Cleveland Forum on Moreton Bay

[BAIT_MAN]

I congratulate Senator Abetz, Senator Ron Boswell and Andrew Laming MP on the Fishing Concerns Forum held last night at the Cleveland Sands Hotel and their genuine interest in the concerns of our local community in relation to rezoning and management of Moreton Bay.

The meeting was extremely passionate and was attended by in excess of 300 very passionate baysiders. #For those of you who were able to come, it was a job well done. #I truely feel that with this meeting we have started to make a significant difference as a collective voice and WE HAVE BEEN HEARD.

It has to be noted that although invited, representatives from the AMCS and State Government were noticably absent.

There was also a sizeable media contingent which included print and television.

As Moreton Bay is essentially a State Issue, we need to continue to on with this campaign and do all we can to get the attention of State Government, so keep talking to anyone who will listen. #Make your vote count at the polling booth when the time comes. Remeber we ALL FISH AND WE DO VOTE

I can tell you now that this is the first fishing fourm and it wont be the last. See you at the next one.

Regards Shane

[stevedemon]

Hi all
i would like to thank the M.P that turn-up to listen to our voices and concerns along with the organises and to the 300 people that showed along with the many people that voiced there concerns but we need more people fisher-persons, Charter boat industry, Tackle and Bait, Tralwers, we all need to stick together on this one as it was stated last night the Government is relying on the facts that we are fighting amongs ourselves. >:( :( :-/ :'(

We can nolonger afford to bury our heads in the sand as this is our time to hit the Governments and the Greenies and let them know that we are no-longer going to take this lying down, no government or Greenie group has the right to sell or close off public property, Water Ways, Estaurys, Bays or Oceans, if we as people do not stick together now and voice our anger and disappointment that these Governments sitting in there office with no ideas as to the real facts and not only taking away lively hoods but our rest and relaxation and spending time with our kids and families. ;D ;) ;D ::) :-* :-*

i for one still remember the first time i went fishing with my Grand Fathers, uncles and my father, and all they have taught me and the same thing that i have past on to not only my own children but also to my Step-children, spend time with them and my wife have all be good memorys along with friends if we do not act now then it will be just that MEMORYs, and we will have no one else to blame but ourselve,s for not taking action and speaking out. >:( >:( >:(

Do not just rely on someone else to do the job we all need to act your friends people you know as to who is who of Fishing tell them to speak out and let the Governments know we are as one are we are no-longer going to take it lying down and for those that think it will never happen think again it is here and right in front of your nose. :-[ :-[ :-[

Do not be and ostrich and bury your heads in the dirt or sand as this is upon us now the more people speak out the more the government bodies have to listen there are over 200,000 fisher-person and boaties in S/E Queensland send your voices and make them be heard that we a people not cattle that will be hearded into pens for the slaughter. :'( :'( :'( :'(

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-) # #

[stevedemon]

Hi all here is a copy of the hand outs from last night for those that say it is not here dont bury your heads in the sand
#
28 March 2006
Moreton Bay recreational fishing ban part of Gaven green deal
The Queensland Coalition fear recreational fishing will be banned in half of Moreton Bay under a secret pre-election preference deal between the Beattie Labor Government and the extreme Greens.
The Australian Marine Conservation Society has launched a campaign to have "at least 30 - 50% of Moreton Bay within reserves (protected areas closed to all extractive activities)" as part of the 10 year review of the marine park.

In State Parliament today, Shadow Fisheries Minister Mike Horan revealed recreational fishers feared the preference deal between Labor and the Greens in the Gaven by-election was based on the delivery of the Moreton Bay lock out.
"I have spoken to a number of recreational fishers and their representative groups who are gravely concerned about the possible rezoning of Moreton Bay," Mr. Horan said.

"The message I received is they support conservation measures in Moreton Bay but they are afraid the Beattie Labor Government will ban recreational fishing in half the bad , which will only increase pressure on the fishery in the areas that remain open.

"Locking up half of Moreton Bay would anger a lot of people, with a 2001 State Government recreational fishing survey finding there were 4 1.000 South-East Queenslanders, including 77,400 on the Gold Coast, who went fishing at least once a year.

"But the Beattie Labor Government has a track record in shutting down fishing in Moreton Bay, as demonstrated by bans introduced in four key areas in 2003, allegedly to protect grey nurse sharks.
"Fishers were prepared to accept additional restrictions on bottom fishing and night fishing to protect grey nurse sharks when and where they were most active, but the Beattie Labor Government decided to introduce a total ban, which was what the extreme Greens wanted."

Mr. Horan said the Beattie Labor Government w as not interested in common sense conservation and was only interested in attracting Greens' preferences at elections to ensure Labor won marginal seats.
"Farmers and timber workers have borne the brunt of Labor's environmental extremism in the
past but noel it's the mums, dads and kids who just want to go fishing or ride a horse who
are getting hurt." he said.
"The Coalition is committed to common sense conservation while Labor is only interested in pandering to the extreme Greens."
Media Contact - Mike Horan 0418 982 271 or Scott Whitby 07 3406 7430


Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

[marlinqld]

Just saw it on Channel 10 news..... good turn out by the looks of it

[gropeher]

Yeah 330 ppl,
however that is not enough support guys, Moreton Bay is only the start then I have heard the broadwater and gold coast are next on the agenda.
I urge any fisher man/woman to come and support us at the next rally as we will need all the support we can get, otherwise we all have to find new fishing grounds, and my guess is we will all be off to the GC etc as we are not about to sell our boats.

When your turn comes then we will be able to come and support you all also.
Please think long and hard, this is a serious issue and not a beat up as others have mentioned.

Cheers Ryan.

[gif]

I think I heard correctly at the meeting that they are defining of Moreton Bay as including down to the Broadwater. # So its not “next” its “included” # - all in one hit.

So I went to the EPA web site #- where you can download the map

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/parks_and_forests/marine_parks/moreton_bay/ #


It shows on this current map that the park currently #goes from Caloundra to the southern tip of South Stradbroke Is. # #But there is nothing to say that it will not be extended. # The title #“Moreton Bay” # does not control or limit the zone included. # Its just a convenient name. # There are no doubt plans to extend the park firther in all directions so they do it all in one hit.

Then again the Cruise Ship Terminal will kill off the best fishing in teh Broadwater because of a security zone.

There are only 3 Marine Parks in Qld, vis:

Great #Barrier Reef #- gone and zoned so that fishing has dropped by half and businesses gone broke etc #( $200 million in damage)

Great Sandy Straights #- probably a done deal but hidden in cabinet until after the State election, including major losses to rec Fishing but the same zones still open to commercial fishing #(no, I am not making this up)

Moreton Bay # - #Similar lock up plans #including estuaries and rivers - so do something now – or sell your boat before the price crash.

Gary

[Big_unit]

Great Sandy Straights - probably a done deal but hidden in cabinet until after the State election, including major losses to rec Fishing but the same zones still open to commercial fishing (no, I am not making this up)

Gary


Is there some chance that things can be changed for the GSS zoning ?

[gif]

Changing GSS

I believe so but it will mean a big effort and from now to the election

Large Public Meetings. I mean 1,000+
TFPQ candidate(s) sitting in sensitive seats with a well funded campaign
TFPQ extracting a publc statement from both sides that they will not ...... (fill in blank later)

The changes have been held back for after the election ( I guess)

The above is just my guess.

Gary

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

I can't understand why there was only a few hundred people at the meeting. Really, this is bugger all compared to the number who might be affected if all of this stuff is to come to pass. Is it because the vast majority are apethetic, or is it because they suspect this may be a load of crap put forth by a minority. ie: the opposition. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone with this comment, but I do feel it's worth a thought. If there are as many people fish the bay as figures suggest, then it would seem that the extreme majority are discounting this as scaremongering by a desperate opposition??? Are those hundreds of thousands all fools?

Cheers
Dave

[Got_the_Fever]

Does anyone know when the next meeting is going to be? I would like to attend the next meeting and get a lot more facts about the proposed changes. I can see a point in what dave is saying and in a way it does make some sense. Is the fishing party going to be putting candidates up for the next state election and if so, how can we help to get the message out and improve the chances for getting some wins under their belts.

It is time to stand together and put the beattie government on notice that we wont take this garbage anymore. There are more issues at stake in qld than just fishing closures and I for one would like to hear from the fishing party what other policies they have regarding them.

The time is dead and gone where we have some strong arm pushing us all around, I had hoped those days had died when joh lost his last election. Im not so sure about it anymore, what we need is a consulative government who is more concerned with getting the job done and preserving what we have, not just getting re-elected or making deals with the extreme fringes to maintain a power base, isnt it just another jerry mander they are creating.

Shane IM very interested in finding out about what the party stands for, if you could please send me as much info as you can to kelanya@optusnet.com.au I would very much appreciate it. Or if you like you can pm me and I will give you my mailing address.

Come on everyone let us all get involved and tell the government what is need is sensible conservation NOT this garbage that is flowing out of parliment at the moment.

Kel

[skippa]

Yes I did attend the meeting this week at Cleveland Sands pub.


What the rec fisho needs now is a VOICE otherwise your grandchildren might ask you one day ...

What did you #do pop when the EPA stopped us from fishing from the beaches, or collecting pipies or bait from the shore line ..... #

From what I heard this is what the EPA plan to do with our Moreton bay

* The EPA defines Moreton Bay as:
# the area from Caloundra with a line drawn to Cape Moreton down to the Gold Coast Broadwater..
# (the seaway) #It also includes 3klm offshore from both Straddies and Moreton Islands.
* They want a 30-50% closure within this area; of all forms of fishing and bait collecting.
* The areas of most interest to them are the southern bay Islands and the foreshore areas.

To me this could mean:

* No fishing on the shore line or up to 200mts off the shore line, including all Island foreshores.
* Effectively no fishing in the Pin area.
* No fishing the reef's of Peel Coochie Macleay etc
* No beach fishing on Straddie(s) or Moreton (or Bribie too)

We also heard from people who experienced the closures on the #southern NSW coast and most of here on AF know the effects of the closures in NQ.
This effects anyone who wishes to drop a line in Moreton Bay, regardless of whether you live in the Redlands, Ipswich or anywhere else. Flow on could effect people in boat building/selling, tackle shops, local fishing mags/clubs/web sites, to name just a few.

This, all in an area that has one of the highest boat registration in Australia.


It was also reported on the nite that the Grey Nurse shark closures where a result of a ...
2 HOUR SURVEY OF ONE GREY NURSE SHARK


So if your grandchildren ask you what did you do pop, what will your answer be...


Thanks to Andrew Laming and all concerned, for organising the nites events to bringing to light what might be if we don't fight for our fishing rights.


Cheers,
Tony #

[kc]

Shane IM very interested in finding out about what the party stands for

You can find out just about everything about TFPQ on the website www.fishingparty.com.au

Of particular interest you should take the time to read the party submission documents on the Great Sandy Straights rezoning and the GBRMPA review.

There is no doubt there is some "sensationalism" being built into this rezoning of Moreton Bay debate but the facts of the matter are.

In 2007 the bay is due for its 10 year review. Fact.
The state EPA wants a zoning system which coincides with the GBR system, same colours, same rules.
The green lobby is already pushing for 30 to 50% of the bay to be closed to fishing. Fact.
Labor holds power in every state and enjoys the preferences of the green party.

I leave it to you to decide if this puts the greens in a position where-by it influences the political will of the Government.

The best attended meeting during the GBR debacle was about 4000 in Townsville but it took until it was too bloody late to finally get the fishing public motivated.

In Brisbane you are learning from the experiences of your "brothers" in the North and making this a political issue long before the deals are already done.

Don't be dissapointed by the turnout. You guys are way ahead of the game and just have to keep hammering the point.

You can get a good result here but it is going to take a concerted effort.

KC

[stevedemon]

Hi all
I was there on tuesday night had my say but still wanted to say more but did not for the fact that it was well organized and did not want to see a riot, but my suggestion is that with all the fisho's on site and letting your mates know, send the message home to the Greenies and the Labor Government that we are no longer going to take this lying down.

Make your votes count, if not for the fishing party then vote Nationals/Liberals, but preferrably for the Fishing party if it is up to and running by election time (we can only hope).

The more we sit on our hands and keep our mouths shut, the more these greenies and Politicans are going to shaft us, were the sun does not shine, but the more us fisho's show that we are more organized the more they are going to listen.

We have to get the media and the support of our local M.P's from all areas around brissy to the Coasts both Sunshine/ Gold Coast and in between harass them if you have to make them listen to your issues and concerns lets get this going now or as skippa has stated please explain to you kids and Grand-Kids why can't you take me fishing of the Beach's in the boat or off the rocks.

Lets organize a rally not only on the water but also in front of Parliament with our boats and fishing gear our kids and families with the signage to send our messages home to the Governments that we are going to stick together that we are no-longer a disorganized bunch or beer belly anti-social loud mouths this also means working together with Trawlers, Charter Boats Skippas/owners and anyone to whom fishes whether one day a year or 52weeks of the year(I WISH).

The more there is the better for all concerned, yes i can hear the moans from here working together yes this will be the only way of sending Governments and greenies the message home.

I will put this same up on another board with a poll just to see how many of us are really concerned to this E.P.A and the closures remember it will not be just the Bay but it will start from Bridie to the Gold Coast and any thing in between and for those that think it will not happen it is here and it is in Black and White lets not let them get it to Colour

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

[hicksy]

Shane,

Has anyone got a definitive plan of what the EPA propose to do yet?
Or is it everyone just having a bit of a guess.
When do you think they will start calling for submissions etc?
Everyone seems to have their own spin on it.

Hicksy

[Adamy]

Is it because the vast majority are apethetic, or is it because they suspect this may be a load of crap put forth by a minority. ie: the opposition. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone with this comment, but I do feel it's worth a thought. If there are as many people fish the bay as figures suggest, then it would seem that the extreme majority are discounting this as scaremongering by a desperate opposition??? Are those hundreds of thousands all fools?

Cheers
Dave

To answer Daves "question" Yes the hundreds of thousands are "fools" - they are sleeping fools! I was down at the seaway the other day - the SOS people were out and good on em - I signed the petition - again... But there were these older couples - who came out and were enjoying a walk along our beautiful seaway - they loved it - fresh air - nice scenery - all that stuff but when they were asked to sign the petition - "Oh no it doesnt affect us - we're from South Australia" - the SOS lady's reply was classic - she told them that it was perfect that they sign the petition - because then the seaway might be there next time they came.

But oh no... the tourists knew much better... "Oh.... we'll think about it" - What the hell is there to "think about"? If you dont like the place - then get out - dont take another freakin step - hop back into your car and drive back to freakin South Aus-freakin-tralia.

So yes people are "fools" they dont know what they have till its all too late, they dont want to get involved, dont want to get their hands dirty, hope that someone else will fix the problem - after all its not that bad - people are just having a whinge - nothing bad could ever happen - its not like its even remotely possible that they could stop people from fishing - in places hmmm. say like the GBR... Oh but it cant happen here - we have too many boats - too many people would get upset bull-freakin-s#@*t , of course it can happen here - why? because people are fools they dont want to get their hands dirty... etc etc.

So... whats my point?? If you're not prepared to stand up and fight for your rights - while you still have rights to fight for - then get out of the way - shut up and dont complain IF it ever does happen - because if we dont do something now... its gunna happen.

Someone once said......All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

So people - fire up - get up and support those that are trying to support you - wish to god that we could divide the country into two sections - those that had a go and tried to stand up for their rights and those that said its all BS... its all scare mongering - it'll never happen - let someone else fix it.... Then after all the crap goes down - those that stood up for themselves get free passes to be able to use their rights and the others can stand on the shoreline (but not too close - you might see a fish) and just watch.

All those people who want to "think about it - or lets see what happens" will watch their liberties and freedoms slip away and sit there and whinge and remember the good ole days... who are they going to blame then?? If it happens and you didnt at least try to do anything about it - Blame yourself!!

Final thought..... cant blame the extreme greens.. at least their doing something about their beliefs - at least they're taking action - What are you doing??

[webby]

Its now time for Sunfish and BIAQ to get off their butts, and get the ball rolling, and not be left up to a few individuals.
The Boat SHow coming up is a good start for BIAQ to really get some names on paper, and that means every man, women and child and there dogs that walks through those doors or buys a ticket, should leave with a signature left behind.
Yes we can all do our bit, but these two governing bodies and their sub bodies, should be meeting now and planning for these supposed closurers and demands.
Yes there were plenty of Government heads at the meeting both state and federal, but there are elections due in the forceibile future and it was a good place for them to start their campaigns and gain a little support, i wonder if there were no elections forcast would these numbers of the above have turned up and voiced their opionions, time will tell.
Every tackle, marine, bait shop, seafood outlet, commerical and anyone affilliated with these should have thse petitions in front of the cash registers now, not months down the track.
Or some of them could find if the Epa/greens get there way, they could and will be looking for new employment.
It wouldnt take and i am willing to volunteer to stand at a boat ramp for a day and collect signatures.
So what are we going to do, sit back and say "She'll be rite mate" or get off our butts and act.
regards

[BAIT_MAN]

Shane,

Has anyone got a definitive plan of what the EPA propose to do yet?
Or is it everyone just having a bit of a guess.
When do you think they will start calling for submissions etc?
Everyone seems to have their own spin on it.

Hicksy

Hichsy
As to a definitive plan how long is a piece of string. All we know is that the AMCS is calling for 30-50% closurers to moreton bay. That said if we just sit with our heads in the sand they will close as much as they can because there is no one apposed to the closurers. We all now what has happened up in the far north. DPI&F own survey showed that there was a 42% downturn in rec fishing since the green zones came into force on the barrier reef and it has cost the federal gov $150 million dollars so far and it is still going up.
As for your question on submissions. This will depend on when we go to the polls. If Bettie calls a election in september and wins i would bet that they start the process in march 2007 and imperment there charges in 2008. Yes we will be asked for our imput but just like before it will go stright in the bin. If Bettie calls an election any time next year that is a diffent kettel of fish. IMO

Regards Shane

[BAIT_MAN]

Its now time for Sunfish and BIAQ to get off their butts, and get the ball rolling, and not be left up to a few individuals.
The Boat SHow coming up is a good start for BIAQ to really get some names on paper, and that means every man, women and child and there dogs that walks through those doors or buys a ticket, should leave with a signature left behind.
Yes we can all do our bit, but these two governing bodies and their sub bodies, should be meeting now and planning for these supposed closurers and demands.
Yes there were plenty of Government heads at the meeting both state and federal, but there are elections due in the forceibile future and it was a good place for them to start their campaigns and gain a little support, i wonder if there were no elections forcast would these numbers of the above have turned up and voiced their opionions, time will tell.
Every tackle, marine, bait shop, seafood outlet, commerical and anyone affilliated with these should have thse petitions in front of the cash registers now, not months down the track.
Or some of them could find if the Epa/greens get there way, they could and will be looking for new employment.
It wouldnt take and i am willing to volunteer to stand at a boat ramp for a day and collect signatures.
So what are we going to do, sit back and say "She'll be rite mate" or get off our butts and act.
regards

Weddy
As always no punches pulled here. Mate i need to tell you that the BIAQ have got off their butts and they put together the Reef Grief forum http://www.ausfish.com.au/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1152928466 . They allow TFPQ into the Tinnie and Tackle Show and now we have just been invited into the Boat Show and the end of the month. So you can see that they are starting to get involved. As for Sunfish and Recfish you are right they need to come out of hidding and show their hands.

Regards Shane

[Bowser]

Shane,

They also invite the QNPWS, who stand mutely around professing no intention to deny us access to the bay and professing that fair and reasonable discussion will take place before any decision is made. Forgive me for my cynicism but they also claim that the decision on grey nurse conservation zones was made amidst fair, reasonable and open discussion and that all views were taken into account. I just don’t seem to recall any discussion taking place and to add insult to injury, the group most largely responsible to the reduction in grey nurse numbers, divers, is given unfettered access to the zone!

The BIAQ must use their political and financial clout to ensure that the media tart takes the views of the majority into account whilst protecting the bay. We need front page headlines declaring industry and job losses unless Beattie declares his intentions publicly before the early election. This is the only sort of pressure, people voting with their hip pocket nerve, that he will understand. Rage at public meetings will only result in adverse platitudes in the media and bland acceptance of the closures by the ill-informed voting public. The subject must be forced into the public’s mind above the utter lies that will become the norm regarding water shortages & inadequate health and educational services that will be the gist for the media mill over the next months prior to the election.

[GES]

about it - Blame yourself!!

Final thought..... cant blame the extreme greens.. at least their doing something about their beliefs - at least they're taking action - What are you doing?? [/quote]

Adam
I wrote an email to Hon Desley Boyle MP, Minister for Environment etc and told her, in essence, that my family members, fisher-friends and #I would "not be happy Jan" if #draconian regulations or unrealistic closures to fishing in Moreton Bay were introduced by her Government.
Very simple but if she gets enough of those type of emails/letters it will strike home. That's what can be done on a personal level and then we can do as others have suggested here and elsewhere on this forum as a collective group of fishers/voters.
Speak NOW or forever hold your peace people.

GES

[Derek_Bullock]

Shane,

They also invite the QNPWS, who stand mutely around professing no intention to deny us access to the bay and professing that fair and reasonable discussion will take place before any decision is made. Forgive me for my cynicism but they also claim that the decision on grey nurse conservation zones was made amidst fair, reasonable and open discussion and that all views were taken into account. I just don’t seem to recall any discussion taking place and to add insult to injury, the group most largely responsible to the reduction in grey nurse numbers, divers, is given unfettered access to the zone!

The BIAQ must use their political and financial clout to ensure that the media tart takes the views of the majority into account whilst protecting the bay. We need front page headlines declaring industry and job losses unless Beattie declares his intentions publicly before the early election. This is the only sort of pressure, people voting with their hip pocket nerve, that he will understand. Rage at public meetings will only result in adverse platitudes in the media and bland acceptance of the closures by the ill-informed voting public. The subject must be forced into the public’s mind above the utter lies that will become the norm regarding water shortages & inadequate health and educational services that will be the gist for the media mill over the next months prior to the election.


This is what a Democracy is all about. Everyone is entitled to their say. Then at the end of the day the majority vote for the leaders of the future. Thats what happened in the last State and Federal Elections. Thats how we got Horard as PM and Beattie as Premier. Thats how we got all these rules and regulations that affect our fishing.

MAKE YOUR VOTE COUNT NEXT TIME


Derek

[PinHead]

I believe that Beattie will call an election prior to the end of this year and he will be basing his platform on the water problems...this will hide the health debacle and also other items such as the closures etc...he cannot go full term on these items..they are building the pipeline from Luggage Point to Swanbank and Tarong at the moment..pending approval of the recycled water votes they will then run a branch of this pipe into Somerset..he needs this approval to save some face.

The time for action is now and I believe the following need to be advised that their livelihood may be at stake:
Every boat dealer and manufacturer.
Every Marina operator
Every marine service centre
Every Tackle manufacturer, wholesaler and retailer
Every Boat Hire Operator
Every Bait wholesaler
Every chandlery store
etc etc

And of course..every boat owner and angler.

Moreton Bay runs from Caloundra to the Gold Coast...a huge area which encompasses all types of boating and fishing activity.

I believe that emails should be sent to all the above businesses seeking their support..if they are not interested in supporting this issue then perhaps boaties and anglers should not support them. If these business do not have email then a flyer mailed or delivered to them...included in same would be a request for a petition to be placed in their premises in a prominent location for their customers to peruse and sign if they wish.

Webby's suggestion of petitioning at every boat ramp also has merit..it would need quite a large number of people to initiate same but it does need to be done...I would make myself available for this.

I do not believe that sending an email to the Ministers office is worth the effort...the Ministers rarely read their emails...they have staff for this...if it is not of paramount importance it would not passed on.

Getting the attention of marine industries and retailers etc as well as the users of the Bay is the preferred way to get some action.

[Adamy]

about it - Blame yourself!!

Final thought..... cant blame the extreme greens.. at least their doing something about their beliefs - at least they're taking action - What are you doing??
Adam
I wrote an email to Hon Desley Boyle MP, Minister for Environment etc and told her, in essence, that my family members, fisher-friends and #I would "not be happy Jan" if #draconian regulations or unrealistic closures to fishing in Moreton Bay were introduced by her Government.
Very simple but if she gets enough of those type of emails/letters it will strike home. That's what can be done on a personal level and then we can do as others have suggested here and elsewhere on this forum as a collective group of fishers/voters.
Speak NOW or forever hold your peace people.

GES


Good work Ges!!! 8-) At the individual level we can all do a little - its like water in a bucket - every drop helps... (I was going to say something about it taking a lot of drips to fill it up... but then I thought I didnt like the implication ::) ) perhaps the drips are the greens - filling up their own poisonous bucket of vile ;)

And yes - we have to get the whole industry to act - we have to get organised and get professional - like our opposition... other wise we are gunna get creamed!