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d-man
20-06-2006, 11:29 AM
I've been told that you shouldn't run fuel with ethanol in O/B motors. Anyone know why?

7dan7
20-06-2006, 12:37 PM
hi d-man

in the out board owners manual it states not to use gasoline with more than 10% ethanol . can damage motor . I would assume the reason has got to do with octane level and covering themselves for waranty. also ethanol attracts moisture.

cheers dan

gif
20-06-2006, 01:56 PM
Just like happened with the introduction of Unleaded there will be more rumours than facts floating around.

Australia is not the first country to get ethanol - so we wont be guinea pigs.

I have heard back from one manufacturer who basically said "no problems" but their engines are based on car engines.

anyway - treat "facts" with suspicion untl we get it from the horses mouth.

I am meeting with CEOs from Honda Suzuki Mercury Yamaha and BRP on the 19th July and will ask for an update

Gary


Ethanol in Fuel

A topic that has been brought to our attention lately is the addition of ethanol into petrol for Honda engines. All Honda engines - from cars to bikes to outboards to power equipment – all have the same warning in the owner’s manuals – MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL.
The reasons for this are many including:
Ethanol is an alcohol which attracts water. The water and alcohol mix settles to the bottom of the tank – just where the fuel pick-up is and is pulled into the engine first – not good for an engine designed to run on petrol. This is especially relevant with engines that are left sitting for some time and happen to get condensation in the fuel tank – a lot of our P/E, outboard and bikes may fall into this occasional use category.
The alcohol/water combination can also form chemical compounds that can attack alloys, causing a hole in the fuel tank which could result in a fuel leak and fire.
Alcohol can also affect sealing components such as o-rings or gaskets, which can swell or deteriorate causing blockages or leaks.
Oxygenation is also an issue as the ethanol acts as an extra oxygen source, causing an engine to run leaner than if it was only running on petrol. This is especially an issue in 2-stroke engines, where the ethanol can also act to wash down the cylinder walls, reducing lubrication.
Our recommendations are detailed in the individual owner’s manuals. Please consult the Owner’s Manual that came with your Honda product. They generally say:
Gasolines and Alcohol
If you decide to use a gasoline containing alcohol (gasohol) be sure it’s octane rating is at least as high as that recommended by Honda. There are two types of “gasohol”: one containing ethanol, and the other containing methanol.
Do not use gasohol that contains more than 10% ethanol. Do not use gasoline containing methanol (methyl or wood alcohol) that does not also contain cosolvents and corrosion inhibitors for methanol. Never use gasoline containing more than 5% methanol, even if it has cosolvents and corrosion inhibitors.
Note:
Fuel system damage or engine performance problems resulting from the use of fuels that contain alcohol is not covered under the warranty.
Honda cannot endorse the use of fuels containing methanol since the evidence of their suitability is as yet incomplete.
Before buying fuel from an unfamiliar station, try to find out if the fuel contains alcohol, if it does, confirm the type and percentage alcohol used.
If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms while using gasoline that contains alcohol, or one o that you think contains alcohol, switch to a gasoline that you know does not contain alcohol.

robo02
20-06-2006, 07:23 PM
HI d man

iI personally would give it a miss in my outboard . I got it by mistake one day 5 lt of mower fuel mixed with oil and used it in the mower and wipper snipper . left half a tank in the mower and the snipper next time i used the mower went to top it up and the dip stick reader of the mower had melted to a soft runny string and the wiper sniper hoses coming off the carby and fuel running out not a nice thing to happen could quite easily caught fire while using it drained it out and ran normal un leaded no problem after that . the power of both engines were down . back on unleaded no problem no cutting out and back to full power .
used in a boat i think its not worth the risk you want to get home
being a mechanic for 30 years i know that the better fuel quallity you have the best performance you are going to get out of your equipment.
alot of manufactures say that 10% ethinole blend is ok but with the way fuel is today there is noway the public knows what they are getting and whats in the bowsers, play it safe use a well know brand like shell, bp ,caltex etc i dont mind paying a bit more, at least i can say that it gives me confidence that im going to get home and not be stuck out there hope this helps stick with what you know .

Regards Rob

litenup
29-06-2006, 10:46 PM
I contacted Yamaha, and their comment was not to use ethanol in their 4 strokes. Cheers Pete

wayne_cook
30-06-2006, 04:43 PM
also don't spill any on boat paintwork and watch out for damage from overflow breather pipe onto paintwork

thesimmos
02-07-2006, 08:51 PM
Always used ethanol fuel never had a problem..
Fuel melting dip sticks sound interesting tho...

Here is something interesting.. on that comment about Yamaha.. I bet they sell the same motor in the USA and alot of fuel over there has massive amounts of ethanol in it.

I contacted Subaru about changing my car to LPG, they said it isnt recommended.. I went to the German Subaru site and they actually sell cars with it pre installed.. All Subarus come from same factory no difference.. Except some are left and some a right drive..

Sounds odd on both occasions.

Ethanol boosts octane.. Makes basic fuel like a premium.

If we where never told the fuel had ethanol in it.. (like has been for a number of years) would anyone care?

Who knows what else is in fuel anyways?

What makes premium fuel so much better and any different to ethanol blends with almost the same octane?

Each time I read something I feel a warm urine sensation in my pocket.. (pissing in my pocket)

Simmo

The_Walrus
02-07-2006, 10:26 PM
Strange, I spoke to Yamaha and was told 10% ethanol is OK in 4 strokes but don't store the fuel for long due to the ethanol having a fondness for water.

Testing petrol to see if there's ethanol is not difficult.

Luc

rough_shag
03-07-2006, 12:46 PM
I used a 10% blend mixed into a half full 130ltr tank and ran my Johnson 115 v4 on it.I never noticed any difference in performance at all unlike running my 3.4 ltr Toyota 4x4 on it which showed a marked improvement on standard unleaded.In the 4x4 I noticed much more positive power and could climb hills without changing down from 5th to 4th gear as with standard unleaded.
One guy at a fuel bowser servicing boaties told me to avoid it in the 2 stroke outboard because he reckoned a lot of fishos had been complaining of 'burnt out' spark plug electrodes.One thing that did happen to me when I had the half tank of ethanol blend was that the fuel sprayed out of the breathers and left a pink stain on the glasswork which I immediately washed with water and then polished out using fibreglass polish-it took a few attempts to remove the stain which you can still see albeit faintly.The breather cap was plastic and broke apart too.
My verdict.......car/4x4 YES positive benefits 2stroke outboard NO some negative risks involved.Cheers Jace.

PADDLES
03-07-2006, 12:58 PM
if an alcohol of some sort is the "enemy" in our outboard fuel, why is it that evinrude/johnson fuel conditioner is basically isopropyl alcohol????

i used to use this stuff in the tank of a 30hp 2cyl johnson motor i had. i was led to beleive that it worked the same way as a diesel conditioner and absorbed the water to make it burnable and more importantly it prevented any growths feeding on the water and starting in the fuel.

any comments from someone in the industry?

thesimmos
03-07-2006, 07:31 PM
bump