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View Full Version : Service Bandits !!



horizon
15-09-2006, 12:40 PM
Why is that we have to pay through the nose for the most basic of services? Point in question- recently my new 4 stroke outboard was in need of its 20hr service, to I guess keep the warranty current. Well, after picking up the boat and being extorted $340.00 for the privilege I started to wonder how they were able to spend over 3 hours (Labour charge was $280.00) on changing the oil and filter, splash a bit of grease around and spend 10 minutes ticking the boxes of all the other items in the log book that were overlooked. We all must be in the wrong business. Thinking that perhaps I may have been taken for a ride, I made a few calls to some of the other bushrangers in the outboard service business only to find that this seems to be the going rate, give or take a little. In other words they can charge like wounded bulls for there aren't too many available options.

How is that I can take a 6 cylinder Falcon to the most expensive Ford Dealer in Brisbane and have the same type of service, including car wash and tyre paint and still have change left over from $230.00?
The boat dealers and some may attempt to justify this extortion given they believe that there is something more technical about working on an outboard versus a modern car however it would be interesting to see any points raised in defence of this banditry.

I would be interested in hearing any good reports of log book servicing done at a reasonable rate and keeping warranty intact and where this work was done as I would prefer to avoid a second mortgage on the house to be able to be fund the next more involved service at 100 hours. Nothing would make me happier than to support an operator who understands service and is willing to accept repeat business and be paid fairly for his time, costs and margin rather than putting money into operations that view log book servicing as their right to extract as much as they can, under their charade of being trustworthy.

I don't wish to name the business that carried out this service as no laws were broken and they were only joining their industry peers on the 'gravy train'.

I am almost embarrassed to admit that I paid this much for so little.

Cheers.....

PADDLES
15-09-2006, 01:05 PM
i know very little about 4s outboards but did they have to adjust valve clearances at all? that would be a bit of messing around if they had to do it. other than that though there's very little difference between 4s & 2s other than crank case oil and a filter. i get my 135 carby 2s serviced for $250 plus parts (impeller if required, gear oil is included in the $250) and old mate comes out to my house to do it. hope that's a yardstick for you.
by the way my mate with a 200 efi 4s uses same mechanic as we do and his service is about same price as you paid. hard to stomach isn't it, but that's the going rate. :'(

horizon
15-09-2006, 01:30 PM
Thanks Paddles,

No mention of valve clearances in the log book for the 20hr service so I imagine that this was not done.

banshee
15-09-2006, 02:01 PM
Don't know,but I often wonder how you can buy a whole four cylinder car with a bigger motor for less than some outboards.

Homer_Jay
15-09-2006, 02:15 PM
I totaly agree. I think its the biggest con going this marine industry.

You just have to compare the costs from the marine industry to the automotive industry. Its well known there are some shonks in the auto industry but these guys have nothing on the marine guys and the stuff they get away with.

I can go buy a 4 cyl toyoa corrola, a top car thats not $H%T quality either for the same price as a large 4 stroke outboard. Wheres the fairness in that. Someone is making a killing there somewhere.

How hard can it be to service a 4 stroke outboard. keep in mind a 4 stroke is based on the same principal as a car.

My opinion is that because its a boat everyone thinks well... they must have heaps of money to have a boat so they willl pay it. I even have friends who think i must be well off cause i own a boat but its only because i put everything into it and give up other stuff in life that they are not prepared to.

Makes me think that if someone comes along and gives good service and value for money then that is the only way it will force the others to lift their game.

horizon
15-09-2006, 03:01 PM
What ticks me off more than anything is the fact that the boat was delivered for the service with me knowing full well that I was likely to get ripped however there was a part of me hoping that this operation may be different. That this time I was going to have explained to me what was done, what they found, what they changed, what they recommend and just generally a little bit of feedback to make me feel good about parting with the cash and therefore willing me to return later for future services. Instead I was given the standard , " She's out the back mate, don't know what was done as the mechanic has gone home." No customer feel-good at all.

Its funny how this boat industry is all about sales and glossy shows, but yet when it comes down to a little bit of customer service they would have no idea, yet treat you like an idiot as they know full well that there is safety in numbers and providing that their mates down the road use the same approach they have nothing to worry about.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, there are times when an EMPLOYEE of one of these establishments goes far and beyond and delivers some exceptional customer service. It would however be nice to be able to find somewhere that can deliver this type of service as part of their goals each and everyday.... it would be a welcome surprise.

abitfishy
15-09-2006, 03:28 PM
I would have thought supply and demand for the service plays a part too - a Ford dealership may be cheaper to service a falcon for instance, but there are a lot more car mechanics than boat mechanics, and also the majority of car mechanics I've ever dealt with are usually booked out days in advance, all year round - can't see boat mechanics getting the same amount of business - hence service prices are more.

murf
15-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Hello Horizon

I agree its a lot of money for a service.

I have a 4yo 60 4st merc so waranty is of no consern, luky for me in a way.

i love doing my own maintenance for a variety of reasons.

did an oil / filter change the other day and its the easyiest motor i have ever changed the oil in :) (currently have 15 internal combustion engines on farm)

i think BM was hinting at doing DVDs on servicing???

i would love to get all the do's and don'ts on out board servicing to make sure my motor gets nothing but the best treatment.

i dont have any service info for my motor and am looking for things like the log book check list and a owners handbook or even a service manual.

i keep getting little bits of great info from this forum :) :) :) thanks folks

Cheers Murf

stevedemon
15-09-2006, 03:45 PM
Hi all
try these guy's top mechanic's and you don't need a gold check book have been dealing with them for 11yrs now and my motor has never missed a beat since dealing with them and there prices are on the level

Southside Outboard Wreckers and Mechanical Service at Bethania Sth near Beenleigh Contact Ph No 3805-8595 talk to Mark or Shane

no need to take out a second mortgage and they are consistent with all services and yes i think from memory they do log book services for most makes a models

hope this helps guy's

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

horizon
15-09-2006, 03:49 PM
I am a lot like you Murf, more than capable of changing the oil, gearcase oil, plugs and most else. Unfortunately mine is still only new and under warranty so in need of the services of a 'recognised agent', but as soon as the 3years are up then I am happy to be on my own and use a repairer only for those things outside of my scope, at least doing it yourself you know what is being done as opposed to what is being ticked off a checklist.

Abitfishy, I can agree with the supply and demand point that you make however I would imagine that if an operation came to light that treated customers with a little bit of respect and delivered what they charge for then they would have enough business to keep them going, word of mouth about their service would ensure that they remain busy. There seems to be a lot of unhappy boaties out there who would jump at the chance of a reliable business and wouldn't mind paying for a better level of service than what is currently on offer.

pegasus
15-09-2006, 04:09 PM
Hi,

Mention the word marine an everything seems to go up. I have a suzi 50 4 s- I have found a great difference in prices by ringing around- I was amazed,some charging a $100 plus for the same service- yep - all acreditted service agents.

An credit where due-mine goes to Col ( Fisher Boats) at Bribie- top genunie service on time and down to earth advice an best on price than those contacted in Brisy.I have to run up to bribie- but am on the north side- normally take the lad up and we make occasion to check the place out to keep ourselves occupied till pick up.

snappa
15-09-2006, 05:18 PM
does col service outboards ....... any brand ???

Black_Rat
15-09-2006, 05:26 PM
Anything to do with "Marine" and you seem to pay a premium for it #>:(

Mind you it recently cost me close to a grand for a 40,000k dealer service on the Navra recently #[smiley=bigcry.gif]

Homer_Jay
15-09-2006, 05:36 PM
Black Rat, $1000 for a 40,000 service it must be diesel for that price. Does seem steep for that service, even through a dealer. Was there anything out of the ordinary they had to do?

Black_Rat
15-09-2006, 06:05 PM
Yeah mate a Turbo Diesel

I asked for a tyre rotate and balance and asked for a #new set of wipers in addition to the standard service. I normally do ask for a ballpark cost when I book a service in but didn't this time. "Your F*&^$g kidding" I said when he told me the cost #;D should have seen the look on the sales rep's face.

Luckily I'd recieved #my Tax return to pay for it !! #::) #;D

ahoj
15-09-2006, 06:51 PM
Take your Outboard for service same time as your car and outline if anything is wrong with your outboard 4 Strokes you can change the oil and oil filters yourself fuel filter also waterpump --- check
Emptying the leg and fill with new gear oil.. If the motor is running sweetly do not bother to adjust any timing settings ----and what else is there?

with 2 strokes-- Make sure you have good and correct oil mixture your leg full of oil water pump fuctioning and .. this service is easy and don't take too uch time just make sure you have the best recommended oils and occasionally press a bit of grease into 1 or all 3 nipples.. Learn about your motor If starter and electrical gear is not functioning good auto electrician will do a better job then marine specialist ( I like that name)... Is there no such a thing as first free service? The services are far too frequent and unnecessary why would one have to change spark plugs every 200 hours? I am quite positive that the oldies here are doing their own service and only in emergency will they go for help... Nothing more i can say but make a comarison --do you take your lawn mover for 200$ service every 3 month? I don't think so.. why does your outboard need a 85$ per hour clean?

Cheers
Ahoj

ahoj
15-09-2006, 07:28 PM
If its not broken don't fix it

ahoj

horizon
15-09-2006, 07:30 PM
Ahoj, your points are very valid and true, particularly the comparison to the lawn mower.
I guess that people (i know i am) are concerned about warranty issues if it ever came down to having the misfortune of having their new motor die in a big way, then the manufacturer stating that your warranty was voided because you missed a service. So I guess that you follow the log book for the time of the warranty then let commonsense prevail.
If there is any other way to ensure that your warranty is valid if you perform your own services then it would be interesting to know.

charleville
15-09-2006, 07:56 PM
Don't know,but I often wonder how you can buy a whole four cylinder car with a bigger motor for less than some outboards.

Hmmm. I am not a mechanic but I did buy a factory workshop manual for my 60HP 4 stroke non-EFI Merc when I bought it five years ago and I do notice a few differences between marine engines and car engines.

For example my Merc appears to have four carburettors whereas the last carburettored car that I had only had one.

I guess that when you need to build a motor to handle hostile marine environments with electrolysis protection etc and failsafe motort ignition etc, that things do cost a bit more because of redundancy and protection mechanisms.

ahoj
15-09-2006, 11:17 PM
I know what i will do just do ---my own service and not declare the hours No motor deserves a service every 2-3000km Marine motors are not weaklings they are well built and have to stand up to long journeys.. Late model marine outboards what ever category are very good --Read an article about the tests --- weeks on end flat stick under load In this case it was yamaha.... Other manuf are no doubt conducting rigorous teasts.. That answers your warranty comporsury services demanded by the service fraternity...

It is difficult to sugest by me to break your warranty even if its only in one's mind...

Ahoj

BaysideMarine
16-09-2006, 12:27 AM
Hmmm...Ahoj draws the longest bow possible I think.....

Your lawn mower conks out, ok, you dont cut the lawn today.....

Out wide on the continental shelf and your engine breaks down....... perhaps, maybe, only slightly, a HUGE bloody difference..... Out of radio range? out of cellphone range? Shit, whose going to save me???

Worst case YES, but a very possible scenario.

I'm sorry Ahoj, but comparing a marine engine to a lawnmower is folly, to the nth degree.

One runs at around 3000rpm and is a very, very, very basic 2 stroke consideration. The other is a high performance engine, required to be ultra reliable and regarding the lawn mower engine never the twain shall meet...

Also, if you think that an auto electrician will have ANY IDEA about marine ignition systems then you are very wrong..... Marine, ADI ignition (Alternator Driven Ignition) is very different to automotive ignition. Early, early outboards used battery CD ignition but thats long gone. Its all self sustaining stuff now. No battery required (other than to fire up the starter motor).

Sure, there will be a number of cluey auto elecs that have picked up on the marine system but not that many. Most will have concentrated on their core trade of auto.

Yes I agree that there are plenty of shonks out there charging way too much for their servicing but if your outside your warranty period then one should either find someone cheaper or dont be complacent and learn to do it oneself.

BUT, I think its prudent to point out that owning a boat is a LUXURY and anything luxury has a high price tag associated with it. On one hand that could be attacked as a justification for high pricing but on the other hand it could equally be argued that given its a luxury market then you will be accepting of the high costs...

And I dont personally think thats unreasonable. I love watersports and they are expensive.

Cheers

ahoj
17-09-2006, 11:20 AM
BM,

Your argument has some merit but continental shelf? what are you doing there with one motor? today motor electricins are also facing computerised car ignitions--- which new car is not? anyway.. Boats should not be a luxury but affordable commodity as simple as possible and repairable in emmergency
Just note most interest in boats up to 70 hp are boats up tp 5.5 m. and the s/h boats anything goes. the boats over 20 feet fall into a category that is not always affordable for the average fishing bloke thus are the luxury items and these people's services are mostly tax deductable so who cares... My motors go for check up every year... but not for service 15$ then i know what should be done... maybe i am also lucky i have a friendly local marine man...

Ahoj

BaysideMarine
17-09-2006, 07:58 PM
A $15 check up is very cheap, too cheap.... I suppose though, in reality it doesnt take long for a quick comp check, gearoil check, waterpump check (visual when running in the tank) and a tank test.

Although, its probably quite a smart marketing technique. Bit like the auto joints that offer a $49 "safety checkup". They know that every vehicle rolling in the door WILL require work, so the initial cheap price gets people in the door then you upsell from there, no different to any other business really.

Perhaps he doesn't operate that way. But its a good marketing ploy regardless.

Smart business.

BaysideMarine
17-09-2006, 08:14 PM
Sorry, forgot to add a comment re the auto electricians.

Yes, all vehicles are essentially computer controlled these days but they are NOTHING like an outboard ignition system.

Many marine mechanics dont understand the ignition system properly.......

You can pick this up by looking at an engine that has had most of the ignition components changed. It tells you straight away that the mechanic went on a "replace everything coz we will get it right sooner or later" approach....

Sure, that will usually work but it also means the customer has forked out mega bucks because the mechanic DIDN'T KNOW how to correctly diagnose the problem.

Cheers

PADDLES
17-09-2006, 08:54 PM
i don't beleive that you can compare 4s outboard engines to 4s car engines either. even though say a suzuki v6 200 outboard may be closely related to say a v6 car engine, the simple fact is, that to get the 200hp out of it and still keep weight to a minimum, they are very highly tuned and have far more complex systems than the car engine, hence the price of purchase and maintenance is greater. labour is the killer in anything these days and at $75/hr for most workshops and around $55/hr for mobile guys it soon adds up real quick. you are a very lucky man ahoj to know someone who will have a quick look for you for $15, that's a good deal. for myself, i dont know someone to do this for me and so i'll pay the money to get a (hopefully) professional service done. even though i am mechanically minded i'd rather pay the money when it comes to my family's safety and hopefully not being stranded somewhere.

FNQCairns
18-09-2006, 07:28 AM
I have more or less the same problem, I would like to buy a new outboard in the future because where I live when I am ready I will have bugger all chance of sourcing a good near new second hand one without a possible 1500km drive and fuss to pick up.

Talking to a dealer they will let me fit the engine although first run and on first on water will be done by them. I asked about how they go about loading my boat heavy (like +250kg)for the prop selection - and they do not! :-?

I asked about running a 2 stroke at proper WOT rpm within 10-15minutes of it first ticking into life and they do! :-?

AND they will aim for anywhere (middle preferably they say :P) within the manufacturers recommended operating range :-? not where it should be- high when heavy ;).

Way too many bad practices and hurdles, not to mention paying for 4 hours labor for service work that would take me 2 hours at home.

I think I have just talked myself deeper a low hour second-handy, at least the 25% saving will go some way to make up for how it was treated in the predelivery etc.

cheers fnq