Roll'inator

[Kiktz]

Just heard the news.........

Mates took a 7m Markham Roll'inator which seems to be the new ride for the bay,
For a test today and the boat under the supervision from Markham's Rep.
The boat rolled quite well........... YES thats right in the BAY!!!!!!!!!
Wrong side UP!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(

It just goes to show you that the boat is an important part of what we do on the water................................. :-? :-?

I know a couple of guys on here do own markham's that well slam me for posting this but Hey............................ :'( :'( :'(

[onerabbit]

Oh bugger :( :(, hope no-one was hurt.

Muzz

[Homer_Jay]

How the hell do you roll a 7 mt cat?

Must have been doing something pretty crazy!

[snappa]

what .......u kidding....... ;D ;D

[DR]

there is a bit over 3 pages on sportsfish regarding Dominators that have fallen over, some believe it is a problem with them. the particular thread has been running for months..

[finga64]

Too much catnip eh, Where's GM??? :)
Just hope everybody was OK

[Grand_Marlin]

How the hell do you roll a 7 mt cat?

What more can you say ....... #:-/

.... it is a sad day for the Cat fraternity .... up there with Steve and Brocky #:'(

RIP Dominator #:-[

Cheers

Pete

Just goes to show, even the best boats aren't idiot proof ;D

[Noelm]

is there any REAL reliable news about this? or just "someone knows someone who thought they knew something" as Markham is quite a reasonably reputable manufacturer (by the way I do NOT have one) so some sort of substantiated material would be predent here I think.

[Kiktz]

Idiot proof............ Yeah well

If had of been me driving I could understand.........

The guy driving has got over a couple of thousand hrs in a cat.
He owns a 7mtr Cat, hence why he was asked to go along for the test.

This mishap for lack of better words happened in the top end of the bay yesterday only a couple of K's off from Clontarf. He was simply running across the chop as most have had to do coming in from any outside trip.

Comments heard was that she walked a hell of alot............... You know what i mean.

From there I just dont know, taking to old mans allison out in god weather and coming home in sh!tty weather atleast it would be my fault for something like this Happen..........

P.S Yep every one got out well after a couple of hours sitting on the hull.

[Grand_Marlin]

Actually, I will retract my "idiot" comments ... I had just sat down after 8 hrs driving back from Coffs (incl. stops with kids being crook etc etc) and wasnt in the most sociable frame of mind.


It just goes to show that any boat, no matter how well claimed its seaworthiness is - is not infallible.


I do hope everyone was ok after the ordeal.


But, gee, I still wonder what the hell happened....

Maybe if Foxy is around he can shed some more light on the handling characteristics of the 7m dominators, as he knows them well.

Cheers

Pete

[marlinqld]

I was at Clontarf and Scarborough Point yesterday PM.

It was blowing a gale and covered in white caps, not a good day to be out in any boat.


Mike

[Grand_Marlin]

It is still unbelievable ... there seems to be more chance of being struck by lightning than a cat rolling in the bay.

It would be easier to roll a dodgem car at the local show :-/

I have not had much experience in the big Dominators ... but a SharkCat side on to that sort of stuff is probably the best and most comfortable running angle you can have.

We have put an 18 ft sharkcat skew ways off a 3m swell at around 30knots ... burried the front starboard sponson .... thrown white water everywhere ... and still kept on trucking.... #

It would be very interesting to know what has gone wrong.

DR, can u pm me the sportsfish site please?

Cheers

Pete

[Kiktz]

Totally agree Pete........

Its one of those thing that you wouldn't bet a $1 on it happening.

But like anything it just goes to show you anything can happen.

Dr Can you pls post the sportfish link as I would like to see it too.

I had to ring a mate last night and tell him as I was the main person in talking him into buying a markham, it is an older model and he said the same as you Pete that he has had'em over the front and just keep on punching.


I would like to hear from guys like Foxy that have more knowledge that I

[Argle]

Dont let Troy get a hold of this ;D ;D ;D ;D :-X

[Grand_Marlin]

Argle, I just logged back on to say the same thing #;D ;D ;D




TROY .... Move Along .... Nothing to see here ..... ::)

[DR]

don't know if this is allowed, but i am sure it will quickly disappear if not..
http://www.sportsfish.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30334

[Kiktz]

Dr What a thread.............. makes this look like a walkin the park.
Either way some very valid points coming out on both sides of the fence

[dfox]

Just got onto this topic.
Ive now done around 900 hours in my dominator and ive read these articles with interest. Basically all i can say is that in the time ive owned mine ive had it out in awful conditions probably more then in good, and a number of times my trailer has been the only one in the car park at the mooloolaba boat ramp on a saturday (that in its self gives you an indication of the conditions) ive fished commercially in it as well as a number of other boats, usually off the shelf or near too, ive been caught several times in storms, ive voided my insurance a few times by heading out in conditions over 30 knotts, crossed numerous bars, ive spent some of the most miserable nights in big seas, ive put green water over her numerous times, carried loads in excess of 1000kg's in ordinary conditions, basically i could go on for ages.. after all the experiences ive had in this boat i can say without a word of a lie its never once scared me or reacted in an unpredictable way.
If ever there was a boat to bring you home safely this thing will.
Hundreds of times its been in conditions that could roll a boat of any brand or make of simular size easily, and yet it never did anything unnatural to cause concern.
No boat is bulletproof and im sure if i was foolish or stupid i could roll it.
I dont know the details of this northside boat roll over and until i do i really cant comment.
The only scenario i can think to roll mine in the bay i would have to be screaming along quite fast on a windy day and then throw it into a hard turn and hope a wave caught the sponsen side on, a few crew members falling to one side would help and as she dug in over it might go.
There a fun boat to drive, especially throwing them around in tight turns, but theres a time for that sought of thing and 30 knott winds isnt one of them.
I look forward to hearing more about this incident as it comes to light ...foxy

[Homer_Jay]

It would be good to get the facts on what really happend. It does sound strange. I dont think anyone can really knock the ability of the powered cats in that size range. You just have to look at what some of the coastguard cats have done to save peoples lives in the last 20 years. There maybe be some sort of fault with the design of the dominators but i highly doubt this. Peter Webster himself ran one for a couple of years back in his TBF days if i remember correctly. If there was a problem im sure he would have been bleating about it untill the cows came home. I know that any boat can flip in the right conditions and in the wrong hands but for a 7 mt cat to flip on the bay there has to more to this story.

[bay_firey]

There a fun boat to drive, especially throwing them around in tight turns, ...foxy

Aint that the truth :o :o

[Kiktz]

Homer Foxy,

Not alot to the story at all..................

Test run, Punched into the 1m sea couple of K's off Clontarf area.
Took it on a following sea, took the boat across the sea.

Right sponsen went into a hole and never came out. In a straight line.
This happen lunch time yesterday.

With respect Foxy as you are well known for your fishing and boating
always having the right advice to help others out whether it be regarding radio advice or anything else. ( I took your radio advice)

The guy driving the boat at the time as earlier stated, has done alot of time at sea behind his own 7m cat. I beleive that this has occured due to the unfortunate circumstances at the time. The rep from north side stated to the driver of the boat that he had done nothing wrong in the way he was driving the boat.


The main reason for me posting this was a simple cautionary note for other Ausfishers who choose to take notice of this or deam it to be rubbish .
Up until yesterday I had very high regard for the Markham boats.
This has put a lil alarm in my head as it may do with others


AJ

[reef_king]

Interesting :o :o.....Although i agree with foxy would have to be something about driver era maybee.

[Kiktz]

Reef,
The guy driving has the same boat as you....................and done more than 2000hrs on it.

[Reefmaster]

I have fished out of Foxys Dominator many times and driven it on several occasions. I really could not fault the boat in any way and I have been in it during some pretty ordinary conditions like foxy stated and on one trip we needed someone behind the wheel to keep the bow facing towards the big seas as they rolled and went crashing up over the top of boat while we drift fished. While doing this you soon realize the conditions are pretty bad but all I can say is I'm glad I was in that boat doing it and I never once felt in danger. I thought the dominator handed a following sea really well and I'm totally surprised that someone could roll such a boat.

Freak accidents can happen and do happen on a regular basis and that's why you have to give the ocean waters the up most respect but sometimes accidents are not always a pure accident. (no offence to the guy who rolled the dominator if it was a true freak accident)

Regards Greg

[Sportfish_5]

Once is a freak accident ::) ::) ::) ::) a few in similar conditions does warrant further investigations by the manufacturer for a 100k+ rig I would hope.

[pearlbuster]

Has there been any major changes to the latest model 7m Dominators Hull That has enhanced this problem.

[opimax]

giday all
intresting read was talking to a fish`o the other day he was telling me the same story about his 7m dom.
to cut a long story short his boat was taking in s$%T LOTS OF WATER.
now this was a new boat he has owned it for a year half that time it has been in at the dealers trying to fix the problem.
will follow up on the progress of his drama`s but i got the feeling when i was talking to him that he was not a happy camper.

[Sportfish_5]

Saw the cat today just outside the workshop @ Northside Marine ---- OUCH :o :o :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) ::)

[Kiktz]

Would of like to seen pics Greg...............

[steveg1100]

The cats have being getting a lot lighter over the years I wonder if this contributes to it at all. Probably just clutching at straws trying to work out how they can topple over. I read on the other post that they toppled it over in calm water. I would have trouble trying to topple my old sharkcat in calm water. It would be hard to topple any boat in calm waters wouldn't it.

[reef_king]

Kiktz if he has the same boat as me then he wont need to look at another 1 ;D ;D

[Kiktz]

TY YOU KNOW IT.................... As I do. GO the '06 Commerical Hull I Say



He was asked along for opion sake.......... I guess he got an opion NOW.

[reef_king]

also i didn't mean to put the skipper down in a negative way, its just that every hull is different and reacts differently, in those conditions "MAYBE" he's used to throwing the coastal cat around doing high speed full lock turns ect.. and this hull couldn't do what he is used too or expects to be perfectly safe in his own boat.

ty

[loozitt]

The Roll'inator

I will have to agree with kiktz, the driver of the Roll'nator has many years experience in boats, and easily 2000hrs in his own cat. He is not an idot or reckless driver. He has experienced terrible weahter many a times when fishing, he has crossed a number of bars and is a very good skipper, he has the up most respect for the ocean. I was as shocked as you Kiktz, to hear of this accident, flipping a 7m Cat in the bay, in 1 to 1.5m of chop. I really can't say it's an accident, not if it has happened a few times before,I beleive that is a design issue. The Roll'inator makes my mono look good.

[Blackened]

G'day
anyone have any more news on this?

Dave

[dfox]

No-ones talking, i'd guess theres insurance involved...

[Blackened]

G'day
Fair enough then and totaly understandable :-X :-X :-X

Dave

[boatboy50]

Any photos of the aftermath? I didn't see it in any papers or on the news. I had been following the other posts of down south for the last couple of months also, but again, there is no hard evidence.

Until I see it for myself I have a bit of doubt about this event.

I'm sure it could happen, but it's all heresay at this point isn't it?

Darren

[seabug]

"I'm sure it could happen, but it's all heresay at this point isn't it?"

I am sure some people think it is HERESY ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Regards
Seabug

[Sportfish_5]

Any photos of the aftermath? I didn't see it in any papers or on the news. I had been following the other posts of down south for the last couple of months also, but again, there is no hard evidence.

Until I see it for myself I have a bit of doubt about this event.

I'm sure it could happen, but it's all heresay at this point isn't it?

Darren

Darren - I can confirm that I saw the stock 7m Dominator with the hondas down in the workshop at Northside. The hardtop was crushed down to the gunnels on the port side of the cat. It defintley happened 100%

Cheers

Greg

[Grand_Marlin]

Any photos of the aftermath? I didn't see it in any papers or on the news. I had been following the other posts of down south for the last couple of months also, but again, there is no hard evidence.

Until I see it for myself I have a bit of doubt about this event.

I'm sure it could happen, but it's all heresay at this point isn't it?

Darren

Darren - I can confirm that I saw the stock 7m Dominator with the hondas down in the workshop at Northside. The hardtop was crushed down to the gunnels on the port side of the cat. It defintley happened 100%

Cheers

Greg



Saw same....

[Gayle_Force]

Hi Guys, Gotta tell you the dominator knockers/armchair experts wouldn't know where the proverbial train was. #They wouldn't know the story until the people started getting off, ouch. #I am 50 years old and have been in boats since nappies, have a long family hisory with comercial/ amatuer boats and my brother is currently skipper of arguably the biggest cat on the east coast of Australia. #Fair to say we're a sea-going family. #I've had 35 years experience in mono-hulls and cats. Admittedly, cats the lesser. I recently ditched my ever so reliable Haines Hunter Prowler for a 7m Dominator. #I spent 6 months carrying out my due diligence between Kevla, Noosa and Dominator cats. #The final split was between a Noosa and a Dominator. #It was like trying to split fords and Holdens at Bathurst but in the end the raised helm, the asymetrical handling characteristics, lounge area for the missus and huge fishing area for me put the Dominator ahead of the Noosa cat marginally. #I have now 100 hours up, the first 20 never being under 20 knots and a couple of runs across the bay verging on 30. #I took every trip ever so gently as I gained confidence in what I can describe as an absolutely unbelievable Ferrari of the sea. #They have unique handling characteristics that no other Australian designed cat has achieved to this day; they turn like a mono and punch like a cat. #They are indeed a unique design. #My last outside trip, i headed up to Cape Moreton in a 30 knot Northerly with 5 happy fishos aboard bagged out and laughing I hit the cape on an outgoing tide in conditions that I could only describe as true crap and the last 100 hours I've had my girl in beam seas, aft beam seas, front on, you name it - its been there, and never once felt unsafe. #The NSW coppers tested these boats for hundreds of hours before they purchased 10 animals and I also questioned owners in WA, Tasmania and Foxy here in QLD before I switched my Haines for the Dominator, and now I have a question for the knockers: The guy behind the wheel had absolutely no experience whatsoever in this superbly designed and handling craft and yet it rolled in a metre of sea after just a few minutes behind the wheel and after travelling only a couple of km. #Give us a break, come on get your hand off it. #Could there be just a minute possibility that there was some driver error because boats like this dont make mistakes, but drivers often do.

Cheers,
Dirty Al

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Al,

It is good to finally see an expert opinion on the subject, because as you infer ... us poorer, uneducated fisher folk that sadly don't have your 35 years experience, or the money to buy one of these Ferrari's of the sea, wouldnt know anything about the subject.

And that is why so many inexperienced skippers that have somehow managed to come home through these exact conditions in their older, smaller, less seaworthy humble craft would turn to you and ask more of your invaluable expertise .... if for no other reason than just to lessen the shock of this incident.

We would gladly defer to, and welcome, your expert opinion in this matter ... as we are all soul searching for answers.

If you could kindly take the time to explain to us the benefits of the asymetrical planing hull of the Dominator, as compared to the symetrical semi displacement hull of the older 7m Sharkcat, as compared to a 7m Monohull, and conclude by answering the posed question:

How the F##K does anyone, experienced or not, roll a 7m Cat in a metre of chop?

Cheers

Pete

[Tony_N]

er ..... #I'm with Pete, Al :P ---??

Tony

[youngfisho]

pete,

buy me a 7m dominator and well find out!!!!!! ;)

maybe a tight turn at 30 knots in 25 to 30 knot winds could get the cat unstuck.

I remember when first joining this site about a 26 foot black watch that rolled coming into the seaway, which coped a wave from the back and flipped it over.

either way its a shocking incident that really needs investigating irrespective of driver experience.

What the F was the fella from northside doing at the time this driver decided to roll it?

my two cents

andrew

[Homer_Jay]

The only reasonable explaination that i can think of is thay they hit somthing in the water and holed the hull on one side and kept going as it filled with water. No doubt when you get the weight of water over one side and throw it into a hard turn she just might go over. Either that or they had it overloaded and they were all on one side in a tight turn.

I just cannot see how else it can happen. Problem is with things like this no one will own up to making a mistake. Especially if it is someone from Northside. They are supposed to be the experts remember.

[Roo]

Homer Foxy,

Not alot to the story at all..................

Test run, Punched into the 1m sea couple of K's off Clontarf area.
Took it on a following sea, took the boat across the sea.

Right sponsen went into a hole and never came out. In a straight line.
This happen lunch time yesterday.

With respect Foxy as you are well known for your fishing and boating
always having the right advice to help others out whether it be regarding radio advice or anything else. ( I took your radio advice)

The guy driving the boat at the time as earlier stated, has done alot of time at sea behind his own 7m cat. I beleive that this has occured due to the unfortunate circumstances at the time. The rep from north side stated to the driver of the boat that he had done nothing wrong in the way he was driving the boat.


The main reason for me posting this was a simple cautionary note for other Ausfishers who choose to take notice of this or deam it to be rubbish .
Up until yesterday I had very high regard for the Markham boats.
This has put a lil alarm in my head as it may do with others


AJ


I don't think I misread this, but ther seems to be a lot of talk about an imaginary high speed turn being the culprit.

Where does it say he made a high sped turn

[Ian_Reeders]

Advantage of the asymetric hull on the Dominator is the boat leans into the turn like a mono. Sharkcats etc tend to lean out of the turn. Makes me very sceptical that he could have rolled it in a turn. I believe the dominators are completely filled with foam so I dought there was a lot of water in one hull. I don't profes to being an expert though. Just my 2 cents.

[BrandonH]

I have no idea on this boat and its handling but one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the chop in the bay compaired to the open sea..

I have bee told that Moreton bay is one of the most dangerous areas of water in Australia. Now I know most days its fine and you could take a tinny to Moreton ::) but I have been told that in a good blow the waves can be 2mtrs high and 2 mtr apart :-/ This is sooo much different to what you would get outside, lots of people I have talked with have told me they would prefer to be outside in 30knots than in the bay in 30knots due to this close wave factor..
Now again I have no idea on what the 7mtr dominator can do and handle (just about anything from the sounds of it 8-)) I just wanted to bring another factor to everyones attention that may have come into the equasion...
What if the boat was running side on to this chop, got the right beam caught in a trough (spelling :-[ :-X) while the left beam was being lifted by another wave. could this with a bit of excessive speed make it go over?

Cheers

Brandon...

[Blackened]

G'day
I believe this is a totally freak accident. Maybe there were engine issues with one engine stalling, maybe there was an under water hazard, maybe alot of things. One thing that needs to be established is the fact of wich way did it roll?? back end up over bow or side over side like a corkscrew motion?

Maybe the anchor came looze, hit ground and rolled the boat?, albeit... I'd imagine this would rip the front end out and not allow the boat ro roll as such, but may pull it into a very sharp spin.

Does anyone have the weather observations for the particular area of bay on that particular day?

I'm with pete on this one..... how the f*ck do you roll a 7M cat inside?

Dave

[Homer_Jay]

I think this is one we will never know the REAL story on...... Too many people will be red faced over the whole thing i would imagine to ever tell the truth about what happend. Its funny how you can leave out one or two contributing factors and it makes the story a hell of alot more interesting. Bit like a car accident, never anyones fault are they??? But they are nearly always caused by some dumb a$$ doing something stupid.

[Kiktz]

Guys........I am Sorry for bringing this back to the top.............

But I have not been paying attention to this post for a while and I have
just taken the time to have a read.

Gayle Force,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it is comments like that, that make me not want to reply. This is an open forum and you are intitled to your opion. I knew when posting this that I was going to create more than a stir. I value Dave's (dfox) opion and was hoping that he would post as he did.
You comments regarding the not so financial sector and the not so experienced are the exact reason why forums like Aus Fish exist.
If I saw you on the side of the road I would still stop and help as dont
seek to criticise others as you do from your high perch.

"The main reason for me posting this was a simple cautionary note for other Ausfishers who choose to take notice of this or deam it to be rubbish
Up until yesterday I had very high regard for the Markham boats.
This has put a lil alarm in my head as it may do with others"

Brandon, the conditions were pretty much as you stated but not 2mtr's only 1. Having had numerous talks with the driver of the vessel, I ask what true mate would let a thing like this die I mean losing a big fish is one thing.............Roling a boat no matter what the size is another. I for one will never let him forget.
The right sponsen found a hole and fell in love with it and the next wave caught the left sponsen and she went over. The boat did from what I have been told bury in and flip on the starboard side.

Aj

[Kiktz]

Just to clarify my posting

The boat roled into the wind and chop...........
Not with as you would think

Aj

[Mr__Bean]

Aj,

For interest, what angle to the wind (wave) and what estimated speed?

- Darren

[Kiktz]

Darren,

THe boat rolled starboard down. Was going across the waves>>>taking them on the starboard side with the wind coming from the same angle.
Speed was about 21 knots give or take 1 or 2 knots

Aj

[Mister]

This is only for those that have actualy seen the above mentioned boat after this incident.

Were foils fitted to these engines? Yes/No?

[flatstrap]

Just from a different angle...

If someone said to you, I'll give you a GAZILLION dollars if you are able to take this 7m Cat and roll it in the bay. I know I could do it deliberately in a moderate chop.

Then, alternatively, what if the skipper was doing the same action(s) without realising it, would the result not be same?

ALL BOATS will sink given a set of circumstances; regardless of intent. Does the name Titanic ring a bell?
A 7m cat is still classified as SMALL CRAFT! It's a toy when you look at it against the big picture of the maritime world...flatstrap

[Sportfish_5]

No foils

[Dogbream]

Just from a different angle...

If someone said to you, I'll give you a GAZILLION dollars if you are able to take this 7m Cat and roll it in the bay. I know I could do it deliberately in a moderate chop.

Then, alternatively, what if the skipper was doing the same action(s) without realising it, would the result not be same?



What action would you take flatstrap to cause the roll over? what is your experience with the 7m dominator?
What would you do differently to the cause of events?

THe boat rolled starboard down. Was going across the waves>>>taking them on the starboard side with the wind coming from the same angle.
Speed was about 21 knots give or take 1 or 2 knots

Aj

[flatstrap]

Att: AJ
The proposal was theoretical.

Just as one can roll the best handling car available, e.g., Maclaren, Ferarri or Goggomobile Dart, the same principle of rollovers can be applied to watercraft as they are subject to the same laws of dynamics.

I am NOT saying, I could have avoided the rollover. What I am saying is that a rollover is a constant possibility in ANY boat. If one was so inclined, you could roll any boat and/or roll any motorcar.

AJ: As you are questioning my boating experience, here it is:
Over 30 years:
773 Haines Hunter twin 470 Mercs
5m Shark Cat 2x90 Johnsons
7m Shark Cat Flybridge twin 470 Mercs
7m Haines Cat 2x200 Black Max's
7m Edencraft 2x200 Yamaha
and my first love: my first boat 12 foot Quintrex Premier 35 HP Evinrude

Plus DeHavilland Trojan, 7 commuting tinnies of all sorts an 1 Ski Boat Connoly with an F1 Mercury OB.

I know boats....flatstrap

[GBC]

Theory from someone who has no credentials............or credibility

1. 7m Markhams lean in on turns
2. monos lean in on turns
3. monos lean into the wind
4. Markhams might lean into the wind????? (and fall asleep and lie down).

Therefore:

Markhams need TABS??

My theory for the day.

C.J.

[BrandonH]

Thanks for the extra info on this AJ ;)

I tell ya what this thread has made me remember something my dad told me when i first started driving a boat...

Always expect the unexpected, don't take your eyes off the water and what your doing no matter where you are or what the conditions are!!!!!


Cheers N
tight Lines

Brandon...

[Kiktz]

Flatstrap,,

Dont remember having a go at yourself........ But hey if the shoe fits I will wear it,,,,,,,,,,,, just dont think it does in this case.

Brandon I agree 100%,

I think members on here think I have something against Markhams, if they choose to read my posts a lil more carfully I like the rest of us here was really suprised to hear of this sorta thing happening. The facts are though
now that a lil more light has been shed on the subject that this is not an isolated event. As someone mentioned the black watch rooling in the Seaway at Chrissy time, who woulda thought. It happens and was highlighting this as i know my self that if I was in the market for a cat that i would like to know all the right questions to ask............. Simple stuff really

[walruss]

Whilst no professing to be an expert, a Markham will lean outward the same as any other cat, if it is not driven into the corner correctly.
Same principle as driving a car, back off a touch, start the corner then drive through.
If that is not followed it will lean out.
Anyway thats what i found out when I was driving one.

Russ