PDA

View Full Version : de carbon



moonstruck
14-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Being fairly new to outboard engines, I see the term "decarbon" used in referemce to 2strokes.
How is this done ? at what frequency and what does it do.
Thanks

fisha63
14-11-2006, 10:53 PM
Usually done at service time, spray a can or two of Powertune into carbs under a few revs in a tub of water. Removes a lot of the carbon build up in the motor/exhaust .Not good for spark plugs but they are usually replaced at this time anyway........cheers

tiny_tinny
15-11-2006, 01:01 PM
Where do you buy "Powertune"? Will places like Supercheap/Autobarn, etc stock it, or do I need to go to a boat shop?

Mike

Roughasguts
15-11-2006, 04:19 PM
Just wondering about this stuff.
It disolves carbon in other words deposits caused by oil build up in the cumbustion chamber, and under the rings.

Sounds good on the surface..... But if this stuff does all that to carbon deposits.
What does it do to the oil that is suposed to be lubricating your bores and bearings while your running the engine. Does it wash it away and your engine is basically with out lube until it's all used.

FNQCairns
15-11-2006, 06:49 PM
Na Roughy Guts :D the dissolving bit is carried in the can by enough oil to cover the washing effect, good thinking though.

To make your own Pale oil 50%, Naptha 35%, Isoprol alcohol 15%.

There you go, a secret out now ;), run it through your 2 stroke. 4 stroke, mower, car, chainsaw etc etc.

cheers fnq

breamking
15-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Where do you spray it? :-?

FNQCairns
15-11-2006, 07:45 PM
If it's in a spray can, then down the carbs or hook up to the fogging attachment on some motors, if it is liquid can also be added to a small amount of fuel and ran thru that way, fill fuel filter up with it, or down a vacuum line on other equip.
Best to check out the engine manufacturers brands of cleaner, Johnson and mercury used to sell good ones in a can, just ignore the bit on the can that says to rev high if it still does, and do it at low rev's like under 1500 rpm and on a hot engine.
The crap that comes out is sometimes amazing, don't do it on concrete stains badly even exhaust port plugs of carbon sometimes.

cheers fnq

Roughasguts
15-11-2006, 08:14 PM
Thanks FNQ, that makes me feel better.

Me old man did something similar 50 years ago actually more, with stuck valves on the old side valve and push rod motors, when they hadn't been used for a long time.

He poured around 100ml brake fluid down the carby with the engine limping on 3 or 7 cylinders. And sometime before the huge amount of smoke cleared and the neighbours arrived, the engine was firing on all cylinders.

Now i'm curious would his old trick be a De-carb or something else.
What ever it was it freed the stuck vale.
Cheers.

FNQCairns
15-11-2006, 08:58 PM
Actually if you think back was it brake fluid or auto trans fluid? The old auto trans fluid was a great carbon cleaner, today it just creates white smoke. Could also have been water but wouldn't have smoked.

If it was brake fluid (dont know what effect it would have) it must have been the de-carboning that cleared it up I guess.
I have had the same good experiences with 4 strokes and brought a few 2st back from the dealer diagnosed grave as well.

cheers fnq

Roughasguts
15-11-2006, 10:11 PM
FNQ, it was definately brake fluid, watched him pour it down his Volvo V8 Penta, that hadn't been used in years.

Of course I was so impressed by the smoke being 16 that I had to show me mates and pour it down my Astron 2000 Motor. But there was nothing wrong with the motor. Well apart from it being a Sigma, Only good thing about those was the ..................... bloody hell, only thing I can think of, the day I found an idiot to buy it.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 08:46 AM
Talking of water in motors I found that when I finally pulled the Ford V8 to bits to rebuild it what carbon there was on the pistons etc came off sooooo easily with a bit of broken ring that the job was done in next to no time.

Ran water thru the motor for years in a home made water injector system. Great for power, (wider torque band) fuel economy and carbon.... what carbon ::) ::)

Cheers

Chimo

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 10:41 AM
Chimo, I played with water injection as well your right nice clean motor.

But don't think a 2 stroke would benefit as the fuel and oil and water would go to the crank first. Not a good idea!

And all that unburnt water on those nice crank bearings that don't get really hot might not be a good idea.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 11:15 AM
Hi Rough As

I am not sure about water in outboards being such a worry, particlarly if it was at the rates that I used to inject into the V8 and a couple of 6s I did too; you really didn't need much.

How much / what rate did you use?

Cheers

Chimo

Chimo
16-11-2006, 11:16 AM
Hi Rough As

I am not sure about water in outboards being such a worry, particlarly if it was at the rates that I used to inject into the V8 and a couple of 6s I did too; you really didn't need much.

How much / what rate did you use?

Cheers

Chimo

Oops how did I do this :( :(

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 11:39 AM
Chimo, my first attempt was really half assed, but hey I was 16.

First attempt was I found a blanked vaccum inlet Just under the carby of me 2 litre. Then wrapped a few coils of copper pipe around the exhaust maniflod. Then hooked it all up to 4 litres of water.

The ol'e 2 litre took off in a cloud of steam, and black soot, but spun the wheels in second gear hmmm was impressed.

Got back home after the 10 Ks of a good flogging down the Eyre Highway and no water left.

Had to go find some more to clean the soot of the back window.

I reduced the flow condiderably after that to around 4 litres per 300 kms.

But never played with it again after I sold that car.

I traded her for a XC Gt and she had carb tune, Ignition problems enough with out adding more problems to her. Never got that running right for more than a fortnight.

Cheers.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Hi Rough As

I see your problem ;D ;D ;)

A mate and I had a comp to see who could get the best result with water as far as power, economy etc

I was lucky at the time as I was spending a fair bit of time at the Ford Proving Ground in Vic (near the You Yang Range)

Anway they were developing the "Blackwood" at the time and with the odd chance to talk to a few engineers as well as the manager of the proving Grounds as well as a few other old blokes my mate and I attacked the water injection a bit differently to you.

The rate of injection for normal running; on a vaccuum guage a little above idle, was 4.5 cc per mile injected into the inlet manifold. #At higher vaccuum; more load; the engine automaticallly ingests more water and still it goes into the inlet manifold. #One old bloke told me they used to work on about a gallon of water per 1000 miles so it wasn't much but then the capacity of the motors he was talking about were pretty small too.

On the older motors at the entrance to the manifold before the air, fuel and water (with me) splits off to the individual streams there were a series of heated flutes (ridges and valleys ) #which the raw fuel dropplets etc hit to break them up for more efficient combustion. #With our injected water going the same way the system worked a treat for in excess of 100,000 miles and was still going when I sold it. #Dont know if the guy that got it kept it the way it was but he lost if he took it off.

The injection system was pretty easy once I worked it out. #I went straight into the ventury tube and the air flow going past the end of the hooded entry on the end of the tube did the rest

Probably rambled on too long, it sure was great fun putting it together and I did win the comp with up to 31 mpg out of the V8 on the road and 23 to 25 atound town instead of 8 to 12 and 18 on the road before I started.

Cheers

Chimo

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 12:21 PM
Chimo, thats pretty interesting stuff.
The technical thought process behind mine was a carton of beer, and nothing else to do. living in the sticks can be pretty boring at times.

Yep sure remember the Ford doing 8 MPG, two months after I bought it Me Old man, cut me off his fuel account.

FNQCairns
16-11-2006, 12:45 PM
I had not considered the economy implications of water injection before, I designed a rough unit using a washer motor and bottle linked to a vacume switch for the engine and turbo I built up to run 20psi years ago, it must have worked cause it lasted a fair while, till I sold it.

Still when bored enough for something to do hook the washer tube to a vacume nib on the inlet manifold of an EFI 2L Mazda and control the water from inside. I only ever then inject on full throttle and only for a short time.
6 months ago I decided to see if I could hydro lock the 4st mower that I hate with a vengence, garden hose in hand at the carb mouth, full throttle on the mower, stopped when emulsified crankcase oil started coming back out the carb in a bit of a hurry. Drained it, put new oil in then mowed the lawn, it's still going strong :(

Chimo good info on the rate of injection and also the extra MPG bears thinking about further along these lines for the Mazda if only for curiosity sake.

cheers fnq

Chimo
16-11-2006, 02:30 PM
Hey Guys

Thanks, its interesting stuff.

Now the extra bit of info you need to be aware of if you want to water inject and really get the max benefit is the engine timing.

If you advance timing normally you get pinging etc probably a bit like all the concern for stale fuel but with water injection its not an issue. Probably why I dont worry about a bit of water in the fuel cause I add 1% metho to break it up anyway.

To get the max fuel economy you also need to advance the timing. If its normally 6 degree advance I used to go to 12 degrees with no problems just great reduction in fuel used.

Then to really make things happen fit a ram tube under the fuel inlet ie carby, 50 mm is enough. Use a carb to manifold gasket as the template and you can use bakerlite or other insulated material so as to avoid latent heat of cooling impact ie freeze up your inlet flow path from the carb to the flutes in the inlet manifold.

Have you worked out the hooded entry on the end of the water inlet tube? This self feeds water into the air flow, no pumps and it auto meters the correct volume of water in proportion to the actual vaccuum depending on the load on the motor. Loaded motor eg towing up hill; more water is injected, coast over the top low vaccuum less water required as theirs little load and so it goes. It sucks its water from a reservoir in the engine bay. Then for good measure chuckk in some metho with the water! ::)

I use the same process but in reverse on the double entry outlet on my live bait tank so it doesn't overtop into the boat. How's yours going Jimmy?

Happy motor mods

Cheers

Chimo

Chimo
16-11-2006, 02:34 PM
Oh I forgot to mention; for all you old enough to remember the tests by RACQ RACV NMRA on water injection and how it doesn't work. :'(

Well no one ever did them about the changes you needed to make to timing and the impact of ram tubes etc ;D ::) ::) ::)


Ho Hum
Chimo

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 02:41 PM
Chimo, well that answered my next question, (timming advance) as to how come water injection saved on fuel. Cause I couldn't see how if it was metered after the fuel flow, and not before. How would the motor know the differance.

All me donk's are EFI now except me lawn mower and that type of equiptment.

So could I inject water just after the throttle body of me Pajero, hope this might work and save on fuel, cause then the computer should know the differance.

Cheers.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 03:08 PM
Hey Rough As

I suspect you would need to get into the computer chip and change the timing settings but I'm only guessing How is the timing controlled in your engine?

Not too sure what the air pressure and air flow inside the throttle body is like but if you can get a hooded pipe end exposed to air flow the low pressure in the immediate "downwind" area should be a suitable vaccuum to suck water into the inlet manifold. In the bell shaped venturi tubes things were fairly predictable re air flow and vaccuum.

If the vaccuums too stong its possible to restrict the water flow but I did all that stuff and found it was better with an open system. I used two 1/8 " copper tubes with the hood cut and inserted them into the air flow in the venturi tubes and when happy I just stuck them in position. The same system could work re the water side of things in your case but that leaves the timing / computer to resolve. What do you think?

this water thing is great fun eh?

Cheers

Chimo

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 03:27 PM
The timming is just Dizzy advance as far as I know on the Paj old 94 NJ 3.0 litre.
So might be time to re aqaint myself with water injection, she's a guzzler and could do with some more Horspower.

Even Boeing had water injection on there old 707's that be all that black smoke on take off. They claimed 10% more power for take off, but then they worked out the extra fuel load to carry the water was barely worth it. Then the E.P.A stepped in and banned the black smoke.

Hmmm water injection might put the flames out in me catalytic converter.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 03:31 PM
RAG

Sing out if you want more info


Where are you anyway? I'm Gold Coast

Chimo

FNQCairns
16-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Following with interest ;) nah! the cat will be sweet :)

cheers fnq

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 03:49 PM
Chimo, wish I was gold coast, I'm bloody miles away Central coast NSW.

Gives me something to do tomorrow at work like source some parts,
Like some tiny copper tubing from an old A/C thermostat, or similar.

This could be amusing, better start drinking beer again I think.

Chimo
16-11-2006, 04:30 PM
RAG #

1/8th copper, not the really small stuff; #and a new blade to cut the correct angle. ;)

Cheers

Chimo

PS If you get this going you'll be able to save enough to take a drive to the promised land ::)

Roughasguts
16-11-2006, 04:40 PM
Chimo, Thanks for that I would of been looking for the smallest stuff.
And I guess the smaller stuff would only work on pressure fed, and not low pressure wouldn't get any flow would I.

Yeah Promised the kids I would fly them up there one day, I got a big mouth.

Ahhh whats the correct angle, 60 degrees ?

Chimo
16-11-2006, 05:10 PM
Hi RAG

Right for flow go 1/8th cut at 45 degrees #then you get two for one cut ;D ::) #
Long section is the piece the air flow hits first hence low pressure vaccuum below to suck the water. ;)

Same cut section (with bigger plastic etc pipe works in a water vessel so that there is always a full pipe of liquid ie no whirlpool above to suck air and disrupt the liquid flow. ie live bait overflow or #water off a roof thru a box inlet to give it head to push water thru a syphon to a tank located some distance away from the roof etc. #Strange but not many people understand about hooded entry to get ful pipe flow. #If more used it you can drop pipe sizes and save a bundle. #Good for dam spillways too.

ie 2.31 ft head gives 1psi head pressure

Lucky kids are going to enjoy the GC theme parks ::) # Don't forget the discount tickets for the parks. ;) #We might even wet the boat while your here ;)

More later no doubt

Chimo

PS maybe we shiould have started a new thread ("water injection for happy owners and motors", "home plumbing 101", "spillway bypass overflows to save your dam in a storm" #we kind of got off the carbon point a bit

Chimo
16-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Hi FNQCairns

Sorry, too subtle for me whats the pussy bit? ::)

Chimo

Roughasguts
17-11-2006, 06:52 AM
Morning chimo, this is getting hard on me head trying to do the Maths.

I see the water consumption as 4.5 ml per mile or 60 -70 drops of water per minute. Now that ain't much, maybe one droplet of water for 1.8 cubic metres of air, for a 3 litre. ???????

Surely that can't do anything, I was thinking the water had to make the air more dence cooling it therfore giving a increase in charge after the big bang you would get better expansion = more power.

But Me head tells me that if you drive on a humid day you would get more moisture in the air than that one droplet maybe a hundred times more.

Maybe I've lost the theory of water injection when it applies to the combustion engine. Could you explain the concept again to me please.

Now the other thing is how am I going to measure out one droplet of water per second at say 2500 rpm. I was thinking something like the mixture screw on a carby to make fine adjustments.

But then I thought why not use the airconditioner condensation water conect up to the drain hose, that be nice and clean and has no impurities.

Geez I make it hard on me self.

Cheers.

Chimo
17-11-2006, 08:04 AM
Hey RAG

To make life easier maybe give the maths a miss for a while and maybe try this.

Before you do anything else open up the air flow system just before the inlet manifold and see what you have and what your dealing with.

If it looks like you can safely insert a tube or tubes into the airflow / fuel mix upstream of the inlet then if your happy proceed.

If it isnt to your liking forget it. #If you are happy to go on and you can repair the holes (short 1/8th screws probably) then go to the next stage with the cut tubes to be inserted.

When you have the tubes cut fit them as already discussed.

Run a plastic line from each one to a water source. #2 or 3 lt suspendable disposable milk or juice containers are fine and this is an economy system remember.

If you have any medical or nursing mates this is the time to call them and beg them for a couple of IV drip tubes, preferably new ones. #When you get these you will find that not only do you have great durable plastic lines but you also have a nice inline filter and a an adjustable line restrictor that you leave on the line but you do not close at all

Bachk to your question how to measure the flow as it goes in. #I never worried about this because if the tubes are in the right place with a good strong vaccuum producing air flow like a venturi tube the thing worked without a pump and with out having any metering other than the engine vaccuum.

What you do need to do is very accurately measure the water you refill the container with after traveling a measured distance.

After you hang the container under the bonnet /on the fire wall maybe in a place you can take the top off to refill easily, make two small holes in the neck to run the IV drip lines out and one more hole just below them. #This third hole is a combination air inlet and its what you fill up to, to be able to measure water usage. #Easy ! #::) #8-)

IMPORTANT # I would not change the engine timing until the water flow is set up properly. #One thing I insisted on to myself when developing this was I only do one thing at a time, check and measure and then move on to the next. #That way you don't blow things up. #

Hows your head now ;)? # #Better I hope ;D

Cheers

Chimo

PS How do you like our new threadlet name? 8-)

Chimo
17-11-2006, 08:16 AM
Hey RAG

I forgot to answer your question as I understand it. :-[

Why water injection? #(Remember that in my case this started as a competition betwen a mate and I to see who could get the best performance with economy, it was about the time of the first fuel crisis when gas was all the go; a bit like now i guess.)

Water injection. I reckon its so you can (when its working correctly) advance the engine timing to improve fuel economy without causing the engine to "ping" and b ggering it up ;)

Why a ram tube
So you can get a better air flow fuel mix (particularly in the older carby systems) and change the torque curve (lengthen the peak duration and maybe raise it)

Hope that answered it for you
Remember in all this, make sure you can retrace your steps without damage, if things dont work out!

Chimo

Roughasguts
17-11-2006, 08:33 AM
Thanks chimo, me heads better now. I always read way to much in to things and make it over complicated. Hell I should know by now that the science behind most things don't even add up.

Slight change of plan going to try the water injection on me V6 Camry well the old one, the new one still under warranty. Seeing I do a thousand kms a week in it getting to work. Keeping an eye on the water use will be easier. The Paj does 50km a month until holidays.

The threadlets good, just like all me ex girlfriends.

Chimo
17-11-2006, 09:02 AM
Hi RAG

If your doing the old Camry pull the air cleaner off and look down into the carby, I presume is got one and its not injected, if you have venturi tubes its like my old one. All I did was work out the best line and drilled straight thru thru the carby throat and into each of the venturi tubes. Shove a rag down the carby throat tube and under the drill line first and keep the drill speed low with lots of vasaline in and on the drill bit to catch the drill turnings. Us ascrew driver to coat the drill bit with more vasaline before you drill the vnt uri tube after going thru the first hole.

Then areldite the tubes into the centre of the two venturi tubes, long face up, I presume its a duel throat carby?

Does this make sense?

Chimo

Roughasguts
17-11-2006, 09:35 AM
Chimo, yep that makes sence but me camry ain't that old, she's a Multi point quad cam EFI V6 but I don't mind playing with it.

She's done 300k and I have a new replacment ready to go when it dies.
She caught fire a few months ago, then the tranny went recently I'm ready to experiment with her.
I was about to toss it when the tranny went so bought a new one. But ended up with a pretty good price for repairs, so she lives a little longer.

Don't know if I can advance the timming on it though.
If I can't, it wouldn't be worth the effort would it.

Chimo
17-11-2006, 12:00 PM
RAG

Probably not

Chimo