.
If the excrement hit the rotating cooling device for any reason, the expired flares you have onboard, with the lawyers' twisting and turning argument, might end up being an albatross around your neck!
If like me you have enormous respect for the ocean and its dangers, why not carry extra flares instead of old ones, the experts say not to trust them and they should be disposed of appropriately.
I'm awaiting a reply from Pains Wessex and Club Marine on the subject. regards Steve

[Mantaray]

simply if they are expired then you replace them with in date ones and ditch the old expired ones, end of arguement!

rather silly keeping out of date flares on a just in case basis

[Grand_Marlin]

Hmmm, I agree with you on all points Gelsec.

The storing (cool & dry) is the key to the lifespan.

I think the departments concerned need to research this and put something in writing re: out of date flares. Until it is in writing, then definitely, the Explosives act and regs will be used as the difinitive reference in court.
Something I have posted or something the Police commissioner or MSQ Senior Inspectors have decided over a phonecall will not matter in the slightest.

Just keep in mind, my post is a parallel to your post. Mine was to try and put and end to a long running debate, whether people could or should be booked for posessing out of date flares.

The issue you have raised is the fact that the Explosives act & regs, as administered by the Dept Mines and Energy, states that it is illegal to posess out of date flares.

Where our two posts meet, is the fact that MSQ & Police believe there is no harm in keeping the immediate out of date flares, and will not prosecute for this. And also that the Dept Mines & Energy don't see this as a major issue.
In essence, they are turning a blind eye to a legislative point (law) that they obviously believe should be changed. In doing so, they are actually turning a blind eye to the law that they are employed to enforce.

Your point, which is absolutely correct, especially if the s%^t hits the fan, deals with the fact that no matter what anybody says, implies, overlooks or does, the LAW states that it is illegal to posess out of date flares.

Until this is changed in the legislation (which may take years) then the current law stands.

The key point to answering this debate and encouraging legislative change will be - exactly how do the manufacturers define their use by date?

Is the expiry date designed to:
a) protect the "freshness" and "reliability" of the flares,
or
b) designed to protect against the immediate deterioration and possible self ignition of the flares?

and this raises the basic question.... do the manufacturers think that it is unsafe to keep flares beyond their use by date?

We will compare notes after we talk to the manufacturers.

(I like this post... most interesting)

Cheers,

Pete

[bidkev]

simply if they are expired then you replace them with in date ones and ditch the old expired ones, end of arguement!

rather silly keeping out of date flares on a just in case basis

It is? So if your first set of flares don't get sighted, then it's silly to have a back up set to give you another go?

kev

Minds, like parachutes, only function when they are open.

[Mantaray]

lots of if's and buts isn't there kingtin? do you fire the good ones first or the old ones? this is assuming you grabbed ALL the flares good or otherwise in the panic but then keeping bad flares with good flares is a no no isn't it? my luck i would use the older ones first, possibly blow me hand off then be completely stuffed! dunno is it really worth the risk as if you thought you'd need a backup set then why not have an in-date good backup set, if of course it was that important to you?

[sf17fisherman]

lots of if's and buts isn't there kingtin? do you fire the good ones first or the old ones? this is assuming you grabbed ALL the flares good or otherwise in the panic but then keeping bad flares with good flares is a no no isn't it? my luck i would use the older ones first, possibly blow me hand off then be completely stuffed! dunno is it really worth the risk as if you thought you'd need a backup set then why not have an in-date good backup set, if of course it was that important to you?

never had much to with explosives have ya mate
flares are a slow burning phos base so they would never exploded with a force to take a hand off
sure they can burn but you ditch it quickly in the water

as for keeping old and new in diffrent packets in the same grab bag well there is nothing wrong at all with doing that

IMHO i think it is a very smart move to keep a set of old one along with a set of new ones after when the mud hits the fans so to say can you have enoght flares to let off??

most people would have a brand new set of in date flares with a set of the newst out of date flares and to date i have never seen a flare be bugged after only 8 years
could be diffrent if you trying to use 20 year old ones as yes they could burn uncontalaby but still wouldn't explode ;)

p.s. mantaray i belive you could argue about two flys climbing the wall or the fact the the sky is blue and the grass is green ::)

[Grand_Marlin]

Experience again Mr Mantaray...

Flares will either work or not work... end of story.

They do not explode as you claim.

If you have ever been in the position that flares are necessary, you will find that quantity gives better peace of mind.

No one is stoping anybody from carrying two or more sets of in date flares.

We are debating whether it is safe to retain immediate out of date flares. The Senior MSQ Inspectors, Police Commissioner and Mines & Energy have stated that they dont have a problem with it at this stage, as long as there is also a set of in date flares on board.

Flares, especially parachute flares are not overly cheap... so the point being made, is - is it ok to keep the immediate out of date flares as a backup?

There will be opinions from the manufacturers offered in the near future.

Pete

[bidkev]

lots of if's and buts isn't there kingtin? do you fire the good ones first or the old ones? this is assuming you grabbed ALL the flares good or otherwise in the panic but then keeping bad flares with good flares is a no no isn't it? my luck i would use the older ones first, possibly blow me hand off then be completely stuffed! dunno is it really worth the risk as if you thought you'd need a backup set then why not have an in-date good backup set, if of course it was that important to you?

No "ifs and buts" Mantaray, other than what "if" the first set aren't seen. Does it matter which set they are? I've used "pyrotechnics" that are 7 yrs out of date, and never had one fail yet, so why not utilise them as a back up, or even a first source? If they fail, then it's quite easy to resort to the in date ones. "Out of date" does *not* mean that they are "bad" flares, simply that they are not as reliable once passed that date, and even though this is stated as so, they are dated with a good "margin for error" just as the sell by date on foodstuffs. The manufacturers simply cover their arse.

kev

Many folk know how to say nothing. Few know when.

[Mantaray]

well that makes me feel a lot better; now knowing that such an incident/accident situation will never ever occur.

[bidkev]

well that makes me feel a lot better;



Damn! ;D

kev

Most of our suspicions of others are aroused by our knowledge of ourselves.

[seatime]

So far I've found these,

http://www.mcmurdo.co.uk/Images/CMS_Images/MSDS%20Handsmoke%20Mk211.pdf

http://www.nmsc.gov.au/documents/nat_rec_saf_equip.pdf

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-dops_pr_newsroom-press-releases-release.htm?mcga_news_id=99&month=7&year=2002


- still looking and awaiting replies from AMSA, AusSAR, National Maritime Safety Commitee, NSW Maritime Authority, Pains Wessex, MSQ and Club Marine, I'd like to settle this. Steve

[seatime]

Hi,
#AMSA/AusSAR (Australian Search and Rescue) have replied saying "having expired flares onboard are a safety deficency (even if they are additional to minimum statutory requirements) that must be rectified before the ship can sail". This applies to all Australian and foreign vessels in Australian waters.
# #
Australian state authorities have yet to reply.
#
# #The only other place in the world I can find that advocates this practise is the US Coast Guard. Great navigators the yanks, they discontinued teaching celestial navigation in their maritime colleges a few years ago because electronic navigation made it obsolete! Forget about magnetic compasses too, they don't teach that either. If you can't plug into the bulkhead and turn it on, they can't use it.
#
# # So it looks like it's us and America against the world, will we now become a target of radical extremist environmental flare exhibiting religons (REEFER), I hope so.
# #Seriously, this must be resolved as there may be ramifications here that may only come to light in the event of a tragedy.
# Anyway that's probably enough from me, cheers
ps. by us I mean Qld, Steve

[seaeagle]

Where would you dispose of your out of date flares?

[MulletMan]

Direct from the mouthes of the Brisbane Water Police and Boating & Fisheries, they have no problem with old flares PROVIDING they are in good condition. The very worst that can happen to an old flare is that the firing cap may not operate properly due moisture etc. over the years. They cannot simply go off by mistake.
An interesting part in the legislation is that for anybody who carries safety gear ABOVE and BEYOND the regulations, then that equipment MUST be in the approved condition. So for arguement, if you chucked a 4 man Zodiac inflatable on your 4 metre tinny and it was service-expired, technically you could be booked as it is out of service. We carried additional Stormy Seas life jackets on a commercial rescue boat once where the lights weren't working and got tagged to get them fixed!

[seatime]

Qld Water Police, MSQ and Boating& Fisheries Patrol policy is at odds with just about every other maritime agency in Australia and the world.

The Material Safety Data Sheet for Pains Wessex Handsmoke Mk 2 clearly states " life expired products should be returned to the manufacturer, distributor, coastguard, police etc.

The precedent has been set in the UK with judges condeming the practice.

I myself worked for the Nav-Aids section Harbours and Marine, and let me tell you they don't keep them on their own boats. And neither does the Water Police (because I suspect it is an offence).

There is documented evidence of mishaps with deteriorating old flares, eg phosphorus burns.

How many actual lives have been saved by expired flares? and I mean you have exhausted every other means of distress and all you have left is expired flares, and these expired flares saved your life.

Flares are designed to be used when the searchers are in range to see them. That means you have already sent an alert by epirb, radio, dsc etc, and then as the searchers approach flares are fired to pinpoint your position.

What other old appliances can we keep onboard just in case. best regards

[bidkev]

# #Qld <snip

Flares are designed to be used when the searchers are in range to see them. That means you have already sent an alert by epirb, radio, dsc etc, and then as the searchers approach flares are fired to pinpoint your position.



Not relevant to Oz but I thought it may be of interest. When I left the UK 10 yrs ago, there was no statutory regulation to carry an epirb, or radio on non-commercial vessels. Consequently many UK fishing clubs made it a rule of membership that lifejackets, radios and flares were carried. Many non-commercial boaties who weren't club members, carried only life jackets and flares, as radios required a licence and they just couldn't be arsed attending the courses and the cost of epirbs was prohibitive. In the club of which I was a member (126 boats), all carried life jackets, flares and radios, but not one had epirb.

Most call outs to amateur boaties arose from the primary distress signal, which was flares. The sighting of flares were the major recognition of distress in the UK, as opposed to epirbs and radios.

kev

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

[seatime]

Kingtin, agreed, most callouts in Moreton Bay would be to flares as epirbs etc aren't required.

Just to fill you in on how this hair got up my a.... I sat in on a boat license training course as I am contemplating doing the licensing myself soon.
During the course they gave a "safety tip" - "keep your most recently expired flares onboard for added safety in an emergency".
This puzzled me, I hold state and national commercial tickets, I have over twenty years experience and I had never heard this advise given before. I knew from experience this is not done anywhere (didn't know about US coastguard, but doesn't surprise) and is against all international safety conventions that Australia is a signatory to.
I'm still flabbergasted at the MSQ and QPS line on this, it's an archaic practice disbanded many years ago by sensible thinking authorities worldwide. They realised that it wasn't good advise in the first place.
And yes I have been involved in rescues, 1991 - Indonesia - man overboard (I went in the water, saved one, one drowned [there were 2]) 1995 Bass Strait - lost S to H yachtsman (8 hours on the foc'sle, didn't find him). 1996 Guam - drifting longliner, nobody onboard, sitting low in the water, no survivors (that was a little unnerving). I've draw the grid patterns for searching, I've liased with SAR authorities and I have the qualifications to comment. As I said in an earlier post I also worked for Nav-Aids for 4 years in the early 80's.
I believe this is dangerous advise given by authorities who don't know how to follow their own procedures. There is further evidence of MSQ's ambiguous standards if anyone is interested.
I'm sure this advise was originally intended to assist cash strapped boaties, there can't be any other reason because if it had been properly thought through properly the idea would most likely have been abandonded.
Maybe MSQ and QPS think it is a good idea because the majority of distress calls are for Moreton Bay where flares are the minimum safety requirement. This would be a flawed argument
as there is much more evidence against keeping old flares.
I really think this "advise" came about when someone in a senior position in QLD gov't thought it was a good idea and the myth has been perpetrated since. They can't back down now as their necks are stuck so far out they are in danger of dislocating.
cheers

[Grand_Marlin]

The plot thickens...

I talked to RFD today. They said that in their opinion, the flares were quite ok for double their expiry date, so long as they were stored properly... and in their opinion properly meant dry.
The problem used to be that the older type flares were in a cardboard cylinder... moisture was their biggest enemy, causing them occasionally to self ignite.
The newer flares in the aluminium cylinders, RFD says are more than safe for 6 years shelf life. The 3 year shelf life given is to lessen the chances of a "dud" flare being in the pack, not that they are unsafe, so as spares, the give it the thumbs up.

BUT

The fact is, that in line with current Qld legislation, IT IS ILLEGAL TO POSESS OUT OF DATE FLARES.
So, if you are booked for it, there is no comeback - it doesnt mater if the Police Commissioner, MSQ or anyone has told us that it is ok to have immediate out of date flares, the fact is..... It is ILLEGAL.

Until the government goes through the motions of changing the Explosives Act and Regulations to say that it is ok to carry immediate out of date flares, then it is still ILLEGAL.

If a case regarding out of date flares ends up in court, any verbal recommendations we have been told by the Police Commissioner or MSQ is just heresay... the current legislation says, no out of date flares, and nothing can argue that point.

If say you killed a mate in some way associated with out of date flares, do you think MSQ Inspectors and the Police Commissioner are going to stand up in court and say "we told him it was ok?" - No way are they going to.... and even if they did, they are acting outside the law.

So people, as much as it is a cost saving, and that it is apparently safe to keep the newer flares longer.... It is still illegal.

Do with this info what you will... you still have that choice.

And thanks Steve for a great thread, I think we are all more educated for it

Cheers

Pete