Rumours and Facts - 2 stroke bans

[gif]

There are some discussions at the moment about introducing pollution controls on outboard motors.

I am writing a submission on this and need your help.

I keep coming across rumours that 2 strokes have been banned from certain areas. But it’s a little hard to separate the rumours from the facts.

Can anyone tell me of anywhere in Australia where some outboards are banned ( e.g. 2 strokes) and some are allowed?


Hard facts please guys! I have enough rumours that cannot be verified. Post here or email rather than PM please.

With thanks

Gary Fooks
g.fooks@uq.net.au

0412 111 573

[billfisher]

Some lakes used for drinking water have bans on all petrol powered motors. They allow electric motors. There is no distinction made between 2 stoke and 4 stroke motors.

[Kendall249]

I recall reading somewhere that conventional 2 strokes are going to be availble in Australia to a least 2015.

[gif]

thanks guys

again thats my problem " I read somewhere" I am not knocking you - not one bit. I want to hear these stoiries too ( where thee is smoke ...)

But what I especially need are the hard cold detailed facts - so I can put it in a proper arguement.

Hinze and Wivenhoe allow only electrics. any others?

Keep them coming !

Gary

[finga64]

Connelly at Warwick-stocking association members only, electric only, Sunday only
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 226

Lake MacDonald (six mile creek dam)
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 209

Baroon Pocket Dam
Electric on dingies, 10 boats at a time
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 212

Cooby Dam
electric or less only
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 219

Lake Clarendon
electric only
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 221

Clarrie Hall Dam
electric or less
reference Beacon to Beacon 2000: pge 229

Hope this helps a bit. Might be an idea to look at a new beacon to beacon though. This one maybe out dated.
Cheers Scott

[Kendall249]

These rumours have circulated for some time and are based on the many counties have signed up for the Kyoto protocol, which outlines steps for reducing greenhouse gasses through emmission control, amny countries have signed up (with australia and the united states being notable exceptions). Therefore outboards manufactures have had to develop there clean tech engines to still be able to sell to such countries. I read in trailer boat magazine in Qand A section that 2 stk enginse will be still sold in Australia until at least 2015 or until ther is someform of political u-turn occurs that changes things. The reason for banning combustion engines from some dams is the fact that all combustion engines have contamination emmisions, including 4stks, E-tec, etcs. Our countries relies on its its industry and therefore it is unlikly that Australia will conform to protocols that place vast restraits on large chunk of our economy.

In regards to the logic of banning combustion engines form bodies of water intended for drinking is not hard to see, when it is no different to flushing your motor in a flushing bag then drinking a cup of the water from the flushing bag.

[billfisher]

As far as I know the move to 4 strokes and high tech 2 strokes has nothing to do with the Kyoto protocol, but everything to do with Californian emmission regulations. As you said the US did not even sign up to Kyoto. California has some of the toughest environmental protection laws in the world. They are also one of the biggest markets in the world. The companies that develop motors to meet their standards want to recoup as much of the cost as possible. This is the only reason they are pushed here.

[Kendall249]

I beleive that they do it on their own accord. #California is a place of extremes usually due to political stunts. #I dont know if u have seen it, but if u buy some fishing reels u may notice #waring on the box that states " Warning this product contains a chemical known to the state of california to cause cancer and birth defectives and other reproductive harm", that came from a box for a shimano tss4. # Just remember that the crazy state of california elected a movie star as governor.

[PeterT]

Nothing to do with Kyoto. Two stroke oil has some special toxins that dissolve and build up in sediment. They are taken up by micro and macro orgs and hence to fish, moluscs etc, resulting in cancer and or chromosomal damage and reduced growth rates. Then we eat the fish, prawns etc.

The pollution impacts disproportionatly on shallow nursery areas because it tends to float and settle in shallows. They are biomagnifiers, that is, they build up in organisms' system the more they eat the animals down the food chain. More a problem in areas with large populations, hence more boats. But adverse impacts have been recorded with low levels of usage by 2 stroke motors.

The most worrying toxins are a class of organic compounds known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, or PAHs. http://oils.gpa.unep.org/facts/airpoll.htm#ships Benzene, and tolulene, known carcinogenics are also emitted. One scary statistic stated that one hour of use of a 70 horse power 2 stroke marine engine equaled 8,000 hours of emissions from a new car. "Four-stroke motors emit less than 4 g/Kwh (grams per kilowatt hour) of hydrocarbons, while two-stroke motors emit more than 150 g/Kwh. Even the latest fuel-injected two-stroke engines (developed for 1998) emit 10 times as many hydrocarbons as do four-stroke engines." http://www.wnrmag.com/supps/2002/aug02/onin.htm. One paper claims 2 stroke motors are the number 1 water pollutant in the US contibuting 1.1 billion pounds of hydrocarbon emission.

The argument that modern tech 2 strokes us less oil doesn't stand up because there are more boats so each is contributing to the problem, no matter how small each is contributing. Chesapeake Bay is accelerating phase out of 2 strokes. "In June, Maryland Department of Natural Resources Secretary Chuck Fox signed a memorandum of understanding with the National Marine Manufacturers Association, the Marine Retailers of American and the Marine Trade Association of Maryland to speed the transition by jointly promote the use of the cleaner, but slightly more costly, engines."http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=701.

Two stroke oil also reacts with chemicals used in fresh water purification to produce carcinogens. Two stoke engines are banned in some rivers in the US upstream of water purification plants. http://www.rbbi.com/desks/regs/ca2439/toxic.htm. Some lakes are mandated as 4 stroke only.

The US Oil in the sea report of 2002 states that 2 stroke oil contributes 85% of oil pollution in the US with an estimated 1.6 million gallons of oil entering US waters. #:o http://www.americanboating.org/how_oil_really_enters.asp. Interesting that this is published by a US boating association.

All they need do is find a biodegradable non-toxic form of 2 stroke oil and no problem. In Sweden some parks only allow use of two strokes if they use vegetable oil. http://www.linnaeus.net/veg_based_2stroke_oil.htm Maybe use your old chip oil. But then the oil companies won't be able to sell their product will they.

Greenie hysteria?

Which way do you think the trend is going?

Do a google search and you will find heaps on the issue but little in Oz.

[billfisher]

I can't see why they can't develope a biodegradable, non toxic two stroke oil. Vegetable is used as a lubricant in the food industry for obvious reasons. It actually has better lubricating properties to mineral oils as it tends to adhere to metal on a molecular level.

[whiteman]

I've heard rumours Kakadu has/will ban 2s but the current web site doesn't differentiate. Probably dealers creating mischief.

[dnej]

Gary, that gave you some great information.
Regards Davidm

[gif]

Thanks to you all

There is some great advice here.

The current Australian situation is this:

- only one lake has a 2 stroke restriction: #max 6hp to 2010 then no 2 strokes at all. # Despite pointing out in a 10 page letter that Etec is 2 stroke but clean they would not budge. #

We have pollution controls on new cars #- the Euro 3 standards started this year. # We have no standards at all on any non road use such as agricultural equipment and lawn mowers and outboards. #

They have decided to pick on small engines first – including outboards. #There is a committee of all State and Federal environmental departments that are working on all the non road motors and will eventually come up with a set of laws.

They meet with industry in an industry panel for the first time next Monday.

Reading through all the reports this is my personal and best guess of the outcomes. # No refunds if I got it wrong!:

- there will be no bans on old motors #- just the selling of some new ones. # And that will take about 2 years to commence.
- Carby 2 Strokes and EFI 2 strokes will be out #- the rest including DI 2 strokes like Etec will be in. # #Similar standards to Europe and USA ( CARB)

If you have any concersn or questions that you don’t want to ask here – feel free to call me or email

Gary Fooks
0412 111 573
g.fooks@uq.net.au #

[billfisher]

So we will be up for a small fortune if we have to replace our outboards in two years time. These etecs and 4 strokes are substantially dearer than the simple 2 strokes. Why can't they encourage a biodegradable 2 stroke oil?

[gif]

Billfisher - if vegetable oils was the solution ( and it sounds logical) if that was the solution we would have seen it in the writings overseas.

Its not just the oils - 2 strokes use twice as much fuel because they spit it out the exhaust - and into the water. So petrol also gets into the water.

I did this table below from EPA Data - I am pretty sure its right. I am not picking on nay brand here - just look at the different technologies and thero emissions levels. And this is on new modern motors.


Illustrated in the table below are US EPA data for five motors of identical size – 40hp.

Manufacturer ModelTechnology (g/kW-hr HC Nox HC+Nox CO
Tohatsu M40D2 2 stroke carburettor 152.34 0.61 152.95 379.74
Yamaha 40VETOL 2 stroke carburettor 169.959 1.515 167.474 329.669
Suzuki DF40 4 Stroke Fuel Injection 6.49 7.23 13.763 235.273
Honda BF40A 4 stroke carburettor 7.84 5.49 13.33 203.36
Evinrude E40DRLSO 2 stroke direct inj. 11.2 2.24 13.44 66.49

Source: US EPA March 2005

[billfisher]

Gary,

Peter T posted a couple of links regarding the use of vegetable oil in 2 stroke motors in Sweden. He also quoted a statement that high tec 2 strokes still emit oil so are unaceptable. This is at odds with the claims being made for the etec motors. They claim that they are cleaner than 4 strokes. They emit no oil and are the only engine to receive the EPA clean air award.

Also how much harm to petrol emmisions do? Doesn't the petrol just evaporate frm the surface?

[Bosunsmate]

Hi Gary,

NQ Water site states that the Paluma Dam does not allow anything other than electric.....I also know that the Crestbrook Dam down the Darling Downs/Oakey always was electric only. Not sure if you can even boat there anymore, may be too much mud and not enough water by now.

Regards
Graeme

[familyman]

Kendall the same state that elected a movie star as govenor did this before except their first effort made president,then had an aircraft carrier named after him.Sorry people just a little snippet of info :o
cheers jon










be afraid,be very afraid.....

[gif]

There is no answer to all this pollution issue because how can you say that one pollutant is “worse” than another?

That’s why the entire anti fishing lobby have a field day.

Ok – so the pollutants are hydrocarbons (fuel and oil), Nitrous Oxide (NO) Carbon Monoxide (CO) and Carbon dioxide (CO2)

Carby 2 strokes put out heaps of Hydrocarbon – like 10 times more.


Overall 2 strokes (incl Etec) put out more hydrocarbons.

4 strokes put out more Nitrous Oxide and more CO. How do you tell what is better or worse? Some judgement is made but its all compromise and deals.



And no it does not all evaporate. Some stays in the water for a long time and some gets into the Mud, then the plants then the little creatures and builds up in the bigger creatures. Some of the amounts are incredibly minute.

When anti fishing groups such as a certain Council wanted data they paid for scientist to do a study - and they chose the most overused and locked in lake they could find - Brown Lake on Stradbroke Island. And there they found pollutants in the mud.

Personal Bottom line: I choose a 4 stroke personally last time and I think Etec’s are great. I am looking for a new motor now but because I am involved in the politics of it all I am researching thoroughly, thinking carefully and I still can’t make up my mind!

Based on the facts that Hydrocarbons and NOxide are the most “important” emissions then based on the data and graph on my last post I would have to buy the Honda - but only just.


The good part is we now have great motors available in most brands. And the low polluting ones are also the ones that use less fuel, are quieter and don’t smell bad. I know they cost more, but if $ is an issue consider going down one size and getting a better motor. You don’t want to seriously under power a boat - but so what if you get there 3 minutes later?