Radar visibility and small boats

[Deiter]

Hi all. Had one of those moments during the week when i went for an overnighter off Mooloolabah.

First time i had taken the new boat offshore, and i was doing it solo as the deckie had to pull out at the last minute. I nearly called it off, but decided that a break in the weather is a break in the weather, and was sick off hitting the usual haunts in the bay. Needed that blue water fix. ;D

Anyhow, I am sitting on a nice little lump about 10k offshore, anchored and settled in for the night. The fish were coming over the side at a steady rate. Nothing flash but a good feed none the less.

I had been keeping a good eye out, as i appeared to be the only boat around. About 10:30pm, i had a peek around the sharp end and noticed two white lights in the distance, one just on top of the other. I wondered if it was a lighthouse or something, and why i had not noticed it earlier.

Keep fishing, 10 mins later i looked again, and the lights were further apart. This is when i knew that it was moving and there was a good chance it was a (bloody) big boat. another 10mins go by, and the lights are separating at a faster rate, but had not changed position. It is heading more or less straight for me.

Long story short, pretty soon i could see the white water coming off the bow off this ship and i had the motor started, spotlight in hand, and knife to the anchor rope just in case.

After a few 'brown' moments, it became clear that the ship, a big container, was missing me by at least 500m. It did scare the living sh!t out of me though, and i kept a very good eye on the horizon for the rest of the night.

I am wondering now if these ships can pick up such a small (5.5m) boat on their radar? I have heard that yes, the radars are very good, and they can even pick up schools of fish on the surface. If they were this good though, why do people fit radar deflectors. Does anyone have one fitted to their boat?

I am not afraid to say that the thought of getting steamrolled and spending the night treading water (or worse) has got me thinking to say the least. what other precautions do boaties follow when offshore with these mega-ton boats zipping around to ensure that you don't get listed on tomorrows news?

Damo

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Damo,

Radar and small boats is only as good as the radar, and the operator.
Admittedly, big boats like that would have excellent radar fitted.

Small boats do show up on radar, but are a lot harder to pick up than big boats.

The material they are made of makes a lot of difference too ... fibreglass is not the best reflector of radar signals.

Also, he would have spotted you from 12+ miles away and fixed you as a target on the radar.

If you have ever used a serious radar, you will know that they will also pick up intermittent targets like waves etc ... these targets will not show on every revolution of the radar sweep ... they come and go off the screen.
Small boats do the same .....
When they get to within 2 miles of a target, it becomes clutter in the centre of the screen... they then rely on establishing these targets visually with binoculars.

so some advice....

If a big ship is within a mile of you and heading straight at you, then there is every chance that it hasnt seen you.
At this range you will not be on their radar, may not be a visual target for them.
They can not stop in this distance (normally takes 2 miles to stop a container ship) and it is very hard for them to turn in an emergency situation.

If it looks doubtful - get out of their way.

A flash of a spotlight in their direction from a mile away will get their attention.

Just flash it back and forwards at them for a few seconds ... dont shine it directly at the bridge for a long period.

They also monitor channel 16 VHF, but I wouldnt rely on this as a good means of contact.

Cheers

Pete

[seatime]

Deiter

small craft can be difficult to see on radar, if there's any swell they can disappear in the troughs, in the chop they can get lost in the clutter.

an unobscured anchor light, visible for a couple of miles, and a radar reflector would be advisable.
mount the reflector as high as possible, to get it above the wave tops.

keeping a good lookout, as you did is the safest action.

don't ever assume you've been fixed as a target on their radar, be ready to move if needed. even the latest ECDIS and ARPAs can drop a small target, especially if auto anti-clutter is used.

you could have a your anchor buoy ready to clip on and pick up later, so you can get underway in a hurry.

regards
Steve

[FishOn]

Do the diamond shaped deflectors placed on the top of a small glass boat help radar to 'see' you?


Kind regards Trevor

[Mr__Bean]

I think a radar deflector is a bloody good idea if out there in other than an ally boat.

I can see the deflectors that are on the channel markers way before I can see glass boats on my radar, even the ones on the small markers.

Without them you are basically relying on a reflection off the engine powerhead.

- Darren

P.S. I also carry a small battery operated strobe in case I go in for a sleep overnight, it gets put up on the anchor light pole.

[Roughasguts]

Mr Bean, I like the strobe idea, you can see them for miles, even through fog and cloud. Unless your flying a plane in cloud, you tend to turn them off, cause they light up the whole cloud and blind you.

What is there power consumption like, and there cost to replace globes.

Cheers.

[Mr__Bean]

Can't really answer with any accuracy as I haven't had to replace the globe or the batteries, but I haven't had it on for extended periods, maybe an hour.

It only takes AA batteries and extras are carried in my safety bag to support my back up GPS (handheld).

Mine is a Yamaha one that turned up in the mail as a gift but it looks the same as these at Whitworths.

Link here: http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=144&item=74666&intAbsolutePage=1

- Darren

http://www.whitworths.com.au/products/74666_lg.jpg

[Roughasguts]

Thanks Bean, not a bad gadget, might save you life too if the boat sinks and your attached to it.

Unless it attracts sharks that is.

[FNQCairns]

That's some good general advice and interesting information to back it up, thanks blokes!

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

cheers fnq

[searaider]

Geday Mr_Bean - Darren ,
That strobe light sounds like a good idea , I might have to get one .

Peter
Searaider 2

[searaider]

Geday Mr_Bean - Darren ,
That strobe light sounds like a good idea , I might have to get one .

Peter
Searaider 2

[DaMaGe]

That's some good general advice and interesting information to back it up, thanks blokes!

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

cheers fnq

Do dey speaka engrish??

[seatime]

That's some good general advice and interesting information to back it up, thanks blokes!

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

cheers fnq

something like:

" south bound cargo ship, east of Cape X (or X Island)-- this is 'callsign' I am in position Lat/Long & east of Cape X-- do you see me-- I am approx X miles right ahead of you"

if your close to the coast give some sort of position relating to the land and your GPS position.
then turn on a bright light, and be ready to move if needed.

if the masthead lights are in-line or close to in-line, they're coming right at you!

some of these ships rely on their Guard Zone on the ARPA (radar) to acquire targets, otherwise by visual lookout.

regards
Steve.

[seatime]

That's some good general advice and interesting information to back it up, thanks blokes!

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

cheers fnq

Do dey speaka engrish??

they're supposed to, English is the international maritime language.
whether or not all do is debatable :o

[Kerry]

That's some good general advice and interesting information to back it up, thanks blokes!

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

cheers fnq

What does one say on VHF 16? to these big fellas, assuming concern only, not yet a dangerous situation? Is there a generic call?

Generic call procedure follows #;D

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call."

;D

Absolutely not true ;D well according to the Americans anyway!

[FNQCairns]

Ok thanks that makes sense, I hope I never find the need for a chat with one of those brute's.

Kerry it is true, I saw the filmed version at some stage ;D

cheers fnq

[Kerry]

So think about what it might look like from the other end! I spy with my little eye something beginning with ?? so which are boats?

http://www.cqnet.com.au/~user\aitken\gen\img_0002_w.jpg

And generally without DSC some of the ships won't to talk to you anyway.

Regards, Kerry.

[triman]

As a long time Ship's Master I can assure you we may NOT see you. A small boat in slightly lumpy seas can quickly be lost in the sea clutter then you as the boatie have to hope that the Officer of the Watch is also using the Mk 1 eyeball and can see your anchor light.
regarding the strobe light there is no provision in the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea for the carriage of a white strobe as an alerting device, in fact there is a specific prohibition, thus
Rule 36
Signals to attract attention
If necessary to attract the attention of another vessel any vessel may make light or sound
signals that cannot be mistaken for any signal authorized elsewhere in these Rules, or
may direct the beam of her searchlight in the direction of the danger, in such a way as not
to embarrass any vessel. Any light to attract the attention of another vessel shall be such
that it cannot be mistaken for any aid to navigation. For the purpose of this Rule the use
of high intensity intermittent or revolving lights, such as strobe lights, shall be avoided.

[Chine]

So think about what it might look like from the other end! I spy with my little eye something beginning with ?? so which are boats?

http://www.cqnet.com.au/~user\aitken\gen\img_0002_w.jpg

And generally without DSC some of the ships won't to talk to you anyway.

Regards, Kerry.


Kerry,

With the VRM set at 2.6nm and the size and proximity of returns......they are all boats. Failing that, it could be the Japanese coast on a good day! ;D

Regards

Chine

[Mr__Bean]

Triman,

Appreciate the input and (now) understand that there is a rule saying the strobe "shall be avoided", not sure how binding "Avoided" is but the intent of the rule cannot be disputed.

If however, I am out 30 -40 Kms offshore at night and I just can't stay awake, then I gotta say I will still be puting the little strobe light up to protect me.

Whether a large ship recognises me as a small pleasure craft or whether it thinks I am some sort of buoy out there I just want him to see me and to miss me.

It only goes up if I am in the cabin for a sleep, I will take the hit if I get pulled up for it.

Better than being dead.

- Darren

[Mr__Bean]

Kerry,

Looks like wave clutter to me, the one(s) that are boats are the one(s) there again on the next sweep.


But your point is well illustrated, what chance does a recreational vessel have really.

- Darren

[Grand_Marlin]

Yep, always keep your eyes open ... you really are like a frog on a highway.

... just like the 5m cat that got run over out from mooloolaba ... the boat didnt even see it.

Cheers

Pete

[triman]

Mr_Bean, the word "Shall" means must, will, etc in the world of international relations. Look at the Lights and Shapes Rules where the prescribed lights "Shall" be carried.
You are at liberty to use the strobe if you so wish but just remember that you are breaking the law. I won't go through the regs tonight as far as Qld goes but in Victoria the Colregs are given effect by Section 58 of the Marine Act 1988. There will be a similar provision somewhere in the Qld legislation.

[Chine]

Triman,

Appreciate the input and (now) understand that there is a rule saying the strobe "shall be avoided", not sure how binding "Avoided" is but the intent of the rule cannot be disputed.

If however, I am out 30 -40 Kms offshore at night and I just can't stay awake, then I gotta say I will still be puting the little strobe light up to protect me.

Whether a large ship recognises me as a small pleasure craft or whether it thinks I am some sort of buoy out there I just want him to see me and to miss me.

It only goes up if I am in the cabin for a sleep, I will take the hit if I get pulled up for it.

Better than being dead.

- Darren



Darren,

The strobe/light combo that you have posted earlier is designed to attach to PFD's to assist in man overboard scenarios. Unfortunately they have very limited range and are actually very difficult to pick up from most ranges.

Another way for you to address the visibilty concern is to combine say two or three low drain LED all round white lights to give yourself a fighting chance of being detected. The ship's Officer of the Watch may have set his gain, rain and sea clutter controls at such a level that may preclude you from being detected by radar and so you are relying on him keeping a good visual look out. It is extremely difficult, at times, to see a 5 metre vessel from a ship's bridge at anything but very close range.

On another tack, it is the responsibility of all parties to maintain a good lookout at all times and take whatever action is necessary to avoid collision. So to cut a long story short, if he does not see you and is not taking avoiding action pursuant the the collision regs then it is your responsibilty to take whatever action is required to avoid a collision.

Regards

Chine

[Mr__Bean]

I understand Triman.

No question on "shall" wasn't sure on "avoided", but happy to accept your knowledge in this area.

Gotta say though, last time I overnighted on the banks it got quite rough and every damn anchor light was blinking just like a strobe light as the boats dipped and rolled in the waves.

Wouldn't have been a constant white light out there.

Not that I got a lot of time to look at them, it was that rough I spent most of the night with my head over the side offering berley.

- Darren

[seatime]

And generally without DSC some of the ships won't to talk to you anyway.

Regards, Kerry.


Hi Kerry

not sure how VHF DSC communication between vessels would be used in such a situation as this.
you would need to know the MMSI number of the vessel you were calling, how would you know who they were?

otherwise, the DSC call would need to be an all stations call, and only to be used as distress, urgency or safety.
If it falls into any category, it may be a navigation safety broadcast, maybe?
I'm not sure if sending a navigational safety broadcast because a ship was heading towards you is allowed? you may have some explaining to do later.
by the time they acknowledged the call and fixed your position they might already be on top of you!

interesting idea tho, might investigate it further.

regards
Steve

[GBC]

I carry a sea-blitz strobe for emergency situations. The thing is completely blinding to look at and I doubt that you could sleep with it on. They are designed to be seen by search aircraft at night. If this is what you're talking about hoisting up the mast I'd ask that you think again - divers and fishos carry these under solas guidelines and if set off, basically means i'm in the water, please rescue my arse. I'd hate to think that someone saw mine in an emergency and thought I was just another sleeping fisho and didn't bother coming over to check it out.

C.J.

[Edencraft]

At all times I presume that I am not seen if I cant raise the vessel on VHF16 I will drop the anchor with a bouy, mark the spot on the VHF and move off. No use being in the right and dead. If he hits you, you are just as much in fualt as the large vessel if not more. It is easier for a small vessel to see a large vessel and take avoiding action that the other way around. If you are sleeping on your vessel with no lookout you are breaking the law anyway. Good eye's and a good attitude are your best insurance.

Todd

[Phil-Fishbin]

I agree.GBC #. I would not appreciate floating in the darkness in some pfd ring miles from land ,with my strobe light belting away, having passing boats thinking I was just havin a kip .

[Mr__Bean]

If you are sleeping on your vessel with no lookout you are breaking the law anyway.


Todd,

Are you sure it is against the law if you are at anchor and your anchor light is on? I go past yachties all the time that are all downstairs when at anchor. Not looking for a dispute, just not sure how the law works when you are at anchor.


GBC,

Hmmmmmm, something I hadn't considered........

- Darren

[Chine]

If you are sleeping on your vessel with no lookout you are breaking the law anyway.


Todd,

Are you sure it is against the law if you are at anchor and your anchor light is on? I go past yachties all the time that are all downstairs when at anchor. Not looking for a dispute, just not sure how the law works when you are at anchor.


GBC,

Hmmmmmm, something I hadn't considered........

- Darren



Darren,

If you are anchoring in a position where there is the likelyhood of commercial traffic passing then it is your responsibility to maintain a lookout using all means available to you......this means visual, aural and radar if fitted.

There have been a number of accident investigations between anchored trawlers and sea going vessels where both parties were held accountable for conducting a poor lookout.

A yacht anchored close in or out of the shipping channels is a different kettle of fish to a 6~7 metre recreational vessel anchored 30~40kms off the coast. In any case, at that range of operation, would it not be appropriate to have two on board.......one kipping and one on lookout?

Regards

Chine

[triman]

Rule 5
Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as
by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to
make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Open to interpretation but, if you anchor in an area where other vessels may be expected then you are required to maintain a lookout.

[Mr__Bean]

Boy we are hijacking the original topic here, but some good discussion on a very valid topic I think. Since moving to Brisbane and joining this site I see that many of us head out for night offshore fishing.

On that basis I would like to continue the discussion unless some feel otherwise. Not looking for any bitch fights or grandstanding, but let’s talk it through for best recommendations for the overnight fisherman.


Chine,

Yes, two or more makes sense to me. Not just for watch but for other general safety, things go wrong too easy out there to be on your own.

I usually fish with my twelve year old boy, he has a very level head and he is the one I trust in my boat with me. Over the years I have taught him how to drive the boat in a variety of conditions and would like to next take him on the crossing bars course (not sure of age restriction).

He does however crash out of a night and I am usually left up alone from about 2am through to daybreak. This is when I am also at risk of falling asleep in the chair, despite my best efforts to stay awake.

This does happen to us despite best planning and I think we have our head in the sand if we reckon we are going to have a 100% watch throughout the night.

Comments from others here please, maybe I am wrong assuming this of others.......

It is during these risk times I was thinking of still using the additional light, after these discussions many more views have been put forward which also need to be considered. The benefit of a working forum I guess....

The point on a yacht close to shore and a boat out offshore is also acknowledged, I have only seen them closer to shore etc.


Triman, don't disagree with the intent of the rule. ATSB maritime accident investigation reports also support the need for a "watch". But I don't think the rule is applicable if at anchor. Yes, I agree "Rule 5 - Lookout" lists the requirement but rule 5 is a section of Part B of the rules which deal with the "Steering and Sailing Rules" and I don't think they apply to vessels at anchor.

I maybe wrong but regardless, I think they would apportion blame if you had no watch at anchor when offshore.

So I come back to my original dilemma, if you are out at the banks (or similar) for an overnight fish and despite best planning you are at the stage where you just don't think you can stay awake, what do you do? It is easy in a car you take a powernap but you can't do this on a boat and keep watch.

This is where my mind was regarding future use of an additional small strobe but that too has been blown away now.

- Darren

[Deiter]

Darren, I think you bring up some very valid points. And as far as getting off the original topic, i think this stuff is very relevant and needs to be discussed.

I too have fallen asleep while o'nighting offshore. All lights were on as required, but my eyes were not exactly keeping a lookout. What can you do????
I think it is unrealistic to say that you cannot sleep if you are the only person aboard. It may be pollitically and legally correct to say you MUST keep a lookout at all times, but like most polliticaly correct legislation, it is not always workable or practical. I guess the only alternative is not to go out at all!

I think in hindsight, the only way to gaurantee you are not gonna get steamrolled is to keep watch always, and be prepared to get out of the road in bloody hurry if needed.

Now any extra lighting has gotta be a good thing, so if a strobe is not ideal, what is?

Damo

[wessel]

Does a flashing strobe not mean a vessel or person in distress?

Wessel

[Deiter]

yeah Wessel, i think that is the arguement against using one.

I think it would be a good idea to have a strobe, perhaps with a certain flashing sequence that indicates "Vessel at anchor" so it does not get confused with a distress signal. Maybe only to be used in open water, i.e. more than 2nm off the coast.

Maybe it should flash "Anchored Vessel" in, oh crap, cant remember the name of it, you know the dot dot dash one.

Damo

[Mr__Bean]

I have got big work lights that shine down on the back of the boat, maybe I will just idle the motor and put the work lights on if I have to snooze.

They would flatten the battery if left on too long without the motor running.

- Darren

[Deiter]

Morse code was the one i was thinking...

[seatime]

G'day Deiter

The collision regs aren't really about political correctness.
They are probably the most practical around, there is no ambiguity written in, great care has been taken with the wording so there can be no misunderstanding them.

They are international rules, taught and understood by mariners the world over and have stood the test of time, some 80-100yrs.
Any misunderstanding will be on the part of an individual interpretation, take it to court it will be very clear cut.

There is one very good publication that helps with interpreting the rules of the road, by Croft maybe?, the authors' name escapes me, someone else may shed some light.
This book puts each rule into perspective with layman's terms and a scenario or historical incident concerning the rule. It's usually a fixture on-board most ships and a text used in many colleges.

Nobody wants to argue who was right and who was wrong in a coroners court or marine incident inquiry.

I truly believe anchoring out wide, like the banks area, where ships transit, on your own and not being able to keep a proper lookout, is an accident waiting to happen.
Parts of the Barwon Banks sit on a track used by ships Nth and Sth bound between Indian Head and Pt Lookout, depending on the current, been over it many times myself using that route.

Another issue I'm uncertain of is the use of LED replacement globes for nav lights, particularly anchor lights.
Can anyone confirm LEDs comply with the rules for the luminous range requirements of nav lights?

regards
Steve.

[triman]

LED globes should be fine as replacements for conventional globes in Nav lights provided they can comply with Annex 1, section 8 of th Colregs. There are LED lights available now but you should ensure they comply before buying. (Sorry about some of the funny blocks in the following but it can happen when you copy and paste a PDF).

8. Intensity of lights
(a) The minimum luminous intensity of lights shall be calculated by using the
formula:
I ƒ# 3.43 x 106 x T x D2 x Kƒ{D
where: I is luminous intensity in candelas under service conditions,
T is threshold factor 2 x10ƒ{7 lux,
D is range of visibility (luminous range) of the light in nautical miles,
K is atmospheric transmissivity.
For prescribed lights the value of K shall be 0.8, corresponding to a meteorological
visibility of approximately 13 nautical miles.
(b) A selection of figures derived from the formula is given in the following table:
Range of visibility (luminous range) of light
in nautical miles
D
Luminous intensity of light in candelas
for K = 0.8
I
1 0.9
2 4.3
3 12.0
4 27.0
5 52.0
6 94.0
NOTE: The maximum luminous intensity of navigation lights should be limited to
avoid undue glare. This shall not be achieved by a variable control of the
luminous intensity.

Regarding the applicability of Rule 5 the only qualification for this Rule is in Rule 4;

Part Bƒ{Steering and Sailing Rules
Section Iƒ{Conduct of vessels in any condition of visibility
Rule 4
Application
Rules in this Section apply in any condition of visibility.

Rules 6 and 8 to 10 imply vessels underway and making way, Rules 5 and 7 make no such inference.

Regarding the Rules in entirety, to the best of my recollection there is only 1 Rule where an action is mandated, that being Rule 14
Rule 14
Head-on situation
(a) When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal
courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard
so that each shall pass on the port side of the other.

All other Rules leave avoiding action up to the watchkeeper on the ship, based on training and experience.

[seatime]

LED globes should be fine as replacements for conventional globes in Nav lights provided they can comply with Annex 1, section 8 of th Colregs. There are LED lights available now but you should ensure they comply before buying.



that's what I was asking, how do you ensure they comply?

I haven't seen anything on the packaging on the ones I've seen that state any compliance.

most salesmen wouldn't have a clue, and say anything or nothing to sell their stock.

[Chine]

Darren,

The best precaution in the short term is to get the brightest regulation lights that you can get on your boat matched to the capacity of your second battery and keep a lookout.......but I have a longer term solution.

The international maritime industry has introduced some new GPS/VHF combined technology as a means of improving ship to ship and ship to shore communications.......AIS (Automatic Ship Identification). Each SOLAS vessel >300grt is now fitted with a GPS/VHF transponder which allows the vessel to automatically transmit it's GPS position along with other dynamic data such as name, speed over ground, course over ground etc. The same transponder is also able to receive other vessel's data who are within VHF range and overlay this information on the radar and electronic chart display. The identification appears as a large triangular icon on the screen irrespective of weather conditions, gain and clutter settings........you cannot miss it. The receiving station can interrogate your icon and get all your details..........we are talking detection ranges of up to 40nm's.
There are two types of transponder...A & B. The B class unit does not have as many features although would be more than adequate in the recreational arena. The only problem at present is they are prohibitively expensive ($3000~$5000) although are coming down very quickly as more manufacturers come into play.

So here you are with your Class B transponder fixed to the rocket launcher with its inbuilt GPS and VHF constantly transmitting you data to all AIS equipped vessels within VHF range........all stations including shore based search and rescuie and Port Authorities........brilliant, seamless technology......and your can back this up with your 406MHz EPIRB with inbuilt GPS. The transponder runs off rechargeable batteries and is totally separate to the boat's power system.

This is not far away.

Regards

Chine

[Kerry]

All the technology is great but unfortuneately not as reliable as the old system where ships were required to monitor (yes actually required to maintain a radio watch) specific radio channels and real people too talk too. This technology has widened the gap between big boats and little boats.

Yet all the technology in the world is no saviour yet ships still run smack bang into the biggest brick wall known (the GBR).

Lets face it AIS isn't something that was intended for recreational vessels fishing at night!

Regards, Kerry.

[beaross]

After doing a couple of overnighters at Wide Caloundra in winter this year, and seeing some container ships come within a kilometer or so of us during the night, I asked exactly this question to a mate of mine who drives these things. He said categorically do not rely on them seeing you on their radar every time - particularly in a small glass boat in lumpy conditions. He went on to explain clutter etc. Interestingly he subsequently refused an offer to go night fishing with us despite being a keen fisho (for this reason).. that says a bit to me!

[Kerry]

Big ships at night are like a phantom, they make absolutely no noise!

[Getout]

I nearly got clobbered by a ship on the Hards one night. Three on board a six metre walkaround cuddy, all asleep. Glassy calm. Woke up to a strange sound. Looked out the cab window to see the bright lights of a ship passing our bow 100m away. It continued on its course with no-one in sight as I fumbled aroud trying to turn on lights to attract attention. Our anchor light was burning brightly. They just never saw us and by the time we saw them it was too late to do anything. I always have someone on watch these days and a spotlight at the ready.
Another time, some clown nearly mowed us down same spot, havin a fish, middle of the night, lights on, no one anywhere near, hear a motor, watch a trailerable boat bear down and pass us within 5metres and keep going.
40 miles out is a scary place at night!
I reckon there must be many collisions we just don't hear about

[Chine]

All the technology is great but unfortuneately not as reliable as the old system where ships were required to monitor (yes actually required to maintain a radio watch) specific radio channels and real people too talk too. This technology has widened the gap between big boats and little boats.

Yet all the technology in the world is no saviour yet ships still run smack bang into the biggest brick wall known (the GBR).

Lets face it AIS isn't something that was intended for recreational vessels fishing at night!

Regards, Kerry.




Hmmmmmm.........

They removed the position of Radio Officer off ships many years ago and moved to GMDSS. They then stripped electricians and shipwrights off the vessels..........as you take people off ships you need to increase technology.....simple really.

Was this accident rate in the GBR pre or post AIS? Are you also an expert on fatigue in the Maritime Industry?

Who said that AIS was INTENDED for recreational vessels? This is purely a spinoff.

Goodness you can come up with some purile statements at times Kerry! Pop off and throw your baits elsewhere.

Best Regards

Chine

[jackster]

i hope he knew you were there

although i dont have confirming links
i was told that
there is no requirement to maintain a radar watch
in open ocean there is no requirement to run a 24hr watch

this could mean there are ships out there running blind
thats scary, i hope someone will show me to be misinformed
any merchant navy guys on the forum?

[Mr__Bean]

.



Are you also an expert on fatigue in the Maritime Industry?

Interesting you mention Fatigue in the Maritime Industry.

I recently attended a 4 day symposium on Fatigue Risk Management in Aviation, over the 4 days presentations were given by many international speakers on work they were doing in a variety of industries to enable "fatigue risk" to be managed.

Whilst primarily focused on aviation, there were speakers from mining, petroleum, transport, defence, etc. To my amazement one speaker highlighted that an industry plagued with fatigue related accidents was the commercial fishing industry.

It has one of the worst records for fatigue accidents as it is quite common for the man at the wheel to fall asleep on the way back to port as he too is flogged out from the night(s) fishing.

One company had lost 7 trawlers to reef and rocks due to fatigue.

So I guess it isn't just the big ships to worry about, better keep an eye on trawlers working the night also.

- Darren

[triman]

i hope he knew you were there

although i dont have confirming links
i was told that
there is no requirement to maintain a radar watch
in open ocean there is no requirement to run a 24hr watch

this could mean there are ships out there running blind
thats scary, i hope someone will show me to be misinformed
any merchant navy guys on the forum?

There is no requirement for a 24 hour radar watch, however the prudent mariner will have at least 1 radar running.
There is an absolute requirement for a 24 hour visual and aural lookout while the vessel is at sea, including at anchor. To go back a page or two


Rule 5
Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as
by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
There are many instances of ships belting around the world's oceans without a properly manned bridge and as the maritime industry cuts costs by reducing manning, employing 4th world crews and requiring more and more information from ships at times that suit the office but not the vessel you, me and everyone can expect more incidents due to the lack of a full and proper lookout.

[seatime]

Hey Guys

All the talk of no-one listening on VHF Ch16, not having radars switched on etc, just doesn't happen in practical terms for ships coasting.
It is possible, that in the past on deep sea voyages that the older CRT type radars may have been turned off to give them a rest.
Nowadays the majority have ARPAs, it's a requirement for Aus registered ships and most others, if you have an operational radar onboard any size ship it's expected that you'll have it switched on, and a must in reduced visibility. Why have $$$ worth of ARPAs and integrated bridge systems, and not use them, doesn't make sense.

VHF 16 is monitored 24/7 by port authorities for shipping movements, and ships use CH16 to call each other, tugs, pilot boats and any other vessels encountered. For distress, urgency and safety calls, initially DSC then over to 16 and a working channel.
Ships on the coast do listen to Ch16 for practical use, regardless of what the textbooks say about DSC taking over.

AIS systems like SeaTrack are being used by local VMRs and Coast Guards now, and for the sake of safety may well become more widely used by small craft in the near future. Remember when a 406 EPIRB cost $1500-2000, that was only a few years ago, now they're $400. They were made adaptable and affordable for the small craft market. If the manufacturers choose to produce tracking systems for the recreational market, they could make them more affordable and practical for general use.
With the increased popularity of boating, bigger safer boats venturing further, and the accompanying increase in distress alerts, search and rescues and fatalities, it can only be expected there will be an increased focus on safety. The recreational industry is only mirroring what systems are already used successfully in the commercial industry, with an adaption to suit smaller craft.

regards

[Chine]

.



Are you also an expert on fatigue in the Maritime Industry?

Interesting you mention Fatigue in the Maritime Industry.

I recently attended a 4 day symposium on Fatigue Risk Management in Aviation, over the 4 days presentations were given by many international speakers on work they were doing in a variety of industries to enable "fatigue risk" to be managed.

Whilst primarily focused on aviation, there were speakers from mining, petroleum, transport, defence, etc. To my amazement one speaker highlighted that an industry plagued with fatigue related accidents was the commercial fishing industry.

It has one of the worst records for fatigue accidents as it is quite common for the man at the wheel to fall asleep on the way back to port as he too is flogged out from the night(s) fishing.

One company had lost 7 trawlers to reef and rocks due to fatigue.

So I guess it isn't just the big ships to worry about, better keep an eye on trawlers working the night also.

- Darren

Morning Darren,

Spot on.

The ATSB has investigated over 30 collisions between fishing vessels and sea going vessels since April 1994. The majority of these collisions occurred in the wee hours with the findings indicating that fatigue leading to a poor lookout were contributing factors. At one stage there was some talk of increasing manning to address the fatigue.......but that was wishful thinking. They work some atrocious hours.

Regards

Chine

[Chine]

Hey Guys

All the talk of no-one listening on VHF Ch16, not having radars switched on etc, just doesn't happen in practical terms for ships coasting.
It is possible, that in the past on deep sea voyages that the older CRT type radars may have been turned off to give them a rest.
Nowadays the majority have ARPAs, it's a requirement for Aus registered ships and most others, if you have an operational radar onboard any size ship it's expected that you'll have it switched on, and a must in reduced visibility. Why have $$$ worth of ARPAs and integrated bridge systems, and not use them, doesn't make sense.

VHF 16 is monitored 24/7 by port authorities for shipping movements, and ships use CH16 to call each other, tugs, pilot boats and any other vessels encountered. For distress, urgency and safety calls, initially DSC then over to 16 and a working channel.
Ships on the coast do listen to Ch16 for practical use, regardless of what the textbooks say about DSC taking over.

AIS systems like SeaTrack are being used by local VMRs and Coast Guards now, and for the sake of safety may well become more widely used by small craft in the near future. Remember when a 406 EPIRB cost $1500-2000, that was only a few years ago, now they're $400. They were made adaptable and affordable for the small craft market. If the manufacturers choose to produce tracking systems for the recreational market, they could make them more affordable and practical for general use.
With the increased popularity of boating, bigger safer boats venturing further, and the accompanying increase in distress alerts, search and rescues and fatalities, it can only be expected there will be an increased focus on safety. The recreational industry is only mirroring what systems are already used successfully in the commercial industry, with an adaption to suit smaller craft.

regards

Great post!

Things are on the move already with some International Maritime Authorities insisting on some non-SOLAS/ Recreational vessels being fitted with AIS transponders when using certain waters.......this is all an extension of the 911 business.

The benefits to assisting in search and rescue are enormous.......but I can also see applications in the case of Darren and others who fish out wide.


Regards

Chine

[FNQCairns]

There is an absolute requirement for a 24 hour visual and aural lookout while the vessel is at sea, including at anchor. To go back a page or two #

This is an immensely interesting thread!!

How does on maintain an aural lookout in the bridge of one of these ocean going ships? Do they place a person outside 24/7?

cheers fnq

[triman]

"How does on maintain an aural lookout in the bridge of one of these ocean going ships? Do they place a person outside 24/7? "

I can't speak for other mariners and other companies but every ship I've been on and every ship I've commanded one bridge door has been open at all times while at sea.
The modern ship meets ambient noise standards including on the Bridge and there is surprisingly little background noise.
During daylight hours most ships only have the OOW on the bridge and, dependent upon the regulations under which the ship was built she may not have a night lookout either, only the OOW. Ships with the notation "OMB" do not require a lookout to assist the OOW.

[seatime]

There is an absolute requirement for a 24 hour visual and aural lookout while the vessel is at sea, including at anchor. To go back a page or two #

This is an immensely interesting thread!!

How does on maintain an aural lookout in the bridge of one of these ocean going ships? Do they place a person outside 24/7?

cheers fnq

A 24 hr lookout includes the Officer of the Watch, so during the day only the OOW is on watch, unfortunately some less reputable shipping companies only have the OOW at nights also.
The better, safer companies include a dedicated outside, bridge wing lookout in hours of darkness.
This comes down to manning issues and cost.
The OOW should regularly venture out of the bridge to have a look and listen, whether all do is another matter.

Don't rely on the ship to see you, by whichever means is available to them. It is still your own responsibility, and for safety sake, to be able to move quickly out of the way if needed. Can't stress that enough!

Maybe hydrophones are next on the agenda, joking ;)

It's important to familiarise yourself with all of the Colregs, not only the ones that generally applied to small craft. As posted earlier, some of the training recieved by crews on certain Flag of Convenience ships and others, is questionable. In this case 'size matters'.

regards
Steve

edit: typing when triman posted

[FNQCairns]

What is a 20kg, 5 foot long, 500watt, ear splittin fog-horn worth!!!.

It's all a little spooky, we were adrift 15 years ago with a busted leg from a strike in a busy shipping lane at night, although far from busy by todays standards I suspect, one fairly big ship passed within 150m of us.

What is the minimum regulation placed on these ships for passing another craft? Same as everyone else?

cheers fnq

[Chine]

It is interesting how the standard of lookout has changed over the years.....the colregs are steeped in history.

When radar first came out, the traditional Master was very wary of the technology and rarely allowed the OOW to switch it on favouring the standard visual and aural lookout.....and he had the luxury of high manning levels meaning dual manning of the bridge at all times. The importance of a good aural lookout was always very high (pre radar) particularly during times of restricted visibility......they navigated by listening for the regulation sound signals and posting extra lookouts forward to achieve good coverage.....although...... it did not do the "Titanic" much good!

Nowadays, an aural lookout is an all encompassing job......they still listen for regulation sound signals but in addition..... VHF, GMDSS, Engineroom alarms, ARPA alarms, AIS short messaging etc etc. Such is the impact of reduced manning allied with increased technology. So there may be one Officer up there at night who is loaded up and has missed your 2nm all round white light.........

Regards

Chine

[triman]

"What is the minimum regulation placed on these ships for passing another craft? Same as everyone else? "
Good question. Where is a minimum passing distance specified for small craft?
The Colregs do not specify passing distances; they only state who has right-of-way etc.
Personally I would expect to detect another vessel at 12+ miles, watch them to 6 miles then if I was the hampered vessel would look at making a move to avoid collision.
If I was the stand-on vessel I would keep watching until 4 miles then start alerting the other vessel. At 2 miles I'd be taking matters into my own hands.
This, however, is all on the high seas.
In pilotage waters it is not uncommon to pass another vessel at a distance of 100 metres while both are doing a fair speed. Note however that both ships will be under the charge of either an exempt Master or a Pilot and the behaviour of both vessels will bo closely monitored until the passing move is completed.

[Grand_Marlin]

Very good points, and it is great to see some difinitive experience, not just heresay.

Just a couple of quick calculations for you:

If you are thinking about pulling anchor and moving, give yourself plenty of time.

The majority of ships are travelling at 22 knots and are upon you very quickly.

Most people are only wondering whether to move or not if a ship is within 1 - 2 miles from them.

The following calcs are the time taken for a ship to reach you at 22 knots.

1 mile = 2.75 minutes
2 mile = 5.5 minutes
5 mile = 13.5 minutes
12 mile = 32.5 minutes

So, if a collision looks imminent and the boat is 2 miles away, you have 5.5 minutes to get the anchor up / off on a buoy and get the hell out of there.

not long if you think about it....

Also, at 12 mile is the distance which nav lights should be visible (just) and 12 mile is probably the absolute earliest a small fibreglass boat would be visible at all on a good radar ... and even then it would be intermittent readings.

So, from the time that you could just see them, or they could just detect you, you have a total of 32.5 minutes... and that is if a proper lookout is being kept.

Cheers

Pete

[seatime]

2 miles passing distance is a good guide between ships. It also depends on who's on the bridge of the other ship! some of these guys rely heavily on GPS plotters & ECDIS and don't like straying off the track.

I've heard of masters on some FOCs coming onto the bridge and checking the course recorder, then give the 3rd Mate a clip over the ear for altering course and wasting fuel!
Not sure how true it is, but experience tells me some don't like altering in head-on situations, if you alter course 4-6 miles away, they will maintain course and not reciprocate the action.

[Chine]

Herein lies the problem.

Because, as Triman said, "Safe Distance" and "Close Quarters Situation" are stated yet not defined under the rules it opens the situation up to the OOW's own interpretation.

If we go back to the original post, which I think was a 500m clearance.....the OOW may well have sighted the anchored vessel and deemed 500m to be a safe clearance.....but the poor b.......d on the anchored vessel is not aware of of this and may well be very uncomfortable with the the assumption that he has not been sighted and things are a little close for his liking.

The previous post about closing speeds and times is very relevant.

When in doubt, call on VHF CH 16. Only recently was I called by a yacht passing down my starboard side......I had been monitoring him, he was on the radar and I was comfortable with the closest point of approach......yet he was not comfortable, with the view that I may have altered to starboard towards him and so he called me up on 16. I was really chuffed that this guy had the common sense to call up and establish my intentions.......he was using all means at his disposal to avoid collision.

Regards

Chine

[triman]

The Colregs must be a generic document to cover all vessels. Accordingly it is impossible to define "close quarters", "safe distance" etc, because as a Master on a high speed catamaran ferry I was happy to pass within 100m of another vessel due to my enhanced maneouvrability but when on the bridge of a 150,000 tonne bulk carrier with a turning circle measured in miles and a stopping distance of 8 miles the 2 terms meant totally different things to me and required a radical change of mind-set.
As it was when the fast ferries ran from Melbourne to Tassie we established our own Rules, working with the pilots and exempt Masters. Because we could turn in a matter of hundred of metres, albeit with some discomfort to passengers if we turned too sharply, we would call all vessels with which we may become involved and we would state the we would take all action to avoid collision and ensure a safe passing/crossing/overtaking. Not only did this put the mind of the bloke on the other vessel at rest but it was also recorded on the Harbour Control audio tape so that if anything did happen we would be hung out to dry.
Regarding a 500m clearing distance it depends entirely upon the vessel I'm on and MY interpretation of the other vessel's movements. We have the luxury of limited traffic around the Australian coast; for some really scary stuff have a look at Malacca Straits, the Japanese coast, Straits of Gibraltar and various other congested waters and ask yourself how you would interpret a VHF call
"Ship on my port bow, what are you doing?", said with a strong East European accent and there are 2oo vessels on your radar within 12 miles. That's where the Rules come into their own!

[triman]

Regarding my previous post where I said that in the fast ferries we stepped outside the Rules and gave way to everyone we would have had little or no defence had anything gone pear-shaped; our only lifeline would have been Rule 2, and that was extreemely tenuous.

Rule 2
Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or
crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules
or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary
practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all
dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including
the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these
Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

[Kerry]

Chine, #So you saying all this new "technology" has not put a bigger wedge between little boats and big boats?

As for fatigue? The martime industry doesn't have sole rights in the fatigue business :-? ::) Sounds like a bit of a cop out, that one?

[DALEPRICE]

so if something was invented that clipped onto the
top of your vhf radio areial that was highly reactive
to a radars system we could solve the proublem???

just thinking out aloud and wouldnt have a clue
how a radar works.
cheers dale

[triman]

so if something was invented that clipped onto the
top of your vhf radio areial that was highly reactive
to a radars system we could solve the proublem???

just thinking out aloud and wouldnt have a clue
how a radar works.
cheers dale

Daleprice, there are many designs of radar reflector available, of varying effectiveness, but you must remember that the biggest single downside to a fibreglass boat in this particular situation is that fibreglass is NOT a good radar reflector and as noted very early in this thread ant echo seen on board a ship's radar is more than likely from your engine, being the largest metallic lump on board.
This post, from the USsiling website, gives values for a range of radar reflectors. Note that this was done in 1995 and the technology has probably vastly improved. For an explanation of the gee-whiz terms used I defer to Kerry or another person more knowledgeable than me.

http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_3.htm

Then there's this, an OZ company
http://www.buoys.com.au/trilensinfo.html

[Deiter]

modified to protect the guilty

Damo

[Getout]

I reckon I might just buy one of those radar reflectors, mount it on a stick and shove it in my rocket launcher when I anchor at night

[triman]

Now you're talking, and a good bright anchor light.

[rainbow_runner]

Mr Bean has the right idea

I have heard too many similar stories

A radar deflector for $40 bucks is cheap insurance and the strobe is a brillant idea

I now know what the kids are getting me for Xmas

I was told it's not compulsary for ships now to monitor 16 on vhf

Can anyone confirm this

[Chine]

Mr Bean has the right idea

I have heard too many similar stories

A radar deflector for $40 bucks is cheap insurance and the strobe is a brillant idea

I now know what the kids are getting me for Xmas

I was told it's not compulsary for ships now to monitor 16 on vhf

Can anyone confirm this



In addition to GMDSS equipment SOLAS vessels are fitted with two working VHF's on the bridge. One is on CH16 at all times.

The radar reflector is an excellent idea............school's out on the strobe. ;)

Regards

Chine

[rainbow_runner]

Thanks for the feeback on the radio

[Edencraft]

When at sea I refuse to put the safety of myself or my crew in the hands of someone else. You as the skipper are ultimatly responsible for the vessel and it's safety, if I can't keep watch myself and I don't have anybody on the vessel responible enough to keep watch then I don't stay out all night. In saying this many do, look at around the world solo sailers. I think people have to stop thinking in the mindset that it is the responsibility of the big vessel to see you and take action to avoid a colission. It is your responsibility as skipper of your vessel that you don't let the situation arrise where you could be run down by another vessel. Take responsibility for your own safety don't rely on someone else doing it for you.

[triman]

Mr Bean has the right idea

I have heard too many similar stories

A radar deflector for $40 bucks is cheap insurance and the strobe is a brillant idea

I now know what the kids are getting me for Xmas

I was told it's not compulsary for ships now to monitor 16 on vhf

Can anyone confirm this



I wouldn't be saying the bit about the strobe light too loudly. If you'd care to refer back a couple of pages they are a definite no-no, but to each his own.