View Full Version : 50hp Yamaha 4st won't start
oddbudman
09-01-2007, 06:30 PM
I've got a 2002 model 50hp Yamaha 4st tiller steer and every now and then it won't start. Infact it won't do anything other than make a tick tick sound when i turn the key or try and adjust the trim tilt ( the tick tick sound is similar to the sound you hear when you try and start a car with a flat battery) . I have also noticed when it does this i can't get the engine into reverse gear using the gear knob (when the engine is off).
Up until now I have managed to get the engine going again by a random combination of moving the trim level while giving it some help with my hand, turning the battery isolation off then back on and moving the tiller.
Anyone got any insight to the problem? I know the battery is charged and that the alternator is working. Once i get it to turn over again the problem seems to dissapear (the starter kicks over and the engine starts). Gut feeling tells me that this problem may be the engine thinking it is in reverse gear when infact it is in neutral, but thats only a guess.
Can anyone shed any light on this problem?
cheers,
oddbudman
blaze
09-01-2007, 06:40 PM
I would be looking at high amperage connections, things like the main battery lead termination points, starter solinoid.
simple test
put a jump start lead from the neg bat to neg on starter
put pos bat onto the terminal where the solinnoid goes to the starter motor
do this using a know good battery
this will test the starter and main power leads
cheers
blaze
finga64
09-01-2007, 06:44 PM
If the trim/tilt doesn't work I think there is something astray with the main battery feed as the trim/tilt should work when the outboards in reverse shouldn't it??
I'd be checking the connections of the battery cables in the outboard.
Might be a good idea to check the battery switch as well.
I think that not getting into reverse when the motors stopped is just a case of gears not meshing together.
oddbudman
09-01-2007, 11:17 PM
Thanks for the feedback fellas,
I think i'll try that tip with feeding power to the starter later this week. I'll also try and figure out a simple way to get a meter on the boat so i can measure the battery voltage and see if it is dipping under starter or trim/tilt load.
The thing is this problem generally dissapears within a few minutes, it is very random and seems to have little correlation to time spent with the engine on or off (the engine starts 95% of the time, it is only on a few occasions it has ever done this). I never need to jiggle the battery terminals or anything like that, thats what kinda got me thinking perhaps it is some sort of signal issue, as i know this motor will not start if it is in gear. I thought i would throw this question out there and see if there were any known quirks to look out for.
In the meantime i will go do the simple checks terminals, connectors etc. Keep you posted on how it all goes.
oddbudman
oddbudman
10-01-2007, 06:14 PM
Just an update, i did some simple checks when i got home today.
I checked all battery connections and terminals from the battery to the motor - all are ok and clean.
I also did some voltage measurements on the battery.
Battery Voltage unloaded - 12.5V
Battery Voltage under electric trim / tilt load (lifting engine) - 12.2V
So it does not look like a battery problem. The battery is 70Ah capacity (i know alternator is ok also as battery voltage is at around 13.9V when running wot).
I also tried to start the motor and trim the motor when in gear. The trim still works, but the engine does not start - but interestingly, the engine does not make that ticking sound it normally makes when this problem occurs- so i think that ticking sound is the clue to the problem. The ticking sounds a little like relay contacts latching, or the sound you would hear from a spark plug sparking.
Anoying thing about this problem is that it is intermittent - its hard to know when it is going to happen - and i have no way of making it happen :-?... The struggle continues.
oddbudman
FNQCairns
10-01-2007, 06:58 PM
Probably time to replace the starter solenoid with a known good one, even one from a wreckers could give you 10years of service.
cheers fnq
toymod
11-01-2007, 04:11 PM
Any luck?
oddbudman
11-01-2007, 05:00 PM
I'll check the starter solenoid today when i get home. After doing some reading it seems that it could be causing the ticking sound that i've been hearing when this problem happens.
Strange thing is that the when this problem occurs, the trim / tilt also doesn't play the game. Its like some low voltage protection circuit is being mistriggered or something like that.
Fingers crossed when I take the engine cover off this afternoon I can find a sketchy terminal connection or plug connection.
I'll keep you posted.
oddbudman
gone_fishing
11-01-2007, 05:54 PM
G"day Oddbudman
sounds like a wiring circuit prob
the ticking would most probabley be the soliniod kicking in and out due to a lack of power
you have checked the power side but you could possibly have a bad earth from the motor to battery
so if you can take note of the motor position when not starting as you commented that you can physically move the tilt then the motor starts ok
check were the earth lead runs to the motor as my friend had a simlar prob as his earth return it was bolted to the mounting brakets and after a bit of wear and plenty of grease in the pivots the motor became very lazy to start
this can be checked by measuring resistince from motor to battery
or if you can get it to play up out of the water on muffs run a jumper lead from earth on the battery to a earth spot on the motor ( ps not a moving part )
a bad earth is a bad as a flat battery
hope this helps all the best
I have a 50 hp yamaha 2st and recently had a similar problem.
Went to start and nothing but tick tick tick. Tilt/trim wouldn't work either.
Problem traced to the battery terminals. I had recently given them a squirt with inox, and even though they were clean and appeared good, they weren't. Gave a wipe with a rag and belted them back on to hear the engine fire back up.
hope this helps.
cbs
ryank
17-01-2007, 08:52 PM
hey mate
it wont go into gear when the motor is off unless someone is spinning the prop if you force it u can stretch your cables.
good luck
snasman
18-01-2007, 01:43 PM
Hey mate my 2 cents worth is you have a voltage drop problem I know you said that you have taken the terminals off the battery but did you clean them b4 you put them back on,they are the most critical connection in the vessel.
Dirtysanchez
18-01-2007, 03:48 PM
Sounds very much like the solenoid not throwing properly to connect the voltages.
The voltage drop you mentioned is nominal and good voltage when the motor is running, so look for a solenoid or even a relay
Good luck, keep us posted
trip01
31-10-2010, 08:43 PM
I have the same problem on our Yamaha F60 (2007). The only change that has occurred prior to the (intermittent) starter problem was that I disconnected and took out the batteries.
Please advise best way to clean the battery connections. IE where the high amp wires wing nut onto the batteries. They are via 4 way battery switch.
Kind Rgds
Dave
trip01
31-10-2010, 08:44 PM
I have the same problem on our Yamaha F60 (2007). :-?
The only change that has occurred prior to the (intermittent) starter problem was that I disconnected and took out the batteries.
Please advise best way to clean the battery connections. IE where the high amp wires wing nut onto the batteries. They are via 4 way battery switch.
Edit... Found this link...
http://www.wikihow.com/Clean-Battery-Connections
Tomorrow morning I'll give the baking soda a go. Then to TTD to buy a small wire brush & keep it on board.
Kind Rgds
Dave
FishHunter
01-11-2010, 05:06 AM
The starter solenoid always makes a ticking sound as it engages you just dont hear it when the starter turns over. I would bridge the 2 big terminals on the solenoid as a test. The one that comes from the battery and the one that connects to the starter.
If the starter turns over then your starter solenoid is faulty if it doesn't then the starter motor is faulty.
Its also a good dodge to get you going if such a thing ever occurs on the water.
I suspect Yamaha also use the starter solenoid to power the tilt trim which is why it wont work when the motor wont start which once again points to the solenoid.
trip01
05-11-2010, 08:15 PM
I've cleaned up all connections. Still it occurs intermittently.
Oddy's issue was a loose nut on the isolator switch. I have taken mine apart and cleaned it.
As per FishHunter, I'll bridge the relay tomorrow. The solenoid is the smaller cylinder attached to the starter on this model.
Kind Rgd
Dave
STUIE63
05-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I have the same problem on our Yamaha F60 (2007). The only change that has occurred prior to the (intermittent) starter problem was that I disconnected and took out the batteries.
Please advise best way to clean the battery connections. IE where the high amp wires wing nut onto the batteries. They are via 4 way battery switch.
Kind Rgds
Dave
my first suggestion is to get rid of the wingnuts and replace with hex nuts and make sure they are tight
Stuie
testlab
06-11-2010, 12:08 PM
Just an update, i did some simple checks when i got home today. I checked all battery connections and terminals from the battery to the motor - all are ok and clean.
I also did some voltage measurements on the battery.
Battery Voltage unloaded - 12.5V
Battery Voltage under electric trim / tilt load (lifting engine) - 12.2V
So it does not look like a battery problem. The battery is 70Ah capacity (i know alternator is ok also as battery voltage is at around 13.9V when running wot).
Like a lot of others, sounds like dodgy connections to me. Could be a poorly crimped battery cable, other high capacity cable or even the wire feeding power to the starter/trim switches.
The place to do your voltage measurements is not at the battery. You need to do them right at the starter solenoid terminals. Make a good connection with the + meter probe onto the stud fitted into the solenoid, not the terminals on the wires.
Ground the - probe to a really good ground point on the block or to the stud where the - battery wire connects to the engine.
One of these sorts of meters with hold function makes it much easier as you dont need to watch the meter all the time. Plus you can measure temp and so forth too.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1535&CATID=12&form=CAT&SUBCATID=546
The battery voltage won't drop much if the terminals/cables are bad as the load isn't getting to the battery - hence you need to measure at the engine itself and right at the terminal studs to eliminate a cable problem.
If the voltage measures 12.5V across the battery but the voltage at the solenoid terminals drops to say 9V then you have a battery cable or ground problem.
To find which, use the meter to measure the voltage drop in the cable itself. Put the meter (+) probe on the battery (+) and the meter (-) on the solenoid stud. Crank and read the voltage drop. It should be very low (up to 1V depending on motor and battery). If its more than 1V then the cable or connection or terminals are possibly dodgy.
Check the grounding the same way but connect the meter (+) to the ground stud/point on the block and the meter (-) to the neg post of the battery. If it reads more than (say) 1V then its a bad ground.
When chcecking voltage drops across the cables in the last two paragraphs, the meter should read near zero when the starter switch is at rest (either off or on but not in the start position).
You can fault find other aspects of the starter circuit using the same principles. For example... is the wire feeding (+) voltage to the starter and trim switches OK or is it dodgy and allowing an excessive voltage drop - so the solenoids aren't getting enough on the coils to operate properly.
Hope this helps.
PS: If my explanation doesn't make sense I can draw it and post a link. Just ask.
Willdoe
06-11-2010, 06:19 PM
One of the small wires on the energising circuit to/from the solenoid could also be broken inside the insulation or in the joint to the terminal lug. These can make and break intermittantly.
WARNING:
These are methods I would use, use at your own risk.
Ensure there is no fuel or fuel vapour about when trying these procedures as you may get a spark from any loose connections which could ignite your fuel.
Disconnect and ground the spark plug caps so the engine doesn't start.
To test : For the wire from the switch - disconnect from the solenoid and put a multimeter in the circuit selected to12V DC (might need small alligator clips to grip the wire and the terminal). Turn and hold the start switch in the start position and at the same time wiggle the wires right back to the ignition key. Voltage should be constant if the wire is intact.
For the earth wire - disconnect the wire from the solenoids earth terminal. Connect the multimetre between the disconnected end of the earth wire and to the block. Select the multimetre to resistance and wiggle the wire. If the wire is broken the resistance reading will change as you move the broken part.
If no multimetre available: Disconnect the spark plug caps so the engine doesn't start. Get a piece of twin flex connect one strand between the battery positive and the solenoid positive terminal. Connect the other strand to the battery negative. (See warning above)Touch and hold the other end on the negative terminal on the solenoid. The solenoid should click in and turn the motor while you maintain contact.
Disconnect the high tension wire between the solenoid and the starter motor at the solenoid end. Provided you are making clean contact with the wire you are holding against the terminal you should only here one click as the contact pulls in, any multipul clicking indicates the solenoid is faulty.
Hope this helps
Willdoe
06-11-2010, 06:33 PM
Quote: "Up until now I have managed to get the engine going again by a random combination of moving the trim level while giving it some help with my hand, turning the battery isolation off then back on and moving the tiller."
You need to isolate which one of the above of the combination helps by repeatedly only doing one at a time until you locate the one that permits a start. this may point you in the direction you need to follow up.
Willdoe
trip01
07-11-2010, 05:19 AM
Folks,
Thanks for the feedback. This is where I am at presently... (And the problem still occurs intermittently)
I have bench tested the starter motor & solenoid - worked every time (even with a low volt battery, the starter still popped up and worked slowly)
I have bench tested the relay - worked every time.
I have dremel wire brush cleaned all connections at the motor and batteries.
I have tested the command (ignition wire to the relay) This showed a slight drop in volts each time I tested eg... 12.60v then 12.59v then 12.58v.
Next that I plan to do...
Replace both batteries with 1 x D34 + 1 x D34M Optima's. http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/search/
Replace 3-4 metre long (and thin) battery cables with (thicker version) & new crimped & soldered ends.
For now I'll change over the wing nuts on the batteries to hex. Thanks for that, I'll keep you all informed as I progress. It certainly is interesting to learn how this all works.
Kind Rgds and Thanks to all...Dave
Spaniard_King
07-11-2010, 07:40 AM
There is 2 parts to the battery circuit + and - have you tested the negative side?? for an easy test simpy ÄDD"a jumper lead to the neagative side of the circuit and retest.
Have you tested the neutral start switch?
trip01
07-11-2010, 09:56 PM
Folks,
Thanks for the replies. I have found the join in the battery cables under the stern bunk. There is a crimp connection between the battery 6 awg cable and the OEM Yamaha cable to the motor. I reckon here lies the culprit. I plan to cut out the crimp joins and replace with an Anderson plug of the 120amp size.
Link http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/product/12503/sb120.html
Will report back on the outcome.
Tks & Kind Rgds
Dave
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