2 strokes Dumped on the Tip?

[Grand_Marlin]

I have noticed a number of conventional 2 strokes for sale lately, dirt cheap, and people don't seem to be able to move them - Especially the bigger V6 units around the 200hp mark.

Are we going to see 2 stroke motors thrown on the tip as people don't want them anymore?

If you were considering repowering your boat, would you put on a second hand V6 that chews $250 of fuel each trip, but only costs you say 4 grand to buy?

or

Would you spend 20 grand and put a new 4 stroke or E tec on and use $100 of fuel each trip?

Also, would anyone consider buying a brand new, conventional carburetted 2 stroke V6 outboard these days?

And will we see an upsurge in diesel sterndrive powered boats?

Interested to see your thoughts on what the future holds for the humble outboard.

Cheers

Pete

[davez104]

Interesting one, when it comes time to repower my Haines V17 I think it will be an e-tec or similar outboard. Fourstroke would be nice, but the wieght and lack of instant grunt would concern me. I wouldn't want it to be any slower than it is now with a 135 V6 merc, not so much in top speed, but in acceleration. Better fuel economy would be nice, for the cost as well as increased range. I would take my boat almost anywhere but there is only so far 150L will take you.
When it comes to buying cars, I have always bought second hand due to the huge savings to be had. I would probably look to do the same with the outboard. A couple years old with a coupe hundred hours can = big savings.

Just my 2c worth.

Dave.

[Jackinthebox]

Quintrex has just built & released a 540 Freedom sport (bowrider) in a stern drive format with a duckboard on the back - called a "Freedom Cruiser" - that's gotta tell you something.

These guys don't do something unless there's a demand for it.

[ahoj]

GM -----we will see all as you described guzzling cheap 2 strokes expensive 4 strokes that realy need to run 10 yeras to save the extra cost-- but what we will definitely see is smaller boats smaller motors and diesel powered bigger boats.. going back to 6 hp and trundle slowly along and have a good day for 15$

and so say all of us Ahoj

[Spaniard_King]

I think we are still a few years off seeing the end of the BIG carby 2 strokers. IMO you still need fuel to make HP with 4 stroke and DFI 2 strokes making most of there savings down low in the rpm range I think there is still a market for the conventional V6 engine. If they are driven conservatively a reasonable fuel cost can be acheived.

There seems to be a myth of 2 strokes being far more supperior out of the hole than a 4 stroke. If the engines are setup correctly a 4 stroke can be every bit as good out of the hole.

my 2 cents worth

Garry

[jimbo59]

I just brought a 200 v6 yammy 96 model for 3500 it'll do me for a few months,If your easy on the throttle and don't mind getting there afew minutes later than the rest of the crowd it wont be to bad on juice.My last boat was a formula with a 225/4 stroke yammy it was'nt the b all and end all ;)

[finding_time]

Fourstroke would be nice, but the wieght and lack of instant grunt would concern me. I wouldn't want it to be any slower than it is now with a 135 V6 merc, not so much in top speed, but in acceleration.
Just my 2c worth.

Dave.

Dave

I think you would find that the 4 stroke isn't that bad of the mark!! There seems to be a bit of an urban myth forming that 4's have a really bad hole shot , this is more to do with the prop being used! ;)

Ian

DOH!!!!!! :P I see garry has already coverd the 4 stroke myth!!! Note to self read whole thread before posting :-[

[Homer_Jay]

I think people really need to look at just how many hours they ACTUALLY do in a year not what they think they will do. Look at the poll about how often you use your boat. Most of us use our boats between 21 to 50 times a year. You really need to look at that and how much fuel you are really saving. If you can pick up a coulpe year old 2 stroke for $4000 verses a new 4 stroke for $20,000 would take a long time to make up the difference. Then there is serviceing costs. I see from what some people have been saying on here that the 4 strokes are more expensive to service. I think there will be a market for 2 strokes for a while yet. Especially in the smaller range. I do think that sterndrives will become a more popular choice in coming years as will the development of smaller diesels and bringing with a more cost effective alternative for those who do alot of hours and need reliability. As there is no doubt that a diesel is 100 times more reliable than anything else on the market.

Im not expert and have never owned a 4 stroke. So this is just the way i see it at the moment IMHO

[finding_time]

Homer Jay

One thing upgrading to a four does is give you more range which these days can make all the differance to the esky. I know a guy that went from a 200 oil burner using 45l/per hr to a four and is only using 31l/per hr on the same cruise speed. This has improved his range by 50 % His boat had a sealed tank with no room for inlarging so unless he carried jerry cans this was the only option ;)

Ian

[Homer_Jay]

Ian,
Yeah when you put it like that it does make it look like a good option.
I have to wonder how do people who take jerry cans of fuel to sea refuel when there is a big sea running? I would say it wouldnt be the safest thing to be doing. And that would be the time that you would need the extra fuel when the sea blows up and you gotta work the throttle to get home.

[krazyfisher]

I had the choice of 2s or 4s 140hp I went 2s dont get me wrong if I had money to burn I would have gone 4s but it was a differance between $4000-6000 and that is a lot of fuel, I split fuel with whoever comes with me and with the why the winds are it would take me many years to make up the differance.


homer_jay
I take jerry cans and I refuel when it is calm. this is normally when I am behind an island. if you wait till you run out to add fuel than thats just plain stupid.

[PADDLES]

The big thing that'll mark the end of the conventional 2 stroke era will be when manufacturers simply stop making them. Honda corporation have been well renowned for making one of the best 2 stroke motocross bikes on the market, but next year they have made the call to cease manufacture of all 2 stroke bikes as a corporate statement to the world. It'll happen to the other large manufacturing companies in good time, pressure from the public to be environmentally friendly will win out in the end. I own one of their bikes and am wondering how long the parts support will last for now. I also have kept my 135 black max merc on the boat for the reasons that homer jay has outlined above, my usage could never warrant the purchase of a new 4 stroke and the fuel savings could never cover the price difference. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that i'll be using it till it's dead and taking it to the tip like grand marlin has said because it's got very little resale value and when it finally does die it'll probably be hard to get the parts either if carby 2 strokes are condemned by the manufacturers. ::)

[davez104]

Spaniard_King & finding_time,
I know there is not a huge difference in performance between the 4s and 2s, I just think that by replacing a 135 2s with a heavier 135 4s, would probably dissapoint me a little. As said though, the increased range would be a big deciding factor, not so much the initial cost.

Thanks.
Dave.

[boyzie]

DEFINATLY GO THE 2 STROKE.....you save 16 grand on the motor and 16k is a shit load of petrol.

[timddo]

hmm, 4grand ----> you get what you pay for.
20 grand the chances of a motor breaking down is low. While a 4 grand motor... you may need a rebuild real soon. Like the saying, whats good is free whats cheap is shit.

[Spaniard_King]

;D ;D ;D Tim I think your onto something... I certainly use that rule as well ie if it's cheap theres probably a good reason ::) unless of course its a bargain and your the only one in the market for one ;)

Garry

[littlemac]

G'day guys,
I say go the E'tecs, having owned a 115 4 stroke and 135 opti, i am now changing boats and motors, we have gone for the Etec, when you see the benefits of them ie fuel,servicing the other thing i found out was a 4 stroke has 225 moving parts in the cylinder head and an etec has 2, i just don't like 223 other reasons for something to happen

Brett

[SunnyCoastMark]

hmm, 4grand #----> you get what you pay for.
20 grand the chances of a motor breaking down is low. While a 4 grand motor... you may need a rebuild real soon. #Like the saying, whats good is free whats cheap is shit.



Since when is 4 grand cheap?! :o It should get you a 2 stroke motor with lowish hours, gc no more than 10 years old - up to around 70hp.

Fair enough if your talking 200hp - I think you need to be more specific.

Mark

[PADDLES]

i think GM (who started this thread) was mainly refering to v6 carby style motors if ya read his first post. so we're talking 135 minimum mark. $4k is dirt cheap in that power bracket when a new 4s is going to be $16k and up. ;)

i reckon that GM is bang on the money though, the big conventional 2 stroke is just starting to be on it's way out.

[whichway]

Hi

Read something from teh US - Johnson are are still supplying 2 strokes, and only because they have credits due to their selling a lot of 4 strokes over the past few years. Yamaha may be as well I cant remember.

Yes, that is no 2 stroke Mercs (except for optis), Evinrude only make etecs, Honda, Suzuki 4 st only - As far as the US is concerned carburetted or old style EFI 2 strokes are pretty much a no goer - how big is the rest of the world market for 2 strokes - will they still be manufacturing them for the non-US market.

While there will be 2nd hand 2 strokes around for a long while, I think that within a couple of years, there will only be DFI and 4 stoke new motors, which will really have an effect on the second hand prices for 2 strokes.

But economically, you will never pay for the fuel savings by changing from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke, unless you are using your motor 5 days a week.

Whichway

[Croweater]

I can see why people would buy an old 2 stroke, if theres a $2000 price difference, it pays for a lot of fuel.

[gif]

I just spent 8 months studying outboard and emissions. #That means I know a lot of desk facts but could not tune an outboard to save my life! ie I want to hear from you guys too becuase I have much to learn.

So – here goes.

1 Low emission motors ( 4 stroke and 2 st Direct injection) cost 25.2% #more. # That’s like brand vs like brand #(not Tohatsu vs Honda but Yamaha vs Yamaha etc)
2 For the average or even heavy user the fuel savings alone is not enough to pay for the difference. # There are however many other differences like smell, emissions and noise as well as resale value to consider.
3 Emissions: # One of the most popular motors sold in Australia is a 15hp 2 stroke that puts out 249 units of pollution (HC+Nox #g/kw/hr) # # At least 2 brand of 50hp put out only 13 g/kw/hr. #
4 The Myth about 4 strokes being WAY heavier is very much exaggerated. # What the weight difference between the Honda #50hp and the ETEC #50HP? #(the message #here is check facts not rumours)


Personal points
5 Hole shot? # I think its over exaggerated. ( Ok except for Bar crossings) # #You can save a heap of fuel and emissions by being gentler on the accelerator. #Look out for Rick Huckstepp’s review of the new Honda 90hp and how it addresses the hole shot issue.
6 Old technology 2 strokes are “out” or going out in Europe, USA and especially California. # Canada is following. # ( see emissions above) With these markets closing for old tech 2 stokes there will be no new product development and models will be dropped out of the range over time. # In fact it has started.


Emissions: # we will have a new emissions labelling system in Australia starting 1 January #- though they will start to appear on outboards in November. #

The emissions scheme draws on the USA schemes. #The two main emissions measured are Hydrocarbons (HC) and Nitrous Oxides (NOx) combined as g/kw/hr. #
The star rating system will be as follows:
Zero star - High emission (>250g/kw/hr) #- will be a handful of older design 2-stroke engines
One star - Low emission - most traditional #2-stroke engines
Two star - Very low emission #- some 2 stroke DI and 4 stroke engines
Three star - Ultra low emission - many 2 stroke DI #and 4 stroke engines. #

[PADDLES]

i was wondering when you would come in to this gary. considering your previous interest in this subject. i've got a question that might be answered from your studies. are there any 2 stroke oils that are more environmentally friendly than others? is there such a thing acheivable as a fully biodegradeable (in a short timeframe) oil?

[Jitlands]

Need to consider the resale value when calculating cost,
A $4k second hand 2 strokes gonna be worth zip in 3 years and will need replacing

A $16K new 4banger will see out many seasons and has a residual resale value

And my personal preference for the 4 strokes is the reduced noise levels not fuel consumption, emissions or hole shots

[gif]

Paddles

Good thinking - and in brief I havent seen that around. I guess it has been looked at in theUSA so that also means it somehow wasnt a winner.

But it seems that most of the emissions are not from the oil but also from the unburnt / part burnt petrol being spat out the exhaust. ( which is why 2 strokes use a lot more fuel.) Modern 2 strokes employ fuel "scavenging" - basically getting fuel back from the exhaust.

So - even a much "better" oil will not make traditional 2 strokes "clean".

Again - nice thinking Paddles.

Overall we have to accept that the USA has been at this for about 10 years - and so that means most ideas have probably been tried.

Still - lets not squash Aussie ingenuity. It was the (Aussie) Sarich orbital engine that gave us the fuel injection system that gave us E-TEC.

Gary

[PADDLES]

yeah true jitlands, but if the $16k 4s loses $4k of value (which it will) in 3 years you're back to square. the other factor financially would be if you invested the $12k difference and made say 10%pa min return over that period of time makes another $3600 less tax to add to the ledger. if you had to borrow the extra $12k you've got to allow for the interest as well. it all adds up and doesn't grow on trees :'(

[PADDLES]

yeah, the good old usa is steering it finally gary. i see on msn that big arnie has traded in his fleet of humvees the hypocrite. i mean his californian government is serving a writ valued at a gazillion bucks to all the major car manufacturers as we speak over emissions and he drives around in the biggest gas guzzling tanks known to man. factors that will control what my next engine will be are emissions and then noise now.

[whiteman]

the other factor financially would be if you invested the $12k difference and made say 10%pa min return over that period of time makes another $3600 less tax to add to the ledger. (

And where are you going to get the "10% minimum"? The current cash rate struggles to get back 5.5% if you invest $10k+ for 6 months.

However, I agree with your sentiment. I'd love a 4s on the back of my big boat (I have a 4s on the littlun) to give me better range. I guess I can get by with putting in bigger tanks and still save heaps.

[PADDLES]

say a managed fund for the three years, they're around that sort of return aren't they ;)

[saurian]

Guys you all seem to think 2 v 4s is a fair argument.
Do not get me wrong but 2 strokes just do not do the hours that 4 strokers do .
Screw the fuel , 1000 hrs compaired to say 3000 hrs .
Common sense says 4 stroke plus no oil , plus no smell.
Minus- , servicing , weight.
Hole shot , well depending on motor to boat application , debatable....
PS: i have 2- 2 strokes.

[PADDLES]

i disagree saurian, i thought that if all things are good and equal. ie. cubic capacity, power rating and maintenance!!!!!!!!!! the 2s will last just as long as a 4 stroke. could be wrong, been plenty wrong before :)

[mark221263]

I've got a 1996 150 hp carb mariner on the back of a 580 curise craft outsider. A trip to the hards off Mooloolaba uses about 130 litres on an average trip of 170 klm so I get about 1.25klm/lt in normal conditions with a bit of slop.

To upgrade to a 150 ~ 175 4 stroke or etec would cost heaps and I expect from reveiws etc would improve my consumption to about 1.8 klm/lt or a reduction to using about 95lt for the same trip. At todays prices of say $1.20 a litre thats a saving of $42 per trip plus 2.5 litres of oil at $8/lt ( I use the good stuff) so my 2 stroke costs me $62 more for a trip like this if I dont deduct the extra servicing costs etc of a 4 stroke or HPDI 2 stroke. And I know the etecs are good on the service side but you pay up front for that as they are selling at premium $.

Anyway, as I normally have 2 other guys with me and we split the costs I would save $62/3 or about $20 each per trip if I had the 4 stroke???? When I add bait etc we all get a great day out for about $70 each vs $50 each if I had a newer efficient donk on the back. For me doing only about 100 hours a year the 4 stroke outboard is never going to get payback and would probably be worn out or corroded out just when it was starting to save me $.

Remember if your like most of us these days you probably bowed all or part of the money for that boat, so the increase of $4000 for the upgrade to the high tech 150hp + outboard when compared to a basic 2stk is costing you about $400 a year in interest, which is probably more than you save in fuel!

In saying that though, if money were no option I'd love to have one of the suki 4 strokes or an Etec on the back just for the lack of noise, smoke and smoooooth operation.

[Grand_Marlin]

Interesting and well thought answers.

In relation to the price of big V6 Carburetted (not fuel injected, no toptimax, not Etec) 2 strokes ... I notice a few jeers from the crowd.

Take a look around at what is happening to the prices of these things ... this is what prompted me to start this topic.

There were 2 x 225 EFI Mariners (99 models) - ex coast guard - in really good condition with 400 hours on them - available for $9,500

There are / were 2 x 225 1997 model Johnson Ocean Runners for sale on here - in really good condition - couldnt even get a sniff at $10 grand for the pair.

So, to laugh at $4000 not buying a good V6 2 stroke is to say the least is an "uneducated" view.

12 months ago they still help good resale value, but not now.

It seems to be directly related to the fuel price rises ... since the fuel had jumped to $1.30 a litre, nobody seemed interested in them - yet there seems to be hundreds of new 4 stroke 225's getting around now.

Cheers

Pete

[Grand_Marlin]

Also, with the 4 stroke v's 2 stroke "out of the hole" theory - I have photographic proof that 4 strokes need less horsepower to match a larger 2 stroke for equal performance ....

Take a look at the twin motors on this boat in the pic...

It has a 130 Honda 4 stroke and a 150 Johnson 2 stroke on the one boat :o :o

Only in Texas .... literally !!

Cheers

Pete

[Kopey]

And will we see an upsurge in diesel sterndrive powered boats?

Interested to see your thoughts on what the future holds for the humble outboard.

Cheers

Pete


With latest outboard releases such as the new Suzi DF300 4 litre V6 that only weighs 279kgs (well over a hp per kg!!), it may possibly be that we may start to see more and more outboard powered craft especially in the larger vessels which were once dominated by sterndrives also considering the extra expense and stuffing around that comes with fitting sterndrives not to mention the extra weight.

What I'd reckon would be interesting would be to see if any engine manufacturer would come up with a diesel outboard maybe?

[PADDLES]

they'd be too heavy kopey. i mean the size/weight to power output is getting better in cars but they're doing it with turbos and the motors are still heavy because they've got to be made from cast iron.

[Kopey]

Fair call Paddles but with common rail direct injection and such it's not out of the question afterall a diesel engine is usually very efficient. Take a look at the new Holden Astra 1.9 litre turbo diesels, absolutely haul @ss yet consume so little fuel.

They're already using superchargers on 4 strokes with the Verados and turbo charged diesels aren't that uncommon with sterndrives if anything would probably be more popular if they weren't so expensive.

Just a thought anyway, with the rising costs of fuel people will be looking more and more for more economical engines, probably why we pay more for lesser refined fuel diesel. ;D

[Grand_Marlin]

The diesel sterndrives are more expensive than a 4 stroke outboard, but the longevity of a diesel motor is way in front of any outboard.

10,000 hrs is common if looked after etc etc ...

Kopey, Yanmar and Volvo both make smaller diesel outboards ... the armed forces use a lot of them.

Cheers

Pete

[greenyday]

is there any 40 hores powered ones thanks

[Grand_Marlin]

I would have to ask ... from memory I think the Yanmar ones I saw were 36hp?

Cheers

Pete

[Chimo]

Greenyday

Check out these sites for 36hp diesel also evinrude

http://www.marineenginedigest.com/profiles/evinrude/evinrudemfe.htm

http://www.yanmarspareparts.com/news.html

http://www.yanmar.com.au/marine/d_series/dseries.htm

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11289849/Yanmar_Diesel_Outboards.html

Cheers

Chimo

[insideout]

when do you think that volvo will throw there chips on the table and design a outboard with the props facing the opp way ,like their doing on the bigger boats of late? apprently its the ducks guts as far as fuel, power ,ect. something to do with clean water...

[BaysideMarine]

why would they do that insideout???? The idea behind the IPS is to produce thrust in line with the hull lines as opposed to a conventional drive system (shaft drive) which uses a shaft at an angle to the running surface of the hull thereby wasting a component of the thrust in that downward direction rather than all thrust in the parallel direction.

Outboards and stern drives already achieve that aim. Except for the props forward of the gearcase.

Cheers

[PADDLES]

good one GM, i've never seen a diesel outboard before. maybe they will start making them more available. the range of diesel car engines from europe is getting larger and larger here.