Bertram 25 - Another Chapter

[gilbo]

Well Hopefully the last chapter concerning repairs to the boat for awhile at least.

After 4 months and missing some great fishing weekends, finally I get the call that the boat is ready. I really dont know and try not to think about, why it has taken them so long when it was 4 weeks before Easter when I gave it to them and when asked how soon I would like to have it back I thought I was being generous in saying that I would like it as soon as possible, but had friends coming down for easter so by then would be ok. Was told at the time they weren't sure but would do their best. As it turns out it wasn't until 2 days after Easter that I actually even got a quote as to what they thought needed doing - now after my third course of heart medication I am now told it is ready. Makes sense I suppose - you have a huge job that is going to take a month or so, why not keep pushing it back and getting all these other smaller jobs done as they come in rather than turning away business. Hey you have the boat here and the work has started, lets just work on it when we have no other work to do. Was more or less told this in one of my phone conversations with them.

Anyway - all that is left if for them to water test it and for me to take it to its new home at Shorncliffe. Oh and for me to find a bank with minimal security and a few good escape routes.

So whats the first thing I do when hearing that I am getting it back again after all this time - that is to look on SeaBreeze and see what the weather is doing thsi weekend, and wouldn't you guess it - forcasting 25 knot winds.

Heres to getting back out and enjoying a few weekends on it, and if anyone wants to pass on any good sports to try around the nothern end of Moreton then feel free to let me know.

Cheers

Shane

[Lone_Wolf]

What was the problem with it Shane? Big jobs take time I guess. Big jobs mean big bills too. :-/ I hope you are fishing soon too!

[gilbo]

Well it started with one engine losing oil and water so put it in expecting the worst on that engine but hoping for the best. Then was told both engines had next to no compression in them and would both need to be rebuilt.

So that was the start, hold ups have been, 4 weeks initially to do the quote and to start the job, engines sent away, hold up on 1 exhaust valve, then a hold up on a water pump impeller, thena oil pressure sender, then a trim motor, then exhaust manifolds, then a heat exchanger, the list goes on until the most recent and hopefully last hold up, on wheel bearings for the trailer.

Appreciate these jobs take time, but it certainly hasn't been managed in any sort of efficient way either.

[Az]

I wish you all the best, have been following your updates and lets hope its the last of your troubles!

[Smailesy]

both motors owy

[Great_White]

Best of luck with the Berty, have been following your posts ;)

A least it looks like you did the work properly, you forget about the money you paid when yor out on the water fishing. ;D

Hope she serves you well :D

Peter. :)

[flotsom]

mate this not a suck eggs.... every body i have ever spoken with that has a 25 berty and 2 x 470 mercruisers has had to have big pockets, i hope that you have a clear run as i have seen many of these go bad as even when the engines are tip top internally the dressing is still the same.

[gilbo]

No - Suck eggs is probably a fair appraisal of the situation. I got done, through lack of knowledge and through a pr1ck of a guy who took me for all it was worth, but hey you live and learn. Just find it hard to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of anyone associated with the marine industry at the moment.

But that is my problem, and I am not bitter nor twisted about any of it ;)

Bring on a few relaxing weekends on the water now.

[BaysideMarine]

Gilbo,

Both motors with next to no compression????? How did they run prior to taking it in to be looked it? Were they obviously performing badly? or smoking like a chimney? or rattling their heads off?

Cheers,

Nicholas

[Smithy]

Ditto to flotsom. There should be a Bertie 25 forum for you guys. You see enough posts by owners to warrant one based on the threads on various bulletin boards. There is cool site for Bertie 31 owners in the US.

[23-sharkcat]

there is nothing wrong with the 470's.

try and get a outboard to get the same sort of fuel economy and power and will last 15 to 20 years with only basic maintanace required!!!

Gilbo how many hours did you get before you rebuilt them. I think it was just bad luck or bad advice you received.

Mine had 1350 hours before they were replaced and were over 20 years old.

The best thing about them is they are very very basic engines. My engines were not started in over 3 years and within 15 minutes I had them going. Try that on an outboard.

Look a 470 would cost about $3500 to rebuild as rebuild kits run for around $600US and thats with new pistons as well. I would not know what a big outboard would cost but I would not imagine it would be cheap.

I spoke to the air sea rescue guys on the weekend who had the same sharkcat as me with twin 225 on it and my cat still had a higher top speed and better fuel economy. go figure

[gilbo]

my 470s were just over 22 years old with around 1400 hours on each. I was told there was no compression basically in any of the cylinders.

As to how it ran - well at 3200rpm I would cruise at about 20 knots using about 40litres per engine per hour.

1 Engine, and the reason I ended up putting it in, was blowing out a lot of oil and losing water, the other engine did have a little rattle but I wasn't having to put any oil or water into it, so when I put it in I was hoping to get away with only 1 engine rebuild as the other did appear to recently have had some work done (at least that was what the guy that sold it to me told me).

Even with both in I was hoping for around the 5K per engine for the rebuild, when it has blown out to nearly double that - things start to get a bit worrying.

Anyway - youo can all read the post from what happened today.

NOT HAPPY JAN.

[23-sharkcat]

To me if you had very little compression you would have next to no power....

After reading your new post all I can say is good luck with the new problem, but when it is all done you will have a boat that with little maintance will run for years and years.

I can only say good things about the 470's as up to date I have had no troubles at all. I think your fuel figures are a little high but that could be put down to old engines and carbs that are not tuned right.

Did you have to replace the heat exchangers? If so you should ask for the old one back. I pulled my old ones apart and gave them a clean and they run without a hitch.

Hope to see you on the water soon..............

[finding_time]

23-Sharkcat

1350 hours before a rebuild seems bloody terrible to me !!! :-[ i dont know a lot about big mercruisers but that seems alot on the low side?

Ian

I know the diesels are getting between 5000 and 7000 hours

[23-sharkcat]

I suppose it does but when the boat sits in the water for a long time (moored) and is 20 something years old it does not seem that bad.

yes diesels and some big mercruiser will last a lot longer than that but I bet any money they clock those hours up in a much shorter timeframe....

Dont see to many redband mecurys or even bluebands still running strong at that age.

1350 hours would equate to about 450 fishing trips to the reefs off cape moreton.

[finding_time]

Again i state that i don't know that much about mercruisers but it does seem very poor for a big block engine! I know of a few of the later 4 strokes that have already done almost 3000 hours. I know i do between 250 and 300 a year.


Ian


I'm suprised that a fishing trip to Cape Moreton only needs 3 engine hours return! :o

[23-sharkcat]

It cruises at 55klm's per hour so 3 hours would be about 160klms or so.

Just about all engines will get good long hours out of them but really only if they do them in a short amout of time. So in you case it would only take 4-5 years. I would like to see that 4 stroke engine last 20 years with salt water running though it. Good thing about the 470 and most inboards are they are just like car engines and are coolant cooled.

[23-sharkcat]

Ian,
do you realise that the 470 is a 4cyl alloy block engine that produces 170hp. it has a capacity of 3.7 litres and runs the same head as the 460 big block ford. Essentially it is half the 460cui ford and was the only engine that Mercruiser ever built themselves as all the other engines either cam from ford or GM.

they did make the same engine with 190hp by bolting a 4 barrel quadrajet carb to a 4 barrel manifold. It was either called the 490 or the 190.

anyone can correct me if I am wrong

[finding_time]

No i didn't know that 23-sharkcat! As i have repeatedly stated i dont know much about mercruises , but i do know that i would be bitterly disapointed with only getting 1350 hours out of any motor i own! ;)

Ian

[23-sharkcat]

I thing the whole thing about 1350 hours is that it took 25 years of so to get there

[BaysideMarine]

Your right there Sharkcat.

That "family" of engines was 470/485/488 and also a 190 and then they went back to calling them 165's in the late 80's just before they dropped them and went with the present day 135's.

Shame they dropped the 470 series. One of the very best engines in the MerCruiser family. Reliable, powerful yet economical.

Cheers

[23-sharkcat]

Bayside marine,
does 1350 hour over 20-25 years sound that bad?

[BaysideMarine]

That sounds fine to me. Of course if it had more regular use it would probably get quite a few more hours life, but who could complain about 20-25 years on a pair of engines??????

Who has their vehicle after 20-25 years? How many components would have been changed in that period? And perhaps most importantly, vehicles do not operate in the harsh marine environment. I often say that saltwater is the next, most corrosive substance to acid.....

People also need to realise that bigger boats are naturally heavier and therefore place higher demand on the engines. How often in a vehicle do you drive for long periods at 3500-4000rpm??? Never.. Boats have to do it all the time.

Cheers

[gilbo]

Well had a week away with work now so haven't been overly missing the boat. Well past the missing stage now as it has been that long, bu the latest is that the worng bearing were supplied and fitted to the crank shaft and this was what was causing the knocking noise we were hearing once warm. They are now worried that the wrong bearing might have been supplied in the other engine as well so both have come back out of the boat and sent to the engine reconditioner for checking. Have been promised they are going back in next week now bot not really holding my breath. Just a little relieved it was related to work recently done and not attributed to another new problem.

So fingers crossed for next week, it is pretty bad when river fire is over a month away and you are worried about sending your old man to get you a permit because you are not sure if you will have a boat or not. Got the permit, all I need now is the boat. Anyone else heading up the river for the show?

Cheers

Shane

[23-sharkcat]

I would be a bit concered about the engine build experience of whoever is doing the rebuild. This should have been picked up on when the crank was put back in. If is was under size the crank would have been spinning quite freely.

Have not thought about riverfire but it sounds good. How much for the permits? and where does it let you moor to watch to show?

Darren

[blaze]

my question is
how can any one put a wrong size bearing in a engine.
the info is on the bearing back, oversize, standard etc
the crank pin is easily measured with a micromitor and bearing supplied to suit.
the final check while doing the assemble is to use "plasti gauge" to measure the clearance on the crankpin and bearing.
It would worry me that the engines have been rebuilt by INCOMPETENT DICKHEADS.
what extra damage has been done by running and oversized bearing , I would think that the bigend journal will now be slightly elongated (from the hammering), not just a matter of changing bearings. At the very least I would be demanding new conrods.
sorry to be the bearer of bad news gibbo, but this really sucks, I would be demanding EXTRA warranty,
cheers
blaze

[BaysideMarine]

Hmmmmm.... that is definitely not cool....

Hope the rest of the work is ok.

I smell a consumer affairs issue looming..

[gilbo]

Bugger - was starting to feel good about getting the boat back again. They told me the bearings were packaged in the size they were expecting. How do I check (if I even can) about any other damage that might have been caused or any possible problems it might cause down the track.

As for riverfire Sharkcat, there are 3 viewing areas they allow you to take your boat into, but you must get a permit and be flying one of their flags to be allowed in. The permists were available on Wednesday morning and not sure if there would be any left. Never watched it from a boat but had been hanging out since buying this one to do so - Now I am sick in the guts again.

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Az]

was it assembled by them? The wrong sized bearings could have caused more damage.. I would want someone independant to check their work or at least know what other steps they plan on taking other than replacing bearings

[DALEPRICE]

best of luck,
sounds like your havin a bugga of
a time with this mob.
cheers dale

some good points made by blaze !

[blaze]

Hi Gilbo
2 of things I would demand
1 replace all big end journal bolts, they are designed to take a load not a hammerring
2 they supply all measurements of bigend journals to asatain that they are within specs (repco or simular could supply you with specks
mate, I would scream blue bloody murder if it was my boat motor
I feel for you
cheers
blaze
ps
on both engines

[BaysideMarine]

Gilbo, I think the easiest and least stress way to handle the situation is to sit down with the principal of the business, outline to him your concerns for the quality of the workmanship, accepting that people are human and can make mistakes (that way you are showing that you are reasonable/understanding to a point) and then brokering a deal whereby you receive a satisfactory extension to the warranty.

This is the best outcome I believe as the warranty binds the dealer (as long as he honors it......) for the set period and having it doubled or significantly extended holds more real value than ranting and raving, or demanding free stuff etc etc.

I think if you go along a path of wanting independent checking of their work then things will start to become very messy with a lot of stress, drama and heartache.

Why not pop in when the engines are in pieces or send a mate who is mechanical if you are not to have a look at the stripped engines and you/he can see if there are new pistons etc etc, for your own piece of mind.

Cheers and one way or the other it will be resolved in the end and I trust it will be to your pleasing. I'm glad I'm not the dealer although I have never had this type of situation come back at me...... And if I was the dealer I would be falling over myself to put things right.

Did they give you 12 months warranty on the rebuilds?

Nicholas

[gilbo]

The warranty they were offering was 12 months on parts and 3 months on Labour, which I found a bit strange. If one of the parts failed within 12 months does this mean that I will have to pay for labout to have a fualty part replaced.

I am a pretty reasonably person, guess I would have to be to put up with what I have over the last 4 or 5 months and dont want to bring in independant people as such. The problem I think is the dealership didn't actually so the rebuild of the engines and sub contracted this job out. While I haven't found the workshop manager of the dealership particularly helpful, I have found one of the mechanics that has been doing the refits very helpful so I might give him a call on Monay with the concerns that have been raised here. Am really not feeling good about this. Will let you know what happens.

Cheers

Shane

[BaysideMarine]

That approach may prove useful although the mechanic wont be making the decisions so it could be a bit like trying to wag the dog by the tail...

Still, its worth a crack.

The warranty they have offered is probably consistent with most sizeable dealers. Yes, you are correct that if a part fails in 6 months the part will be replaced for free but the labour will be billed. I guess in effect what you have is a 3 month warranty (from a dealers perspective) because the parts warranty will actually be covered by the manufacturer/supplier of the parts so they wear the cost of component failure.

Its pretty much an industry standard warranty although there are some big players like Golden Seal Marine here in Melbourne who give 12 months FULL warranty. I believe that is the way to go because if you trust your work then warranty is no problem.

However, on an outboard rebuild I give 3 months full warranty (electrical excluded). I would happily give 12 months (electrical excluded) because I trust my work....

But things can still go wrong that are outside of your work and unfortunately with all the "bias that suits the circumstances" current affairs programs inaccurately reporting things in order to sell airtime advertising it does any industry no good.

Pre the boating game I was an investigator for Workcover Victoria and the Transport Accident Commission (Victoria's compulsory third party insurer) and I got sick of the current affairs programs (the tabloid shows) that every 6 months ran a "those dirty investigators picking on poor soles" episode and then 6 months later ran a "those dirty welfare/worcover/TAC/ etc cheats" episode...

Forget what you see in media program beatups because they are only seeking space to further their network and thats the cold facts.... Too many Australians believe that because they see it on tv then it MUST be true........ how so incredibly false......

Look at a nationwide hardware chain for example. They say that if you find a cheaper price elsewhere they'll beat it by 10%. That is such a fantastic marketting ploy! That no longer means they need to be the cheapest at all. In fact they can charge whatever they like because most people will believe the tv advertising..... For those anal few who price hunt bigtime sure they will get a 10% discount but that means nothing when the 98% majority don't question the supposedly "truthful" advertising.

Anyway, enough from me,

Cheers

[BaysideMarine]

Any updates to the Berty story?? and hey!! my username has been edited..... So much for freedom of speech........

[eimeo]

hope it all works out well - the bertram is a fantastic boat-i am sure it will all be worth the hassles in the end

good luck

dave

[ahoj]

Secind opinion was neede on the compression testing gear.... I don't belive it

Ahoj

[gilbo]

Well was going to post a new message this afternoon but will reply in here.

After 4 and a half months, 18,500 dollars, engines in and out of hte boat at least twice, unknown fustration and constantly being treated like an idiot, which I well could be, I finally got the boat back on Friday. Picked it up Friday afternoon and brought it from Scarborough to its new home at Shorncliffe.

You know how you wait so long, pay so much, and probably have unreal expectations, Well I did. Thought after spending all this money, the fuel economy might be better, the noise suppression I was told would work a treat might quieten things down, the constant problems with trim might finally be resolved, engine guages might be reliable, I could go on but I refuse to let it get to me anymore and I would rather concentrate on some good points.

The engines both sound really sweet, and it certainly gets up on the plane and has more power than it had before. No difference in cruising speed or fuel economy at it which I was hoping for. Was a nice run over on friday afternoon getting to Shorncliffe just before sunset, at high tide and with the wind all but died down. After nearly 5 months without it, I really didn't want to pull it out of the water, felt like just putting in some fishing gear and heading out to Mud for the night.

All in All I am happy I have the boat back and the mechanical side of things will at least (should at least) be reliable. There is still a bit I need to do with it, mainly on the electrical side, but now cant wait to get out in it. Apart from the problems along the way, and we can all appreciate mistakes happen, wrong bearing are inserted etc, the really disappointing thing about it all was the complete lack of customer service shown by this dealership. Even when they acknowledged there was a problem with bearings, it still took 3 weeks to rectify. Having since found out they sent one engine at a time over and waited for the second to come back before putting the first back in the boat. Really makes me wonder about the management abilities of some people.

Typical of timing, I am out of town for the next 2 weeks so am hoping for some good weather the weekend after and a chance for a Moreton run. So if you see a 25 Berty out, currently called "Billy J" but name soon to be changed, come over and say Hi.

On a side note, after taking all the clears off it when I put it in to the dealership, I now find that due to the length of time they have sat they have become creased and are going to split. Anyone know whether these can be repaired and if so by whom.

Cheers

Shane

[BaysideMarine]

Wow,

Thats a sad tale mate. I like their pricing though....... I couldn't see myself even approaching $10,000 for a job like that, I really couldn't.... Although I am thinking mainly 2 engine rebuilds. I don't know what other works were carried out.

So what outstanding electrical issues are there? I have been through most systems and every orifice onboard a Bertram 25 and have a major refit pending for a 25.
I'm sure we can work out the other issues.

Cheers and hows the engine temps and oil pressures now? Oil pressures should be between 60-80 when on th ego for such fresh engines and your temps should sit about 1/4 guage.

[Angla]

I hope you get some fine weather on your return.

Also might suggest to let the clears warm up before putting them back on so that they may soften.
The sun is probably not all that good but maybe its wise to run some warm to hot water on them to give them back some elasticity. Maybe you could try it on one first.

Good luck with Billy J now

Angla