storing a boat - motors tilted or legs down ?

[catchy_fishy]

I recently 'wrapped" my boat up for winter, at least for the next 5 months, sad day that was.

I've been thinking lots about how I've done it and wondered if anyone could give any advice on what I should do.

1. Should I disconnect the fuel lines and run her till she dies totally ?
2. Should the legs be stored (for L/T storage) down straight or tilted and locked up ?
3. They have been tilted for about 5 weeks now - if she won't start what should I be doing ?
4. Should I be greasing parts
5. I've disconnected the batteries, taken out all the bungs

Any other advice ??

Catchy Fishy

[impulse492f]

1. Should I disconnect the fuel lines and run her till she dies totally? YES as any fuel/left in the boils might contain water which will corrode
2. Should the legs be stored (for L/T storage) down straight or tilted and locked up ? DOWN as the oil lies correctly covering the internals
3. They have been tilted for about 5 weeks now - if she won't start what should I be doing ? Your motor should start after correctly priming, make sure your batteries charged, you could try a small amount of fuel/oil mix squirted into the pistons but must of the time the problem is flooding (my experience).
4. Should I be greasing parts YES, great time for maintenance and make sure you lude your steering as this might seize over winter.
5. I've disconnected the batteries, taken out all the bungs YES and make sure she’s covered.

6. After you have tilted the leg down remove the plugs and squirt some 2 stroke oil into the pistons and crank her over a couple of time, this will coat the piston walls to stop corrosion.

7. You should also change the gearbox oil as there might be water contamination. It should be changed before storage then after.

[catchy_fishy]

Thanks so much for the response.

Guess what i'm doing over easter - will start tomorrow.

Mike

[Camo]

I recently 'wrapped" my boat up for winter, at least for the next 5 months, sad day that was.

Five months!!! :o Makes me glad I live in Queensland. How do you stand it. I don't think I could go five months without fishing.

Camo

[MulletMan]

Just great eh!
Impulse492f nails every item spot on and spoils it for the rest of us!
No point in replying is there - bumma!

[Spaniard_King]

I only have one change, running dry does exactly that :o

you will remove most of the lubrication on the bearings and crank exposing them to corosion, personally I think draining the carbies and fuel system is a better option to running dry

Garry

[finga64]

Poor Catchy,
Mate, Looks like now is the time to visit QLD if you had nothing else on your plate. ;)
Don't forget to check the trailer bearings before your boat gets locked away.

[Darryl]

Agree with Gary too, dont run her dry, but definately drain the carbies as unleaded basically turns to rust inside the fuel bowl.

[Blackened]

G'day
I'll second the dont run dry comment. If you do you're subsequently leaving no lubrication or protection. For the purpose of storage, mercury has an aerosol spray thats designed for this purpose through their quicksilver range, It'd be on their website.
Dave

[impulse492f]

Well I'm basing my comments on running the motor dry from my Suzuki user manaul under "Storage Procedure"

....and i quote:


2. While the engine is idling, disconnect the fule line.

And here's the quote from the Suzuki web site on flashing.


Once you've got your boat out of the water you can flush out the engine. Attach a garden hose to your outboard's freshwater flushing port. Older engines may require the use of a flushing attachment. Turn on the water, start the engine, and the water pump will begin to flush out the system. Let your outboard run for a good 5-10 minutes to make certain you've flushed out the engine completely, then you can disconnect the fuel line. This will allow the engine to burn away any remaining fuel in the lines.

Here's the Suzuki Video link http://suzukimarine.com/faqs/episode08.html

[Blackened]

G'day
I'm basing my comments on a 2 stroke engine. Has catchy fishy got a set of 2 or 4 strokes?
Dave

[impulse492f]

G'day
I'm basing my comments on a 2 stroke engine. Has catchy fishy got a set of 2 or 4 strokes?
Dave


Yes so am I.

[Bugs]

Running a 2 stroke engine dry is an extremely bad practice and should not be condoned .

[finga64]

Uh oh, see what you've done now catchy ;)
He has Mariner 2 strokes.

[StevenM]

What the G O catchy fish... 5 months you are kidding....why??

[impulse492f]

Just been doing some internet research and found a lot of sites recommend "Frogging" your engine before storage.

You can buy frogging oil (found some Aussie sites on the net), which you spray into the air intakes while the motors idling which will eventually stall the motor (this coats the internals). You can then remove the plugs and spray more "frogging" oil into the cylinders while you crank the motor over.

My own thoughts are that this makes sense but running your motor dry won’t cause seizing as there will still be oil residue left internally after stall especially on the rod and main bearings. You then add oil directly into the cylinder which coats the walls and piston skirts which are the main area that would likely be affected by corrosion as this oil is burnt off during normal combustion.


Any other thoughts?

[billfisher]

I have heard that it can cause extra engine wear to run a two stroke dry of fuel in the case of premix motors. With some oil injected motors you can flood the engine with oil and have a job getting it started again.
Anyway there is no particular need to run it dry. If you think you are not going to use it for a while run with fuel containing a preserver. This will stop the fuel remaining in the carby and lines going off and causing problems.

[88fishframe]

billfisher is right - oil injected motors will keep pumping oil through when the fuel stops. No need to run them dry but draining the hose may be a good idea and make sure you use a tank of new fuel when the time comes to start her up again. Here's a quote from the yammie site regarding my 130B -

"Provided different types of oil are not mixed together, the oil injection system, which varies fuel/oil ratios from 50:1 at Wide Open Throttle down to 200:1 at Dead Slow Troll, is relatively trouble-free. And with the oil being injected at the reed valves, the carbies run straight petrol, eliminating the need to run the motor dry before extended periods of disuse. Research conducted recently by predominantly two-stroke dealers has found that running dry a two-stroke can lead to the piston rings scoring the cylinder walls." :D

[impulse492f]

Running dry options.

Option 1.

So it looks like if you run an oil injection motor "dry" it would coat the internals with oil (like fogging above) so no damage to the internals rings, bearings etc and this would also stop any corrosion.

Option 2.

But if you want to run an older non injected 2 stroke dry, you should use the fogging technic above. This will have the same outcome as option 1, no damage.

Summary

All you want to do is remove the fuel/water part of your fuel mix and not the oil which both of the options above achieve.

I have seen the outcome of storing an oil injected 2 stroke (my motor, previous owner) for a long period of time without running dry, carbie rebuild !! There was that much gum all through the carbies which DID fail them in the middle of Botany Bay last New Years Eve :'(

[billfisher]

Impulse,

I don't quite follow your "option 2" in your last post. As I understood the fogging technique you are not "running the motor dry" as the motor stalls due to the fogging oil.
Also I think you missed a couple of my points. Running an oil injected motor dry and so flooding it with oil can make it very difficult to start again. I think your fogging technique would be a better idea.
My other point was before a lay off you can run the motor on fuel with a fuel preserver/ conditioner. This will stop any gum formation or separation of oil in the carby.

[impulse492f]

Yes true billfisher, If you use the fogging technique you aren't running it dry and I haven't used a fuel conditioner so I can't offer an opinion.

Don't forget we are talking about "Winterising" not ever week. Its no harder starting a motor that has been stored for the winter saturated in "fogging" oil or injected oil (probably the same oil only the fogging is finer to allow it to spray from a can). All that is needed is new plugs (which you would install after storage anyway) and away you go.

Both my manual and the Suzuki website state (even during the normal flash between runs) to removed the fuel line and allow the motor to stall.

It's up to the individual but I think its better to follow your motor manufactures published instructions as its them that should know and warranty wont be an issue.

[billfisher]

Impulse492f,

I take your point that the Suzuki manual and website recommends running dry but I also noted that someone has pointed out that the Yamaha website says that the practice can cause extra engine wear. I don't think that Suzuki two strokes are fundamentally different to Yamahas. Some of these manufacturers aren't too concerned with long term wear. That why a lot of the smaller motors has a recommended premix ratio of 100:1 of fuel to oil when experience over the years has shown that a 50:1 is best for long engine life.

I like using the fuel preserver because the motor can be easily re-started. This is important with my auxillary motor which doesn't get a lot of use. I also run it on the flusher every 2 or 3 months.

[impulse492f]

Fare point billfisher, you don't want a hard to start auxiliary do you and the fuel preserver would be the way to go.

Its all down to finding out as much "good" information available and making a judgement call which is difficult if the different manufactures recommend different things.

In my case I haven't winterised a motor yet as I use it every weekend but when i do I'll do what ever i can to eliminator water contamination and stoping the rust as best i can even if that means drowning the motor in oil.

So far so good my little best has almost clocked up 100 hours of use in my care since Xmas and all is good so far. Now the next thing I'll have a go at is the impellor, but that’s another story.

Happy Easter

[catchy_fishy]

fantastic responses.....i always get a cheap thrill when I post something and get fair to decent responses, #good info here.

WHY 5 months? Thanks for the concern.

Getting to know Catchy Fishy (Mike)
I live inland. #7-9 hours to the nearest decent coastal fishing waters. #I am in Johannesburg and there is no sea here. #Most of my fishing holidays are in Mozambique where temperatures in Winter drop to about 24 degrees. Hardly a drop which is why i love it there and why I keep going back. #(Johanesburg on the other hand is 2deg min 14 deg max).

This year Catchy Fishy is to become a dad again. #We're adding to the Catchy Fishy Crew, in July/Aug. Due to the malaria threat, all holidays to Mozambique have been crossed off. Pregnant women (as if you get pregnant men), viz. my wife, are advised not to enter Malaria areas, during the period of pregnancy. #The known cure quenine can result in very serious complications if administered during pregnancy. - not worth the risk. So I lose out on the fishing holiday - having just bought the boat. Such is life - many more to come.

Secondly, and this is just bad luck - an infant should not enter a malaria area until they are +/- 15 kgs - up until then the medication - quenine #- can also result in fatalities. #15kgs = +/- 1year. #Its a no win situation.

So I'm going to the desert / bushveld instead. #Also I will be completing the certification for my skippers. #In between work, and winter, with these two excursions and the arrival of a new baby the dreaded 5 months will go by very quickly. (Oh yes and in September I am off on a work conference to Zambia, and will most definately be staying on to fish for Tiger Fish.)

More about the motors -- finga is right, he knows them already.

They are 2 stroke Mercs, (old ones - Yammie style) not injected, and I use a ratio of 50:1 for pre-mix. I use leaded petrol, not unleaded - any one with any thoughts on why I should use unleaded.

Frogging sounds the stuff.

Good news is that when I unwrapped the boat today, after 5 weeks of incorrect storage, I got the motors started even though they'd been tilted. #I flushed them for abou 2 minutes each (suburban area - Easter Sunday, etc not wanting to make too much noise).

What happened ?

1. Well when I let the motors down, water trickled out the bottom. (rain had got under the covers, through an opening that had already worked itself loose in a storm - and or I hadn't dried them off properly - either way, glad I checked)

2. I also found the offending water source that was causing my floor boards to rot. #I was having really bad dreams about one bung I had never opened because it was too tight - I didn't pursue it for fear of breaking the bung. #I eventually took the vice grips to it, and got it loose. #Stained, musty water came gushing out - yet another reason I am glad I de winterised her. 5 weeks damage is a lot better than 5 months.

3. I couldn't resist - I fitted my well oiled bait board, and my GPS

I am going to take her for a run tomorrow - on a small dam, the weather is forecast looks to be good - 26deg light NE wind, 30% chance of showers.
'
Cheers and thanks for the info


Mike

Ps Buying the boat and not being able to go to Mozambique is an exact repeat of what happened when I bought my Landy - 1 month after I got it - for use primarily in Mozambique, Sarah fell pregnant. - and I had to cancel two fishing trips. Not all her fault though, I had some PART to play.

[bushbeachboy]

G'day Mike,
Congrats on the new crewie mate. Got one myself 10 weeks ago and fishing has become very sporadic. But he'll only be a baby once, so I'm spending lots of time with him.
Cheers mate

[impulse492f]

catchy_fishy

Congrates on the new little one, I too have a 3, 11 & 14y/o nothing but fun, the 3y/o loves the boat but the other 2 aren't fussed.

I'm blown away that your from South Africa, I just assumed you were from Australia somewhere.

I hope we helped and don't forget the fresh water is the course of rot not salt water.

Happy boat storage and all the best to you, your wife and family.

[finga64]

Is there a problem in giving the engines a good dry run every few weeks???
Lubricate the internals, give some cycling to the battery etc etc.
Might save the troubles of "winterising" and it is a good chance of keeping an eye on everything else.
You could even tie a line to the dogs collar sit in the boat and give the reels a XXXX run at the same time. (that ad still cracks me up ;D)
Cheers Scott

[rajawolf]

More about the motors -- finga is right, he knows them already.

They are 2 stroke Mercs, (old ones - Yammie style) not injected, and I use a ratio of 50:1 for pre-mix. I use leaded petrol, not unleaded - any one with any thoughts on why I should use unleaded.



No need to use unleaded unless like here in Oz ...you cannot buy leaded. :)

[catchy_fishy]

Is there a problem in giving the engines a good dry run every few weeks???

Nope I suppose not. It will keep me happy and as for the reels I think it's a fine idea. #;D I have a dog that loves to chase any one of the four cats we have - I could put a clip on swivel to the cat's tag around the collar, and excite the dog into playing "catch" [smiley=whip.gif].

two birds with one stone - keeping the motors in trim, and getting that screeching reel sound. Sounds great.

But onto matters far more serious. #After my run today I may be in more trouble. #See the next post.

[catchy_fishy]

As mentioned I took the boat out today. Now the starboard engine won't start properly. I'm thinking impellor, fuel starvation or seized motor, damaged gear box

At first she went like a dream - the best she's ever gone. After the new prop she was like a different boat. (that another story about a seized prop)

The engine does fire, suggesting the ignition key is working, but it won't stay alive long enough for me to get any revs up, and the engine cuts.

Almost as if its flooded.

A few things happened today after the engines were running properly.

Embarrasing but here goes:
1. I forgot to add the oil - and only realised after an hour - I used about 10litres of fuel with no oil mix.
2.I'm not sure but I think the neutral lock on my controls has been removed as I can select reverse easily. #I throttled back suddenly and erroneously jammed the engines into reverse
3. I was able to start this engine in forward gear
4. I noticed a new small crack in my fuel line just at the connector
5. At one stage the tell tale wasn't pumping, and the engine was making a horrible whirring sound, for 5+ seconds after the key was switched off, almost like the start cord was loose under the cowl.
then for a while it pumped fine.

Now I'm really confused again ? I am not mechanical in the least , but am getting better. How do I minimise the potential issues and check for the obvious things.

1. I am sure I could check spark plugs - but how do you tell if they're shot, and if they need replacing how do you know what the correct gap should be ?
2. Fix the fuel line and re-prime with correct 2 stroke oil mix - easy enough
3.Check for worn dog on gears - how ?
4. Check for worn impellor - do I just remove the prop to get at the impellor - is it really that easy ?
5. How do I tell if I seized the motor ?

Any more help greatly appreciated.

Mike

[finga64]

Mate, talk about a jinked boat. :'(
The crack in the fuel line MAY be the problem with the motor running (here's hoping)
Could you smell fuel when the motor stopped??
The gearbox....drain the oil into a clean container and see if there is any metal in the oil. Then see what happens from there.
The impellor is easy. No need to remove the prop. I think I have a manual here that I can e-mail to you. But there are more important things to worry about at the moment.
What is the year model of your motors??
If the motor is seized you would not be able to turn the flywheel around when the spark plugs are pulled out.
You can't get hold of a compression tester can you??
Sorry to hear about the motor matey. You've had an extremely steep learning curve with your boat.

[catchy_fishy]

Scott

Thnaks for the quick response. I feel a bit like Mad Turck right now. >:( >:( >:(My learning curve is like an 85degree ladder leaned up on a wall. I assume this does not happen to everyone.

BUT better on a dam, than out at sea. At the moment this is what I have been repeating to myself for the last 6 hours to keep myself from going insane

Yes I smelt fuel, but I'm not exactly sure when the motor stopped - what does it mean that I smelled fuel?

Gearbox- am I looking for shavings of gears ? Seen that before on a car once. If so I know what I'm looking for, how do I drain the oil

Year model - I will have to check on the papers (mine are at the office (23:11 here now) so I can only get them in the morning.I'll redo the fuel line, and hose clamp tightly.

About turning the flywheel - if the sparkpulgs are in and the motor is seized will the flywheel still turn ?

I'll ask a few guys about a compression tester

Can I put a neutral lock back in if it was taken out by someone else and there are no parts, i.e is it just a wire connection, could a spring be used and a bolt /screw perhaps or is it a physical specified part that is required ?

Thanks
Mike

[catchy_fishy]

Just found the year of the motors - they are 1990's; Mariner, 40 HP

[finga64]

If you smell lots of fuel it could be flooding.

There is a screw on the bottom of the motor leg and should have something to the effect of oil filler or something similar written. There should also be a screw further up with oil level or something similar written. Undo both. Go out into the sun and look for anything shiney (metal filings) in the oil. Not always big chunks of metal come out.

The motor may be hard to turn by hand due to the compression. By taking the spark plugs out there shouldn't be any compression and should be fairly easy to turn if the gearbox is in neutral and the gearbox isn't seized.

I'll see if I can find the manual for the Yammi mercs and scan the gearbox section and e-mail it to your work address.

If not today I'll get it to you in the next couple of days. I'll have to get the cook to compress the files.
The neutral thingo is usually just a spring pushing a pin into a groove. Sometimes the spring breaks. It's in the gearbox.
You haven't got a serial number handy have you??

[finga64]

http://www.themarinedoctor.com/gearoilmain.htm
shows where the screws are for the gearbox oil #:)

and this chart is a bit of a guide to narrow down the fuel problems

[finga64]

The oil injection problem is a good reason to use premix.... no more problems.
Just have to remember to pre-mix though ;)