What's the most popular clean tech outboard?

[Kopey]

This might be interesting. ;)

[lippa]

mr fooks, is this somthing you can answer with facts?
just a thought.

regards

lippa

[Decimator]

Suzuki. The Landcruiser of the ocean !

[garpe]

With you fish guts
we should start a club.

cheer

[Decimator]

i think old mate kopey would have to be the president

[sempre]

You'll be able to tell everyone Susi in the 1st spot , but you all ready know that .

[wayneoro]

if they ever come up with electric powered oars you can jam the outboards

[Kopey]

Not too many goers for the Hondas or Tohies yet.
Maybe they need more marketing BS like that Etec ad. ;D ;D

Go the Suzis!! ;)

[Feral]

Have to be Minnkota! ;D

[Kopey]

I spose Minnkota would have to take first place for emmisions! ;D

[suzygs1000]

Oh no, Fishguts, don't tell me that! I just bought a 140 Suzy on the basis of realibility and now your knocking it! :( :(

Dave.

[Kopey]

;D ;D

[Decimator]

aha. bloody nissan drivers

[Kopey]

Nah, my boat launching buddy's a 3.0tdi Rodeo, probably have a Chev Silverado or Dodge Ram if I had the crackers to tow the boat I really want. ;)

[Kopey]

For guests so far it's Suzi 27 or 33.3%, Yami 4's 18 or 22.2%, OMC/BRP Etec/Ficht 14 or 17.2%.

Interesting to see Honda's only got 6 members or 7.4% going for them. As a clean tech outboard they've been out there for a longer time then most of these other's. #:-?

[NAGG]

Looks like Suzi owners fall into the same category as Poly owners :-? ...... need to stand up & be counted ...... A bit like South Sydney supporters ;) ....... Go the underdogs! ;D ;D ;D
NAGG .
Hondas .... these days, they are a bit like volvos ;)

[strongy]

Honda and Volvo in the same breath :o i don`t think so ;) Go the Mighty and quite and fuel efficent ....ohh and reliable hondaaaa!!!! 8-)

[NAGG]

Honda & Volvo ....... the "cardigan brigade" .......... Or as Billy Connelly would call them ..... "BEIGISTS"

[Kopey]

Even the Yamies are whipping you at the moment at your own game in the 4 strokes! ;D

[Kerry]

There's a thing called the "Californian principle" in which a wise man once stated that four strokes are only an environmental interim until two stroke technology comes of age. This trend is and will become more apparent with time.

There is nothing new or technical with 4 strokes, been that way for yonks and simplicity will control the future direction of outboards.

[Decimator]

words of wisdom people...youve heard it first

[Johnson_Jack]

Kerry,

Thats a classic that one, very well put.

Jack

[Zucchini_bros]

I'm with you Kerry, well said

[leezor]

Thats a fair enough comment Kerry, but I feel much more comfortable spending my $24,000 on technology that has been around for while. Who knows, in 5 years time we may all be on the E-tec bandwagon, only time and hours will tell. Don't get me wrong, I am into technology for a living but for me I can't afford to take the chance.

I have been shopping around for a new 225hp, looked at Evinrude, Yamaha and Honda but the 5 year unlimited hour warranty Suzuki offered did it for me. I would have gone Honda, however the Evinrude dealer up here (who also sells Honda) wouldn't even quote me on one, reckons the E-tec was the only way to go.

I was offshore last Saturday, and out of a dozen boats, 9 of them where running Suzuki's. This basically closed the deal for me.

Anyway thats my 2c, will let you know how it all goes in a few weeks when I get it.

[Kerry]

That statement came out of the U.S in the late 90's when all the buzz was about the "new" 4S outboards. And as with any "new" technology, it is time that is the ultimate judge regardless of where things ultimately end up.

In due course why would anybody build something complicated (multivalves, overhead cams, chain and belt drives and all the other "moving nasties") when there is absolutely no reason to do so? We have not yet come to this point in time, as yet, but if one was to forget any "biases" ;) and using some of the hindsight available then simplicity will win the day K.I.S.S

[capt]

[quote author=leezor link=1162473027/15#23 date=1162857869]Thats a fair enough comment Kerry, but I feel much more comfortable spending my $24,000 on technology that has been around for while. Who knows, in 5 years time we may all be on the E-tec bandwagon, only time and hours will tell. Don't get me wrong, I am into technology for a living but for me I can't afford to take the chance.

I have been shopping around for a new 225hp, looked at Evinrude, Yamaha and Honda but the 5 year unlimited hour warranty Suzuki offered did it for me. I would have gone Honda, however the Evinrude dealer up here (who also sells Honda) wouldn't even quote me on one, reckons the E-tec was the only way to go.

I was offshore last Saturday, and out of a dozen boats, 9 of them where running Suzuki's. This basically closed the deal for me.

Anyway thats my 2c, #will let you know how it all goes in a few weeks when I get it.


[/quote

Leezor , yeah it's hard making a decision when there are so many conflicting sources of information . Did you go for the OMC or the SUZI ? :-/ It's a pity that your first thoughts re the HONDA were not supported by that dealer who suggested the E-TEC. Most are driven by profit and I reckon OMC would be doing some good deals to get them out there .
I'm into my second HONDA and over 100 s of hours never had a problem. The 5 year warranty gives me a comfortable feeling ...... :) I guess you could say they have stood the test of time. There's an old saying out there " you get what you pay for" , and it's true in many ways........ anyway , best of luck in the future with what ever Donk ends up on the back of your boat !!!! Cheers Jimmy ;)

[leezor]

Thanks Jimmy, Honda seem to be a hard sell up here as both dealers tend to push their other product. The dealer who sells Evinrude also sells Honda but pushes E-tec and the Dealer who sells Suzuki also sells Honda but pushes Suzuki, if that makes sense :-?

My old man has a 4st Honda and loves it, but I didn't get many positive vibes from both local Honda dealers so I have ended up going with the Suzuki.

Cheers,

[capt]

Thanks Jimmy, Honda seem to be a hard sell up here as both dealers tend to push their other product. The dealer who sells Evinrude also sells Honda but pushes E-tec and the Dealer who sells Suzuki also sells Honda but pushes Suzuki, if that makes sense #:-?

My old man has a 4st Honda and loves it, but I didn't get many positive vibes from both local Honda dealers so I have ended up going with the Suzuki.

Cheers,
Sorry to hear Honda's not specializing in your area Leezor, where are you? Pleased to hear your old man is in" love " though...... Cheers JIMMY

[gif]

Lippa # asked the question of me earlier.

• OEDA 3 Star are the lowest emission motors available.

• All 4 strokes #( except for one 2.5hp model) #are 3 Star.

• All E-TEC ‘s are 3 Star as well.

• All the other DI 2 strokes are 2 Star.


As for Ficht #- these are no longer sold so I don’t know the rating #- but can get it if someone is desperate. # My guess would be 2 Star.

So I would not have used teh same categories as used in this poll - mixing up 2 and 3 star engines.

I want to avoid “fights’ # amongst the 3 star category. # _ they are all very good. # #Their emissions are under 30, # many under 20 #(HC +NOx #g/kw/hr)

Compare that to the Carby 2 strokes #- rated 120 #to 600 #!


Hope this helps

Gary

PS #- I am happy to help any individual with the actual data if you are shopping for a motor. #But the whole database is 12 pages of A3 paper #- I just printed it out this morning. #

[leezor]

Jimmy, I am in Townsville.

[disorderly]

# Kopey,if I were you I'd be asking for a payrise!!!.It seems your Suzuki marketing campaign in Townsville is working quite nicely.

[Decimator]

i heard on the grapevine that the illegal fishing boats are going to start using suzuki 4 strokes...

[Kopey]

I reckon it should of been illegal to release an new engine which hadn't undergone enough testing, that blew up, was unreliable and put people's live at risk out at sea! ;D ;D Thank god they went broke. ;D ;D

[saurian]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

[NAGG]

Went through the pain recently of picking my motor & technology (with an open mind). "THE KISS" approach made sense to me (2 stroke technology) however the newer ETECs are still unproven ..... & there was no real price advantage other than service intervals (service cost)
The 4 stokes still seemed to have a slight edge for quietness & less vibration but lacked the hole shot of the ETECs ...... from a couple of runs that I did
In the end .... I went 60 Yammi EFI 4 stroke based on what I saw & heard (reputation) + my intended use ....... Only time will tell if the choice was right
NAGG

[Kopey]

Nothing wrong with the Yamie Nagg. If you ask me the 60 EFI Yamie 4 stroker is probably the best 60 hp you can get at the moment, and that's coming from the Suzi man. ;)

[Kopey]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

He wanted to PM me and call me a D---Head ages ago so a bit of friendly payback. ;D ;D ;D

[leezor]

I would have thought the Etec would have been considerably cheaper than the same size 4 stroke, but I was quoted more for a 200hp Etec than a 225hp 4 Stroke.
Would have thought the fact they have so fewer parts they would be cheaper to purchase?

[Kopey]

Must'n be assembled in Mexico. ;D ;D

Someones gotta pay for that marketing campaign, the legals for trying to rubbish Yamaha in the process, and the Etecs that are still under warranty i.e: Waykel's 200 Etec "Had one blow up on me, but wouldn't have anything else on." ;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

He wanted to PM me and call me a D---Head ages ago so a bit of friendly payback. #;D ;D ;D

Yep and I havent changed my opinion either ::)

Just to clear things up saurian, I don't see the need to feed some peoples ego's in this post :-X

Garry

PS fire away ::)

[Kopey]

No, just about every other thread here though. #;D ;)

Now now Garry, no need to get all bitter. #;D

[saurian]

I just love it .....

[saurian]

I mean come on how do we know kopey hasn't polled suzuki's 50 odd times and garry is about to start polling Honda the same.
Fun but ,

[brettski3]

i love my yammy, and the cheaper option( suzuki) nearly sold me until i thought about the yammy history not just australia but worldwide, both the etec and suzuki have not stood the test of time and resale may be lower, cant work out why the etec are dearer and the fact that the suzuki are the cheaper option speaks for itself. second choice suzi, but i cant believe the fuel economy and smoothness of the fours, i now use half the fuel i did with my old two stroke without the use of any 2 stroke oil hassle, i fish and dont ski so the fours are unbeatable in my eyes.

just my 2 cents

[Kopey]

I mean come on how do we know kopey hasn't polled suzuki's 50 odd times and garry is about to start polling Honda the same.
Fun but ,

As you can only vote once, don't worry I'm sure Garry would have knocked it up if he could the way Suzuki have knocked the cr@p out of their sales. I'm just a technician so that wouldn't nearly affect me as much as Garry. #;D ;D ;D

[lippa]

I mean come on how do we know kopey hasn't polled suzuki's 50 odd times and garry is about to start polling Honda the same.
Fun but ,

As you can only vote once, don't worry I'm sure Garry would have knocked it up if he could the way Suzuki have knocked the cr@p out of their sales. I'm just a technician so that wouldn't nearly affect me as much as Garry. #;D ;D ;D


so when the haines family has got the shits and don't want to be bothered with "their" extended 2 year warranty, or pull out of suzuki all together, where's the mug punter who invested his hard earned gunna stand??????? wher's the old mate that bought his 5 yr old zook 4banger (2nd hand) gunna get parts, when suzi does another dispearing act?????? time will only tell.............

cheers

me


ps i own & love my heap of shit merc 2 banger

[Spaniard_King]

I mean come on how do we know kopey hasn't polled suzuki's 50 odd times and garry is about to start polling Honda the same.
Fun but ,

As you can only vote once, don't worry I'm sure Garry would have knocked it up if he could the way Suzuki have knocked the cr@p out of their sales. I'm just a technician so that wouldn't nearly affect me as much as Garry. #;D ;D ;D

Sorry Kopey but I have never worked in a dealership so I know nothing about sales, your on your own there. Sales mean nuthing to me. Seems to be an Ego thing for you tho ::)

Garry

[Kopey]

Suzuki seem to be good enough Lippa to give every V6 Zuk owner a new ECM under warranty no questions asked even though there seemed to be nothing wrong with them.

By Australian law if you say it comes with a 5 year warranty that's what you get or so I thought. This trying to play down Suzuki warranty doesn't really work for me especially when we get $45 an hour to do our warranty work and Honda places only get $30 an hour for their warranty work, or so my old boss used to whinge.

[Spaniard_King]

Suzuki seem to be good enough Lippa to give every V6 Zuk owner a new ECM under warranty no questions asked even though there seemed to be nothing wrong with them.

By Australian law if you say it comes with a 5 year warranty that's what you get or so I thought. This trying to play down Suzuki warranty doesn't really work for me especially when we get $45 an hour to do our warranty work and Honda places only get $30 an hour for their warranty work, or so my old boss used to whinge.


Seems you are outta date... Honda pays way more than your $45 now

Garry

[Kerry]

Any of the INDEPENDENT service people actually have unbiased answers for this but unfortuneately there is not many of these good guys left anymore.

These guys don't have to stomp the company path and actually tell it how it is without bleeding and if there is one still left in your area then ask them, they do actually know, as funny how this might seem to some ;)

[Kopey]

I rent the shed next to Martin Marine which is where I get my new Suzuki work from and also do my own work from outside which I say would make me INDEPENDENT from a dealer.

I actually make more money per hour doing my own work i.e: repowering Greg's 25ft Bertram with 2 x 200 Ficht Ram's or fixing Pedro's Tohatsu 50 TLDI or Servicing Vic Hislop's old sharking boat 28ft Cougar with 2 x 200 Optimaxes etc.

I like an engine if it's good and proves it's self in the field, has good power to weight, etc. I think some people just have to get over other people's opinion on what brand of outboard they go for.

[flotsom]

i try and stay away from these chatsites because of tension between good people but some are so poorly informed, i have read this thread and would like to raise a couple of points. i am a honda nut, reason why? i have 2 honda dirt bikes, a new honda road bike and also a Z50 collectors bike. i also am a boating nut and have a honda outboard.

1. honda 5 year warranty is factory backed for 5 years, this warranty is as good on the last day as the first. you do not have to prove service history and transfer is free.... thats right, free, suzuki have a fee for transfer and inspection required, this is black and white in there 5 year warranty policy!!!! i have read this.

2. suzuki 5 year warranty is 3 years suzuki and 2 years haines signature, this means that in the last 2 years you are soley relying on haines being in buisness under that name, if suzuki where to come back to aus and take over why would haines whant to warrant 2 years of a motor they no longer support???? please rest assure that suzuki have been in and out of australia 2 times in the past and have pulled out both times, is this 3 times lucky???

3. warranty, well where do we start........ what would you feel more happy with, honda being set up in australia for how many years???? not sufre my self either, suzuki have been set up in australia how many years??? not long!!!

Honda pays the market leading warranty rate of $61.60 / hr and has a full service team to back it up in melbourne, and would you think they would want upset owners?? with all the bikes, power equipment, cars etc etc they sell every year???

this is all fact, not made up.

do as you will guys.

[Kopey]

No where here have I ever said Honda is a sh*t engine if anything I have only had praise as they were the first to recognise the potential in making a full range 4 stroke outboards. Not long did everyone follow suit and just look at the awesome range of engines we have to choose from now.

The other outboard manufacturers had an advantage of already being able to see what competion they were up against and so had the advantage of making outboards superior or at least equivalent to what Honda had already released. They are still a force to be reckoned with, there's already word on the grapevine of the new release of a long awaited EFI 90 4 stroke to be released.

Their VTEC variable lift cam design is also an ingenious design aswell, being able to switch to a higher lift cam by interlocking rocker so they can breathe better at higher rev's, the variable cam timing in the Suzis does as good a job though as the difference is present right through the rev range. Things like multi stage air induction are common between the 2 aswell. Off set driveshaft really gives the Suzis a big advantage over the rest. Power to weight's a biggy too, the DF140 at 186kgs, or the DF175 at 211kgs aswell as displacing 2.9 litres, or more recently the DF300 a 4 litre weighing only 279kgs!! more than 1 hp per kgs!

I can't see why a good company like Haines wouldn't honour the full 5 years either. If anyone can give me a good reason how all of a sudden Haines could fold give it to me, they make some of Australia's finest boats and have a solid reputation.

End of the day it's up to us what we like and what we want. Who give a rats what colour it's painted, as long as it stands up to the test and doesn't give the owner greif now and in years to come, thats what counts. #;)

[Decimator]

i must agree with all of you guys thou...i must admit.....suzuki's are a great piece of machinery. well done suzuki

[Gilbert-McDowell]

I have a Suzuki 30hp on my 4m tender and its a mighty little engine and has been since I bought it brand new in 2002. Ive done around 350 hrs and it hasnt missed a beat. Ive never had to make a warranty claim like I did with a previous engine, and that company ( Honda ) gave me all sorts of bother that I dont care to go into here. On the other hand my cousin Rory who has just moved to Australia is absolutely chomping at the bit to get around to our Suzuki dealer and get a couple of 140hp 4 strokes fitted to a 6.5m Kevlacat 2400 we have just purchased.

Suzuki has won me over, through and through. I cant fault them, what more could you want. I look around the Marina and I see an ever increasing number of big black Suzuki motors tilted up on transoms of boats. Seems to me they are the choice of a modern fisherman / boater who has reliability and practicality in mind.

Gilly

[capt]

Hey FLOTSOM, you have really set the record straight here, and put forward some valuable information ..... I do depict KOPEY is now eating a bit of "crow" ;D ;D ;D Cheers Jimmy

[Kerry]

of big black Suzuki motors tilted up on transoms of #boats.

So is this an "engine" debate (top half as such) or an overall thing?

What you should try and tell these people with these big black suzuki motors tilted up on transoms is to tilt them down as when tilted half the geracase will be dry and suzuki gearcases are almost impossible to get apart. Suzuki gearcases are reknown for this but any outboard no matter what the technology should never be stored tilted.

If anybody could get hold of a good supply of suzuki gearcases you would make a packet. #

[leezor]

A bloke from work just spotted a Suzuki outboard brochure on my desk as I am currently looking at repowering, he dissapeared for a second and came back with an Evinrude E-Tec DVD which he said "You gotta watch this"
Anyway, just watched it for the first time and must say I am impressed. (Some of the babes in the DVD looked tidy aswell #;) )
Pity they didn't compare the E-Tec to the Suzuki four strokes, but I would assume the Suzuki would be similar in performance to the 4 stroke Yamahas?

[Decimator]

whatever kerry...

[Kerry]

whatever kerry...

Please go on ::) if you have anything intelligent to offer? Always interested in anbody who can't handle the facts ;D

[Decimator]

have got 320 hours on a pair of twin 250 suzukis. always tilted up. always fully serviced. #have had no problems at all with them being tilted and a gear case being half dry. your a know it all. piss off

[saurian]

Fish guts , unreal , I'll give you my 1% anyday.
Ta.

[Luke_Groen]

I agree fish guts, We've got a DF250 with 230h on it and never had a problem of any sort. What kind of suzuki do you have kerry?

[Decimator]

i think hes got a pentium 486 suzuki.

[Kopey]

;D ;D #Good one guys, don't take any sh*t from this c@ckhe@d! Just some more of his typical unsubstantiated BS.

[garpe]

Got to agree with the last lot of posts, there are some w-nkers who probably get sick of Suzi's passing them all the time. As far as the gearcases go old mate should get himself a supply to put in his shed and wait to go broke. i love the pentium line.
cheers

[Gilbert-McDowell]

of big black Suzuki motors tilted up on transoms of boats.

So is this an "engine" debate (top half as such) or an overall thing?

What you should try and tell these people with these big black suzuki motors tilted up on transoms is to tilt them down as when tilted half the geracase will be dry and suzuki gearcases are almost impossible to get apart. Suzuki gearcases are reknown for this but any outboard no matter what the technology should never be stored tilted.

If anybody could get hold of a good supply of suzuki gearcases you would make a packet.


What do you suggest Kerry ? should those owners leave thier valuable motors tilted down into the water or is it best practice to tilt your motor up when parked up in the marina ?

All outboards are tilted up on the transom whilst the vessel is parked.

I notice you seem to have left the start of my sentence out, to quote myself it reads -

I look around the Marina and I see an ever increasing number of big black Suzuki motors tilted up on the transoms of boats.

Gilly

[Kerry]

In a marina it is definately a catch 22 situation and then one could also argue the fact that outboards (I/O's) on moored boats are a complete pain in the ar$e no matter what the make but some don't like it more than others.

If one is going to spend hard earned bucks to sit in a marina then the air-dock type option as far as I'm concerned is a well worth investment. Can't afford an air-dock then might be time to re-contemplate the options.

If you've ever pulled a gearcase it's not all that difficult to see the difference between a motor stored upright and one that's been tilted for long periods. When fully tilted the oil is simply not where it usually is.

Regards, Kerry.

[Decimator]

i know the solution kerry. why dont u back your falcon with ur gooseneck, down the ramp, and tow out my 35ft cat so i dont have to tilt the outboards up . should pull it up the ramp ok ? falcons are good for towing 6 tonne arent they ?

[Ron173]

G'Day all,

I'll opt to stay out of the particular manufacturer debate, ....

but on the outboard storage position, I've always been told to store down.

I've always tilted mine down, as it lets all water run out, I believe this is the best option for boats NOT permanently moored.

I guess if I was moored, up is better than permanently in salt water.

Rgds

Ron

[saurian]

I'd like to see that , falcoon blowing bubbles for a short period of time....

[dave22]

Suzuki Introduces New Five Year Warranty!
Suzuki Marine, world leader in 4-stroke outboard technology recently announced the introduction of their new five year Australian domestic warranty.
The new warranty is backed by The Haines Group, distributors of Suzuki outboards. The 100% Australian owned and operated family company have been in the marine industry longer than any other outboard distributor in Australia.

General Manager of Haines Suzuki Marine, Greg Haines stated that the decision to introduce a five year warranty was a reflection of the company’s level of commitment towards the product and their customers.

“We understand that consumers today are demanding not only the best product, but a higher level of after sales support,” said Greg.

The unprecedented five year warranty covers the entire range of fuel injected 4-strokes 40hp to 250hp sold in Australia only. A 12 month warranty still applies to commercial applications.

Suzuki’s proven reliability, superior performance and outstanding fuel efficiency has led to numerous organizations such as voluntary marine rescue, water police, boat licensing centers and commercial fishing charters opting for Suzuki as their power of choice.

“The testimonials from these high profile organizations has provided further credibility to the brand and has greatly contributed towards Suzuki’s success,” commented Greg.



Silly question maybe, but it dos'nt say if existing owners with 3 year warranties are going to get another 2 years. I know there are people on this site with Suzukis so maybe they could shed some light.

[Kerry]

....I've always been told to store down.....I've always tilted mine down, as it lets all water run out, I believe this is the best option for boats NOT permanently moored....

I guess if I was moored, up is better than permanently in salt water.

Agree for sure it is the lesser of the 2 evils.

I simply think a moored boat with outboard/s is a bad choice to begin with.

Regards, Kerry.

[Kerry]

....have been in the marine industry longer than any other outboard distributor in Australia....

Just luv PR at work ::)

[leezor]

Dave, with regards to your question about 2 year extended warranty, I was talking to a Suzi dealer on Monday who quoted me on a 2006 225hp model he had in stock. When I questioned him about the extended warranty he mad a phone call quoting the serial number and was given the thumbs up for the extra warranty.
I got the impression that the extended warranty only covers new orders and new engines the dealers have in stock.

[Kerry]

So is there any difference between a motor on the floor and one sold last month (before new warranty introduction)? Bit of a bumma :P

[Spaniard_King]

So is there any difference between a motor on the floor and one sold last month (before new warranty introduction)? Bit of a bumma #:P

Kerry, I think you will find the ones on the floor still belong to the distributor/manufacturer therefore attract any changes to warranty etc

Garry

[JB]

i know the solution kerry. why dont u back your #falcon with ur gooseneck, down the ramp, and tow out my 35ft cat #so i dont have to tilt the outboards up . should pull it up the ramp ok ? falcons are good for towing 6 tonne arent they ?


LMFAO.#

[blaze]

warranty issue, funny thing
had a 94 falcon ute and it done a cam at 70000km, Now I purchased second hand so in tassie commercials come with no warranty. The parts the ford dealership were fitting come with a ford lifetime warranty. So I gets on the phone to ford aust and asked them why the parts they put in the original engine were inferior to the parts they are now fitting with life time warrenty. Pursued this with ford aust engineering/service department to the head of department in australia, in one of the many heated debates I had with the many people I spoke I asked a lass wether I could speak to her manager as she seemed to have no idea, She spat the dummy as I had finally got to someone that was as hire as possible. Long story short. The job was done by ford under warrenty at no cost to me.
damm, whats that got to do with this thread?
cheers
blaze

[Fisher_Boats]

The Suzuki warranty is 5 years on K6 & K7 engines sold from July onwards this year. :)

Hi Blaze ;)

Cheers Col

[garpe]

A mate of mine was having his haines formula rebuilt and bought a suzi 250 which sat in the shop for 14 months payed for, before fitting as the boat took awhile. When he enquired about warranty the bloke that sold and fitted the motor said warranty didn't start until it was on the boat. Good enough service and coverage for me say no more. Five years.up the suzi's
Peter

[dave22]

Posted this on another site a while back. It seems to me the first Suzuki owners were guinea

pigs and I don't see why there warranty should not be extended also.

Maybe its just me :-?


NEWS
26/07/2006 Suzuki Introduces New Five Year Warranty!

I wonder if your covered ? This is off there website.

To my knoledge,( correct me if i'm wrong but a 03 df140 for eg is the

same as an 06 df140, no major changes ) so I can't see why the

warranty would not extend to engines bought prior to 26. 07. 06 as in

the above case. Also it says ,

The unprecedented five year warranty covers the entire range of fuel

injected 4-strokes 40hp to 250hp sold in Australia only.

No mention of when it starts or finishes, just that it covers all engines 40

to 250hp sold in Australia, so by the way I read it anyone who has got a

Suzuki 4 Stoke in the 40-250 hp has got an extra 2 year warranty,

regardless of when you bought it.

[Kerry]

One could probably understand if from 26/7/06 they were a totally new model.

How would you feel having brought one (and fitted to said boat) the month before, Bumma >:(

Sounds a little discriminatory? Who knows maybe sales are down :D

[Chimo]

Col _s

Could you please tell me what is a K6 and K7 engine? Thanks

Cheers

Chimo

[Sportfish_5]

Chimo

Just the zuke serial number code for either 2006 and 2007 models (K6 and K7)


Seems all the players are doing the 5/6 year warranty except Yammie and BRP. I read on the Merc web site that BRP handle their warranties through a third party company - anyone with an etec confirm that ?

[bubble]

BRP offer a Three year factory backed non-declining warranty, not through a third party.

Cheers.

[Sportfish_5]

Are you sure ?? Factory backed can mean many things.

I am sure it says BRP in the handbook but I read it is actually handled via another firm. Most warranty systems are just based around an accrual % from sales revenue that is put away in some war chest within the product line. I dont see anything wrong with them outsourcing btw.

[Ron173]

Greg,

From my experience with dealer whom I know well, that 3rd party BRP thing is a rumour.

Put it this way any claims from him go thru BRP in Sydney, they send parts, he does work, they pay him.

Ron

[lippa]

is the last 2 years on suzuki warranty, backed by haines, equivelent to the manufactuers warrany?

? for kopey, is the haines group going to pay you the same rate as suzuki in the final 2 years also, for warranty work? what do suzuki pay p/hr?

cheers

lippa

[Kopey]

As far as I know they are.

So is the F.R.T (Flat Rate Times) still the same on the Honda warranties, i.e: only 8.5 hours to fully strip and pull off the old BF115/130 blocks (that used to crack cylinder heads from restricted water jackets on exhaust side, did 6 at the old dealership) clean up sealing surfaces of sandwich plate and parts, redress the new long block with flywheel, starter, electrics etc and reassemble?

[Spaniard_King]

As far as I know they are.

So is the F.R.T (Flat Rate Times) still the same on the Honda warranties, i.e: only 8.5 hours to fully strip and pull off the old BF115/130 blocks (that used to crack cylinder heads from restricted water jackets on exhaust side, did 6 at the old dealership) clean up sealing surfaces of sandwich plate and parts, redress the new long block with flywheel, starter, electrics etc and reassemble?


Kopey,

You should stick to what you know not what you did know!

Honda reviewed there FRT and labor rates back in May 2005 and as posted before is the industry leader in this area. Do you think it's fair to be having a go at a Company such as Honda.. LIKE YOU HAVE DONE in publishing what is normally held "in confidence" ie FRT's etc

I think this one may land in the lap of the right person!

Garry

[saurian]

I suppose frt rates or whatever should be kept within,
but did that get the bite or just the truth about 115/130 cracking heads ?
Ta

[Spaniard_King]

Suarian,

It didn't take Kopey to bring to light the BF115/130 cracking heads. It has been well documented. But what isnt well documented is that what ever honda 115/130 that develops this problem will be rectified by honda at hondas expense ie warranty.

Can't see any other manufacturer giving a warranty as good as that.. can you ::)

And you are right it's nobodies buisness except the dealer and the manufacturer what FRT is paid

Garry

[saurian]

I saw honda engineers , come to inspect 115/130 problems .
Especially in northern commercial applications.
Thus they redesigned cooling galleries or some thing.
FRT thingies , well thats just business.
Ta

[Spaniard_King]

Saurian,

yes they did first appear up north. They have a new block and head that came out in 2002 which had several water deflector upgrade to manage the cooling process a lot better

Garry

[lippa]

frt times------ ya take the good with the bad, and ya pick up on the strait what ya loose on the merry-go round.

cheers

lippa

i work on cars kopey not outboards, but i have a good understanding on these arrangements

[Kopey]

As far as I know they are.

So is the F.R.T (Flat Rate Times) still the same on the Honda warranties, i.e: only 8.5 hours to fully strip and pull off the old BF115/130 blocks (that used to crack cylinder heads from restricted water jackets on exhaust side, did 6 at the old dealership) clean up sealing surfaces of sandwich plate and parts, redress the new long block with flywheel, starter, electrics etc and reassemble?


Kopey,

You should stick to what you know not what you did know!

Honda reviewed there FRT and labor rates back in May 2005 and as posted before is the industry leader in this area. Do you think it's fair to be having a go at a Company such as Honda.. LIKE YOU HAVE DONE in publishing what is normally held "in confidence" ie FRT's etc

I think this one may land in the lap of the right person!

Garry


Well everybody seemed to be talking about warranties so I just put down an example that sprung to mind and was interested if they did do a review, thanks for filling me in. Not having a go at the company, I reckon they make some great motors. The new 75/90 EFI's sound interesting.

I didn't think it would be an issue here, everytime Ford or Holden or Mitsubishi for that matter seem to have a bit of a blue you seem to hear about it all over the news, why would it be any different here? Please fill me in, I'll modify the post straight away if that's a problem.

As some engine manufacturer's found I spose, you can't just take a car engine that was designed for a closed cooling system and then put salt water through it without making some design changes, or at least not all the time anyway.

Do they still sell many of these BF115/130's? i.e motor weighs 225kgs for 115/130 hp output.

[Spaniard_King]

yep..heaps

[Kerry]

Don't make too many fo those DFI140's either, anybody know that story?

[Kopey]

What, did I hear something? ;D

[Sportfish_5]

Suarian,

But what isnt well documented is that what ever honda 115/130 that develops this problem will be rectified by honda at hondas expense ie warranty.
Can't see any other manufacturer giving a warranty as good as that.. can you ::)



Gary - I dont think Honda or any other manufacturer would really have an option but to fix this issue under warranty or they would have a class action on their doorstep ::)

It's good that they are doing the right thing but if the fault occurs through design they would be just cutting off their noses if they didn't if they want to survive in the competitive market they are in.

Correct me if I am wrong but all outboard manufactures I think would handle the warranty process no different to how we handle our warranty process for underground mining equipment ie most warranty decisions are made and handled by the local distributor (Honda Australia, HMG etc) first from a provision pool from local unit sale revenue (Dist to customer sale). More than likely the bigger problems such as the heads etc would be hammered straight back on the factory for assistance.

Our warranty policy is very strict with terms and conditions and if claims are not processed correctly the dealer or customer will wear the costs when warranty is rejected. BUT logic always prevails and "Policy" decisions often smooth customer relationships to develop the future business.


Good to see warranty is always a touchy subject whether on the water, road or underground.

You guys are lucky to get labour costs - we dont :-X :-X

[Spaniard_King]

It's good that they are doing the right thing but if the fault occurs through design they would be just cutting off their noses if they didn't if they want to survive in the competitive market they are in.



So tell me Greg and I am not having a go at you. Do you think that there are any outboards in use without design faults??

Garry

[Gilbert-McDowell]

In a marina it is definately a catch 22 situation and then one could also argue the fact that outboards (I/O's) on moored boats are a complete pain in the ar$e no matter what the make but some don't like it more than others.

If one is going to spend hard earned bucks to sit in a marina then the air-dock type option as far as I'm concerned is a well worth investment. Can't afford an air-dock then might be time to re-contemplate the options.

If you've ever pulled a gearcase it's not all that difficult to see the difference between a motor stored upright and one that's been tilted for long periods. When fully tilted the oil is simply not where it usually is.

Regards, Kerry.



My own boat is a Kevlacat 4600 Ocean Trek with twin 350hp Cummins diesels and my question to you is -

Is there an air dock made that is suitable and able to lift my Kevlacat ? I am not aware of one being available anywhere in Australia.

My understanding is that high performance lubricants are available which have a composition that is conducive to coating and holding on all surfaces. These types of oils would reduce any parts inside a gearbox being dry even through some extended periods of storage without use. Another simple measure to ensure sufficient lubrication is simply to use the motor on a regular basis. Also Im led to believe that if your mechanic is any good they will have ensured that whilst servicing your motor they will have applied sufficient lubrication to any bolts, pins or surfaces they remove or separate which ensures ease of removal at any time there after.

Saltwater is one of the harshest environments for a lot of materials and therefore it is expected to encounter a higher degree of difficulty in undoing or separating any surfaces that have been subject to such a harsh environment and also that any material simply deteriorates at a faster rate. I dont see why or how anyone can complain of the nature of saltwater as it is a given known fact of its qualities and capabilities.

Gilly

[Sportfish_5]

Gary - how would I know I am in the mining equipment business not outboards :-? I do know when my competitors are having issues as do they.

They are just bits of engineering and undoubtedly they would have faults but if those design faults caused repeat catastrophic failures then they would soon become public/industry knowledge in forums such as this and not swept under the carpet. All manufactures reserve the right to modify and refine their products without providing free updates to previous customers.


I am not bagging Honda Garry so dont take it personally - Our factory in Finland years ago had a sub-contracting machine shop supply components for one of our hydraulic drifters out of the specified machining tolerances - ended up being their factory had an air conditioning fault at their CNC facililty which put the base temp out on the components. - Sh!t hapens

[Spaniard_King]

I know where your coming from Greg,

my point being there are a lot of faults that are swept under the carpet and some dont arise until after the warranty period and in most cases they are called bad luck. All manufacturers have had them and let them go even the black ones ;D ;D ;D

Garry

[Kopey]

Do they still sell many of these BF115/130's? i.e motor weighs 225kgs for 115/130 hp output.


yep..heaps

Especially when Suzuki come out with the DF140 weighing only 186kgs. #;D #No fuel pump, or cylinderhead issues to date with it either. #;D ;D ;D No issues with the DF140 at all in fact. ;D ;D



my point being there are a lot of faults that are swept under the carpet and some dont arise until after the warranty period and in most cases they are called bad luck. All manufacturers have had them and let them go even the black ones ;D ;D ;D

[Kerry]

My own boat is a Kevlacat 4600 Ocean Trek with twin 350hp Cummins diesels and my question to you is -

Is there an air dock made that is suitable and able to lift my Kevlacat ? I am not aware of one being available anywhere in Australia.

Gilly

Gil, Sounds like a boat Jack built ;) You don't mention if you are shafts or I/O's? Have you actually talked to air-dock people as it's not that are an off the shelf item? One good thing with Cats is that air-docks/lifts aren't as complicated as mono's. How much different would a 4600 SC (300HP plus? from memory on I/O's) be compared to the Ocean Trek as if they can make one for 4600SC then can't see why they couldn't make you one?


With regard the lubrication bit, nuts and bolts etc should never be a problem as long as one basically go through every nut and bolt on a new engine that manufacturers have a bad habit of not greasing. However there are areas that are not what might be called general service areas but the principle is basically the same with all manufacturers with things like gaskets (heads, water jackets etc etc) are replaced as a matter of course every 10 years or so, regardless.

Yes the basic principle with outboards is use them or loose them.


Regards, Kerry.

[Kerry]

Gary, Over the years there's been a heap of "design" changes by just about everybody and generally everybody acts dumb.

Changed out a gearcase last week which asks the question why replacements are nothing like the original?

But yes no manufacturer wants to admit it but they've all been there and done that. # #

Regards, Kerry.

[Gilbert-McDowell]

My own boat is a Kevlacat 4600 Ocean Trek with twin 350hp Cummins diesels and my question to you is -

Is there an air dock made that is suitable and able to lift my Kevlacat ? I am not aware of one being available anywhere in Australia.

Gilly

Gil, Sounds like a boat Jack built ;) You don't mention if you are shafts or I/O's? Have you actually talked to air-dock people as it's not that are an off the shelf item? One good thing with Cats is that air-docks/lifts aren't as complicated as mono's. How much different would a 4600 SC (300HP plus? from memory on I/O's) be compared to the Ocean Trek as if they can make one for 4600SC then can't see why they couldn't make you one?


With regard the lubrication bit, nuts and bolts etc should never be a problem as long as one basically go through every nut and bolt on a new engine that manufacturers have a bad habit of not greasing. However there are areas that are not what might be called general service areas but the principle is basically the same with all manufacturers with things like gaskets (heads, water jackets etc etc) are replaced as a matter of course every 10 years or so, regardless.

Yes the basic principle with outboards is use them or loose them.


Regards, Kerry.




I am not familiar with the term or rather abbreviation that I have highlighted in bold, I/O ?

Does this refer to Inboard / Outboard ?

Gilly

[Spaniard_King]

Do they still sell many of these BF115/130's? i.e motor weighs 225kgs for 115/130 hp output.


yep..heaps

Especially when Suzuki come out with the DF140 weighing only 186kgs. #;D #No fuel pump, or cylinderhead issues to date with it either. #;D ;D ;D #No issues with the DF140 at all in fact. #;D ;D



my point being there are a lot of faults that are swept under the carpet and some dont arise until after the warranty period and in most cases they are called bad luck. All manufacturers have had them and let them go even the black ones ;D ;D ;D





Well They would want to have got it right after Honda had done all the hard work for them, they would look silly otherwise hey ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Kopey, why did suzi have to change the gear box ratio's on there entire range of dual g/box engines :P I herd it was cause they were under performing??

[Spaniard_King]

Not too many goers for the Hondas or Tohies yet.
Maybe they need more marketing BS like that Etec ad. #;D ;D
#;)

Or they could flood the market with cheap engines like the suzis hey

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

He wanted to PM me and call me a D---Head ages ago so a bit of friendly payback. #;D ;D ;D

I wonder if we had a poll about my said remark above how that would turn out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

maybe you could start it Kopey, your right into polls arnt you.. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Kopey]

Do they still sell many of these BF115/130's? i.e motor weighs 225kgs for 115/130 hp output.


yep..heaps

Especially when Suzuki come out with the DF140 weighing only 186kgs. #;D #No fuel pump, or cylinderhead issues to date with it either. #;D ;D ;D #No issues with the DF140 at all in fact. #;D ;D



my point being there are a lot of faults that are swept under the carpet and some dont arise until after the warranty period and in most cases they are called bad luck. All manufacturers have had them and let them go even the black ones ;D ;D ;D





Well They would want to have got it right after Honda had done all the hard work for them, they would look silly otherwise hey # # ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Kopey, why did suzi have to change the gear box ratio's on there entire range of dual g/box engines :P #I herd it was cause they were under performing??




Honda had done all the hard work for them??? ;D ;D ;D Actually, Suzuki aren't lazy like Honda and just go plonk some car engine on in side all the time like Honda. Bar the DF60/70 none of the Suzi 4 stroke range have any componentry based from a car, they are all designed from the ground up proper SUZUKI designed marine engines. ;D ;D

Don't really get this d/box engines remark??? :-? ;D ;D Sour grapes or something is it?? ;D ;D ;D The only gear box ratios that are being changed are the DF140/115/90 and that's just so you can have counter rotation available in all models. That's not a warranty issue like fuel pumps sh*tting themselves or cracked cylinderheads like one of it's other competitors. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 225kgs 130hp....Real performer ;D ;D ;D, give me a 186kgs Suzi 140 anyday ;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

He wanted to PM me and call me a D---Head ages ago so a bit of friendly payback. #;D ;D ;D

I wonder if we had a poll about my said remark above how that would turn out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

maybe you could start it Kopey, your right into polls arnt you.. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA


maybe you should look into the gear box ratio thing a bit further Kopey, they may have snuk one in on you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kopey]

Just to clear things up saurian, I don't see the need to feed some peoples ego's in this post :-X

Can't see gearbox ratios being more serious than faulty fuel pumps or cracked heads. ;D ;D Maybe this is just all an ego thing for you! ;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey , no wonder spaniard won't talk.
2x 140 strokers if lotto comes my way this weekend.

He wanted to PM me and call me a D---Head ages ago so a bit of friendly payback. #;D ;D ;D

I wonder if we had a poll about my said remark above how that would turn out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

maybe you could start it Kopey, your right into polls arnt you.. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA


maybe you should look into the gear box ratio thing a bit further Kopey, they may have snuk one in on you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I have adressed those issues Kopey, looks like your avoiding the SUSI gear box issue. I though a Suzi man like you would be in the know.. apparently not ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

Better watch out Kopey, looks like those Etec's and ficht's are catchin up to your SUSI'S ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Mercury/Mariner Fourstrokes/Verados 7 (5.1%)Yamaha Fourstrokes 29 (21.3%)Suzuki Fourstrokes 41 (30.1%)Honda Fourstrokes 13 (9.5%)Evinrude Etec/Ficht 32 (23.5%)Mercury/Mariner Optimax 5 (3.6%)Yamaha HPDI 4 (2.9%)Tohatsu TLDI or Fourstrokes 5 (3.6%)

[Spaniard_King]

Dam,, look another Etec vote since I posted ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kerry]

Gill,

I/O yes Inboard/Outboard, Sterndrive. Wuold have thought an Ocean Trek would have shafts? The last one I saw was before KC crashed in 1994 and I don't recall the power at all.

Has there been many of them made in recent times? The mould used to sit down the back and that's about all it was doing anytime I saw it.

Regards, Kerry.
#

[Kopey]

I have adressed those issues Kopey, looks like your avoiding the SUSI gear box issue. I though a Suzi man like you would be in the know.. apparently not #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


What Suzi gearbox issue would that be Garry???? Enlighten us all! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D #

]
Just to clear things up saurian, I don't see the need to feed some peoples ego's in this post :-X

Now now Garry no need to get all flustered. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kopey]

Dam,, look another Etec vote since I posted #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So there's nearly 3 times more Etecs and Fichts than Hondas, boy Garry that must be really saying something! ;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

What Suzi gearbox issue would that be Garry???? Enlighten us all! #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D #



Don't tell me I need to lay proof on the table for you Kopey, Suzuki just changed all of there twin gear box (or whatever term they have for it) ratio's. I just thought a person who luve Suzuki's so much would know and WANT to tell us all why this has happened. or is it that you have slipped down the food chain somewhat ::)

Please tell... I am waiting

Garry

[Spaniard_King]

Dam,, look another Etec vote since I posted #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So there's nearly 3 times more Etecs and Fichts than Hondas, boy Garry that must be really saying something! #;D ;D ;D

What is it saying Kopey?? Honda have a percentage of the market.. they have a quality product at a premium price, I will admit that. What else do you want me to admit to.... your struggling arn't you

Garry

[saurian]

Well just to do a blaze on you , Mate has albino 140 suzy with about
900 trouble free hours on it.
Seems like the wiring has burnt out from motor nearly back to the battery. Just one of those things I suppose.

Now as we are very " feisty" to say the least about our brands, I'll
let you know I wouldn't mind a honda but the suzuki is cheaper
for more horsepower, similar weight.
All outboards are machines and machines break down we all know that.
I mean if they made one that didn't " frt's" would be history.
We would all own that particular outboard.
I think the consumer needs helpful advice , not a bitch session.
And yeh , you guys will up me over this, but I havn't heard a bitch on
this thread about etecs.
Or is it just a bit more trivial than that ???

[saurian]

Kopey , " slap me garry " -" yes yes thats it"

Gary " oh kopey , you slap sooo good"

I love these keyboard romances

Gary & Kopey " Kerry , no no , not like that !!!!!"

Ta ...

[Spaniard_King]

Thanks Sauri ;)

youve gone and thrown a bucket of water on on us just when it was gettin good ;D ;D ;D

Garry

[Deiter]

Thanks Sauri ;)

youve gone and thrown a bucket of water on on us just when it was gettin good ;D ;D ;D

Garry


LFMAO
excellent timing...

[TonyOW31]

Where to start?
Kopey, you have said ‘what four strokes do best’ what is this? Can you please explain?
You state that four strokes are naturally more efficient, sorry but that is wrong.
A four stroke is never going to compete on equal terms with a two stroke of equal design vintage, due to simple physics. One power stroke per revolution is going to produce more power than 1 every 2 revolutions, even if that power pulse is less efficient, and that is not taking in to account the parasitic losses from the valve train.
You have mentioned GP bikes, and F1 as a case for four strokes being better, but maybe that’s because two strokes are not allowed in F1, nor Moto gp (in the premier class) when they were allowed, four strokes could not compete. Look at the smaller classes, not a four banger to be seen. Motocross has been taken over by four strokes, but look at the regulations. Lites class 125 two stroke, 250 four stroke, open class 250 two stroke, 450 four stroke.
Two strokes have other advantages as well, its called duty cycle. A four strokes duty cycle at wot is low, probably around 25%, and even using the top 20% of the rev range for extended periods is not a good idea, whereas a two stroke is probably around 85%, which means you can get away with less power, because you can use more of it for longer.
A two stroke will also have more area under the torque curve than an equivalent four stroke, as four strokes make their power with revs, so lower gear case ratios will be better suited to four strokes, because they need to compensate for the lack of torque through the rev range. I would think that the lower gear case ratios you mentioned on the Suzukis would be an engineering workaround for poor basic design. ie lack of low and midrange torque, and this has been turned in to a marketing gimmick. Look around you it happens all the time.
Oh, and before you ask, I am an engineer, and spent a number of years involved in the design and manufacture of competition engines, both two and four stroke, including F1 cars.
You have a dig at other manufacturers eg ‘Do they still sell many of these BF115/130's? i.e motor weighs 225kgs for 115/130 hp output’ because of a poor power to weight ratio, sing the praises of the Suzukis for theirs yet even on the bf115 its power to weight ratio is 1.9kg per hp whereas the Suzuki df90 is 2.1 kg per hp. Don’t even know why they bother making em eh, must be crap with that power to weight ratio.
I have no preference btw, as long as an engine suits my needs, I don’t care what its design is, so I’m not knocking four strokes here, just pointing out a few facts that seem to be lost on you.
Perhaps if you toned down the Suzuki hard sell there may be a bit less angst?

[Kopey]

Fourstrokes just keep getting better and better. 20 years ago you'd laugh if someone said they were going to make a full range of 4 strokes for power to weight ratio. Now they're just getting better and better, take the new DF300 for instance: 279kgs, there's alot of two strokes out there that don't even have that power to weight ratio.

2 strokes on the other hand I think are starting to get to the pinnacle of their design. I honestly don't know how they could make a 2 stroke burn any leaner than they've already got them nor use any less oil i.e: 200 Etec apparently only uses 7.2 L per 100 hours use (I stress apparently), there's just so much a piston engine can do really I spose.

As far as I'm concerned I'm suprised there hasn't been a revolutionary design to make all piston engines out dated, every time that piston has to go up you lose so much power, I spose it's to keep us using more oil for those oil companies. #;D # I spose if it aint broke don't fix it, we've got to be thankful for the choices we have now.

They're just some of my thoughts on the matter anyway
Cheers Adam

[Gilbert-McDowell]

Gill,

I/O yes Inboard/Outboard, Sterndrive. Wuold have thought an Ocean Trek would have shafts? The last one I saw was before KC crashed in 1994 and I don't recall the power at all.

Has there been many of them made in recent times? The mould used to sit down the back and that's about all it was doing anytime I saw it.

Regards, Kerry.



OK, I dont see why or how you could ask if my boat was inboard or outboard. It seems you knew the answer to the question you asked. Ive never heard of any Cummins motor being mounted as an outboard.

As far as me knowing how many Kevlacat Ocean Trek 4600's have been made well I would say its best to talk to Kevlacat, it appears you may know more than I do. I can vouch for one.

Gilly

[Kopey]

Don't tell me I need to lay proof on the table for you Kopey, Suzuki just changed all of there twin gear box (or whatever term they have for it) ratio's. I just thought a person who luve Suzuki's so much would know and WANT to tell us all why this has happened. or is it that you have slipped down the food chain somewhat ::)

Please tell... I am waiting

Garry

I really think you should stick to what you know Garry, no need to start making something out of nothing. For starters it's called an offset driveshaft, all it is is a gear driven under the powerhead off the crank which reduces the gear ratio as so you have a lower gear ratio without the need to use a bigger gearbox which would be less streamlined in the water for a start.

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis. #;D ;D

The later K7 DF90/115/140 will all be getting the same gear ratio box as currently the DF90/115 have a slightly different gear ratio than the DF140's. They are doing this to make propping rigs alot easier between the 3 as well as being able to have counter rotation available in all three sizes now instead of just the 140.

Please try and tell me what the big problem is with this Garry??? and while your at it you can also explain to us the problems you also had with the fuel pumps on the BF115/130's and why there was a problem i.e: Location of fuel pump in regards to vapour separator tank. #;D ;D ;D ;D #(did quite a few at the old dealership) #;) #

If you want we can also have a chat about the oil pump pick ups in earlier V6's or the auto choke in the carburettors of the 40/50's as well. #;D ;D #

slipped down the food chain....Really Garry, whatever boosts your ego or makes you happy. #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[lippa]

kopey, can you supply, actual hp figures for the zook????????? can you show a graph of their torque range? any hp will do.

cheers

lippa

[youngfisho]

lippa,

I havnt seen any graphs or dyno sheets which highlights the amount of torque or power output on any website or doing searches online. Maybe the ob manufacturers dont want us to know. Yeah they say a 70hp produces 70hp between 4500 and 5500 rpm. But how much horsepower or how much torque before those numbers. One would have to assume that a motor with greater cubic capacity will have more power and torque downlow.

If anyone ie garry, kopey or other ob mechanic got any info that would be good to know.


andrew

[Kopey]

your struggling arn't you

Yeah mate, really struggling ::)

[Kerry]

kopey, can you supply, actual hp figures for the zook????????? can you show a graph of their torque range? any hp will do.

cheers

lippa

So wonder why such simple info like this isn't freely available or can not be made available.

Regards, Kerry.

[Spaniard_King]

Kopey,

It's quite obvious you take great pride in Hondas past problems. Can you come up with any current problems that have not been solved ::)

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis.

You see Kopey I do not profess to know anymore about Suzukis than any other person on this site. I ask a simple question which you answered that there is no change in the ratio. I got my info from a Proppeller supplier who told me that the suzuki ratios had changed as they now ask for which year engine to supply a particular prop as the ratio has changed in 2006 ::) just thought you may know about it and why.. hence the food chain bit ;)

I will endevor to get some facts and figures for you to chew on!

Garry

[Spaniard_King]

Here ya go Kopey, looks as if it was just the flagship 140 that had the ratio change. Now why would that be?? I am sure all the 140 owners would like to know as well as ME ;)

How to choose the correct blade type - Solas Propeller recommendations

9.9 - 15hp choose Saturn
25 - 30hp choose New Saturn
40 - 50hp choose New Saturn
60 - 70hp choose Saturn or New Saturn
90 - 115 - 140hp choose H/R Titan only
140hp suzuki 4 stroke 2.39 ratio Sep 06 model choose H/R Titan only 19p
140hp suzuki 4 stroke 2.59 ratio Sep onward choose H/R Titan only 21p
150 - 175hp choose Lexor only
200 - 250hp choose Lexor only


Garry

[Deiter]

kopey, can you supply, actual hp figures for the zook????????? can you show a graph of their torque range? any hp will do.

cheers

lippa

So wonder why such simple info like this isn't freely available or can not be made available.

Regards, Kerry.


Ditto that....from any manufacturer actually. I don't recall seeing a graph at all except for some early etec adds.

[suzygs1000]

Looks like TonyOW31 may have overlooked a little thing like unburnt fuel being shoved out of the exchaust port by the rising piston! The only way a two stroke (all things being equal in the comparison) will be more efficient than the equivalent four stroke is to stick valves in the things (Detroit Deisels) 8-)

[Sportfish_5]

What is the big deal about a leg ratio change Gary ?

They are still swinging a big diameter prop and have increased the pitch and they spin slightly quicker at a given rpm compared to previous.

Do you believe that the zukes have had gearbox problems because I have yet to read an actual substantiated account of this on any forum on the web ? Just looks to me as they are trying to fine tune the power/torque curves for better performance.

If you know otherwise please let me know as I will be looking at a K7 140 Zuke for the next rig.


Cheers

Greg

[Spaniard_King]

Greg,

I havent herd of any gear box problems. The 140 has been out for some time now and I was just curious to know why the change. With such a change they look to be wanting more top end rpm.

Garry

[Sportfish_5]

Ahhh Phew thats good. You had me a little worried :o :o :o :o :o

[finga64]

I drive a Kingswood and I'm proud. :)

I don't like super whizzbang techno anything so the more basic it is the better I like it. May be a bit easier/cheaper to fix if anything does go wrong.
I have a little Honda and love it, I have a bigger Tohy and love it, I have a bigger Merc. and love it. Why, they're all simple.

Why don't they make a rotory/rotax outboard if power to weight ratio is so important??

[Kopey]

Don't tell me I need to lay proof on the table for you Kopey, Suzuki just changed all of there twin gear box (or whatever term they have for it) ratio's. I just thought a person who luve Suzuki's so much would know and WANT to tell us all why this has happened. or is it that you have slipped down the food chain somewhat ::)

Please tell... I am waiting

Garry

I really think you should stick to what you know Garry, no need to start making something out of nothing. For starters it's called an offset driveshaft, all it is is a gear driven under the powerhead off the crank which reduces the gear ratio as so you have a lower gear ratio without the need to use a bigger gearbox which would be less streamlined in the water for a start.

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis. #;D ;D

The later K7 DF90/115/140 will all be getting the same gear ratio box as currently the DF90/115 have a slightly different gear ratio than the DF140's. They are doing this to make propping rigs alot easier between the 3 as well as being able to have counter rotation available in all three sizes now instead of just the 140.

Please try and tell me what the big problem is with this Garry??? and while your at it you can also explain to us the problems you also had with the fuel pumps on the BF115/130's and why there was a problem i.e: Location of fuel pump in regards to vapour separator tank. #;D ;D ;D ;D #(did quite a few at the old dealership) #;) #

If you want we can also have a chat about the oil pump pick ups in earlier V6's or the auto choke in the carburettors of the 40/50's as well. #;D ;D ##

slipped down the food chain....Really Garry, whatever boosts your ego or makes you happy. #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Kopey,

It's quite obvious you take great pride in Hondas past problems. Can you come up with any current problems that have not been solved ::)

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis. #

You see Kopey I do not profess to know anymore about Suzukis than any other person on this site. I ask a simple question which you answered that there is no change in the ratio. I got my info from a Proppeller supplier who told me that the suzuki ratios had changed as they now ask for which year engine to supply a particular prop as the ratio has changed in 2006 ::) just thought you may know about it and why.. hence the food chain bit ;)

I will endevor to get some facts and figures for you to chew on!

Garry


What in the Above statement don't you understand Garry??? #I think it's becoming quite apparent to me your only sole goal here is to question my credibility. Where here don't you understand that the offset driveshaft ratio will not be altered in anyway but three models will be soon to share the same gearbox ratio as the geabox ratio at present is different. Read the bold alright or are your eyes just a little blurred???

Offset driveshaft ratio: No change
(for Gary: twin gearbox thingy)size]
[size=14]
Gearbox ratio: Change

Understand??? El comprehenday???? #:o :o

It's like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes, talking to these people.

Apart from now all sharing the same gear ratio there'll be some extra holeshot benefit for the DF140 aswell having an even lower gear ratio. I know Kerry's going to love that last holeshot comment. #;D ;D

[Kerry]

Gill,

I/O yes Inboard/Outboard, Sterndrive. Wuold have thought an Ocean Trek would have shafts? The last one I saw was before KC crashed in 1994 and I don't recall the power at all.

Has there been many of them made in recent times? The mould used to sit down the back and that's about all it was doing anytime I saw it.

Regards, Kerry.



OK, I dont see why or how you could ask if my boat was inboard or outboard. It seems you knew the answer to the question you asked. Ive never heard of any Cummins motor being mounted as an outboard.

As far as me knowing how many Kevlacat Ocean Trek 4600's have been made well I would say its best to talk to Kevlacat, it appears you may know more than I do. I can vouch for one.

Gilly



Gill, So where did I ask if it was an Inboard OR Outboard. I asked if it was an I/O or shafts!

[finga64]

I think a group hug is needed.
Beside that there's some people starting to make dills out of themselves.
This thread is about cleanest outboard....nothing more...who really cares about gearbox ratios or if the Queen has a Seagull outboard on the corgy express....let it go fellas.
If you any question about warantees or gearbox ratios just start another thread. It's that easy.

Just imagine outsiders looking at this. They would say what a bunch of wacko's and go somewhere else.

[Spaniard_King]

Don't tell me I need to lay proof on the table for you Kopey, Suzuki just changed all of there twin gear box (or whatever term they have for it) ratio's. I just thought a person who luve Suzuki's so much would know and WANT to tell us all why this has happened. or is it that you have slipped down the food chain somewhat ::)

Please tell... I am waiting

Garry

I really think you should stick to what you know Garry, no need to start making something out of nothing. For starters it's called an offset driveshaft, all it is is a gear driven under the powerhead off the crank which reduces the gear ratio as so you have a lower gear ratio without the need to use a bigger gearbox which would be less streamlined in the water for a start.

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis. #;D ;D

The later K7 DF90/115/140 will all be getting the same gear ratio box as currently the DF90/115 have a slightly different gear ratio than the DF140's. They are doing this to make propping rigs alot easier between the 3 as well as being able to have counter rotation available in all three sizes now instead of just the 140.

Please try and tell me what the big problem is with this Garry??? and while your at it you can also explain to us the problems you also had with the fuel pumps on the BF115/130's and why there was a problem i.e: Location of fuel pump in regards to vapour separator tank. #;D ;D ;D ;D #(did quite a few at the old dealership) #;) #

If you want we can also have a chat about the oil pump pick ups in earlier V6's or the auto choke in the carburettors of the 40/50's as well. #;D ;D ##

slipped down the food chain....Really Garry, whatever boosts your ego or makes you happy. #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Kopey,

It's quite obvious you take great pride in Hondas past problems. Can you come up with any current problems that have not been solved ::)

This design gives the big advantage of being able to swing larger diameter props for more thrust. They are not altering this in anyway, I think Garry has sucessfully showed us just from the term he gave it how familiar he is with Suzukis. #

You see Kopey I do not profess to know anymore about Suzukis than any other person on this site. I ask a simple question which you answered that there is no change in the ratio. I got my info from a Proppeller supplier who told me that the suzuki ratios had changed as they now ask for which year engine to supply a particular prop as the ratio has changed in 2006 ::) just thought you may know about it and why.. hence the food chain bit ;)

I will endevor to get some facts and figures for you to chew on!

Garry


What in the Above statement don't you understand Garry??? #I think it's becoming quite apparent to me your only sole goal here is to question my credibility. Where here don't you understand that the offset driveshaft ratio will not be altered in anyway but three models will be soon to share the same gearbox ratio as the geabox ratio at present is different. Read the bold alright or are your eyes just a little blurred???

Offset driveshaft ratio: No change
(for Gary: twin gearbox thingy)size]
[size=14]
Gearbox ratio: Change

Understand??? El comprehenday???? #:o :o

It's like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes, talking to these people.

Apart from now all sharing the same gear ratio there'll be some extra holeshot benefit for the DF140 aswell having an even lower gear ratio. I know Kerry's going to love that last holeshot comment. #;D ;D



Kopey,

could you sum that up for me.. takes too long to read all that again ;)

[Kopey]

I think most people figured it out the first time. Bold hard to read or something? #;D

So where's these so called Suzuki "twin gearbox thingy" issues? #;D ;D


I will endevor to get some facts and figures for you to chew on!

So how about you just start up another thread titled "Suzuki twin gearbox thingy issues," #;D #Or "Haines Suzuki 5 year warranty issues"

This thread is titled,"What's the most popular clean tech outboard?" or can't you read that neither??? #;D ;D ;D

[Spaniard_King]

I think most people figured it out the first time. Bold hard to read or something? #;D

So where's these so called Suzuki "twin gearbox thingy" issues? #;D ;D


I will endevor to get some facts and figures for you to chew on!

So how about you just start up another post titled "Suzuki twin gearbox thingy issues," #;D #Or "Haines Suzuki 5 year warranty issues"

This thread is titled,"What's the most popular clean tech outboard?" or can't you read that neither??? #;D ;D ;D


Actually I got all caught up in your Suzuki propaganda that I had forgotten all about the topic ;)

To Save me quoting from another post ::) here is some quality reading about clean tech outboards

http://www.ausfish.com.au/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1159239521/0#0 #

Another #http://www.ausfish.com.au/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1150406866/all-0

If anyone is really interested there lies some good info ;)

It's really all been done before, but I will bump them up for all to read again :)

Garry

[TonyOW31]

Looks like TonyOW31 may have overlooked a little thing like unburnt fuel being shoved out of the exchaust port by the rising piston! The only way a two stroke (all things being equal in the comparison) will be more efficient than the equivalent four stroke is to stick valves in the things (Detroit Deisels) 8-)

No I didnt overlook that, and I stand by my statement.
Gs 1000 is a nice bike btw owned and raced a few of em in my time.

[Kopey]

I think the figures of the poll has been interesting to say the least anyway. That Etec campaign must of really worked being 2nd overall at 38 to Suzukis current 45. Funny I never see many on the water here, I spose we're ultra competitive around here in the Bay.

I'd say it's been a big come back from them after the Ficht saga, suprised there wasn't more goers for Hondas, especially with their new 5 year warranty. If it was a choice between the 2 (Etec or Honda) the Honda would certainly be my pick but everyone's different. I guess they've got to get a new line of EFI 40/50 on the go as well and update those over weight 115/130's.

I must admit the last few pages of this thread have been entertaining to say the least, brung out some people's true colours I think, I do confess I love backing a product I love but hey everybody's different, if we weren't the world would be a boring place wouldn't it? ;)

[Gilbert-McDowell]

Considering the slamming some people have attempted to give you Kopey, I think it is admirable that you have not been tempted to make the same kinds of attacks. Ive read some things here and in other threads that are to say the least very questionable and borderline.

Ive learnt some different things about peoples behaviour on the internet. I guess its hard to judge how a person's expression's and tone's are to be taken when you can only read them, it would br better or maybe worse for some people to say these things in person.

I guess they cant be too bad though or surely a moderator / administrator would have removed any offensive material or member.

Gilly

[Grand_Marlin]

Anyone wanna buy a ticket in a Chook Raffle ?? # ;D ;D ;D

The Chook has already been dressed #:D


<------

[Spaniard_King]

GM you seem to be advertising the sale of alot of stuff in the boating section lately, ie raffle tickets,popcorn, Icecream etc. Are you setting up a shop ;D ;D ;D

Garry

[flotsom]

have you herd the hype on the new 75/90 Honda's. i was lucky enough to speak with a dealer that went to the new model release and has water tested the new model.

20 klgs lighter than the nearest competitor, shared proven technology from the biggest honda selling motor car the "jazz".

has BLAST, new exclusive technology from Honda again that alters the advance curve of the motor on acceleration to have 2-stroke like performance out of the hole.

one of the dealers went barefoot skiing behind the 75 on a stacer 489 at 45 MPH.

sounds like another Honda that i can not wait to get ahold of.

also a note to be made there was a presentation about emissions and Honda came up cleaner in most cases, even if only by a point, still cleaner....

[Kopey]

Ahhh Phew thats good. You had me a little worried #:o :o :o :o :o

Can't believe his little cop out would actually worry anyone. ;) ;D ;D ;D

[Grand_Marlin]

GM you seem to be advertising the sale of alot of stuff in the boating section lately, ie raffle tickets,popcorn, Icecream etc. Are you setting up a shop ;D ;D ;D

Garry


Yep ... my signature dish is battered Ausfish and chips for $6.50 #:D

... and I only use premium quality Etec oil for cooking #;)

Apparantly Suzuki 4 stroke oil is high in iron :o ... especially once used ;D
It has even been reported that it was found to contain a complete set of teeth ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Pete

[NAGG]

Hi All ...... I get worried when the warranty card is played ..... The fact is that big warranty's are used to sell otherwise slow selling / unproven products (ie Mitsubishi coming up with 10 year warranty on their cars ...... or Hyundai 5 year) ::) ..... The same goes for 5 year outboard motor warranty's.
The manufactures are far more concerned with selling volume because the margins are quite good ( a $10K motor might mean a $5K margin) $5K pays for a lot of repairs , specially if only a relatively small percentage is claimed........ Also when you think about the average hours an outboard is used per annum !
ME..... I'd prefer to have 3 years of problem free running than having my motor repaired every 3 months Free of charge for 5 years! .......... :)
NAGG

[Kopey]

Don't think I'll take you up on the chips GM, As good as the Etec oil may taste it's pretty hard to break down in the stomach (approx 100 hours per 7.2ml serving) and could lead to major digestive problems in the future.

I heard if you continually consume it for over 3 years it may lead to uncuriable heart attacks caused from sudden break downs. First signs of symptoms must be treated within a 3 years. #;) ;D ;D ;D

[Grand_Marlin]

Don't think I'll take you up on the chips GM, As good as the Etec oil may taste it's pretty hard to break down in the stomach (approx 100 hours per 7.2ml serving) and could lead to major digestive problems in the future.

I heard if you continually consume it for over 3 years it may lead to uncuriable heart attacks caused from sudden break downs. First signs of symptoms must be treated within a 3 years. #;) ;D ;D ;D


Thats very clever Kopey ;D ;D ;D

At least one thing, you would sh!t well :D

Cheers

Pete

[TonyOW31]

'as well and update those over weight 115/130's.'
So, given that you are having another dig at Honda, what is your opinion on the Suzuki DF90?, seeing as it has a worse power to weight ratio than the Hondas you are bagging?

[youngfisho]

Forget the suzi 90. Have a read of this review of the new honda. Would be an ideal twin set up on a new 18 to 21 foot cat or even a big platey.

http://www.beststuff.com/categories/fromthewire/carsbikesboatsnews/honda-marine-introduces-new-75-90hp-efi-4-stroke-outboard-engine.html

andrew

I think they may be the first to introduce variable valve timing in the smaller engine classes as well.

[youngfisho]

Honda Marine Announces Pricing for New 75 and 90hp Models


ALPHARETTA, Ga. 10/10/2006 --

Honda Marine today announced pricing for its new BF75hp and BF90hp engines. Arriving in Honda Marine dealerships in January, 2007, the BF75 remote control model is priced starting at $8,995, while the BF90 enters the market at $9,585.

Completely redesigned for 2007, the Honda Marine BF90 and BF75 4-stroke outboard engines offer boaters two models that provide immediate response coupled with smooth, powerful acceleration and fuel efficiency in both fresh and salt water.

Both products deliver virtually smoke-free performance and meet California Air Resource Board (CARB) 3-Star requirements, which are 20 percent lower than those federally mandated by the EPA.


prices are American dollars. #Here's a conversion

75hp 90hp
11767.3993 # #12542.5281

not sure how accurate those prices will be once they hit Australian shores, but some food for thought anyway. I imagine they will be competitive with the market here. #Oh and I and as flotsam siad they have slashed 20kg of the weight as well now down to 163kg for the 20 inch leg


2007 Honda BF90 EFI Engine Technical Specifications



Alpharetta, Ga. 09/29/2006 -- ENGINE

TYPE 4-Stroke In-line 4-Cylinder
DISPLACEMENT 1496cc (91.4 cubic in)
BORE & STROKE 73 x 89.4 mm
RECOMMENDED RPM RANGE #5300-6300 RPM
HP RATING AT PROPSHAFT 90HP (67.05Kw) @5800RPM
VALVE TRAIN #SOHC VTEC(TM)
VALVES PER CYLINDER #4
FUEL DELIVERY #Programmed Electronic Fuel Injection (PGM-FI)
IGNITION SYSTEM #Microcomputer Programmed
STARTING SYSTEM #Electric
LUBRICATION Wet Sump
COOLING SYSTEM #Water Cooled
ALTERNATOR 44 Amp (546 watts) Max
BATTERY CHARGING POWER #35 Amp (433 watts) Continuous
TRIM RANGE #-4o to +16o
TILT RANGE #68o



DRIVE

GEAR RATIO 2.33:1 (12/28)
GEAR SHIFT #F-N-R
PROPELLER Optional



DIMENSIONS

RECOMMENDED TRANSOM #(L) 508 mm/20 in
DRY WEIGHT 20" #163 kg - 359 lbs

[disorderly]

Gday youngfisho,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # These new hondas sound very #impressive,indeed it says in the specs you provided that a propeller is optional!!

[youngfisho]

I think what they mean there is that depending on the rig you put it on will depend on the pitch of the prop as well as the material its made of. this info was derived from an american site so its not all set in stone.

andrew

[lippa]

i have taken the new 90hp honda for a spin, and i can tell you they are impressive. i could hold a conversation at 6000rpm no worries! performance was very similar to a two stroke. nice motor!

cheers

lippa


disclaimer: this is my unbiased opinion only.

[Kopey]

Sounds like a winner to me lippa, and good work on diggin up that info on the 90 too youngfisho, cheers. ;)

[Kopey]

90 Evinrude Etec: Inline 3, 1295cc, 145kgs, DI
90 Tohatsu TLDI: Inline 3, 1267cc, 143kgs, DI
90 Merc Optimax: Inline 3, 1526cc, 163kgs, DI
90 Suzuki 4 strk: Inline 4, 1950cc, 189kgs, EFI
90 Honda 4 strk: Inline 4, 1590cc, 169kgs, carbed
90 Merc 4 stroke: Inline 4, 1732cc, 181kgs, EFI
90 Yamaha 4 strk: Inline 4, 1596cc, 168kgs, EFI

90 Honda Latest: Inline 4, 1496cc,163kgs, EFI

The now current latest line up of 90 hp competitors.


'as well and update those over weight 115/130's.'
So, given that you are having another dig at Honda, what is your opinion on the Suzuki DF90?, seeing as it has a worse power to weight ratio than the Hondas you are bagging?


No need to get all extra sensitive about comments that I make, They're directed at the outboards. I see the DF90's to be very weighty too but they also displace 1950cc's, around half a litre more than its other competitors which would make this motor good for heavier applications. Don't worry I'm always on the Suzuki reps back too for when they're going to come out with a lighter DF60/70 to compete with the brilliant 60 EFI Yamaha fourstrokes which I reckon are the best in this size category.

It's like with the new release of Honda's 90 EFI, you can't tell me this engine won't help boost sales neither tell me that they hadn't needed to replace the older version which was still carburetted when all it's competitors are EFI.

[Kopey]

Can anybody dig us up some info on any other outboards? Wouldn't mind seeing a boat test with the new Suzi DF300's. A 4 litre V6 that only weighs 279kgs has gotta be a cracker.

That power to weight leaves alot of 2 strokes for dead. Just had a quick flick through the 2 stroke Etec specs and there isn't a single motor in their range that beats this power to weight.

It seems as the 2 strokers pack on the technology and kilos in the process to burn less fuel and oil the 4 strokers just keep getting lighter and stronger by the day. They could probably make the 2 bangers alot lighter as you don't need the same displacement to make the same horsepower as a 4 stroke but not without sacrificing engine life, reliability and durability hence why a 200 Etec is still a 3.3 litre engine to compete with a 3.6 in the Suzi or 3.3 in the Yamie 4 stroke etc.

Just some thoughts
Other opinions regarding topic, new outboard info etc very welcome thanks.
Cheers Ads #;)

[flotsom]

kopey, as you would agree also when 2 bangers pack on technology they seem to become unrelible, before any one gets cranky i mean compared to 4-stroke of any breed, 2-strokes of this day in age don't stand a chance to do the same hours trouble free.

[Kopey]

Agree totally flotsom, just waiting for the flood gates to open, hopefully this time we may get opinions based on fact rather than the usual imflammatory personal attack BS I get.

I spose give the DI 2's time and we'll see how they fair. ;)

[manchild]

How is 3600 hours on a 90 e-tec sound? Thats not a secondhand info either i seen it with my two eyes on the printout.Dunno if thats make any difference the engine is used by a pro crabber .
cheers
George

[dfox]

Kopey- I notice in most of your posts you talk alot about power to weight.
It concerns me when i read specs on many of the new outboards when the engine has a large displacement and yet is light in comparison to other engines in its class.
Im well aware that weight savings can be made in a number of areas in an outboard, but equally its more important that critical areas retain strength and therefore sometimes weight.
If every outboard manufacturer continues to produce more powerful and lighter outboards, somewhere along the line gears, rods, cranks and more importantly blocks and water and oil galleries are going to be made thinner, weaker and more prone to failure.
Currently we are blessed with a seamingly reliable compromise in power weight and reliability. (i hope).
What im getting at is just because an engine is lighter and has more cubes doesnt mean its superior. I'd hate to see suzuki or for that matter any brand of outboard manufacturer compromise on weight at the expense of reliabilty. Recreational and commercially used boats arent drag cars or racing machines, i know im not telling you something you probably dont already know, but its something that we must all concider ...foxy

[Kopey]

Point taken dfox, I don't think there is too many dramas yet as far as thinner and weaker components is concerned. Alot of people are probably still used to seeing alot of these car engine go outboards such as the 115/130 Hondas I mentioned earlier. In car engines power to weight is not such a concern hence the weight of these engines, they run big balancer shafts aswell as alot of other heavy components that don't actually add to extra power or durability.

The DF140 Suzuki for instance has exceptional power to weight ratio only weighing 186kgs yet just looking at the engine you can already see more places where they can reduce weight without comprimising the integrity of the engine i.e: still uses thick alum intake manafold- can use plastic and re-route vapour sep tank and high pressure fuel pump, transom mounting brackets, no VVT or Multi stage air induction etc.

There still hasn't been anyone to design an outboard that has a W configuration yet either instead of the standard V design, a design that would definetly shed heaps of kilos without comprimising engine life but it all comes down to manufacturing dollars too I spose.

Other good simple 4 stroke technologies like VVT (variable valve timing), Multi stage air induction, VTEC variable lift timing, etc help in giving the awesome fuel economy, power, torque and response we all want and even other tech like LAFB sensors (Linear Air Fuel Burn) which takes the EFI system beyond just burning the standard steichiometric fuel to air ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel to as lean as 18 parts air to 1 part fuel. #

I still don't think the introduction of superchargers and turbos are the way to go yet as they would definetly raise some reliability issues I think. Before I left the Merc/ Honda dealership I saw the Verados and noticed they needed a big oil bath filter before the supercharger as a supercharged engine sucks around 20 times the air a naturally aspirated engine sucks so you could imagine what the straight salty misted air would do to the supercharger without it. 288kgs 275hp 2.6 litre Verado as opposed to a 279kgs 300hp 4 litre Suzi. #Still reckon there's nothing like good straight cubes for power, torque, reliability and durability.

[Kopey]

On the topic of Mercury Verados I notice they advertise a 6 year warranty in the States as per their website.

[Kopey]

How is 3600 hours on a 90 e-tec sound? Thats not a secondhand info either i seen it with my two eyes on the printout.Dunno if thats make any difference the engine is used by a pro crabber .
cheers
George

That sounds pretty good George. A good sign for the DI 2 strokers, any other details i.e what boat it's pushing, etc.

Those crabbers really knock up the hours, got a procrabber up here as posted on other thread, 2 X Suzi DF115's having to push a 28ft Cougar Cat that have done over 4000hrs.

[Ron173]

How is 3600 hours on a 90 e-tec sound? Thats not a secondhand info either i seen it with my two eyes on the printout.Dunno if thats make any difference the engine is used by a pro crabber .
cheers
George

That sounds pretty good George. A good sign for the DI 2 strokers, any other details i.e what boat it's pushing, etc.

Those crabbers really knock up the hours, got a procrabber up here as posted on other thread, 2 X Suzi DF115's having to push a 28ft Cougar Cat that have done over 4000hrs.

Kopey,

Gotta love that one, if mine did 3600hrs, and died at 3601, I'd still be one happy camper!

On average recreational boating hrs of 100/annum average, thats 36yrs!

I keep reading that "the ETECs are still unproven"

Rgds

Ron

[Kerry]

So what doesn't fit here withe the DF140?

A so called 140hp 2044cc engine that probably doesn't produce 140hp anyway, which is a stretched DF90 attempting to gain an additional 50hp from an additional 2mm bore with an additional overall 94cc engine capacity yet the DF150 has an additional 823cc and is 10hp bigger and still only running 4 pots.

Logic here simply does not show in the figures. 50hp from 94cc, 10hp from 823cc ::)

[youngfisho]

Kerry,

you should know that the bore and stroke of an engine arent the only power producing attributes. valve size and airflow are also an important factor in how much power an engine makes. Having the engines of similar bore and stroke makes manufacturing and tooling far easier. ie same piston size, same conrod size. However to increase performance bigger stronger valves, better intake manifolds, different timing, different injectors. These all makes a difference with four stroke engines. It does seem odd that the 90hp has so many cubes yet 50hp less. But I would imagine that the heads, valves and engine management is vastly different to the df140.

kopey you've seen the guts of these engines would that be a correct assumption.


andrew

[Ron173]

I'm no Suzuki expert, but as a bystander in this debate, and perhaps looking at it from a different angle:-

Could the differences tween the 90 and the 140 be that the 90 is in a low state of tune and the 140 high?

Ron

[Kopey]

Been answered many times before and yet Kerry still manages to keep asking the same questions.


It is commonly known (in the 4 stroke world anyway) a piston engine is really just a big air pump. As long as it holds together for the load that is given, you're laughing. The cylinder heads are where the horsepower's made. #;)

Main differences would be in camshaft profiles, port air flow through heads, mapping of the computer ECM, etc hence why if you read the specs the Suzi 140's rev out higher than the 90's which run around 5000rpm's.

The DF140 is one of Suzuki's most popular engines, and I'm yet to see one that's ever failed. Already have pros up here, one on a 6.4m Bajcraft plate alloy for instance that has knocked up over 2000 hours for instance without drama. No one's ever complained about the performance neither.

If you really want to know exactly how much horsepower comes out of the propshaft I think it's exactly 138.6hp so I think it's fair enough to call it a 140. Suzuki are usually within but a few percent of hp as badged on the cowls, mostly over like the DT15 for instance that is actually an 18 horsepower. One engine that was probably a fair bit over the norm was the later 60 degree V4 90 Johnson/Evinrude's which actually produced 105 horsepower.

So Kerry with your logic explain this:

Suzuki DF150/175: 211kgs, 2867cc's
Honda BF135/150: 217kgs, 2354 cc's
Yamaha 150 4strk: 212kgs, 2670 cc's

[Kerry]

Now if I knew the logic I wouldn't have to ask the question would I? However I find it appears rather difficult to explain the 140 and completely ignore the logic between the DF140 & DF150.

[Kerry]

Kerry,
....Having the engines of similar bore and stroke makes manufacturing and tooling far easier. #ie same piston size, same conrod size. #However to increase performance bigger stronger valves, better intake manifolds, different timing, different injectors. #These all makes a difference with four stroke engines. #It does seem odd that the 90hp has so many cubes yet 50hp less. #But I would imagine that the heads, valves and engine management is vastly different to the df140.

andrew

Now same pistons would make a lot of sense wouldn't it? BUT the 140 is not the same pistons as the 90/115 or the 150 or anything for that matter. This point has been raised before in that some manufacturers use the one (1) standard sixe piston from 115, 130, 140, 150, 175 & 200 yet other manufacturers make a different size piston for every engine?

And has you say the heads, valves etc could be different BUT then it is very difficult to make and justify this statement with the DF150 sitting just 10HP above. In comparison between the 90/140 then all this reasoning should make the 150 into a 233HP motor? Somehow I don't think so ;)

Regards, Kerry.

[Kopey]

It's not so much to do with logic as it is to do with basic mechanics.

Suzuki engineers have also done extra things to the 140 such as fit an oil cooler behind the oil filter and widen the water jackets in the cylinderheads to compensate for the extra heat created when producing the extra horsepower, Thus making an engine as equally durable.

The 150 as opposed to the 140, the 150 would obviously have more torque and extra horsepower. I thought that would appear quite obvious too. #;D #

The Suzi 140hp only weighs 186kgs, the BF115/130 Honda weighs 225kgs, the Evinrude Etec 135 weighs 190kgs. Easy to see why to 140 Suzi is a popular engine.

It's not as if the 140 isn't equally as durable as the 150, at the end of the day it also comes down to the customer and technicians to figure out the right motor for one's boat, i.e: you wouldn't go putting a 50hp on a 6 metre boat that is designed to plane etc.

[Kopey]

So are you an engineer or something Kerry? What are you trying to get at? What is so vastly wrong with the DF140?

[FNQCairns]

There is a great PDF article on the Suzuki website outlining much on the 115 engines, I am interested in an engine to run a 6m tinny and am researching heavily ATM.

There is one of those 'hens' teeth graphs showing torque and power for this 2L engine, they relate it against the old suzuki 2 st 115 which was no slug if I remember corretly.
Surprisingly the 115 4 (on this graph) uses a lot more fuel than I thought from reading user reports. At cruise it is way up there in relative terms, I know it is a big engine for output just not what I expected and if the other brands are relative in their specific cubic inch size I may have been lead astray a bit!
Just something I have come to find that seemed interesting.

Anyone ever had any problems with a Suzuki? How long have they (4 st)been on the market?
The 90 is over $1500 cheaper than the 115, what would the real world cruise speed V RPM between the two be if anyone knows, I suspect none but happy to be corrected, do they prop identical?

cheers fnq

[Kerry]

So are you an engineer or something Kerry? What are you trying to get at? What is so vastly wrong with the DF140?

Enguneer #:D Nah don't even know how to spell it? Did you know the hardest 10 years of an unguneers life is grade 1 #:-? #;D ;D ;D and buggered if I was going to hang around for the other 5 years #;D

But the DF140 against the DF150 #:P this is a strange one! One has to look beyond the weight as is it weight that continuously gets flogged to death in support of the DF140, weight? Got to be sometime that's more important than simply weight?

The 150 and 140 are both in-line 4 cyl engines and as for torgue one would hope the 150 flogs the daylights out of the 140 as obviously the 140 is stressed to buggery to get anywhere near 140hp. In any case I doubt there is any in-line 4 140/150 that has the torgue of a 150 V6 of anybody's make!

Maybe there is a good reason why outboard manufacturers do no longer publish HP and torque graphs #:o #

As for durability? as the DF140 was only released in Oz about Sept 2003 then durability really hasn't got a life yet!

Regards, Kerry.
#

[Luke_Groen]

3 years is pleanty of time to show any flaws in an outbord IMO. The DF140 has a stella reputation among a variety of people and would be my choice if i brought a boat sutible for one.

[Kerry]

3 years is pleanty of time to show any flaws in an outbord IMO. The DF140 has a stella reputation among a variety of people and would be my choice if i brought a boat sutible for one.

;) Well at least you now know how long they have been in this country ;D But then one would have thought with all the stella reputations you mention you should have known that simple fact?

Like how can one speak in such high terms and not know how long the dam things have even been here ::)

[Luke_Groen]

What bad things have you heard about DF140's kerry? Thats what I thought ::)

[Kerry]

What bad things have you heard about DF140's kerry? Thats what I thought #::)

Would you expect to "hear" that much in 3 years with a 3 year warranty?

[Luke_Groen]

Stop making excuses kerry ;D

[Kerry]

So would you expect Suzuki to cover warranty 6-7 years down the track if there was a design problem ;) This is where the excuses start ;D

[Spaniard_King]

I must agree with the boys Kerry, the 140 suzi has been a good engine, no one seems to come up with a common problem.. so what is your beef??

Garry

[Kerry]

Hey Gary you crossing the floor to vote with the opposition #;D Closing thoughts to ponder #;)


The Suzuki 140 is a marketing work of art, a really brilliant idea that has made the engine very popular, especially for those shopping price. One of the things that appears to have helped it be this marketing work of art is that fact that it's supposedly a pretty fine piece of machinery. The only thing that has to be overlooked is actual "truth in advertizing", although legally, they are OK. Suzuki doesn't seem to have much problem selling a 125 Hp as a 140 HP. Most other brands do, however. Why do I consider it marketing brilliance?

1. It was introduced at a time when the market was crying for a 150HP 4-stroke, and none existed, including with Suzuki. So it was sold as close to 150 HP as they could legally get. As for honesty, you can decide that, as it applies to the HP rating rules.

2. Honda only had a 130 HP engine, the existing mid range HP leader, a heavy-weight mediocre performer that didn't sell well. Why not buy a leaner and meaner 140 instead was the theory. It worked. Nobody will really be able to figure out the true HP. Compared to the big Honda, the Suzuki looked like a no brainer.

3. Since the 140 is really a 115, with just a slight more displacement, it could be sold for the same as anybody else's 115, even thought it's probably no more powerful than anybody else's 115! Low price DOES sell. The generally accepted performance statistics seem to indicate this engine at about 125 HP, less than the HONDA 130! A brilliant scoop on Honda, obviously a company with higher principles, and a higher selling price on the engine.

4. Pick an oddball HP rating, so there is nothing to compare you against, and hence no B&WB magazine shootouts to expose your HP over-rating. Also brilliant. There was a reason why they didn't pick the uniformly accepted 135HP rating for the 125HP engine, as used by Mercury and Evinrude. Either the Optimax or Ficht 135 would blow it’s doors off, and some magazine would do such a comparison!

5. Do all of this before you start your REAL engine campaign, "Cubes count". Since the new Suzuki 150 has 2.8 liters, how could only 10HP less have only 1.9 cubes? Now that they have an entry where they CAN be compared to competing brands, the 140 marketing philosphy won't work. Now they've actually got to have the HP, or B&WB will do a number on them, like they have done to others.

6. And then, finally, what do we do about our horrible gold or silver paint schemes we have used in the past. We don't dare copy another Japanese company, like Yamaha or Honda, but the Americans, hey, they're fair game. We can't use the OMC white, since we're selling to them, so let's use Mercury's hugely popular sales leading black. Besides it looks good on outboards. Black was chosen as the 140 was introduced.

So there you have it, a really brilliant outboard marketing strategy that has paid off in spades, causing other brands to give up share to them.

Source: Anon

[Luke_Groen]

^^What a load of $hit, the DF140 makes 138hp according to F&B magazine. A bloke up here repowerd his boat with a Evinrude DI135 to a DF140. He is doing simular speeds with less fuel so much for only making 125hp.

Cheers

[Kopey]

Me wonders if Kerry has actually been out on a boat test with a DF140 to know??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kopey]

Maybe Black Hondas and White Yamies would be the go to hey Kerry! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kopey]

So anybody with any more latest outboard info or reports?

By the way, sold and fitted a few more DF140's and it definetly wasn't because of the paint neither!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Kerry]

Hey Kopey you ever have days like this ;D
http://www.cqnet.com.au/~user\aitken\gen\runroom.gif

Around and around and around in cirles we go ::)

[Kopey]

Nah, I get to work on different boats everyday, not sit on my @ss at home moaping about having no friends and no job and posting BS like 140's only producing 125, source: BS, magazine dribble, too much time. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[PADDLES]

hey adam, what boats did ya fit the 140's up to? what were they used for ......... recreational or commercial?

[Kerry]

Nah, I get to work on different boats everyday, not sit on my @ss at home moaping about having no friends and no job and posting BS like 140's only producing 125, source: BS, magazine dribble, too much time. #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D #


Yes yes yes I my apologies, no not 125hp at all, that's illegal, they are 126hp other wise the 10% sticker/ruling would be a no no ;D

Now what's this other arogrant ill mannered BS your going on about [smiley=clown.gif], not only an arogrant p$ick but a very assumptive arrogrant p$ick [smiley=jester.gif]

[yakka]

lot of emotion going on here. people making a big investment like buying a new motor, especially tight fishos, do there home work, check out eveything to do with the purchase, learn all the figures and facts and buy on benefits and emotion.

when you tell them that they bought the wrong motor you just told them that you think they are stupid.

not to many people Knock back a barwon banks fishing trip in a big kevlar cat or 8 metre plate boat because it is powered by yamaha and you would rather be in the creek with tiny tinnie because it's got a mercury. 8-)