gilbo
21-04-2006, 01:39 PM
Hi all, been reading the various forums for awhile and probably would have posted earlier if it wasn't for the following tale of woe. I have owned tinnies for quite some time the most recent being a 17.5' stacer which was a great boat but my partner and daughter used to complain about how rough it got out in the bay in it so finally decided to buy something bigger and heavier that not only would handle some chop in the bay, but would be comfortable on overnight trips and able to go outside fishing on. After looking around for sometime we decided last november on a 25' bertram flybridge which looked like a nicely kept boat and the guy (well I think he was human) that sold it was very helpful and explained in detail all the work he had recently done on the boat. I did what I though was the right thing and got a marine survey on the boat and this all came back with a clean bill of health and was told buy the surveyor that in his opinion what the seller said he had done to the boat looked to have been done. So I felt pretty confident in buying it and did so.
This is when the fun started. First trip out, when at full operating temp, one engine wouldn't idle, another leg wouldn't engage or disengage without a lot of force, on the second trip out, after replacing coils, condensors, points etc the idling seemed a lot better but the gear was still hard to the point a cable snapped. Also had lots of trouble with it holding the trim. When in reverse it would want to pull the engine out of the water. Fixed the trim pump, replaced the broken cable, made some adjustments recommended by the seller ("because it all should be fine - I have had all this work done") and on the next trip it actually seemed to run ok, gears were still a little hard, but maybe I was just getting used to the handling of it. The trim still wouldn't hold and this is when I noticed the port engine was losing water and oil. The oil all seemed to be coming out the tappet cover.
Decided to bite the bullet and get a mechanic in to look at it for me with respect to the trim and ask about the oil. Due to not being able to easily tow the boat I used a small independant "mobile" mechanic and met him at the boat. At this stage was told the oil leak appear to be from the tappet cover and he would replace this. When asking about the trim, he started to look at the legs and then tell me how bad each one was (this after being assured that they were recently serviced and the port completely overhgauled 6 months ago). Ok - he knows more than me, told him some of the problems I had been having and was told they seemed pretty consistant with legs badly needing work. Ok so how much. 4500 ish I was quoted to rebuild the legs and replace a tappet cover gasket and a few other incidentals like radiator caps etc. Told him I was happy to go ahead, well happy not really the right word, but I would go ahead, but could he have a look over the mechanic of the boat and tell me what else I might need to do, as I didn't want to go and organise this money only to be told after the job was done that I needed to also do this and do that and he assured me at this stage that in his opinion only the legs were bad and it would seem like a new boat when he had finished with it. I asked him about the shifting when hot and he said all to do with the legs and you would be "able to change it with a feather" when he was finished with it. I told him while it was hard downstairs, it was impossible upstairs and again - no worries mate - be like a new boat by the time I am finished with it.
So I gave him the go ahead to fix these, at this point in time I would like to remind you (if you are still reading) that originally I called him out to look at the trim problems. Also at this stage he told me that the hydrafoils I had fitted were bad for the boat and I should remove them or risk cracking the gearbox housing. He even pointed out a crack he said was from it after running his screw driver down the casing. When asked wasn't that just a scratch from the screw driver he ummed and arrghs and said oh yes but they were bad for the boat and should be removed anyway. hey he know more than me and after being assured I wouldn't notice the difference I told him to remove them. Alarm bells should have started ringing now.
So after a week or so the work was complete and I asked for the payment, not a problem, I already had the bank cheque, but I did ask if we could take it for a run first. Oh before I forget when he rang me to tall me the job was finished he says "I have fixed your legs but you have some serious trouble with that port engine, you are probably going to need to rebuild it". Well I was dumbfounded after originally asking him first to tell me if there were any other major problems. It was at this stage I started to seriously doubt him as a mechanic. So anyway I asked him if we could take it for a run first and I could test out the work he had done and he could explain to me about all the other work I now needed to be done. Well - you would have thought I killed his only child the way he carried on and complained about how this was not the way he worked and not the done thing. Mate all I was asking qwas for 20 minutes of your time to take it for a run, on a 4500 job I didn't think I was asking alot.
I met him down the marina where he finishes some last minute adjustments to the cables and cut out switches and we put the boat in the water, I put it in reverse and the trim doesn't hold. Asked him why the trim wasn't fixed and was told "you didn't ask me to do that - you only hired me to fix the legs". No I got you out here to look at the trim, and was told the legs needed fixing, would have thought that maybe as well as fixing what you thought needed, you might have fixed what I asked as well. Problem 1 - the trim still doesn't work. Took it out of the marina and went upstairs and tried the gears. Still no good. "how come the gears upstairs dont work still" response "you didn't ask me to fix that - you only got me to fix the legs". Sorry but isn't the ability to change gears related to the legs and I specifically asked him to fix these. But anyway. Still an oil leak, and reponse "I replace the tappet cover gasket but your main problem is all this blowback - you really need to overhaul that engine", well fine but why change the tappet cover gasket when this other work needs doing- "because you asked me to". Blood pressure through the roof now. Basically by this point I just wanted to get him off my boat and out of my sight. So we go back to the marina, now engines and legs at operating temps, and the gears were still hard to change, they were a lot better but nowhere near "change with a feather". Fine you live and learn - I should have gotten a written quote, I should have done this, I should have asked for that. Probably I just shouldn't trust people as much and am learning that particularly in the marine world to "trust no-one". Anyway after being told by him that the compression is ok in the engine and he doesn't really know what the problem is but it need serious work, and I could feel free to talk him to court as he can "handle himself" and I was a difficult customer etc etc etc I decided to live with the job with the thought I have 2 (supposedly) rebuilt legs and should have a little less trouble boating now. I'll see how the engine goes with losing oil over the next trip or 2 and worry about the trim later as I have spent enough and I can still use the boat with out it, just not as well.
Anyway, very obvious first trip out without the hydrafoils the boat just didn't get up on the plance as quickly and seemed to chew a little more juice. The engine still lost oil and water, still couldn't use the trim, nor could I change gears upstairs. Really didn't want to talk to the mechanic again, but seeing as the hydrafoils were the only parts he didn't leave with my boat, I rang him and asked him to drop them back. I now wonder whether they weren't left with the boat because of the bertram 25 that he had just sold to a mate of his might not have had them on it. Still after the job he did on me, he could have bought a set.
After the next trip out and some bad sounds now also coming from the starboard engine, I decided enough was enough and I was going to get one of the bigger boat shops around to look at the boat and go over it for me. After initially asking worse case scenario what could I be looking for and being told between 3 and 6K per engine, I though ok, I dont need to eat, lets get them looked at. Well that was 5 weeks ago and I finally got the quote earlier this week. Both engines requiring a total rebuild at a cost of 14700. I really didn't know what to say, I was close to tears, this is now 20K more in total spent on the boat. I still dont know what to do.
Sorry to bore you all with such a long story, but I just have a few question to anyone in the know out there, and a few suggestions to any contemplating getting work done on a boat, or buying an older larger boat.
Boat set up
Bertram 25' sportsfisherman flybridge
year 1984
engines mecruiser 470 (170hp) x 2 approx 1300 hours on each
apha legs
Questions:
the hydrafoils - anyone had any problems with using them
trim - any ideas anyone - oh thats right was told by the first "mobile" mechanic that the trim was gone because one of the high pressure hoses was cracked, 100 dollars to replace, got that done, no difference.
legs - would you overhaul a leg and not change the gimble bearing if everything else was in such an apparently bad state.
engines - does this seem a reasonable price to completely rebuild.
engines - are they worth rebuilding
engines - was getting 20knots at 3200 rpm, what could I expect with the engines rebuilt.
Boat in general - is it worth spending the money on a boat of this type.
Recommendations:
Dont rely on a marine survey alone when buying an older boat.
This is when the fun started. First trip out, when at full operating temp, one engine wouldn't idle, another leg wouldn't engage or disengage without a lot of force, on the second trip out, after replacing coils, condensors, points etc the idling seemed a lot better but the gear was still hard to the point a cable snapped. Also had lots of trouble with it holding the trim. When in reverse it would want to pull the engine out of the water. Fixed the trim pump, replaced the broken cable, made some adjustments recommended by the seller ("because it all should be fine - I have had all this work done") and on the next trip it actually seemed to run ok, gears were still a little hard, but maybe I was just getting used to the handling of it. The trim still wouldn't hold and this is when I noticed the port engine was losing water and oil. The oil all seemed to be coming out the tappet cover.
Decided to bite the bullet and get a mechanic in to look at it for me with respect to the trim and ask about the oil. Due to not being able to easily tow the boat I used a small independant "mobile" mechanic and met him at the boat. At this stage was told the oil leak appear to be from the tappet cover and he would replace this. When asking about the trim, he started to look at the legs and then tell me how bad each one was (this after being assured that they were recently serviced and the port completely overhgauled 6 months ago). Ok - he knows more than me, told him some of the problems I had been having and was told they seemed pretty consistant with legs badly needing work. Ok so how much. 4500 ish I was quoted to rebuild the legs and replace a tappet cover gasket and a few other incidentals like radiator caps etc. Told him I was happy to go ahead, well happy not really the right word, but I would go ahead, but could he have a look over the mechanic of the boat and tell me what else I might need to do, as I didn't want to go and organise this money only to be told after the job was done that I needed to also do this and do that and he assured me at this stage that in his opinion only the legs were bad and it would seem like a new boat when he had finished with it. I asked him about the shifting when hot and he said all to do with the legs and you would be "able to change it with a feather" when he was finished with it. I told him while it was hard downstairs, it was impossible upstairs and again - no worries mate - be like a new boat by the time I am finished with it.
So I gave him the go ahead to fix these, at this point in time I would like to remind you (if you are still reading) that originally I called him out to look at the trim problems. Also at this stage he told me that the hydrafoils I had fitted were bad for the boat and I should remove them or risk cracking the gearbox housing. He even pointed out a crack he said was from it after running his screw driver down the casing. When asked wasn't that just a scratch from the screw driver he ummed and arrghs and said oh yes but they were bad for the boat and should be removed anyway. hey he know more than me and after being assured I wouldn't notice the difference I told him to remove them. Alarm bells should have started ringing now.
So after a week or so the work was complete and I asked for the payment, not a problem, I already had the bank cheque, but I did ask if we could take it for a run first. Oh before I forget when he rang me to tall me the job was finished he says "I have fixed your legs but you have some serious trouble with that port engine, you are probably going to need to rebuild it". Well I was dumbfounded after originally asking him first to tell me if there were any other major problems. It was at this stage I started to seriously doubt him as a mechanic. So anyway I asked him if we could take it for a run first and I could test out the work he had done and he could explain to me about all the other work I now needed to be done. Well - you would have thought I killed his only child the way he carried on and complained about how this was not the way he worked and not the done thing. Mate all I was asking qwas for 20 minutes of your time to take it for a run, on a 4500 job I didn't think I was asking alot.
I met him down the marina where he finishes some last minute adjustments to the cables and cut out switches and we put the boat in the water, I put it in reverse and the trim doesn't hold. Asked him why the trim wasn't fixed and was told "you didn't ask me to do that - you only hired me to fix the legs". No I got you out here to look at the trim, and was told the legs needed fixing, would have thought that maybe as well as fixing what you thought needed, you might have fixed what I asked as well. Problem 1 - the trim still doesn't work. Took it out of the marina and went upstairs and tried the gears. Still no good. "how come the gears upstairs dont work still" response "you didn't ask me to fix that - you only got me to fix the legs". Sorry but isn't the ability to change gears related to the legs and I specifically asked him to fix these. But anyway. Still an oil leak, and reponse "I replace the tappet cover gasket but your main problem is all this blowback - you really need to overhaul that engine", well fine but why change the tappet cover gasket when this other work needs doing- "because you asked me to". Blood pressure through the roof now. Basically by this point I just wanted to get him off my boat and out of my sight. So we go back to the marina, now engines and legs at operating temps, and the gears were still hard to change, they were a lot better but nowhere near "change with a feather". Fine you live and learn - I should have gotten a written quote, I should have done this, I should have asked for that. Probably I just shouldn't trust people as much and am learning that particularly in the marine world to "trust no-one". Anyway after being told by him that the compression is ok in the engine and he doesn't really know what the problem is but it need serious work, and I could feel free to talk him to court as he can "handle himself" and I was a difficult customer etc etc etc I decided to live with the job with the thought I have 2 (supposedly) rebuilt legs and should have a little less trouble boating now. I'll see how the engine goes with losing oil over the next trip or 2 and worry about the trim later as I have spent enough and I can still use the boat with out it, just not as well.
Anyway, very obvious first trip out without the hydrafoils the boat just didn't get up on the plance as quickly and seemed to chew a little more juice. The engine still lost oil and water, still couldn't use the trim, nor could I change gears upstairs. Really didn't want to talk to the mechanic again, but seeing as the hydrafoils were the only parts he didn't leave with my boat, I rang him and asked him to drop them back. I now wonder whether they weren't left with the boat because of the bertram 25 that he had just sold to a mate of his might not have had them on it. Still after the job he did on me, he could have bought a set.
After the next trip out and some bad sounds now also coming from the starboard engine, I decided enough was enough and I was going to get one of the bigger boat shops around to look at the boat and go over it for me. After initially asking worse case scenario what could I be looking for and being told between 3 and 6K per engine, I though ok, I dont need to eat, lets get them looked at. Well that was 5 weeks ago and I finally got the quote earlier this week. Both engines requiring a total rebuild at a cost of 14700. I really didn't know what to say, I was close to tears, this is now 20K more in total spent on the boat. I still dont know what to do.
Sorry to bore you all with such a long story, but I just have a few question to anyone in the know out there, and a few suggestions to any contemplating getting work done on a boat, or buying an older larger boat.
Boat set up
Bertram 25' sportsfisherman flybridge
year 1984
engines mecruiser 470 (170hp) x 2 approx 1300 hours on each
apha legs
Questions:
the hydrafoils - anyone had any problems with using them
trim - any ideas anyone - oh thats right was told by the first "mobile" mechanic that the trim was gone because one of the high pressure hoses was cracked, 100 dollars to replace, got that done, no difference.
legs - would you overhaul a leg and not change the gimble bearing if everything else was in such an apparently bad state.
engines - does this seem a reasonable price to completely rebuild.
engines - are they worth rebuilding
engines - was getting 20knots at 3200 rpm, what could I expect with the engines rebuilt.
Boat in general - is it worth spending the money on a boat of this type.
Recommendations:
Dont rely on a marine survey alone when buying an older boat.