How many hours is too many??

[Spaniard_King]

Just wondering what the general con census is on what you guys think is too many hours on an engine be it 2 stroke or 4 stroke when buying a second hand engine.

We all know dealers have there own perceptions so I am trying to gage the publics perception on second hand engines ATM

cheers

Garry

[blaze]

Good question Gary
For me, If I was offered a motor with 1000hrs that had been well maintained and looked like it, things like evedence of frequent greasing, no sloppy bushs, nice and fresh looking under the cowl (you know what I mean) or a motor with scatches on cowls and generally rough looking, an appearance of lack of respect. I would take the 1000hr one every time.
cheers
blaze

[Geoff_Atkinson]

I agree with Blaze,

Especially if the 1000 hour job had a full service history.

[Spaniard_King]

Guys I should have defined it a bit better ::)

Is an engine viable a viable buy at say around 1000 .... 1500 .... 2000.... or even 3000 hours

Is a commercial engine looked upon differently ??

what do you consider to be a commercial engine??

Is age a factor??

I also think there will be different answers for both 2 and 4 stroke do you agree??

cheers

Garry

[PADDLES]

if it looked like it had been well maintained / looked after and there was a good logbook history of the motor, i'd buy something up to 600 or 700 hours. for me personally i'd be a bit suss on anything with much more use than that only because i don't know how to work on outboards myself but have a rough idea of how to maintain them. if i knew how to fully work on outboards i'd go with more hours as long as it looked good. the motor i've got now is a 1992 model 135 v6 and i bought it with 420 hours on it. very little use for a motor that old i thought and it also looked immaculate to boot :)

[peterbo3]

Hi Garry,
Asking the easy ones ;) ;) ;) ;).
1. Log book with required services shown & receipts. Evidence of factory upgrades to software or parts. Not available....I am gone.
2. Low hours on an old motor.........I am gone.
3. High hours on a new motor........I am gone.
4. 2 St with good service record.........200-400 hours.
5. 4 St with good service record.........500-800 hours.
Leftover warranty is really good as long as it is transferable.
Exceptions are things like 9.9 or 15 Johnnos that never die.
Physical appearance of the motor is important. Rust on the powerhead or evidence of a fresh paint job is not good.

[peterbo3]

Three reply posts at 11.36, no collusion there. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Commercial motors? Pro fisherman, water taxi, police, DPI. They normally trade em while they are still OK but remaining shelf life is doubtful.
Some will be serviced OK & some won't. The newer motors with ECMs have the history there. You would know how many commercial motors come in for service or repairs. And a commercial use motor has a reduced warranty. Manufacturers do that for a reason ::) ::) ::) ::).

[Geoff_Atkinson]

Even if a motor has done 2000 or 3000 hours, so long as it has a good service history (by a reliable dealer workshop, not some shonky backyard or mobile mechanic) it would probably be a good buy. The price would also be fairly reduced for the extra hours to make it a good buy.

I am looking at this as though I was someone who would be looking at a second hand motor. Personally, I would never buy a second hand motor again (once bitten twice shy) there are too many shonky mmarine mechanics who are biased to one make of motor or another out there to warrant it. Stick with a dealership or reputable dealer.

[finga64]

Aah, but if anything goes wrong with the commercial guys they get them fixed straight away and fixed properly.
Look at the taxi's. How many km's do they do before they're stuffed compared to the overage Joe-Blows Commodore.
Their lively-hood depends on the motor.
To me it wouldn't matter who had the motor. I would look at the overall condition and service records.
The hours wouldn't really matter either. High hours but well maintained is a lot better then very low hours and stuff all maintenance.
Age is a consideration mainly for reasons of parts availabity and economies.
Cheers Scott :)
P.S. Why do you ask Gary??

[Spaniard_King]

Three reply posts at 11.36, no collusion there. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Commercial motors? Pro fisherman, water taxi, police, DPI. They normally trade em while they are still OK but remaining shelf life is doubtful.
Some will be serviced OK & some won't. The newer motors with ECMs have the history there. You would know how many commercial motors come in for service or repairs. And a commercial use motor has a reduced warranty. Manufacturers do that for a reason ::) ::) ::) ::).


Peter, Service history is not recorded on an ECM/ECU, any faults are generally reset unless they are present. However they may store engine hours and RPM profiles. I think service history is a valid argument if it can be verified.

is not the current condition of an outboard more important than the service history or do you think the condition could be missleading

Garry

[Geoff_Atkinson]

Could be, how many shitty looking taxis do you see out there, but they still run well because they have been looked after!!

[Spaniard_King]

Scott, were all going to be in this situatuion sooner or latter :P


There is a lot of talk over what new engines to buy so there must be a few second handies gettin around :-/
I have seen some people struggle to sell second hand engines, just wondering why

cheers

Garry

[Spaniard_King]

what about resue organisations, would you consider them comercial or a good buy??

They seem to let them go around 2000 hrs

Garry

[Geoff_Atkinson]

Rescue organisations would have to be considered commercial, same as a tow truck!

I understand most rescue organisations are self funded so that may be a reason they hang on to them so long.

[PADDLES]

garry, why would you expect a different answer between 4s and 2s? do you think that this would be a mental thing (ie. people are of the mindset that 4s lasts longer) or is there actual evidence to support it? i've been led to believe that they will last as long as one another if all things are good and equal. personally i'd be more likely to buy a 2s with high hours on it than a 4s simply because there are no moving parts (valve train) in the head to wear out. :D

[Spaniard_King]

Paddles I am assuming the difference would be due to the better lubrication of the 4 stroke in all of the moving parts supposedly giving it a longer life span.

I dont think there is enough data to support the Direct injected for there longevity compared to a normal carby 2 stroke. Do you think the 2 stroke would last longer if it had a forced lubrication system like a 4 stroke ie bearings fully supported in a oil wedge at all times when running :D

just my opinion tho ;)

Garry

[finga64]

Scott, were all going to be in this situatuion sooner or latter :P


There is a lot of talk over what new engines to buy so there must be a few second handies gettin around :-/
I have seen some people struggle to sell second hand engines, just wondering why

cheers

Garry
Gidday again Gary,
Is it my imagination or has the price of new outboards tended to become cheaper and cheaper over the last 10 years.
Sometimes peoples perceptions on what their outboard is worth may be wrong. I know I've been pleasantly surprised on the cost of a newy.
When I want to buy another outboard I would consider any outboard seriously because of a few reasons. These points not necessarily in order of preference. Also some of these points would lend themselves to new outboards as well.
(a) price....I'm on a relatively low fixed income and have to watch my pennies. But I'd also prefer to spend more for a better overall end result. A lot of balancing needs to be done with con's and pro's.
(b) Who's selling it
(c) Initial impression of the motor
(d) Sound (or lack of) of the motor when running
(e) Service history and by whom (but not necessarily from a service agent as some home serviced motors are extremely well kept)
(f) I'd like to see the rest of the boat the motor was on if possible and that would give an immediate indication of how well kept the motor was.
(g) Age
(h) hours
(i) What the motor needs doing to get it into Mickey Mouse condition. This little item has gotten me most of my outboards. I'm able to do and I'm not scared of a bit of work. I also have the time on my hands to be able to do it.

I've brought ugly looking motors in the past and one in particular (a little Tohy) has been the most reliable outboard I think I've had (except the little Honda). It looked ugly as the paint was falling off (but since found this is common to Tohy's) and the gearbox wept a bit of water in. A gearbox re bearing, reseal and water pump rebuild has got that fixed and now I know exactly what it's like.

Out of interest Gary, what's a reasonable late model 4 stroke 30'40hp electric start tiller worth now adays??

I'll probably think of a few more things but that's enough for now
Cheers Scott

[Smithy]

I would have trouble convincing myself to buy a 2 stroke with more than 1000 hours on it no matter what it looked like and how it was looked after. Would definately go for a 1200-1500 hour old 4 stroke no matter how rough it looked. 1500-1800 hours I would be umming and arring. Pro/amatuer wouldn't worry me. Coastguard or ex Police/Government would be fine - at least you know it would have been well serviced regularly. Allready bought an ex pro 2 stroke 2nd hand that served me well. Would always avoid buying something off a cat if it could be sussed out beforehand. Think they really do cop a lot of saltwater at rest and on the plane.

[Noelm]

hey Smithy, 2 or 4 stroke, hours are hours, a 2 stoke is just as well engineered and put together as ANY 4 stroke, now this is not to start a 2 V 4 war,and how many moving parts,or lubrication system or any other hotly debated areas, just a simple fact.

[Spaniard_King]

Out of interest Gary, what's a reasonable late model 4 stroke 30'40hp electric start tiller worth now adays??


Cheers Scott

Scott, I recon there worth as much as the market is willing to pay.. a bit of a cop out but really its true. I can't see too many getting around .. maybe $3000 - $4000

Garry


Garry

[Argle]

Is it just me but how many people say "Id never get an engine serviced by a dealer because they are shonks/bodgie or rip offs" but when looking for used outboards Dealer service history is a high priority?? :-? :-? Its a bit like people saying women drivers are hopeless but a used car with "one lady owner" is a great buy! :-/
Garry I think used outboards suffer from early outboards reputation of relativley short lives and high repair costs, add to the notion of not being able to push start a boat that has engine trouble. ;D
Just my thoughts

Cheers and Beers
Scott

[mono]

Hi Garry, its an interesting topic with a multitude of answers.
In my situation for example. 2x150 4strokes have already done 400 hours in a short time but they dont get turned off for 9-10 hours a day, even while drift fishing.
In summer I only travel at speed for 10 minutes to the fishing grounds then the motors are kept just in gear (slow trolling) for the rest of the day. The hour clock doesnt slow down when the motors are just in gear!
So I guess it is really important to find out the history of the owner as well. As a commercial passenger carrying operator I HAVE TO service the motors regularly, not because theres something wrong with them, but I just can not afford to have an incident if something did go wrong.

Having said that: "Jeez I love me Hondas".

Cheers

[hercules]

I think the general thoughts are the less hrs the better especially when it comes for resale . Having recently spoken to a few dealers most shy away from a motor that has a few hrs on it hence their big sales pitch to others when they resell it is it must be good because it only has a few hrs on it . The other is does it have any scratches on the lid . i can't see how that will contribute to its reliability as mine are from tilting the motor up against the bait board ( which has now been remedied ;)) since iv'e owned it .
I'm not just saying this because i have a 4 stroke with 850 hrs on it which i'm trying to sell ;) .
My last boat had a 70 2stroke only a couple of years old when i bought it with 50hrs on it . I thought it would be spot on but then was told the worst thing for it is not being used (unless you want to sell it ::) ) so i fixed that problem with many hrs on the water :D . I originally had to get the carbies overhauled and the trim /tilt motor clagged 6 months out of warranty . A mate had the same motor he bought from a pro crabber with a 1000+ plus hrs on it and never had a problem . (it was even less smokey than mine ) Sometimes you just get a bit of dud .
My last chev had low ks for its age but cost me over 10k in 3 years on repairs . My latest chev has a few ks on the clock when i got it but it didn't bother me because it was done in a short time .It will be a down side when it comes to sell it as the first question is how many ks has it done .?( not the fact that i tow 4 tonne doesn't get mentioned :-X )

There just seems to be such a stigma in hrs/ks done when there are so many other things to look at .
Now does anyone want to buy my honda with 850 hrs on it ?? ;D ;D
Craig

[BaysideMarine]

I would have trouble convincing myself to buy a 2 stroke with more than 1000 hours on it no matter what it looked like and how it was looked after. #Would definately go for a 1200-1500 hour old 4 stroke no matter how rough it looked. #1500-1800 hours I would be umming and arring. #Pro/amatuer wouldn't worry me. #Coastguard or ex Police/Government would be fine - at least you know it would have been well serviced regularly. #Allready bought an ex pro 2 stroke 2nd hand that served me well. #Would always avoid buying something off a cat if it could be sussed out beforehand. #Think they really do cop a lot of saltwater at rest and on the plane. #

They are the engines I would NOT buy, as a dealer..... thrashed by many operators.... who have a low care factor as its not their money...

[noluck]

I think the general thoughts are the less hrs the better especially when it comes for resale . Having recently spoken to a few dealers most shy away from a motor that has a few hrs on it hence their big sales pitch to others when they resell it is it must be good because it only has a few hrs on it . The other is does it have any scratches on the lid . i can't see how that will contribute to its reliability as mine are from tilting the motor up against the bait board ( which has now been remedied #;)) since iv'e owned it .
I'm not just saying this because i have a 4 stroke with 850 hrs on it which i'm trying to sell ;) .
My last boat had a 70 2stroke only a couple of years old when i bought it with 50hrs on it . I thought it would be spot on but then was told the worst thing for it is not being used (unless you want to sell it #::) ) so i fixed that problem with many hrs on the water :D . I originally had to #get the carbies overhauled and the trim /tilt motor clagged 6 months out of warranty . #A mate had the same motor he bought from a pro crabber with a 1000+ plus hrs on it and never had a problem . (it was even less smokey than mine ) # Sometimes you just get a bit of dud .
My last chev had low ks for its age but cost me over 10k in 3 years on repairs . My latest chev has a few ks on the clock when i got it but it didn't bother me #because it was done in a short time .It will be a down side when it comes to sell it as the first question is how many ks has it done .?( not the fact that i tow 4 tonne doesn't get mentioned #:-X )

There just seems to be such a stigma in hrs/ks done when there are so many #other things to look at .
Now does anyone want to buy my honda with 850 hrs on it ?? ;D ;D
Craig

i m with u craig
well all sayed

gary
if u got 2 years old motor with 1000h on and one 5 years one with 300h and u will se how hard is to sale one with 1000h
for me i will alway try to find one with lover hours and younger motor
no_luck

[PADDLES]

that's a fair point about the lube garry. do the 4s motors based on automotive engines use journal bearings or roller bearings like the 2s ones?

there's some top points in this thread now, i find it interesting that very few people (and i'm not talking about people who have responded to garry's question here, just people in general) make an informed or you would say an "objective" decision on what to buy based on some good technical information, and the history of an engine in the case of a second hand one. however there are lots of people who make very hasty "subjective" decisions based on basically what they got told at the pub.

the latter is who the dealers would generally have to deal with. so i'm guessing a dealer will only stock second hand motors that have low hours and scrub up ok because that's what most people want to see.

i'd also guess that when a dealer get's a good motor that looks a bit ordinary, he'd struggle to sell it, and that one of his mates would probably get a good deal ;)

[Spaniard_King]

Paddles,

the 4 strokes use journals exactly like a car thats why the oil and oil changes changes are so important.

cheers

Garry

[hungry6]

I'm no marine mechanic, far from it really, but I'm into motorsport and I can draw some sort of judgement from there, as for 2s I would not look at anything with more than 250hrs and 500hrs on a 4s, otherwise go straight to a new one.
One never know what the previous owner done with the motor or how often it is grounded and then polised up to sell. My personal preference would be 4s efi if possible.
The hrs above does look low but think about it, on average a boatie would be lucky to put 5hr per week end if he went out every week end of the year he would have put approx 250hrs. So how many of us put our boat in every week end for a full year? I would expect a 250hrs motor to be about 3-5 Y.O, and to me that's aboutas old I would look into a motor.
Just my 2 cent

[BaysideMarine]

Gee Hungry6,

I guess you wont ever be buying secondhand out of Bris or NSW with such a low hours requirement.....

[Spaniard_King]

Not only that Hungry6, the motors are that new you'l be paying top$$ may as well buy new eh :-/

Garry

[Hagar]

Good topic

This reply is probably more applicable to the the fours than the two strokes - but do a quick calculation . I would expect to get 200,000 - 300,000 klms out of a late model car engine regularly serviced without major rebuild . Averaged at 80 kmh that's 2,500 hours by my calculator . A boat engine may do it tougher some times but it also records hours when it's only idling unlike the car which only records mileage when it' rolling but #would have idled for lots of extra time . Hopefully adds a bit of perspective . Servicing and owner care would be my priority I reckon . ;)

Chris

[Kopey]

A good procrabber mate of mine racked up over 4,500 hours on a pair of V6 Merc 135 2 strokers, before the port engine spat it after doing the oil injection in it. I then proceded to remove the powerhead on it only to be impressed at how there was not one scrap of salt build up or corrosion in the block, the engine never seeing fresh water in it's life. I fitted a new complete block on it from Mercury only to find it was rattlier then the starboard engine which had already done over 4500 hrs.

He now has a pair of DF115 suzis which he has nearly racked up 4000 hours with and are still going sweet. Have plenty of other examples but one that's more recent I spose would be a Yamaha 100 4 strk (ex Fraser Coast Sportfishing Charters) with about 900 hours on it that sold for $7000. All the compressions were still sweet & the engine was as good as the day it was bought. I considered it a good buy.

I reckon it's basically comes down to regular maintanace and care on the owners behalf as to what makes a good secondhand engine. Hours are neither here nor there (unless your talkin really big hours), a compression tester and a good listen to the engine & check by a trained technician would be a more telling factor. Particular engines say as such as some of the older VRO V6 Johnos which use to get a bit ordinary after around 1000 hrs of use (as from my experience anyway) but then it was nigh on impossible to kill an old 25 Johno, certain engines wear differently to others. In general a fourstroke will last longer than a 2 stroke just like a diesel usually lasts longer than a petrol engine due to things such as less horsepower demand from a larger engine, etc.

Just some of my thoughts on the matter anyway
Cheers Ads ;)

[PADDLES]

hey kopey, how do ya know if the oil injection pump has failed? is it as simple as keeping an eye on the temperature and watching for it to rise or is it only when it siezes that you find out? it's the one thing that i'm paranoid about with an oil injected 2 stroke because i beleive there's no warning. :(

[Kopey]

Depends on what motor you have Paddles, earlier VRO systems gave lots of grief, they are an injection system which relied on a vacuum driven pump. Oil injection systems driven directly off the crank were far more reliable, the Merc/Mariner systems however use a plastic drive gear off the crank which drives a steel gear and I've seen a few of these chewed up (Yamaha ones have stainless steel gear).

Most oil injection systems have a motion sensor though so when the oil pump stops the alarm sounds. If you are a bit scared of it though it doesn't hurt to put a little bit of oil in your fuel or at least always carry spare oil just in case she stops. Majority of oil injection systems are pretty good though, only thing I don't like is you cant run the carbs out of fuel after you use it, I've had to do many carby cleaning jobs for this reason. Good idea not to leave your motor sit for too long.

Hope this helps
Cheers Ads #;)

[MyEscape]

Paddles,

That's a good point actually and something I'd like to know. Do 4 strokes last longer than2's. i.e if you compare them in similar situations and run at the same hours/speed etc, what's the result?

I honestly think a lot of people prefer the knowledge that their motor is new, your second hand boat floats just like a new one, but your motor may not run and start as one.

I've actually got a 30hp yamaha, now amost 2 years old and used around 4 x 24 litres of fuel since new (yes I haven't used it much). How many hours - who knows, like new - you bet, so would you buy it for just under new price, I think not.

Steve

[PADDLES]

thanks kopey, i've got a mercury motor so it sounds like an alarm will at least sound if the pump stops turning.

yeah steve, i've been interested in the same thing (comparing engine life between 2s and 4s). one of the big revolutions in small engines over the last 5 or more years has been in dirt bikes. in what is now called the 'open class' a 250cc 2s is lined up against a 450cc 4s to give the 4s some parity on power output. to get the same performance out of the 450 4s, and keep it as lightweight as the 2s, it is highly tuned and the internal components are made very light (ie. less metal). as a consequence the maintenance goes through the roof as these things wear out a lot faster taking the maintenance back to the same level of work needed on a 2s motor. plus there's also the other stuff that goes with a 4s like valve clearances, valve spring replacements (to cope with high revs), very regular engine oil replacement (every day's riding).

now don't get me wrong here, i'm only talking about engine life. i firmly beleive that either 4s or di2s is the way to go for the environment. :)

[snapperm8]

well hears something my old man was talking to a lady that works for the straddie flyer and she said that there old boat which is pretty old and small in taxi terms and u can see it if you look left whilst looking walking onto the flyer. It has twim outboards on the back, and she said that they have done 12 000 hours :o :o. geeze thats a fair few and those things are runing non stop during the day

[mcgilld]

Never can avoid a 2s Vs 4s thing can we!

After much homework and a limited budget i recently bought a 175 Optimax with 1200hrs on it. A crabber had put these hours on it in one season - so 'hot hours'. The compression was excellent, the readout for rev range was good, zero corrosion to speak of, all linkages were fine or had been replaced- ie it hadn't been flogged...or scrathed for that matter.

Months before I couldn't have seen myself doing this but when you talk to people who use motors commercially you get to hear from those who really test motors - not us weekend warriors!
A commercial operator I know recommended not be scared off by hrs if the motor has been looked after as he'd sold a few pairs at over 2000hrs and they're still running years later without rebuilds. A very experienced Merc mechanic told me 2000hrs before these motors are turning up with any problems to speak of but 2500 is probably not unreasonable life (that's many years of rec use). The crabber I bought off offloads a 1 year old with 1000hrs every year and they're running all over the district. Wondall Rd marine mechanic was servicing one that had 3200hrs. Word has it some pros in Cairns are offloading Optimax at 2000 hrs and still getting good money. So anyway i took the plunge! If all's well i've saved $10,000. If not - it's certainly not going to cost me that to fix even major damage!

Cheers
Dave

[mcgilld]

Oh - and while I'm at it - would anyone agree that new outboards (&boats for that matter) are completely and unashamedly overpriced??

[PADDLES]

agreed :)

[O SEA D]

Not to mention all the out of the box problems you hear about with brand new motors.

[solaris]

I agree with Peter with old engine Low hours, but I would have no problems with a with a two year old motor with 1000 hours that has been serviced regardless of 2s or 4s. But I would expect the motor to be priced accordingly to consider a purchase, as the person you will be selling to will be looking at the same thing.