Cooling System Warning Alarm

[Smelly]

Hi Team.

Have some issues...

The overheating warinng horn stays on after about 1-2 minutes after start.

This happened before and after powerhead removal/clean and re-seal.

Water does exit from all water discharge points and oil is present.

Obviusoly, I cannot run any further until this is resolved.

I need your help in solving this one..

What next steps should I take?

Should I flush engine not in neutral but in forward or reverse throttle?


Smelly

[Chimo]

Hey Smelly #

What motor? Is it the OMC 110

Chimo

[Smelly]

Jonson 110 HP 1989

[Smelly]

What is OMC?

[Chimo]

Smelly\\

Your motor was made by the Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC)
now BRP

I may be able to help you with you overheat thing

Do you want to give me a quick ring on 0429 841161?

Chimo

[Smelly]

Hi Pete.

Sorry - the wife cut the phone.

TOday is BITCH day and she is on HEAT.... :P

Stand by for photos in your email - reduced size..

Thanks

[Roughasguts]

Chimo, that be your thermostat spring coil trick, with the stainless steel wiper blade back.
Your famous for it now.

[Chimo]

Hi RAG

Maybe, don't really know yet, you got any thoughts on it?

Chimo

[Smelly]

Chimo - have you rec. email yet?

[Chimo]

Hi Smelly

Yes thanks

Have sent one to you

Chimo

[Smelly]

HI again.

do u know what time you had sent it?

Not rec. - as yet...

[Roughasguts]

Smelly, chimo, only a small concern, is that oil coming out the tell tail, residue from the head job I guess.

Just wondering about the exhaust plate gaskets are they leaking gasses back in to the block, and with gasses theres oil.

And those gasses will cause a air pocket in the block causing that sensor to go off.

Either that or those rubber water deflection vanes have swolen out of proportion and blocking water flow.

Is there a air bleed for the cooling system on that model that closes when water is up to it.

[Smelly]

YTHanks Guts.

What is the tell tale?

Wher eis the exhasut plate gasket?

Where is the rubber water defelciton vanes?

Dunno about the air bleed?

Sorry - dont know much about these things...

Should I post the picis on this thread?

[Chimo]

Hi RAG

You dont have any diags of this motor / thermostast / therm cover , water pump impeller etc

Its way different to what what we fixed up previously.

Chimo

[Smelly]

pic1

[Smelly]

pic2

[Smelly]

pic3

[Smelly]

pic4

[Smelly]

pic5

[Smelly]

thanks guys

hope you can help

[Smelly]

thanks guys

hope you can help

[Chimo]

Smelly

Got that email yet?

Chimo

Did you change the water pump impeller?

[Smelly]

no email rec as yet.

no changes made to water pump impellor.

Where is this located?

And, would this cause the warnign siren to go off - warn impellor?

THanks

[Smelly]

tried to call - engaged..

[Roughasguts]

Geez, I'm lost on that motor, can't work out where the thermostat housing is, It's got a thermostat hasn't it Chimo.

Has to be a dome ally cover somewhere that houses the thermostat.
Can you find anything that looks like that Smelly.
Hopfully under that cover is the cause of your grief.
Thinking it would have 3 bolts holding the cover on and it be at the top of the block somewhere.

[Chimo]

Hey Guys

All help welcome :D

Wheres the thermostat? :-? got to have one somewhere


Certainly is different to the later beasts. :)


Chimo

[Roughasguts]

Hey smelly is the thermostat housing in Pic 2 between the pots on the right hand side Behind a bundle of wires.

I see a water inlet hose,( Bottom) and a temp sensor wire, Middle and thinking the thermostat is just above that sensor right side, and bolted to the side I can see one bolt but no dome cover.

Hope it's there otherwise i'm stuffed if I know.

[Smelly]

DUnno.... :-/

What should a thermostat casing look like?

[Smelly]

In Pic 1 there is that big roundish white thing - in between the two blocks.

Underneath this white dome is a compatment where both water hoses come out from..

coudl this be where the thermostat is in?

[Roughasguts]

Sure Is remove that there housing, and there should be a thermostat.
Be interesting to see what condition it is in.

Look for some rubber vanes inside there see if they have swollen up.

[Roughasguts]

Oh hang on it's not that big thing, be lucky if the thermostat housing is the size of an egg cup.

[Smelly]

It is directly underneath that big white thing - shaped like a fat sausage which feeds water to both heads..

is this the casing where the stat may be?

what does logic say - where shoudl the stat be - entry or exit to/from powerhead..?

[Spaniard_King]

round and round we go ;D

Garry

[Spaniard_King]

Guys, have we actually confirmed that the engine is overheating???

Smelly when you experianced the alarm did you place your hand on each side of the engine to determine if it was overheating and which side it was?

When the engine is running at normal tamp you should be able to hold your hand on each head for roughly 5 seconds before it will be too hot to keep it there.

its possible that you have a crook switch (temp switch to alarm) there is one on each head.

As you have stated there is good water flow from all orifices< I think you need to confirm that the engine is actually overheating.

my 2 cents.. for now ;)

Garry

[Roughasguts]

Can you take a piccy of it.

By the way nice pictures you should be a photograher.

[Smelly]

THanks King. Both heads were too hot to touch. Where could I locate the switch?

Guts - will try and get a pic now

[Smelly]

pic 1

[Smelly]

pic 2

[Smelly]

pic 3

[Smelly]

pic 4

[Smelly]

see how we go... thanks guys

does stat belong before or after head?

[BaysideMarine]

Shit guys...

Thermos in that engine are below the exhaust chamber "bulge" as seen in pic 3 and 4.

I'd be pulling the leg off and checking the condition of the impeller before pulling out the thermos.

Also make sure that th eoverheat sensor isn't malfunctioning. If you switch on the key and th ealarm sounds and the engine is cold then you have a sensor problem.

The sensor is observed as a tan coloured wire that leads into a fitting in one of the cylinder heads. The tan wire will have a black rubber joiner about 3 inches long that covers the join between the wire from the cylinder head and the tan wire from the main loom.

Cheers,

Nicholas

[Smelly]

Well done Nicholas.

I understand the stat shoudl be changed every two(2) years iresspective - I may as well change it out as well - what do u think?

Is the water pump that goes or the impellor - or both?

When u say "impellor", does this mean water pump?

Yes, when I do switch on the key, the alarm makes a dull sound - until ignition - then stops - then goes on and stay on after about 1 min of running..

How do u remove the sensors?

Thanks

[Roughasguts]

Poor Smelly you no wiser as to where it is are you. Neither am I, But like I said i'm stumped from the start.
BM would have to be right, unless he's got Xray vision, I think he's had one of these apart, can't beleive they would hide the thermostat behind that bulge.

So Smelly was there a stream of water coming out the motor somewhere
How solid, sputtering or a good stream.

I'm still thinking a blockage somewhere, maybe even one of the vanes from the water pump has blocked a gallery.

[Smelly]

Hi Guts.

Every day is a learning curve for me. But you guys are just great in helping!

From what BM was saying, the stats are underneath the bulge - not behind..

Good stream of water coming out of motor.

Do I have to pull the leg off to reach the water pump?

Smelly

[Spaniard_King]

Dug up a pic for ya

[Roughasguts]

Oh yeah you do. The water pump or impellor is just under the cav plate above the prop, But hold out on the water pump for a while.
Sure it will need to be done but, but i'm not convinced it's a water pump problem at this stage.

Sit back and wait for some ideas, Chimo hows your theory on this, would your Mod work.

[Roughasguts]

Nice one Spaniard King. Looks like the culprit, and first call of service to me.

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly, your waterpump is located at the top of your lower unit (leg).

When you remove your leg it will be immediately apparent sitauted around the drive shaft.

Undo the retaining bolts/screws and take the top cover off. Often on top of the top cover there will be a broad o-ring that sits on top of the top housing of the pump.

The impeller is a rubber star shaped device that fits inside the housing and is held in place by a "key". It runs inside an outer cup of stainless steel typically and has a stainless plate above and below it. The impeller is the major wear component however, over time the stainless sections
of the housings wear also.

I wouldn't be replacing thermos in my customers engines every 2 years as that would be rather excessive. Thermos only need replacing when the rest of the cooling system is ruled out and there is an overheat issue remaining. And even then it would be a guess between thermos (first check item) and clogged cooling channels around the head/s.

Yep, RAG I have had many of these apart.. From baby donks of all brands to the big donks.... Only thing I haven't had apart is a V8 OMC donk. They only made them for a couple of years and whilst ok on the race circuit (rebuilt every race) they were a serious liability on the recreational market).


Cheers,



Nicholas

[Smelly]

Well done King. Extremely well-laid schematic!

I presume Item 2 is our stat cover...shown in pics prrovided on Page 3 of this thread..

Where are the pressure valves located - it says I have to service these as well.

So, here is the plan so far.. Replace:
stats
pressure valves
sensors
switch maybe

Judging by the extreme salt build up I saw upon powerhead removal, it seems this engine has not been serviced for many years - if at all! (original paint still on screw/bolt heads on powerhead). Iff this is the case, extreme makeover I guess is the wayt to go..

Remember - this boat/engine has been sitting for at least 12 months - without use.
I bought it in Jan this year and has been in storage up until Sept this year.
Have not taken it out fishing yet..becuase I want ot be confident of the rig first.

I have already done plugs, filters, head clean...
WHen I started it again this morning - it sounded quite OK.

Smelly

[Smelly]

BM - how do i remove the sensors from the heads please?

[Smelly]

SO, guys, what is the plan - what should I do first?

[Chimo]

Hi Spaniard King and others and of course Smelly

Thanks for the Cross Flow V4 engine pic SK

Assuming there is an overheating problem which there seems to be, based on Smellys comments, and the thermostats themselves are not US / buggered and the water pump impeller is operating but probably needs renewing this OMC could be suffering the same problem that mine and a week ago # Big Puff Daddy http://www.ausfish.com.au/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1164593063 #Vee 4 115 HP also appears to have suffered from.
Based on the parts and system shown in the picture the problem I and others have had may be relevant here too.

In the later model V 4 engine '97 115 HP (mine) which is different BUT appears to have the basic principle of thermostat operation after much hassel I found that the cause of my overheating problem in one head ie one side was the result of part no 5 Grommet which is housed in valve body part 4 having different hole diameters to the grommet in the other side.

Therefore one head got hot while the other did not. #This may or may not be the case here but #too small a holes in the two grommets may also be a problem particularly due to the impact on flow with too high a spring pressure as well.

Sounds petty and verging on BS #but I fixed this overheating in one side of the motor which caused the horn to go off and activated the Engine Management Unit which cut the revs and made the motor run like a chaff cutter by making the holes in both the grommets #the same diameter. #

One way is to remove and fit new grommets. #My bushy method in the later model motor was to enlarge the small hole with a vee shaped stone on a variable speed drill and then file a dozen small cuts into the grommet to replicate the rough surface that permits the main cooling water flow to start passing around the outside of the thermostat #when the volume of water pumped by a "good" water pump impeller causes the springs that hold the thermostats into the gromets to compress to allow the high volume cooling flow to cool the engine.

What Rough As Guts otherwise known as RAG mentioned earlier in this story about the windscreen wiper stainless steel is the final piece in this bushmans outboard modifiction / overheating repair. #

The spring pressure on the thermostat into the grommet is increased if the grommet hole is small because the spring has more tension on it than originally intended / designed. #

As a result the thermostat cannot pass far enough into the grommet therefore the water pressure required to compress the spring to allow the thermostat to move back to allow the water flow through cannot be achieved by a water pump impeller other than a very new one and even then this is not a certainty.

My solution is to compress two coils of the thermostat holding spring (part 10 ) and make two clips from the stainless steel band found in windscreen wiper blades to hold two spring coils together. #This shortens the spring, reduces the spring tension and so allows cooling water flow to be increased with lower pressure needed from the waterpump.

In my case, on one of my motors with this grommet #and spring problem evening up the the cooling has also allowed that motor to now idle and run much smoother from cold. #

Prior to the mods it would not run smoothly from cold until it had warmed up. #This meant I had to start and restart the motor a number of times while the other one idled more smoothly and didn't stall even when cold. #This modification therefore is a way to get rough idling motors to run smooth and I doubt you will find it in the manual!

I am not sure with out seeing this motor in the flesh (which isnt going to happen) if this modification will do the trick but for what its worth I'll share my experience and hope it helps.

Cheers

Chimo

[Roughasguts]

Smelly, Not discounting what the othe guy's say on this motor, geez I didn't even know where the thermostat was.

I think I would remove the thermostat housing and check out all the salt build up, that thermostat is in a funny spot and probably sits in salt water most of it's layed up life. So like the rest of the motor I think it would be packed in salt build up, and theres no way that thermostat could open. So pull it out drop the lot in hot water, then clean it up maybe a bit of grease for the moving bits.

I get the feeling the pressure valve is No 6 in the diagram, no real need to pull out the sensors after all there working.

But listen to the other guy's that work on these motors, they have the knowledge, I'm just feeling around in the dark.

[FNQCairns]

Smelly, time to get a manual, Ebay has them on CD rom?, you have the OMC, V4, 110hp bubbleback looper, they are good engines dont wreck it.

Good luck with the thermo changeout, I think the factory manual states removal of the powerhead to change/inspect it, although I know it can be done without all that drama (fiddly... UUHHH!), just eye the above diagram and be very patient.

Some people who have owned bubblbacks in the past ;D, drill a couple of holes to access screws on the cowling and blank of with solid grommets.

IMO go with the recommendation above and check out the impeller OR do what I would do and back it down the ramp to see if it pumps - it very well might, have someone feeling the heads as you rev up to 1600 no more, if still not pumping let it cool for 20 minutes then push it into the water start it and go like a scalded cat to 4500rpm then shut down if not pumping- it proably will be pumping but I have not read your history - did you start it dry?

Actually I would do the last one first but political correctness and all that, but I would have had some idea of history first - go the impeller.

cheers fnq

[Smelly]

Great insight people - OMC, V4, 110hp bubbleback looper...what sort of name is this for a motor ;D?

Why does this the donk have a good reputation ?

I htink this thread will be invaluable to the next person who needs help in this area.

I now certainly have a clearer understanding of it all!

I have had boat/motor for nearly 12 months now - have not put in water yet :(

I have not started it dry but who knowswhat the previous owners did?? :-?

Chimo - I htink your email got lost in space - no worry..I know you were reading an waiting your turn to summarise today's events...well worth looking into!

Personally, I think it may be the impellor/stats because it has sat for so long - already I replaced a few perished items on the motor..

I still wonder how to replace/remove the existing sensors...? ::)

[Roughasguts]

Smelly the temp sensors are probably just push in, mine are retained by a rubber gromet and retaining screw.

If you pull the brown wire off, then earth the wire to the engine with the ignition on you will get the warning sound.

All they are is a bi-metal strip contained in something that looks like a watch battery, they are pushed in to a blank hole in the head.
No water contact just pushed in with white lithium grease.

When there set Temp is reached the bi-metal strip deforms and makes contact and earths out sounding the buzzer.

Not sure but might be able to get them out with pin nose pliers, very gently though.

[Chimo]

Hi Smelly

If it was my motor i think I'd be leaving the sensors alone at least untill the last thing. They seem to be working what causing the alarm!

There are other more likely rubber perishing things to fix first. (impeller) thermostat grommets maybe?

Again my experience only, but I have found I get a better understanding of problems by doing as little as possible ie one thing at a time and checking the impact / result before doing more.

This way I think its possible to get a better knowledge of cause and effect .

Similar analogy with your "boss"----------- saying sorry dear, its my fault can lead to better Saturday nites ;) whereas a lot of extra action / discussion can result in no Saturday nites and ultimately the worst possible outcome for a fisherman / boater ie the most expensive thing ever bought (divorce). "Smelly and I know what we are on about the rest of you lot don't worry about it"

Cheers

Chimo

[Smelly]

THanks for chiming in CHimo!

SHe's a tough nut to crack but I'll try and make her 'SMELLY' tonight.... :o

ANyway, when I take the leg of for the impellor change out, what else should I change or look out for when I have the leg off - what further gasket kits do I need, etc..

Smelly

[Chimo]

hi Smelly

I reckon FNQ is right with his suggestion that you invest in a manual / service book for the motor. Would be handy to say the least.

The other suggestion which I made to you earlier, to is to get the motor serviced by an OMC BRP master Technician and be there when he does it and ask questions.

If he is worth his salt he will not object to you being there. I would not take your motor, or any motor for that matter, to "a bloke who does Jonhsons too" If you going to pay you might as well get what you pay for.

It would pay to give the Master Tech who does the work for you whatever history you have as well; ie "the motor has sat for at least the last 12 months"

As someone else said ealrlier, they are a good motor so don't stuff it by taking short cuts at this stage.

I didn't answer your question about what else to look for when you pull the leg off cause I reckon you could be better off chasing up a recommendation for a good OMC man in your own Point Cook area, probably someone reading this may be able to drop a few names too.

Hell, I'm doing the GOM thing; sorry. ;D

I hope it all comes together for you including the Smelly Saturday nite ;D ;)


Cheers
Chimo

[Smelly]

Thnaks Chimo. Advice taken on board..

I hae just got back from my session onthe motor and read your post.

In the middlel of taking the stat cover off. >:( Sorry.

THat middle bolt is the bummer.

BM - how do I remove this damn middle bolt from the stat cover shown in this thread? :-/

The two other bolts are OK - just.

[Smelly]

BM.

You quoted..."Also make sure that th eoverheat sensor isn't malfunctioning. If you switch on the key and th ealarm sounds and the engine is cold then you have a sensor problem..."

This alarm does sound in this case - shoudl I proceed to changeout sensors?


Chimo - I am currently downloading the Johnson OMC Manual... (130MB to go..)

[Chimo]

Smelly

What are you like at drilling out and re tapping threads?

Hope not

the manual has to be a help

Good luck

Chimo

[Smelly]

HI CHimo.

Have not stripped bolt heads - YET. ;)

The amount of clearnce between the cowling and bolt head is weird!

I need to knwo what tools I need to gewt that middle bolt out...

Will keep you informed..

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly,

Pull off the plastic horseshoe shaped cowl that attaches beneath the lower cowl. This gives you access to the powerhead bolts and also a little bit better access to the thermo bolts.

The thermo housing is a shit to get off......

If you want to save yourself some drama, unbolt the powerhead, the shift shaft, and lift the powerhead off and work on it on the bench.

Only about 8 bolts and 1 gasket and you will have an easier time.

Re the sensors, I would wait till you have it back together again and running. As long as you know the impeller/pump is good, there are no restrictions in the water galleries and your thermos are new then run it, check its temp and disregard the warning tone.

If its running well and temp is good (I don't mean take it out and thrash the shitter out of it, I mean tank test it or run it on the trailer but reversed down a local ramp) then you will need to look at a warning system failure.

Cheers,

Nicholas

[Smelly]

Thanks BM.

I already have the two(2) side bolts loose and can get them out no probs. DO I still need to remove both powerheads? I have just removed (& put back on with new gaskets, etc.. ) powerhead to flush out water jacket and cyilnder cavity...a few hours there... :(

It is that middle bolt I cannot access....

How do I pull off the plastic horseshoe shaped cowl?

[Smelly]

Just had a look - does the horseshoe cowl have four M10's?

[BaysideMarine]

I think from memory they are 5/16 bolts and there will probably be another 2 or 4 from inside the lower cowl.

This then gives you access to the bolts tht retain the powerhead to thje midsection.

cheers

[Smelly]

FYI - I was abel to remove the thermostat housing - both stats look shot and will not pop in extremely hot water. time to replace?

[BaysideMarine]

If they wont open in bolied water then its time to replace.

Cheers

[Chimo]

Hi Smelly

Agree with BM / Nic, replace thermostats.

What are the grommet / thermo housings like? These impact on second stage cooling as you know.

You probably need to check / sort this out too as we discussed earlier.
They are not a real dear item; if you can get to them you could look at replacing rather than modifying. I guess it is also a question of what sort of condition the rubber items in the internals of the motor are in.

Have you done the impeller too.? Might pay to check the ss plates adjacent to the impeller too?

I think I'd leave the sensors alone til its all back togeter and running , it seems that they are doing their job OK. This has also been mentioned earlier too.

Soldier on!!

Cheers

Chimo

[Smelly]

Thanks CHimo and BM.

What sort of condition does the therm housing have ot be in to deem it in bad condition?

THe grommets appear ok but should i rpelace these as welll?

[Chimo]

Smelly

In the later motor you would woud look at things like

Are the bore diams the same?

Have they swelled?

Are they firm or spongy?

How far in do the t-stats sit, same for both?

Have to say I'm not familiar with the specifics of your 110 but assume the principles are the same as the 115

Others may be able to add comments too

Cheers

Chimo

[Smelly]

New water pump kit on it's way.

New tstats and grommetts on way..

Big weekend coming up for me!

ANy mor ebits on this shaft wobble ?

Should it wobble freely without the impellor locked in?

I don't htink it wobbled when the impellor was in..

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly,

The driveshaft is retained in the lower unit with a tapered bearing race sitting inside a cone and a shim or 2 and a pinion gear hanging below that sitting between forward and reverse gears.

With the lower unit off, the driveshaft of most outboards will have a degree fo wobble in them due to the design.

Don't forget, that when the lower unit goes back on the engine the cranshaft is where the top of the driveshaft locates and this ceases any lateral movement of the shaft.

Obviously without having the offending article in front of oneself makes it hard to assess but if shes been running well with no strange vibrations or noises or clunks or bangs then theres a better than even chance that things are ok downstairs.....

But, if your concerned then embark on journey number 3?? is it and strip the lower unit. Although you will need specific tools to do so, including heat, and it can be a difficult job.

Cheers

[Smelly]

Thansk BM.

JOurney number 3 hopefully will not start - I do not intend to strip driveshaft.

I buy all new parts in 2 days - giving myself a good XMAS present for MOnday - a great outboard that works without overheating anymore!!

Stay tuned..

[BaysideMarine]

Parts availability over the xmas period may be a bit dodgy so if there is anything you suspect you MAY need order it now so you have it over the break.

I ordered bits on Wednesday last week for a Yamaha jetski and they are overnight delivery normally. I stil dont have them yet......

And if I don't have them before I head off to Batemans Bay for xmas hols I will be really pissed....

Cheers,

Nicholas

[Roughasguts]

Jetski Pffffft.

Them things are a pain in the Arse, take a real boat with you.

[BaysideMarine]

RAG,

Its a matter of logistics.

This year, only wife and 2 young kids going away to Batemans.

So fishing is out and general boating/cruising is not going to be on the cards.

So a jetski for my entertainment is the appropriate choice.

Plus its an ocean bar there so the jetskiing is great.

And you should take that poor attitude towards jetskiers and relocate it ewlsewhere.... :(

I remember about 2 years back i was down at the local boatramp test running a jetski and the poor attitude I received from some people was amazing. I was normally at that ramp several times a week test running boats i was repairing or selling and when launching or recovering a boat I never had any grief.

But this one time I was testing a jetski, I had parked in my place on the jetty and gone to get my vehicle. I heard some comotion at the jetty but thought nothing of it at the time and reversed down the ramp (I was on my own as always) and another jetskier had moved my ski because some jetski hating moron was carrying on about mine being in the way???? as I was bringing my vehicle down to the ramp.....

I was going to front this brain dead moron (and I still kick myself for not doing it) and ask him if he believed that his boat ownership in some way was more important than my jetsaki ownership.

If he said "yes" and he was stupid enough to do so, I would have asked him to attend my commercial premises where the 25 boats (and 1 jetski) that I owned surely meant (using his fuzzy logic) that I was more important than he.....

Or should we discuss the time on a customers 34ft Mustang that ran out of fuel.... embarrasing for the owner as we were test running it to find a curious engine problem?? Another passing cruiser's skipper snubbed his nose at us when we asked for assistance to push us to the side of the Patterson River (about 10mtrs). A passing jetski took a line and pulled us across (at great physical effort for the rider) to the edge of the river so we could make fast.

Yes, many jetski riders are complete tools and I have my fair share of words to those doing the wrong thing but please do not put everyone in the same basket. I drive boats up to about 36ft (so far) and jetskis also. I am accutely aware of my responsibilities as a skipper regardless of vessel size or type.

Hey, Merry Christmas you north of the border types :) :) :) #

[Roughasguts]

Oh C'mon BM you had harsher words to say about the jetski rider.

I was refering to the Jetski, being a pain in the Arse after all aren't you waiting for parts.
Bet there not cheap either.

[Smelly]

BM - Parts should be wiht me by Friday at latest.

When ar eu back on line - after holiday?

Smelly

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly Im away from the 27th Dec to 10 Jan although I will be looking in on Fishnet and here over xmas hols. If you have any pressing questions that others cannot help with then leave me a pm as thats easier than trolling through the posts.

RAG, I got the bits......finally... Overnight delivery took a bloody week :( :(

2 high speed needle assemblies (needles, springs, washers and o-rings)..... trade price $50 :(

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

Guess that'snot too bad BM.

Sorry guy's off topic here but BM, just wondering you had that jetski quite a while I guess.

How much you reckon that thing cost to maintain for a year with how many hours run P.A.

Compared to an Outboard with the same Horse power running around the same hours.

Cheers Have Fun at Batemans bay, I likes that place.

[BaysideMarine]

Hi RAG,

might do a new topic on this.

[Smelly]

Hi guys.

Before I install the new impellor, I want to share old vs new images of the impellor and tell me what you think...

[Smelly]

Old 2

[Smelly]

New

[Smelly]

Obviuosly the blades are bent on the old - would this have an impact on inefficient water flow?

THere does not appear to be any wear marks or strech marks on the old either..

Thoughts?

[Roughasguts]

Nah the old ones good, there suposed to be bent, they wipe and seal in the housing better that way.

Just make sure you have the vanes bent in the same direction when you replace with the new one.

Otherwise it won't hold any pressure.

[Smelly]

so, i did'nt have to buy a new one hey???? :-(

[Smelly]

Question..

THe rubber spacer (in thermo housing) that holds the grommets shows scuff, pitted marks around the inner diameter of each grommet hole.

I have brand new grommets now, but now this scuffing on the mating surface of the rubber spacer may concern me..

THoughts before I re-install?

[Roughasguts]

You got any wet and dry, real fine stuff roll it up so it fits in side the hole and give it a light polish.

[Roughasguts]

He, He yeah you didn't need a water pump, but hows the housing if that is scratched, at the bottom of the pump, it's next to usless.

But yeah I thought it didn't sound like pump issue to me, but you wanted to play with the motor some more didn't you.

[Smelly]

You're right mate. I had to know what other suprises I may get...

If you saw the amount of salt caked onto the water jackets/head, I think you woudl do what I did too..

ANyway, what relationship does the scuffing onthe rubber spacer have to the housing at the bototm of pump?

I may take a pici.

What impact (on water flow) does the scufifng on the rubber spacer have on anything anyway?

[Roughasguts]

Airation, then cavitation = useless pump pressure.

But sounds like you had good pressure before, so i don't think it an issue.

[Smelly]

thanks fo rsticking by GUTS.

I have now polished all 4 holes - now feeling horney... :o

Anyway ::), maybe I should have got a new rubber spacer as well..?

SHould I put any lube on these holes beofre I insert these grommets? (feeling hornier)

Smelly

[Chimo]

Smelly
Re the water pump impeller (based primarily on experience with 115HPs )

Having had a number replaced, the old one always tends to look fine and I have argued with my guy as he has replaced them but the proof has been in the pudding or in this case the water flow.

When we have given the motor a run with earmuffs before and after changing the impellers the water flow with the new impeller has always been considerably better with the new one.

In the end I gave up and decided that more flow is better and I change em every service and the old one always looks fine : but it does not pump as well or at as high a pressure.

Once the grommets are in, preferably on a nice smooth unpitted surface, a la RAG; are the grommet hole diameters the same size?

This is where the issue arises of balanced water flows past each thermostat. Ie, when the thermostat gets pushed back by the water pressure (with the new impeller) against either the standard length or shortened spring after the primary cooling occurs with the thermostat itself opening which is more or less enough for engine cooling in cold water or when running at low to middling revs.

Presumably the bores of the grommets have the nice dimpled surface to get water flow happening past them?

So basically I disagree with RAG on the impeller, I suggest you change it now and at every seasonal yearly service.

Happy outboard mechanicing :)

Cheers

Chimo

[Roughasguts]

I would Vaseline would be the go, or some other white lithium based lube.

As for the other problem think of your Mother in law in the shower.

[Smelly]

OK guys..

problem!

THat little damn plastic key that fits into bottom of shaft.

How the hell does this stay in it's spot when lowering the impellor onto it??

[Chimo]

Speck of grease?

[Smelly]

does it lie on shaft and then impeloor is slid down?

[Roughasguts]

Yup press it in to the shaft, then slide down impellor. Don't forget those vanes in the same direction as the one you pulled out.

[Smelly]

I'm getting really pissed now!!!

of all the show stopper things - this is it.

My gasket glue is drying, the wife wants to go shopping and I cannot get this fkn thing on!

[Smelly]

Sure press into shaft. but then pops out as soon as you move impellor over it..

what gievs?

[Roughasguts]

Maybe file just a tad of the corner of the key, so the impellor gets a hold of it.

Not so horny now Huh,

[Smelly]

NO GO. I give up!

So close and yet so far...

now, i need to rip of gasket, and brake the fknn shft over my knee!

how do others fit this plastic f ucker on??

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly,

Which type key do you have? OMC have used both a narrow key that fits in a slot and also a key that sits on a flat on the shaft.

Plastic key you mentioned, so I suspect the flat on the shaft type.

With one finger holding the key on the shaft, slide the impeller down over the key. Make sure you have your alignment of the key and slot right.

Post up some pics if you can just to make sure you don't have an incorrectly supplied part or something else strange. Fitting the impeller should take approx 5 seconds.

Cheers

[Smelly]

HI BM.

flat on shaft with round curve - liek an airofoil.

tried your technique and the key simply slides out as the impellor is lowered down..squashing the impellor O-ring on way...

I have also tried the old key - NO go.

[Roughasguts]

I don't want to state the obvious but you have aligned the slot on the impellor, with the Key.

Does the old impellor fit back on no problem.

[Smelly]

HI - just got back from the XMAS shopping...what a bore!!!

WOuld'nt I rather be f king around withthis damn key...? :o

ANyway, yes slot is aslined to impeloer.

I cannot get the old key back on with either impellor..

Maybe I am not holding my tounge right??

[Smelly]

WHich way shoudl the key be facing?

[Roughasguts]

Round end in to the shaft, so the straight edge of the key slides in to the straight slot of the impellor.

Yep shoppings a bore.

[FNQCairns]

Use a dab of grease or vasoline in the keyway then place the woodruff key in under some pressure to create suction/surface tension with the key tilted down just a tad at the end that faces the direction the impeller slides toward it.

Then use upward tilting force on the impeller when each meet, wiggle slightly as the slide together,hope that makes sense, you will gain a couple of thousand's here. If you fail use less tilt on the key next time, only a fraction of tilt works best. Best of luck it can be a pain sometimes.

cheers fnq

[Smelly]

thnaks

still going..i try all this but hte key wont hold - just keeps getting pushed out - yes impellor an dshaft recess is aligned..

[Roughasguts]

The key does slide in to the impellor with out putting it on the shaft ??
Or maybe theres some gunge in the key way so the key don't get in far enough on the shaft.

[Smelly]

yes
no

should the top ofth e key when sitting in the the keyway be flush with shaft?

[Smelly]

[quote author=Roughasguts link=1165721567/105#111 date=1166787343]Round end in to the shaft, so the straight edge of the key slides in to the straight slot of the impellor.

Guts.

What do u mean round end in to the sahft?

there is no straigh tlot on the impellor....

confused about what u said her...

[Smelly]

........................ I DID IT! ................................. I DID IT! .......................

Once again, my lack of fundamental knowhow on outboards comes to the fore..... ::) ::)

I had the impellor incorreclty fitted onto shaft..upside down.

I assumed the recess in the impellor sleeve went right through to other side...

So, I was there trying to force this damn key into the face of the sleeve...

What a drama for something so simple!

Bm is right - 5 second job if the impellor is on correctly on shaft..

AAAAHHHHH dear.

Sorry guys for creating mayhem and blashopmusu remarks..

I just hope i have not damaged anything around the shaft base, impellor sleeve - during htis rampage. Would I of have?

Smelly

[BaysideMarine]

Dunno, did you hit it with a hammer???? :) :)

It should be fine.

You know, in on epost i was typing I wrote make sure the impeller is the right way around as many of them are one way fitment..... Then I deleted it thinking if I write thate which might seem obvious I might be insulting you... figuring that you would have noticed that.

Sorry mate!

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

Smelly your learning pretty quick, don't worry about the swearing I fell off me chair laughing about it.

I don't know what damage the key moving would have done.
Do you think you damaged a seal or O' ring mucking about with it.

[Smelly]

BM - I have exposed myself too far on this forum now to be insulted. I think most people onthis forum realises I am just a bunny with a furry smelly tail - but very keen to learn..

ANd, with a name liek Smelly - I woudl expect a few insults.... 8-)

PLease don't hesitate toput th emost obvious things on for me anyway..

I try and take in everything..BTW if you had included that one way impellor thing post a while ago - you could have saved me/us a lot of pain mate! :'( :'(

Guts..Glad you enjoyed my orgasims...after all - it makes for fun reading!

No hammer was used nor sharp tools - just bunting up the plastic key to the blinf face edge of the impellor sleeve..

[BaysideMarine]

Yeah,

I wish I didn't delete that line in a prior response Smelly........

Oh well, lesson learned, you will never fall in that trap again regardless of what engien you have in the future...

Did you grease the impeller before putting the top housing on?

Cheers

[Smelly]

I would Vaseline would be the go, or some other white lithium based lube.

As for the other problem think of your Mother in law in the shower.


Here we go GUTS - I may as well go the whoel hog...

Here is the mother in law (pic) - Have had many cold showers visualising 'THE MOTHER IN_LAW'.... :o :o :o :o

WHen thinking of MOM, I do the Homer Simpson froth when he thinks of Beeer.

[Smelly]

Outlaw

[Roughasguts]

Next time Smelly, set up a video link guess we could help you out but the entertainment value just wouldn't be there.

But what a great idea video link, I could sit for hours watching that with a carton of Beer in front of the plasma, bugger the usual stuff on telli.

[Smelly]

BM - not yet - have not got that far - as soon as i slid the impellor on - i ran in and wanted to let u guys know..

ANy other tips/hints on the water pump assy before I put back together - ANYTHING!

[Roughasguts]

Smelly I can tell by her smile she curses you.

[Roughasguts]

Just grease the top of the splined shaft that goes to the power head.
Clean out the threads on all bolts, spray Wd in to the bolt holes to wash out the gunge, then light coat of grease, on the bolt threads.

[Smelly]

hahahhaha - pretty scary hey!

Next time you mention 'vasoline', 'lube', 'mother in law' and 'shower' inthe same paragraph - be prepared for the wicked response you are getting now!

Re: video link - I was wild a few hours ago - and CHimo woudl atest to what I am about to say next..

greae/oil,parts over an area of back patio, heavy rain (but covered), walking in grease/oil onto carpet, swearing at wife, greasy paw marks over cupboards, keyboard, mouse, arms, clothes....and then she demands to go XMAS shopping.... - lets video link up next time..

[Roughasguts]

Great idea, me thinks you be a favourite on youtube.

Okay back to the motor, I want to see you drill out that busted bolt on your thermostat.

Hows that going anyway.

[Smelly]

Hi GUTS.

My twin brother and I once made a porno - with our girls - maybe we can put that on the utube..?

ANyway.. no broken bolts on the thermostat. I was able to successfully manouver my spanner in and out of the cowlings and undo the salt laden bolts...

I will also install the new kit - hopefully later today..

both stats were gone..

[Chimo]

Smelly

Glad its happening for you.

I was wondering what the computer keyboard looks like, thanks for answering that!

Other than that I thought there were enough cooks around the pot on this one and I was playing in NZ anyway.

Chimo

PS Hows the other #1/2 / marriage going? #Have you thanked her for the chance to go shopping with her to make sure the presents were right? etc

[Smelly]

g'day Chimo.

thanks. did no trealise that impellor was around the wroung way...

Other half marriage is fine. I tell you this..she puts up with alot of crap from me - married for 12 years now... I luv her heaps and she loves fishing too!


XMas presents - everyone else got one except me got one.... :'( :'(

TOday is stat day hopefully - so stay tuned for more comedy..........

Smelly

[Chimo]

Hi Smelly

Did you read the comments I made on the grommets / spring thermo etc yesterday. You may not as you could have been distracted by Xmas shopping and impellers ::)

Cheers

Chimo

[Smelly]

Yes I did read it once but will read agian.

Problem - I realise I have to bend the vanes ofthe new impellor the sam eway as before.

But how do i do this and fit inside that cup?

ABout 10mm of each vane sticks out past the OD of the cup..

THanks

[Smelly]

Chimo.

You stated.
"Presumably the bores of the grommets have the nice dimpled surface to get water flow happening past them? "

The grommets do not have dimpeld surfce ID. Is the dimpled grommet standard with OMC?

[Chimo]

Smelly

Did we establish that your thermostats are held in place in the grommets by a spring and that the thermostats have a tapered shape (like a cooking funnel) that goes into the grommets?

Chimo

[Smelly]

yes

[Smelly]

still cant bend those impellor vanes..

anyone ideas?

[blaze]

plenty of rubber grease, hold the pressure of the top of the pump onto the impellor and turn the shaft and the impellor will wind itself into the housing.
cheers
blaze

[Roughasguts]

Smelly if your still having trouble with blaze's method, pretty much the standard method of doing it.

Take the impellor off and, wrap some electrical tape around the vaves to bend them over and hold them tight.

Place the impellor in the housing and cut the tape, turn the shaft as you pull the tape out.

[Smelly]

HTnaks guys.

DOne!

QUite easy after you knwo that trick...

New water pump kit now in place!

Next - put leg back on and then re-install thermostat assy...

Stay tuned..

[Smelly]

OK.

Bottom leg now back on wiht new water pump kit.

Question - the two large phiilips head screws and 15mm bolt (in center) of trim tab do nto want to tighten up. Can someone please explain this one and why it may be so..

I have checked threads - not stripped.

THoughts?

[Roughasguts]

Maybe you got the wrong bolts, they might be too long.

that is if You can start the thread right.

[FNQCairns]

Smelly as an offside don't feel to bad about the problems you have been having.
Today I started to pull a 90hp yam leg apart so I could give it a full reseal and pump kit as I dont trust it's history. These unit's (I found out today) have a real dodgee brothers driveshaft seal carrier design it relies on a touch fit with a few sq inches of surface area against the leg casing proper - result broken carrier stuck in leg - true outboard corrosion horror story!
Not if it happens, WHEN it happens >:(

Yamaha needs their heads thwacked for this design! on an engine leg that gets submerged in salt water, I checked and all the current 3-4-6cyl use more or less the same design.

Be warned anyone with these engines at the 5 year old mark consider getting the driveshaft seals (only) changed out or just the carrier removed cleaned lubed and replaced with the old seals at the next impeller replacement for piece of mind, if your engine is around 10 years old, possibly too late- forget it, drive it until it chews water or pay for a near full teardown to replace just these 2 seals.

The above is actually a spit!

cheers fnq

[dogsbody]

Credit where it is due. You are one tenacious bloke i would have taken a hatchet to this job a long time ago. Keep up the good work fellas it's good to see you guys giving Smelly the time. Kudos to you all.

Dave.

[Roughasguts]

Okay smelly where the hell are you ? out fishing with it I hope.

Hope you didn't go out to the reef just yet, think you might be better off keeping in close for a few trips.

[Smelly]

Hi boys..time is 11pm Sat..

Doing the XMAS family visit barbecue thing....

Family off to bed - it's time for me to reek havoc agin...I hope to go through night again tonight and finish the stat assy re-install..

But first, these screws and bolts in trim tab...the screws ;Dwere not even removed - just loosened and obviuosly the bolt had to come out - but all three(3) are correct ..

Seems srange that the thread in all three fasteners will not catch..

Guts - woudl u like me to repair your Yami instead..? ;D Good luck!

[BaysideMarine]

Screws??? They are not original... Is there a foil fitted??

Trim tab is held in place by a single recessed bolt in the centre.

[Smelly]

I'll take pic.

it is the circular plate with numbers on it..

[Smelly]

Of course! THanks BM - appreciate for stating this really obvious thing - foil!!

These screws were for foil as well - and of course I had to secure lock nut in place to tighten screws from below.. and bolt was incorrect length but same thread..

THanks for keeping your promise about not holding back on anything. I should have realised..

Smelly

[Smelly]

Next problem..

Fitting the thermostat housing back in???

THese two(2) 66mm long springs that fit over the pressure valves...

How am I supposed to align the housing onto the powerhead when these two springs prtode out?

As I still have powerhead on, clearance is very tight still!

THoughts please?

[Smelly]

SHould the cork gasket for each thermostatbe on top of or underneath the lager gasekt used fr the whole rubber spacer?

[Smelly]

Can the cowling be dropped down on the leg at all?

It seems I cannot..

[Smelly]

Now,

I can't continue the job until I knwo how to compress the springs to get the stat housing in - with cowling still on..

[Roughasguts]

Them springs, im thinking gaffa tape to hold them in to position until the housing bollts have got a turn on the threads.
Hold the spring back with a screw driver while you release each spring.

I got to hold back now smelly cause i got no idea how your set up looks or works.
I'm sure the other fella's that know your motor, will help you out.

Hell yeah smelly you can work on my motor, but it ain't busted yet ,but i'll let you know when it is.

[Roughasguts]

Actually you should be able to hold them springs in the housing and press up against the power head and slide it down until the spring goes in to the hole. Do one at a time, but that's me imagining it, like I said no idea what it looks like.

[Roughasguts]

Okay last ditch effort, can you hold the springs back in to the housing using a zip tie for each one. Maybe hold the spring 1 or 2 coils back, when in place and a few turns on the bolts, snip the ties.

I think this way it won't get in the way of your gaskets.

Thinking the cork gasket be the very last one on, but don't hold me to it.
cheers,

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly,

Assemble it working from inside out. So springs in first, then thermos and valve body and hold all that in position and then work the outer cover and gasket in place over the top. Very fiddly, and make sure you hold your tongue in the right position and hold your breath....

The cork gasket goes on top of the thermo and then presses against the other gasket that is sealing the valve body and the exhaust housing.

Cheers

[Smelly]

THanks GUTS.

SOme great ideas there and I'll try them all.

picis to come now..

[Smelly]

pic1

[Smelly]

pic2

[Smelly]

pic3

[Smelly]

pic3

[Chimo]

Gee Smeely

Those springs look to be long!

Does BM or one of the the other pros have a comment on their length?

On the 115 OMC's I crimped a couple of coils of each spring to shorten it and reduce the pressure on the thermostats to get to 2nd stage cooling easier. As you know Smelly, it has worked for me on both those motors.

Chimo

[BaysideMarine]

Those springs are ok. They are not a particularly strong spring.

[Chimo]

Thanks BM, They are a very different to the ones in the later 115's which do take a bit of compressing and probably have a different temper to these springs.

If the cowl was off the re-aasemble would have had almost none of the challenge it now poses!

Cheers

Chimo

[Roughasguts]

Smelly you got a flat steel blade ruler, slip that on near the last coils, get the wife to hold at flat againt the power head.

Then when in position your wife slides it out, you won't need any lube, so settle down.

[Smelly]

I cannot tak ethe cowling off - or can I?

THoughts?

[Smelly]

Thanks Guts.

Will try..

[Smelly]

i have a concern that fitting the steel ruler and housing together in the same vicinty may prove difficult..

[Smelly]

I assume the pressure valves are in the correct lcoation (i.e. 2 center holes)..?

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly,

There are 4 bolts (7/16 I think) that hold the lower cowl onto the exhaust housing.

If you undo these you won't get the lower cowl off but it will then pivot a little and should give you the extra space you need.

Dunno why I didn't think of it before.....

So if you look into the lower cowl you will see 1 bolt on either side near the heads and another bolt either side closer to the centre of the engine.

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

Just on another note smelly I think you have done a Superb job, all that work and no busted bolts. Congrats with taking the job on, you threw yourself in the deep end. Should be pretty bloody happy with your self.

Think Chimo, is the new Dr Phil, you might seek further advice from him on making up with the wife, bet she's had enough of your mess.

[Smelly]

No luck.

the steel ruler is a good idea but does not hold the springs straight under compression and slides out..

I am trying not to take the powerhead off..

[Roughasguts]

You tried those Zip ties, maybe tie them to the steel rule stop it slipping off the springs, until your ready for it.

[Smelly]

THanks Guts for your commendations!! I can't do any of this without any of your help -so it is all a team effort. Will keep persiistign..

Now some more photos..

BM - I think I have already taken off the bottom cowling.

[Smelly]

pic1

[Smelly]

pic2

[Smelly]

pic3

[Smelly]

BM - is the lower cowl off?

[Smelly]

thoughts?

[Roughasguts]

Don't know smelly, hows about you put the gasketts on plungers then springs in to the power head.

Then hold the springs back by placing placing something like steel rule from under the peice you took off, the peice of cowl you can't take off should retain the springs and not be in the way until your ready to slide them out from underneath. you may need two steel rules, one each spring.

Give it a couple of dry runs see how you go.

Go and get some beer mate this job requires booze.

By the way nice bloody boat, I was imagining a bit of a junker, but nup very nice rig.

[Roughasguts]

Does the thermostat housing recess the springs, so they don't drop out.. So then you try holding it all together in the housing cover.

Line the springs up with the holes cause they be that long, and slowly feed the springs in while putting the thermostat cover in to position.

I know you only have two hands, and probably fat fingers but it helps if you have the bolts close by one hand to hold the cover and the other to place the bolts in.

The wife will have smaller more dexterouse fingers, you might have to call in a favour.

[Smelly]

G'day GUTS.

DOne it!

I got the twin brother over and we used all four hands - intertwined - like two(2) surgeons operating on a heart...

We actually inserted the pressure valves onto the springs first then compressed the spings then inserted the housing over top...

Our long thin piano fingers helped out immensly!

Many thanks for help on this one..

Now, NEXT problem...

AS we have dropped the cowling down a little, it's seal has come out and we can't put it back.

This is the seal betwen the cowlong and leg.

Thoughts?

Smelly

[Smelly]

BTW - here is a pici ofmy Haines HUnter 530 SLR..

[Roughasguts]

That seal has probably had it's day any way.
Does that seal just prevent water comming up the leg and in under the engine compartment.

If it does bugger it, put some silastic on the gap and a small drain hole just to remove water from the engine compartment.

Might be rough but, you can do that later me thinks.

[Smelly]

pic1

[Smelly]

pic2

[Smelly]

pic3

[Smelly]

THe lip of the cowling is caught and we can't push it abck up.

Basically stuck!

ANother roadblock...

What to do....?

[Roughasguts]

Amazing what you can do with hooks and picks like dentist tools.
If you got something like that you could realign that seal.

Tis a nice boat. Is this the brother that fell on his Arse pulling the steering wheel off.

Watch your back.

[Smelly]

THanks Guts.

Yes - it may be pay back time today....thanks for reminding me.. :o

We can't get any where.

As you look at motor from rear, the lip on LHS needs to be lifted back up over th eother lip of the leg.

Not happening.

Plus, all three cowling seals have come out..

Dont knwo how the hell they are going to be put back in as well...

I htought these seals woudl be for vibration loading...what is the purpose of these seals anyway?

Silicon may be the go..but how woudl they get fitted anyway?

THis damm lip is killin gus!

See th lip in pic1 - well the same lip is on other side but protudes out - we cant get it back..

[Roughasguts]

So that's the top part of the leg right, and that bolts in to the power head
But you never romoved the leg from the power head right.

So that seal only come undone when you removed that small bit of the cowl to get to the thermostat a bit easier, or did it.

So really it's only a weather seal, Im guessing here, not jamming the leg from seating in the power head or anything like that. Not jamming the thermostat housing ?

And it may well of been like that before you even removed the little bit of cowl. It could of popped out a long time ago during a previous Job.

If it's not fowling anything whack it back together, and hide it back behind that little cowl.

[Roughasguts]

It looks like something you could hit with the old ladies hair dryer to soften it up with heat, then whack it back inside the cowl.

[BaysideMarine]

Smelly, the u-shaped cowl that covers the powerhead mounting bolts has a seal that it sits on towards the bottom. You can see where it sits in pic3, it goes between the parallel ridges that are just above the painted area of the midsection.

That seal (like a large flat rubber ring) stops water coming up into the lower cowl. Ideally, if you can refit the seal around the lower cowl also it would be advisable but if you canot then perhaps leave it.

To get the lower cowl back into position just work it back and forth and side to side, after all, it dropped to that position in all your fiddling so it has to back to its original position also.

Of course, if you pull the powerhead off it will be easy to reset the lower cowl....... And it would have been a lot easier to have done the whole job.... :( :(

Cheers

[Smelly]

HI all.

Got it done. Need to hod tounge right i Ithink..

Now, putting it all back together...hopefully in time ofr XMAS day (tomorrow) to start herup. That would be my XMAS present..

Next time I take the powerhead off. I have defintely chosen the hard way..

I have a small concern about a little steel pin that I foudn on ground.
I dont knwo where it came out of - if it was from the motor or soemthing else..
maybe you can you help ID it.

It is about 15mm long by 4mm dia. Concerned that motor is all back together and I am holding this pin... :-(

THoughts?

[Smelly]

I am stuck - agian..

THis damn rod retaining screw - cant get it back on.

where excalty does it go???

and, how do u put it on ??

It like a large hair-clip..

[BaysideMarine]

What rod retaining screw??

I'm up for 10 mins max Smelly so fire away quickly!!

[Smelly]

It is not a screw per say - but likea large split pin that engages the shift rod.

I had to remove this pin from power head to free up the shift rod so I can remove the botteom leg..

[Smelly]

OK people. #Have the motor back together and starts and revs OK at idle.

Even though I now observe water coming out from all relevant holes at a stronger rate compared to before, now I do not see any water stream coming out of water pump indicator...

Warning horn did not go on once however.

What to do..now?

AS you know, I have put a new water pump kit in with new thermostat assy..

THoughts?

[Smelly]

Can I ask another dumb question.

Is the plastic nipple shown in this pic where I should be attaching the water pump indicator hose outlet?

[FNQCairns]

Yes probably although I cannot remember exactly, nomatter the indicator is not an important bit in the operation of the engine, plumb it up start the engine run it for 10 minutes at a fast idle 1000rpm all the while feeling the heads left to right and front to back, you should be able to feel the heads getting hot - a normal engine will never burn you in this situation.
I have a boilermaker mate who can leave his hands on these engines for as long as he likes even after a run at cruise speed!!

The moment it get's too hot anywhere for the normal person to hold their hand on it for a up to second and a bit - IT'S TOO HOT and shut down.

If it passes this test with or without the pisser working, time for a water test, the extra PSI through poppets etc on the water is sometimes needed to get it all going.
Every now and then check for temp with your hands because honestly once the thermister has triggered the temp horn the engine is too hot and problems can arrise from it.

cheers fnq

[Chimo]

Smelly FNQ RAG

Could there be some crap stuck in the tell tale / water pump indicator hose outlet?

Might it be an idea to run the motor at medium idle with hose into muffs and try some wire into the outlet before fittinght e hose to try and dislodge possible crap while there is some pressureized water behind it to flush said possible crap out?

Chimo

[wayneoro]

love this post just pulled the thermo out of my 90hp posts like this is how we learn mine was full of gravel kinda sand puting it back tomorrow cheers and good luck to us all

[Roughasguts]

Don't know that motor Smelly, first thing that comes to mind does motor have to be warm for the water to stream. ???????????

Or is the tell tail out let before the thermostat, therefore it should stream.

But anyway track down the outlet hose pull it off and clear it with your line trimmer plastic stuff, dig out where the hose goes in to the block as well.

It was streaming before wasn't it before or after warm up, with the muffs or only with the leg submeged.

[Roughasguts]

love this post just pulled the thermo out of my 90hp posts like this is how we learn # #mine was full of gravel kinda sand # # puting it back tomorrow # # cheers and good luck to us all

Wayneroo, glad your enjoying Smelly's journey, did you taste that build up maybe it's salt build up. Good luck with your future maintanance, jobs.

[Smelly]

Welcome aboard Wayne. Tag along and hope your access to your stats is heaps better than mine...

Yes, water was coming out of this inidcator before my work.

Heads are hot but no warniing siren comes on.

Q1 Does motor have to be warm for the water to stream?
Q2 How does extra PSI through poppets etc on the water sometimes needed to get it all going?
Q3 What comes first - THermostat regualtion or water pump indicator?

THoughts?

[Smelly]

I ran motor for about 1 min.

Beofre and after work - ear muffs.

Could it be that the old thermostats were blocked/not working and allowing water pump indicator to dispel water straight away or overriding stats???

[Smelly]

Yes probably although I cannot remember exactly, nomatter the indicator is not an important bit in the operation of the engine, plumb it up start the engine run it for 10 minutes at a fast idle 1000rpm all the while feeling the heads left to right and front to back, you should be able to feel the heads getting hot - a normal engine will never burn you in this situation.
I have a boilermaker mate who can leave his hands on these engines for as long as he likes even after a run at cruise speed!!

The moment it get's too hot anywhere for the normal person to hold their hand on it for a up to second and a bit - IT'S TOO HOT and shut down.

If it passes this test with or without the pisser working, time for a water test, the extra PSI through poppets etc on the water is sometimes needed to get it all going.
Every now and then check for temp with your hands because honestly once the thermister has triggered the temp horn the engine is too hot and problems can arrise from it.

cheers fnq

FNQC - What should come first - the horn or human touch sense ("TOO HOT!") before I need to shut down?

Smelly

[Chimo]

Smelly

Q1 Does motor have to be warm for the water to stream?
A I dont see why. It doesnt on my 115s, comes out after the chambers fill

Q2 How does extra PSI through poppets etc on the water sometimes needed to get it all going?
A Dont know #Whats a poppet #anything to do with foreplay?

Q3 What comes first - THermostat regualtion or water pump indicator?
A Water pump indication is first followed some time later by stage one thermostat operation ie thermo may open if water gets hot enough. #Smelly, you did heat the thermostats in a sucepan on the stove to see them open didn't you poppet?

Chimo

[Smelly]

HI Chimo.

Yes, new stats were tested in hot water prior to install.

I guess, you are all thinking I have fkd up somewhere..prob have.. :-(

Either water pump kit not installed properly and/or stat housing...

Back to square 1................................................. .................................................. ...........................

[Chimo]

Smelly

Exactly what is the thing thats concerning you ?

Chimo

[Smelly]

CHimo - no water coming out of water pump indicator - only concern now.

How do I tell if the water pump is working ok if I do not see water coming out of indicator?

[Smelly]

Smelly

Q1 Does motor have to be warm for the water to stream?
A I dont see why. It doesnt on my 115s, comes out after the chambers fill

Q2 How does extra PSI through poppets etc on the water sometimes needed to get it all going?
A Dont know #Whats a poppet #anything to do with foreplay?

Q3 What comes first - THermostat regualtion or water pump indicator?
A Water pump indication is first followed some time later by stage one thermostat operation ie thermo may open if water gets hot enough. #Smelly, you did heat the thermostats in a sucepan on the stove to see them open didn't you poppet?

Chimo



Chimo - can u clairfy your answer to Q3 - does the water pump indicator come on first or does stage one thermostat operation come first?

[wayneoro]

thanks guys # # there was no salt # #just gravel grade sand # #my motor was heating on one side # so when it blocked the water vol; from my telltale doubled my motor is a 89 # #i have a cd for 91 on # #cheers ps im going to try putting it back on with that black goo

[Chimo]

Smelly

Morning

Have you tried to clean the passage thru the telltale outlet with thin wire or wipper snipper platic as RAG suggested while the motor has the water running into it thru the ear muffs with the hose on flat out and after you have poked around in the outlet for a while turn the motor on while you continue to try and dislodge any gunk / crap that may be blocking the indicator. Water pressure with you poking may dislodge said crap.

As I suggested in no 3 the indicator on my motors shows water after a minute or so when the water goes in thru the muffs and the motor galleries fill The thermostats cannot open until they heat up (as per the saucepan) and second stage cooling (when the thermostats go back against the springs happens when the water pressure builds up to a high enough pressure.

Does that give you a better idea?

Chimo

PS Smelly ring if you want to

[Smelly]

HI Chimo.

DUmb Q - is the telltale outlet the connection that feeds the water pump indicator?

WHy woudl I not see water discharge now when before I did?

THe gunk/crap factor has not changed - or has it?

[Smelly]

Wayne - good find and well worth the effort - I bet many others have gunk/salt build up in their stats and not do anything about it - underestimate the benefits of sufficient cooling..

[FNQCairns]

Smelly for lot's of years outboards came with no indicator because they are not a nessesary item, they are included today because it keeps the great unwashed happy and an outboard with an indicator will sell before one without -marketing.

As I outlined above use your hands it is a step or two above the indicator in sophistication, if your hands say it is not getting hot then it is not getting hot and it is all working correctly, your indicator can never telll you that no matter how many times you look at it and your horn will only tell you it has overheated which when it does go on is too late anyway.



The PSI inside the head when underway can double or more depending on pump design, with a very minor problem like a blocked indicator this can usually blow it out, if it doesn't no-matter your hands will tell you everything and more than that will anyway. The indicator is pre thermo I am sure so useless as a tool, look for extra water exiting from the upper exhaust ports as a sign of thermo then poppets (at speed) opening also lower on leg when on the plane. If you feel it getting hot it is and shut down.

good luck however you go about it, hope all goes well.

cheers fnq

PS. try not to run it without the cowl in place at high speed.

[Roughasguts]

Smelly are you running in a tank or just muffs from the hose ????

That there new impellor will have to bed in a bit I would be inclined to submegre the leg in a tank or take it down the ramp, to fully submege the pump. That will help it prime up.

[Smelly]

Thanks guys.

I am only using muffs at this stage. I guess the ramp is the next step..

I am hoping GUTS is correct about new impellors bedding...

Has anyone else experienced the very first few starts upon new impellor installation?

DO they (new impellors) take a bit to turn water throught the indicator?

[Roughasguts]

Don't know with mine there ain't much pressure on the muffs as below the cav plate I need to mask the plastic grate otherwise water falls out there first.

Try masking up any areas that it drains from. But take the tape off when finished.

Where does water come out in yours the through prop exhaust ? if so water must be getting up there.

However mine will not spit water out the exhaust vent just below the cowl unless in the water or in a tank. But the water pressure stream will flow.

Good luck Smelly.

[Smelly]

WHy is the cav plate significant in this?

Water does come out beyond the plastic grate.

I don't recall seeing water coming out from the two(2) prop exhaust holes in leg.

Would the new impellor need more pressure to start off maybe?

Smelly

[Roughasguts]

If water comes out the cav plate that be the least line of resistance. Best to block it off with tape so your pump can pick up a decsent pressure.

There is one other possibility, is there a tube that went from your water pump, in to your power head did that have a rubber gromet, where you happy with how that lined up when putting the leg back on.

If that is not aligned no pressure will go to your motor.

Other guy's would know better than me on this one.

[Roughasguts]

On another note Smelly have you replaced the gear box oil on that leg yet. Be good to replace it and see if theres any water in it.

[Smelly]

THat rubber grommet was lined up OK when leg put back on..

Maybe I have to undo the leg again and check??

[Smelly]

Yes - new gbox oil put in.

[Roughasguts]

Mate take it down the ramp, an run it with the leg submerged, higher than the water pump.

Don't forget the 7 second temp test on the heads.

Just wondering if theres a bolt on the heads, not head bolt, but one for say a temp gauge if you could remove that and see if water is coming up to the heads.

[Chimo]

Smelly

Do the leg in 44gal drum thin. If you go to the ramp, depending how busy Cook is, you will get raged at this time of year!

FNQ is right about the indicator / water outlet. Hand on metal is going to quickly tell you if there is a problem.


Chimo

[FNQCairns]

Yeah Smelly take Rag's advice at least and back down the ramp to normal level and give it a go, the only real potential problem is when it over-reved at idle, did you have the muffs on every time?

Not being there it is not impossible you have scrapped the new impeller, but at the risk of saying it again just start it, check for temp with hands, nothing magic in this just basic physics it cannot overheat without getting hot and just because there is no water to cool the powerhead does not mean it will get hot without you noticing (at common sense idle rpm,s) if you choose to notice, there are no negatives just make sure the impeller has water no matter what you do, it doesn't need setting to pump enough water.

cheers fnq

[Smelly]

Muffs on every time.

How coudl I have scrapped the new impellor?

OK - will try that - give me a few hours - will report back then.

[Roughasguts]

Smelly any impellor turning dry in the housing, especially with high rev's and bone dry will melt the rubber in around 30 seconds.

That's why drown the leg to above the water pump housing in water, theres no chance then of melting the impellor.

Have you the line trimmer chord, to clear that water tell tail stream while your down the ramp.

[Smelly]

Back...on dry land and very sad..

Here is what happened.

1) started first go without warning siren and water coming out (healthily) of exhaust ports and water pump indicator - ran for about 2 mins in idle.

2) seaweed gets sucked through grate and warning siren comes on - I turn off engine and clear out weed - and wait for heads to cool for about 5 mins.

3) turn key and no warning siren goes on but will not start.

4) after 10 mins of turning, priming, no kick.

5) wipe my eyes and limp boat back onto trailer and off back home..

6) sitting here typing and thinking what could have been...

Sob Sob..

Smelly

[FNQCairns]

Seaweed!!!!!!!Mate buy a lotto ticket you luck must be about to change!

How many RPM were you doing when the horn came on? Idle I guess?

Next time you have trouble starting it, pull your lanard to isolate the igniton to ground then pull every plug and turn it over for 20 seconds then re-install plugs after a wipe on a rag fix laynard and try again without key priming should fire right up.

cheers fn

[Smelly]

slow idle when siren came on..

probably no more than around 6-700 RPM

[Owen]

Smelly,
Start with the basics.
It's always easy to blame your own work when you have been working on a donk.
To run it needs fuel, compression and spark.

Is the kill switch on?
Is the fuel line properly fitted to the engine?


cheers,
Owen

[FNQCairns]

That's good probably just flooded is all. all in all would you say a successful result?? Sounds like it to me, the exhaust port water you mention is a very important indicator.

cheers fnq

[wayneoro]

mate are you interested in selling the movie rights to this tread ? it has everything # # drama mystery suspence comedy tradegy # #i love it have saved it all so i can read it again movie could be called [smelly does a johno]

[Smelly]

What is a laynard?

How often do u guys suck seeweed throught the grates and woudl this restrict water flow and resulting overheating? Heads were very hot after this incident and I do not know is this would cause the heads to overheat.

Engine had started first go without any kill switch/fuel line issues.

Nothing was changed to kill switch and fuel line after motor had stopped and then tried to re-start.

Why did this engine not start again..?

Smelly

[Smelly]

HI Wayne - U like it hey?

Has gone on for a while but I am sure we love it!

What did you think about the Mother-In-Law bit..?

The cast has some great actors - with an unknown script and a climax ending..Stay tuned!

Smelly

[Owen]

Yes, the seaweed could cause it to over heat.

It probably just flooded.
I just mentioned the fuel and kill switch because they are easy to bump while you're messing around.
It may also just need to cool down.

Just read the first page of the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy ;)

cheers,
Owen

[Roughasguts]

Smelly how much idling did you do, was there much smoke thinking oiling up here.

If you get it fired up and take it to the ramp next time run it around 1000 rpm I find mine is cooler at that rev's idling seems to run hot due to slower water circulation, and yeah the plugs will oil up as well.

Just pull the plugs mate if there oily and spray them, the electrode with carby clean.

Sounds like a good result mate, just about to turn the corner.

[Chimo]

Hi Smelly

We need to get you wife involved so she can play too!

How about you grab a half 200 litre drum or a big rubbish bin (without rubbish / seaweed etc ) and park the motor in it so that the water level is well and truely above the impeller / cavitation plate. Shove in some planks on some bricks to lift the bin / drum up to get maximum water depth.

When its all stable, secure the hose so it can't fallout when the tap is on. Now fil the bin with water to the top. Turn off the tap.

Now how about pulling the plugs out and inspecting them for crap / carbon bits that could short the plugs and see how wet they are at the same time. Do the four. With them out and the kill switch in the off position turn the motor over a few times to air out the cylinders and blow any gunk / crap out too. Note we haave the leg in water bath so the impeller is in water.

The kill switch usually has a plastic key type of gismo attached to bit of cord, the lanyard, that you atttach to you so when you fall over or out of the boat the motor stops.

When you have done all this put the plugs back in and carefully reinstall the plug leads.

Have a good look at all fittings, cables, levers all around the motor touching each one in turn and wispering kind, encouraging things to them as you go.

Ask you patient, lovely, tolerant, understanding partner and the kids (I don't think you have mentioned the kids but surely you must have some) to also join in this blessing and moment of appreciation of "The Motor" Don't forget the M in L if shes still there too.

Re instal the kill switch so the motor will fire. Turn on the tap.

Put the motor in neutral, prime it a very little. Your in the great southland so you better lift the cold start lever too ( I think it has one of them) and turn the key.

So how was that? was it good for you?

Did it start, run, blow water out the right holes? Can we go boating now?

Cheers

Chimo

PS Maaate, we got to get this going soon.

[Roughasguts]

Heres a tip for next time Smelly if she don't start due to flooding, and your out a bit and can't clean the plugs.

Pull out the kill switch cord so your motor has no spark, lift the warm up lever so she's got plenty of revs, then turn the motor over for ten seconds, this will solve the flooding sucking the fuel through and out, and the raw fuel will clean the plugs.

Put the lanyard back on idle rev's and kick her in the gut's.
Don't be scared to give her up to 1200 rpm if she coughs and farts.
She shouldn't take long to settle down then.

[Roughasguts]

Well done Dr Phil, I mean chimo.
Yep flog the neighbours bin on rubbish night cut that down and were in buisness.

[Chimo]

Hi RAG

Good to see your on the program.

I think we need to get a few of you southerners moved north where people seem to understand things better!

You can probably get a grant for it too ;) #Bugger, weakend and went for the smiley.

Oh Well :D AGAIN !!!!!!

Cheers

Chimo

PS Has he got the bin / half 44 yet?

[FNQCairns]

Why did it not start up straight away? - gremlins.
These things can just happen it may never do it again, without further info which probably is not important anyway ATM best to say gremlins.

Anytime the horn sounds caution is the best policy, personally I think that now you have water at the exhaust ports you have a functioning pump, but do you have a functioning thermostat and poppets?? or some extra problem in the head with the sensor etc

Consider now a test on the muffs (or in a drum as per chimo), it's important to keep feeling the heads also VERY important to feel and note any difference in temp between the two heads - don't blow this off, you need to know if one and which one is the culprit or if both are, it's an important test but you gotta keep testing them with your hands at a fast idle like 1000rpm max and shut down when/if things just dont seem right.

So to test the pump you have done that and it seems on the surface to be ok, now to test the thermostat and to discount further complicationsyou need to do the above head test with your hands, if all ok in 99% of cases you are good to go with a wary eye on temperature untill you know the popets are functioning ok.

cheers fnq

PS Wayne LOL! #;D, ...... no sequel!

[Chimo]

HI FNQ

Whats a poppet?

Chimo

[FNQCairns]

Hi chimo, those water pressure valves housed with the thermostat.

cheers fnq