Which outboard is cleaner?

[gif]

Hi Guys – some of you know I do a little committee work for the good of fishing.

I need your help with this one for a presentation I am doing to a government conference. Can you help me out?

The question is

All outboards put out some emissions or pollution.

In your opinion, which of these outboards is the cleanest?

There are no right or wrong answers – its your opinion that counts.

Thanks!

Gary

[Blackened]

G'day
The suzi's run pretty clean. As does an opti. I'll have to say a mercury, as they make the riptide;)
Dave

[gif]

actually the riptide is a minn kota model - but i like the joke

[thesimmos]

Tohatsu 4 Stroke!!

They make the mercury and probably make those riptide motors aswell... Mercury being a yank company it wouldnt suprise me if they rebadge everything and just do the heavy marketing.

[Nugget]

I suppose it depends on how you define 'clean'.

Emission standards are one thing, but what about the disposal of old filters and oil?
Should that be taken into consideration?

Dave ><>

[Blackened]

G'day
Aah well.... it was fun whilst it lasted. Shoulda taken 3 minutes and found the great white of the motorguide;). Good idea on the whole oils/filter thing nugget. Something else to pull into consideration.
Dave

[gif]

146 reads and 35 votes?

its just your gut feel I am after - dont be reluctant!

[Nugget]

Honda 1st, E-tech a close second and everthing else trailing a fair way behind - at a guess!

Dave ><>

[gawby]

I had a 90 merc saltwater series on GAWBY and it went really well but the two stroke smoke and smell and oilslick on the water was something else.
I now have a 115 4/s yammy on the GAWBY II and it is so much quieter and no pollution and makes the day so much better.
Thats my two bobs worth. ;)
Graeme ;)

[gif]

Dave

I thought that too - until I checked the numbers.

I mean it sounds right that 6 litres of used oil is a lot to account for. But used engine oil is recycled not dumped in the water.

I checked some sums today on new model 150’s. Both of these are very very low polluting motors. Both winners in my book.

Over 100hrs a Honda will put out 158 kg of Hydrocarbons and Nitrous Oxide ( HC+ NOx) So even if we got crazy and dumped the used oil in the ocean that adds another 6kg (6.7 litres) to make the total 164kg. So the used oil does not add a lot to the total.

Over the same 100 hours of running an E-TEC 150 hp puts out 170 kg of emissions , so the Honda still beats the E-TEC (just!)

If these numbers look bad or unreal to you hold in to your hat. One of the cleaner 40hp carby 2-strokes puts out 450kg of emission over 100 hours. Thats right - an engine one third the size puts out more than twice the pollution! And that’s from one of the cleanest carby 2 strokes. This is all based on certified US EPA data on an ISO engine test cycle.

Yes the 4-stroke has an oil change at 20 hrs. And the E-TEC computer injects extra oil in the first hours of a new engine. So they probably come close to balancing out.


But the Bottom Line is that even though an oil change sounds like a lot of pollution - when you do the numbers it does not make as big a difference as I first thought.

Gary

[charleville]

Gary - I applaud the intent of the question but the methodology of asking the question of a bunch of boofheads like us, many of whom will have only owned one brand of motor and therefore prone to give a most biassed answer would suffer a lot of questions regarding research method validity.

Surely the response that you get will be related to the market shares of the brands???

I have a 4 stroke merc and I never get a whiff of fumes nor am I the one who changes and discards the old oil so it all seems pretty good to me but I could not offer any insight as to whether this is any better than, say, the equivalent Yammy which uses the same powerhead.

Likewise, I get my merc serviced every 12 months but one of my mates gets his yammy serviced every nine months. #He is discarding more oil than I am but may well be running a better tuned motor on average.

Anyway, just my $.02 worth. #I am sure that the intent of the question is a good one.

:)

[Spaniard_King]

Gary,

care to share the website with this info??

Garry

[gif]

Garry

The info takes a bit to decypher. I spent 3 months on it developing a data base and had access to all the OEDA Senior Managers

So - happy to help you out with interpretations.

The raw data is at

EPA Marine Database –

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm#marinesi

CARB database –

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert.php

[Spaniard_King]

Thanks Gary,

Looks Like a few rainy days needed to go through that stuff :-/


cheers

Garry

[gif]

Garry

The main number you need is the HC+NOx g/kw/hr

That gives you Hydrocarbons ( unburnt fuel and oil)

and Nitrous Oxide ( a poision that causes acid rain etc etc) added together

The number is in grams per Kilowatt (metric hp) per hour.

so say the number is 13.2 multiply 111 kw (150hp) by 100hrs divice by 1000 ( grams to kg)



Also - when you look at the data they only certify one engine in a family. So if the 40hp and the 50hp are the same motor ( same cc, just the output limited) they only need to certify one engine in that family.

And the outboards are not all re certified evey year - so you need to look at teh 2005 2006 and 2007 to find your motor.

OR - you could just ask me. ( by email not PM)

Garry - will you call me please? 0412 111 573

Gary

[Feral]

Cleanest is of course Minn Kota, but you left them of the list!

[Spaniard_King]

Hey Feral,

how good are those Minkotas, ya recon they will get me to the banks and back ::)

Garry

[Mad_Barry]

Cleanest is of course Minn Kota, but you left them of the list!


Depends on how you charged the batteries for it ;)

[Feral]

Hey Feral,

how good are those Minkotas, ya recon they will get me to the banks and back ::)

Garry


If ya had enough of em!

The other issue is of course ethanol blended fuels, the rather nasty emission that come from burning ethanol are not tested for or regulated currently, as the concern has always been hydrocarbons, but ethanol burining produces copious quantites of ketanes and organic acids, both nasties! (It also destroys mineral based engine oil, meaning more regular oil changes)

[marlinqld]

I see Evinrude in their latest ad campaign claim they are the cleanest engine on the markey.

Big call??? Fact??? Smart Marketing based on the fact most ordinary folk wouldnt have a clue???

Obviously they would most likely have data to back up the claim.

[phewy]

According to Evinrude, the least pollution emitting outboard (to carb 3 star ratings) is a 4st EFI motor.

And as a side tidbit, found whilst cruising around previous posted links...
Can you tell which ducky was swimming with a conventional 2st outboard motor? #:D

http://www.mass.gov/czm/boatenginescoop.htm

20 - 30% of unburnt fuel/oil straight out the exhaust? $2 - $3 for every $10 worth of petrol spent, wasted, straight into the environment?? .... staggering! :o

Maybe the sooner conventional 2 sts are banned altogether the better? At least the bigger, more fuel/oil guzzling (read environmental polluting) ones anyway. #:-/

[gif]

phewy

I have never seen Evirude say that - can you verify the facts and point it ouit to us?

[phewy]

phewy

I have never seen Evirude say that #- can you verify the facts and point it ouit to us?


No, they didn't say it. That would be bad advertising. And that is not in Evinrudes/BRP style. But they did make public a graph that whilst states the e-tecs are lower than 4st and 2st carby engines in total HC's and NOx emissions, clearly depicts an efi 4st motor has even less again.
8-)

[gif]

interesting

where did you see that?

[phewy]

Gary...see pm.

[gif]

In response to some very valid comments:


The brands are irrelevant. I did the same numbers for a Suzuki 150hp and it comes out at 5% extra emissions because it has a large 8 litre oil pan.

The real issue is that used oil after 100 hours adds only 3 to 5% to the emissions when you actually do the calculations.

And I will only accept that 3% to 5% is only valid when someone is such a vandal that they dump the used in the ocean or are dumb enough to just put it in the wheelie bin.

The numbers from 2004 tell us that 80% of all used oil is recycled and its getting better. So maybe 20% doesn’t get recycled properly but I don’t believe any is actually dumped in the ocean.



I also had a comment from someone who did not believe that an outboard would put out 160kg of emission over 100 hours.

I know it sounds a lot. The first time I saw the number I didn’t believe it either.

But look at what goes in. at 17 litres per hour for 100 hours that’s 1,700 litres or about 1360kg plus an unknown kg of oxygen. Fuel does not disappear – it mixes with air (oxygen) in a chemical reaction we call “burning” (not trying to be sarcastic - just pointing out things well know) and forms new compounds including carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and the other emissions.

When you measure the kg of inputs the kg of pollution outputs does not seem so unrealistic does it?



One more : Minn Kota s aren’t zero emission. The electricity comes from a power station where they burn coal. So the emissions are just mover to another location - they are not zero.

Fair enough - I hadn’t thought of that.

[seatime]

In response to some very valid comments:

One more : # #Minn Kota s aren’t zero emission. # #The electricity comes from a power station where they burn coal. # So the emissions are just mover to another location #- they are not zero.

Fair enough # - I hadn’t thought of that.


Hi Gary, just a question, if the electricity used to recharge a Minn Kota is included in emissions output, why isn't the fuel production included in output for petrol OBs. What sort of emissions come from oil refineries, or are they relatively clean?
I guess that's a road we don't need to go down. #:)

[Mad_Barry]

4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes.

We could also extend the true emission comparison figures to include the emissions generated in the extra mining and manufacturing to produce the numerous cams & valves for a 4 stroke as opposed to a new generation 2 stroke.

A 4 stroke would have to be around 5% to 10% more in upfront emissions generated ;)

Also, How many trees have been chopped down to make brochures and magazines for selling 4 strokes to the masses ? How much emissions are generated from a logging operation ? How much emmissions are generated in producing the electricity used in a mammoth printing plant to print these ? How does all that printed matter get shipped around the country ? How does the consumer get to the newsagent of post office ? How much longer does he leave the light on in the dunny while reading all this stuff ? It's quite a conundrum :)

[marlinqld]

They learly say it in their new ad campaign on television. I am not mistaken, have heard it twice now while watching the ad.

[thesimmos]

I am curious what the true emissions comparision would be between a Tohatsu and a Honda 30 HP 4 Stroke..

I am curious why Nugget chose the Honda Carbi over the Tohastu EFI... Unless of course your talking about a larger 4 stroke than a 30 which case tohatsu cannot compete.

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Thesimmos

You are not making a lot of clarity there mate

No one mentioned a Honda 30hp


Emission rating (HC+NOx g/kw/hr)

Honda 4st 30 hp 14.08
Tohatsu 4st 30 hp 14.51
Tohatsu 2st 30 hp 164.16


Source USA EPA

[StevenM]

Ok Gary, who is the winner and what are the results

Cheers

Steven

[gif]

winner?

- The fish, oceans and the environment #if you buy one of the 4 strokes.

- The oil companies if you buy the 2 stroke

Lets not start any more arguement that 2 stokes accelerate better. # # Yes they are. #

I am just asking people to also consider emissions when they buy. # # In this case the 2 stroke is 11 times worse for the fish. ( CLARIFICATION: average of 11 times the emissions of Hydrocarbons and Nirtous Oxides which are the only two pollutants regulated by US EPA and CARB. Europe regulates these tow and Carbon Monoxide)

Gary Fooks
Eco Friendly Fishing Association (EFFA)

[PADDLES]

Gary, that is one of the best arguments i have read about why i should buy a 4 stroke. I've read a lot of threads about how much fuel you can save and how passionate certain owners are about which motor they have bought. But i've never seen actual figures on the emissions. The environmental argument alone will make me look towards a 4s when the time comes for a new motor.

[gif]

Lets clarify

When I say 2 Stokes - I mean Carby and EFI


Direct Injection 2 strokes are in the same category as 4 Strokes. Low emissions and low fuel consumption.

Direct Injection (DI) 2 strokes are Yamaha HDPI, Tohatsu TLDI, Mercury Optimax and Evinrude E-TEC.


Personally - I am looking for a new motor soon on my short list are 3 motors - two of them are 4 Strokes and one is a DI 2 stroke.

Gary

[Ron173]

OK, but wheres the results of the poll? surely you will post them after us all taking part for you?

[Spaniard_King]

Ok..so who's gunna put a cat on there carby/EFI 2 stroke ;D

found here http://www.stevensmarine.com/nmma.php

[PADDLES]

how do they put a cat on a 2s outboard?????? where????? won't it get wrecked by the oil/fumes?

[Nugget]

I am curious what the true emissions comparision would be between a Tohatsu and a Honda 30 HP 4 Stroke..

I am curious why Nugget chose the Honda Carbi over the Tohastu EFI... Unless of course your talking about a larger 4 stroke than a 30 which case tohatsu cannot compete.

As I was in the market for a new 90hp motor recently so I looked pretty hard at emission figures.
I'm a long way from deciphering the gobbledygook that Gary can quote off the top of his head but my simpleton understanding of the numbers indicated to me that - of all 4 strokes, the Hondas had the lowest emissions.
Off all the 2 strokes, the E-Techs had the lowest emissions.
A comparison between the Honda 4 stroke and the E-tech 2 stroke showed very little difference.
The main thing I noticed was how far ahead 4 strokes and all direct injection 2 strokes were over the older designed carbie models.

Dave ><>

[thesimmos]

Hi Dave,

I chose a 4 stroke because they are really quiet but have heard alot of the newer 2 strokes can be just as quiet.

Also because of the rumours that 2 strokes may be stopped from going in certain areas. I have heard that they have already done this in some areas because they can pollute quite badly. I think more in freshwater areas for obvious reasons these days... i sure dont want a glass of water and oil.. (yes i know they process it i am just using an ignorant comment)

Mind you I had a Yamaha 40 and after I moved here from Sydney I took it for its first run and even after starting it at home the smoke bellowed from one end of Raby Bay ramp to the other.. I am certain people where thinking "bloody mexican's they come up here and pollute our water ways..."

After taking my boat out a number of times and having pretty much the same thing happen along with the motor being unreliable and old I ended up looking into a new motor..

With the Tohatsu one of the things that appealed to me was the ability to pull start even if your battery was totally flat.. and also not #having to take the cowling off to do it.. but i guess this thread is about cleaner with that said and based on the figures Honda wins.

Honda 4st #30 hp 14.08
Tohatsu #4st #30 hp # #14.51


I actually was planning to buy a Honda I think from the same place as yourself Dave but the fact that the Tohatsu was the only EFI with that pullstart with no battery in its size at the time thats what I chose.

Simmo. (1.2% of the vote)

PS. Is anyone amazed that Suzuki had so many votes? I truely expected Honda to win not E-Tec

[flotsom]

i think that when people see the marketing of the new honda 5 year warranty the results may change.

[lippa]

can you give any more detail on the new 5 year warraty flotto ;)? i'm interested in purchasing a 75hp tiller for my boat ;D and would love to hear the ins and outs of honda's warranty schedule. pm me with some details, if ya don't want to post them here.

ps hows mumma jugs? :) :) :) :)

cheers in beers

lippa

[gif]

I read the release

Its a straight down the line 5 year warrantee #on all new Hondas for private use # - no scams #no 2+3 or anything funny. Just a genuine 5 years.

Is that the longest in the industry ?

[flotsom]

lippa,

honda have introduced 5 year warranty 1/6/2006 as a preveiw for the new models they will release in november this year, they are 2 new models and i believe the motor you are looking for will be one of the new motors, i have herd from sources that it is light weight, awesome looking, and has technology unique to honda as you would expect, looking forward to getting as much info as i can and will let you know.

mumma is good, some say they turn eval, so fo so good. let me go riding yesterday while she packed.

take me fishing again soon lippa, i have a coral trout for this weekend if your keen for a chew.

[lippa]

coral trout, pheww, i rather eat some of kingtins vermin from the pine!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;Dnot!

mumma jugs lets you get away with way too much!

let me know when your moving. so i can make sure i'm away that weekend!!!!!!!

p.s, i am away if its this weekend, i'l miss out on the trout!!!

pps outboard needs service, bad, and a new tell tale! hey flotsom?

ppps i voted honda!!

cheers

lippa

[Murks]

I have an E-TEC and I love it.No guessing were my vote was
Murks

[Dory4.1]

I'd have to go the Honda, assuming all are 4 strokes, but I'd suspect with modern engines, they would all be similar.

Rgs
Michael

[Spaniard_King]

Just a bump for those who want to read :)

[Kopey]

I spose Honda really push the green image a bit. They are finally however just replacing the carburetted 75/90 and are yet to replace the carbed 40/50 so from a green perspective of a 4 stroke point of view I think the Suzi's 4 strokes and even Yamies 4 strokers are a touch ahead. They do still however produce and sell 2 strokes which puts Honda ahead in that respect I spose.

A 2 stroke be it DI or standard has got to use oil no matter what. Even at a ridiculously low 7.2 L per 100 hours as used for 200 Etec (claimed), that's still 7 or so litres that the 4 stroke didn't put directly into the environment.

That's just the way I see it anyway
Cheers Adam ;)

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey,

the emission tests are what is actually put into the atmosphere oil or no oil, these are not calculations they are tests.

cheers

Garry

[whichway]

Hi

Global warming has officially started as of last week. John Howard said so.

So shouldn't CO2 emmissions be considered also. Are all outboards of a given capacity about the same?

Whichway.

[Spaniard_King]

Hi

Global warming has officially started as of last week. John Howard said so.

So shouldn't CO2 emmissions be considered also. Are all outboards of a given capacity about the same?

Whichway.

Whichway, construction has a lot to do with emissions. Some manufacturers are ahead of others with there technology in reducing emissions. if your talking a capacity of four strokes #or DFI 2 strokes then yes there is not a lot of difference but you need to keep them in there own categories as it does differ alot from say a carby 2 stroke to a carby 4 stroke.

Garry

[Kopey]

Which outboard is cleaner? Easy, the Black one's ;) White and light silver show up alot more stains. :D

[finga64]

Which outboard is cleaner? #Easy, the Black one's #;) #White and light silver show up alot more stains. #:D


Crap matey, The Black ones show all the salt water spots #:D
Ha, just joshing with you ;)
My silver one is pretty clean, so is the grey one and so is the black tower of power (it's bloody hard to keep clean and shiney though...bloody salt spray >:().
The cook doesn't call me the Ted Bulpit of the boats for nothing you know. #;D

PS I do have a Kingswood too #:)
;D

[Kopey]

Just use a bit of Septone drifter gelcoat restorer, brush on area and rinse. That gets it off. ;)