S.A. considers 3 year ban on snapper fishing.

[Ducksnutz]

Fellas,

Just read on the ABC app that South Australia is considering a three year ban on snapper fishing. Worth a read. Thoughts?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-07/sa-minister-proposes-three-year-ban-on-snapper-fishing/11393520

[Noelm]

There is "debates" going on just about every boating/fishing forum in every state, whether it gets implemented or not is anyone's guess, most deny that rec fishers catch many fish, but in reality, their catch is signicant, 40% is mentioned, if a "total" ban is employed, there will be a riot, then the rec V pro arguments will start, recs will whinge and whine, pros will stand firm with documented catch data, and there will be a compromise (in my opinion)

[NAGG]

I hate to say it ...... BUT ! :'( Commercial fishing is yet again the problem ! .

Each & every time that the Commercial fisheries are shut down ( or highly regulated) there is a corresponding improvement in fish stocks. NT Barramundi , NSW Kingfish , Tasmanian Orange Roughy , NSW & Vic Southern Bluefin Tuna immediately come to mind .

Chris

[Noelm]

I can't say that pros are entirely to blame, note that "we" catch nearly half the fish total! Kingfish in NSW have not exactly made a comeback, it's been years since the traps were banned, and you still struggle to catch a legal sized fish, don't get me wrong, I do agree to an extent, but, the "blame" needs to be spread across all areas.

[banshee]

Closing a fishery for a period of time achieves very little in the long term,I'm sure there's an obvious reason fisheries aren't all closed during their particular spawning run?

[Noelm]

I think what might happen is there will be some sort of ban to allow stocks to recoup, then much stricter bag and size limits (maybe a slot limit) and a reduced pro quota to help sustain the stock, the data shows stocks depleted by 87%, now, even if it's "fudged" a bit, that's pretty dramatic.

[NAGG]

I can't say that pros are entirely to blame, note that "we" catch nearly half the fish total! Kingfish in NSW have not exactly made a comeback, it's been years since the traps were banned, and you still struggle to catch a legal sized fish, don't get me wrong, I do agree to an extent, but, the "blame" needs to be spread across all areas.

Hi Noel

Agree that the Rec fishers play their part …… but 60% of the catch is done commercially - How many times more rec fishes are out there ?.

As for Kingfish …… there has been a significant recovery in numbers - however the size is a problem . This is where the regulations get it wrong . Kingfish reach sexual maturity at approx. 75cm & yet here in NSW the minimum is 65cm - WTF
the same crap happened with the Jewfish …… for years they had a stupid minimum of 45cm then raised it to 70cm which is still problematic as females reach maturity between 70-80cm .

Regulations need to be set around breeding size to allow for future recruitment - while ever we allow the taking of juvenile fish we will have a problem
Snapper - here in NSW we have a 30cm min …… yeh ok , they start to reach maturity at 28cm but realistically it might be closer to 40cm ….. There will be a problem

As for SA - their Snapper regulations seem to be much more aligned with the science with a minimum size of 38cm & a reasonable bag & slot limit……. but clearly that isn't working.

Chris






k

[Dirtyfuzz]

There is "debates" going on just about every boating/fishing forum in every state, whether it gets implemented or not is anyone's guess, most deny that rec fishers catch many fish, but in reality, their catch is signicant, 40% is mentioned, if a "total" ban is employed, there will be a riot, then the rec V pro arguments will start, recs will whinge and whine, pros will stand firm with documented catch data, and there will be a compromise (in my opinion)

I’d like to see a 3 year ban on all snapper fishing for 3 years along the whole east coast aswell,


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[Dirtyfuzz]

I hate to say it ...... BUT ! :'( Commercial fishing is yet again the problem ! .

Each & every time that the Commercial fisheries are shut down ( or highly regulated) there is a corresponding improvement in fish stocks. NT Barramundi , NSW Kingfish , Tasmanian Orange Roughy , NSW & Vic Southern Bluefin Tuna immediately come to mind .

Chris

Fitzroy river is a good example, still have mates living there that are sick of catching Barra and mainly target threadies now! The amount of tourism it’s brought into town and the dollars apparently is quite visible aswell!


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[BigE]

Storm in a tea cup ..... bit like the latte drinkers who thought they would tell the NQ people what jobs they could and couldn't have , well a 20% primary vote resolved that issue petty quick.
I would suggest it would a brave pollie who back themselves in to ban snappa fishing they must be polling greenpeace as their focus group again.

BigE

[scottar]

Typical political smokescreen for fisheries most likely. Propose something that will get everyone up in arms and then negotiate back to what you really wanted to start with, making yourself out to be good guys along the way for compromising.

[NAGG]

Typical political smokescreen for fisheries most likely. Propose something that will get everyone up in arms and then negotiate back to what you really wanted to start with, making yourself out to be good guys along the way for compromising.

maybe ....maybe not
however they appear to have a problem and they need a solution. The last thing anyone needs is to ignore the problem ..

chris

[Ducksnutz]

Having grown up in Glenelg South Australia and fished the artificial reefs off Glenelg, Yorke peninsula, Eyre peninsula etc I find it hard to believe rec fishers are the problem down there.

Even now having lived in SEQ for the past 20 years and seeing the growth difference in population compared to SA, it’s difficult to see how the rec fishos are the issue.
I head down most Xmas’s and this year we were blessed with great weather and I fished with family at Glenelg artificial’s and there were only a handful of boats.
If that same weather was here in Moreton bay, say mud island or Curtain artificial I can understand with the rec population maybe a contributing factor.

The last thing I’d say is, in SA, the coastline is far more exposed to the elements and don’t have the luxury of protected bays like Port Phillip and Moreton so days for trailer boat rec fishos are fewer and far between compared to SEQ for example.
I’m no anti-pro fisho but 87% decline without the growth population has me believing the issue is with commercial fishing. All in my opinion.

[NAGG]

Having grown up in Glenelg South Australia and fished the artificial reefs off Glenelg, Yorke peninsula, Eyre peninsula etc I find it hard to believe rec fishers are the problem down there.

Even now having lived in SEQ for the past 20 years and seeing the growth difference in population compared to SA, it’s difficult to see how the rec fishos are the issue.
I head down most Xmas’s and this year we were blessed with great weather and I fished with family at Glenelg artificial’s and there were only a handful of boats.
If that same weather was here in Moreton bay, say mud island or Curtain artificial I can understand with the rec population maybe a contributing factor.

The last thing I’d say is, in SA, the coastline is far more exposed to the elements and don’t have the luxury of protected bays like Port Phillip and Moreton so days for trailer boat rec fishos are fewer and far between compared to SEQ for example.
I’m no anti-pro fisho but 87% decline without the growth population has me believing the issue is with commercial fishing. All in my opinion.

Yep - that's pretty well how I came to the conclusion ……. You wouldn't think that the Spencer gulf would receive a lot of fishing pressure from trailer boat anglers ….. plus it is a vast area that makes Port Philip bay , Moreton Bay , Westernport look like puddles.

Even mentioning that there is an issue should raise eyebrows ….. because if these locations can collapse then what could happen in our own backyards.

Chris

[Noelm]

Banning pros does not always work, sometimes it does, there are places near me that have been pro free for decades and don't fish any better than heavily pro fished areas, but then, there are places where pro fishing was fairly recently stopped, and fishing is great, but, in the time pros were banned, artificial reefs and so on were built, so perhaps that played a part too?

[Watto79]

I think a total closure for a period of time is a great idea, it might give the stocks a chance to recover/replenish in some way..

As long as it is implemented across the board, enforced and fair to all see no problems with it at all..

[Bremic]

Banning pros does not always work, sometimes it does, there are places near me that have been pro free for decades and don't fish any better than heavily pro fished areas, but then, there are places where pro fishing was fairly recently stopped, and fishing is great, but, in the time pros were banned, artificial reefs and so on were built, so perhaps that played a part too?

I don't begrudge the pros supplying aussie consumers, I do begrudge the pros catching fish to send overseas reducing opportunities for rec fishers.

[Ducksnutz]

I don't begrudge the pros supplying aussie consumers, I do begrudge the pros catching fish to send overseas reducing opportunities for rec fishers.
100% agree. This is what I believe is the problem in regards to the 87% decline rate having lived and spent many years fishing SA’s pristine waters. I can’t see any other reason that the snapper stocks down south are a direct result in local fish being exported. As an example at Xmas, the cost of local caught was $50+ a kilo. I understand Xmas prices being inflated, but a fish that is a prized trophy fish for locals is a much bigger size than we get up here in Queensland,

Again, in my opinion, this is a commercial fishing issue that needs to be addressed.
Can anyone on here recommend a snapper fish farm similar with the Tuna/Barra farms as an alternative viable compromise that could be an alternative solution? Or am I dreaming that such an alternative sustainable fishery could happen?

[Noelm]

Fist farms are not exactly cut and dried either, the farmed fish have to be fed, to grow a (say) Tuna to the required size, takes a lot more than its weight in food, and a cheap reliable source of food is.....Pilchards! tonnes are taken to feed the farmed stock, but, who cares, they are only Pilchards? the rec fisho just goes to the shop and buys a block of them, but they represent a big part of the food chain, part of the "big picture" we don't like to see, we just want pros to stop catching our fish right? Unless "someone" comes up with a reliable, fully sustainable food source, that the farms will use, we are still taking from the natural stock of something, Snapper aquaculture is well advanced, then there is the consumer resistance, we all want "Wild" fish to eat, not farm raised, as I said way back, all sides of this needs to be considered, pro, rec, natural stocks, charter operators, the whole lot.

[Ducksnutz]

It would need to be on not just snapper then Noelm,
for instance, if they went ahead an indeed put the three year ban on snapper in SA, that would simply move pro and rec fishing on to other species would it not? King George whiting, Samson fish etc would cop a flogging.
People with invested interest such as charter boats and trailer boat fisho’s will still want to fish.
I don’t know what the answer is but a factual study into who it is that is taking the majority of stocks would be a good start down there.

[Noelm]

Agree 100% there is simply no easy answer, whatever is done will need to be dramatic, providing the available data is correct, and it's not going to be popular, but, the whole fishery needs to be addressed, because (as you say) stop people from catching Snapper, they target something else, fish restocking programs seem to give wild stocks a quick recovery boost, natural stocks of anything are finite, and need to be looked after for everyone's benefit long term.

[NAGG]

OK ….. I've done a bit of research & the alarm bells are clanging loud

Without a doubt - Commercial overfishing is an issue based on these statistics

2016/17 Snapper production

NSW (167 T) , Victoria (54 T) & Qld (72 T) totalled 293 tonne

South Australia 343 tonne

Not to be forgotten Western Australia @ 244 Tonne


Regardless of the biomass - that's a massive take when you compare it against the whole east coast of Australia & even WA


I think one of the issues going against farming Snapper is that they are slow growing - unlike fast growing Atlantic Salmon , Barramundi & Tuna which can be farmed due to the commercial viability. From memory a 40cm Snapper would be 5 or 6 years old.

Does Australia export a lot of Snapper ? …… I know we import a lot from NZ

Chris

[BigE]

I'm not really a snappa fisherman , but my last snappa trip didn't indicate any issue with snappa numbers.

FFS maybe some snowflakes just need to take some fishing lessons , only a millennial would expect that fish should find their boat jump in and fillet themselves.

BigE

[Noelm]

That's a shit load of SA Snapper hey? just to put a twist on that, the recs (supposedly) caught 40% of the commercial catch? that's also a shit load of Snapper! I really can't see a quick fix for this, of course "ban the pros" seems simple, they are fewer number, and take a bigger amount of fish, but, they are pretty organised and vocal, and banning them would not be easy, the rec fisho (us) are big in number, and take a fair amount too, but compared to the pro sector, we are just a lynch mob, ill prepared and fragmented in our approach, I can see that all of this is going to get messy, and have far reaching implications, I do also agree with some previous comments about announcing a total ban, wait for the hysteria to die down, then back down to what was really intended anyway, it's a pretty common management technique.

[tropicrows]

OK ….. I've done a bit of research & the alarm bells are clanging loud

Without a doubt - Commercial overfishing is an issue based on these statistics

2016/17 Snapper production

NSW (167 T) , Victoria (54 T) & Qld (72 T) totalled 293 tonne

South Australia 343 tonne

Not to be forgotten Western Australia @ 244 Tonne


Regardless of the biomass - that's a massive take when you compare it against the whole east coast of Australia & even WA


I think one of the issues going against farming Snapper is that they are slow growing - unlike fast growing Atlantic Salmon , Barramundi & Tuna which can be farmed due to the commercial viability. From memory a 40cm Snapper would be 5 or 6 years old.

Does Australia export a lot of Snapper ? …… I know we import a lot from NZ

ChrisThe interesting thing for me is how on fishing shows over the last few years they have said how good the snapper fish was in SA. Rec fishermen have size and bag limits similar to Qld, but also a seasonal closure.
Commercial operators have a min size limit, seasonal closures and a total take limit. I dont think SA use fish traps as in NSW, its all done with hook and line.
Banning all snapper fishing for 3 yrs will put more pressure on other species. Perhaps a 12 month total ban and then a reduction in the commercial operation would be better.
Who knows but if its this bad they better go something before it's to late.


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[Ducksnutz]

South Australia 343 tonne! Wow! That’s insane when you consider the population down there to the east coast of the country.
Considering they have closures too. Bizarre.

[Aussie123]

When you look at the break down data of the 2018 South Australian Snapper stocks report, the region is geographically divided into three biomass regions.
Out of the 3 regions, one is classified as depleted and the other 2 are sustainable.
The Southern region which covers from Port Phillip Bay to the Southern edge of the Spencer Gulf is sustainable with the smallest commercial catch take.
The middle region which is the Spence Gulf ( Adelaide Region ) is depleted and classified as Unsustainable with the stocks about to crash.
The Northern region ( North Spencer Gulf to the WA border ), which has the largest commercial take and more than 3 times the amount of the other regions is also classified as sustainable.
Now that shows that the depleted biomass and crashing stock levels is where the majority of South Australians live, Adelaide to Port Lincoln surrounding the Spencer Gulf.
Somehow looking at these statistics, the rec anglers must be playing a major part in this stock depletion or maybe some other causes as a contributing factor.
The other 2 regions are relatively sparsely populated areas compared to the Adelaide and Spencer Gulf region and the stocks are still classed as sustainable even though those 2 areas supply around 3/4 of the commercial Snapper take.
Until Fisheries around Australia step up and force rec anglers to keep detailed log books like the commercial sector has to every time they go fishing, we will never know the true impact that we are having on fish stocks.

[Noelm]

Log books would be nice, but us paranoid fishers would never fill it in properly, it would be fudged to suit what we thought would suit.

[Aussie123]

Log books would be nice, but us paranoid fishers would never fill it in properly, it would be fudged to suit what we thought would suit.

Log books will not be fudged Noelm if the system is run the same as the commercial sector where books must be filled out before the catch is landed.
By doing this, if you are checked at the ramp and your catch on board is different to your log book, you are slapped with a huge fine.
Any penalties would need to be big enough to deter people from fudging their log books and even more sever penalties for repeated offenders like gear confiscation and VMS tracking.
It would only need to run for 3 years so they can get accurate data across both good and bad fishing seasons.
This model of assuming the stock biomass from assumptions, phone calls and pathetic boat ramp surveys will never help out any fishery and will never give a true indication on what tonnage is being removed from the water every year.

[Volvo]

Like always here we are handing over the answer as we see fit :).
The answer to the problem is allready written in an envelope waiting for a consensus from both parties lol.

[Volvo]

Someone said we can no longer afford to feed the World with our seafood without losing it for ouselves.
Just need to see whats left overseas in a lot of Countries to understand it can happen here also.

[Noelm]

That's another issue altogether, lots of our premium fish is exported, and financially, why not? places will pay silly prices for our produce, and we import their shit to compensate, is there any comparison to a (say) fresh reef fish to a Basa fillet? a fresh Mooloolaba King prawn to a farmed in a cess pool frozen shit from Thailand?

[Volvo]

That's another issue altogether, lots of our premium fish is exported, and financially, why not? places will pay silly prices for our produce, and we import their shit to compensate, is there any comparison to a (say) fresh reef fish to a Basa fillet? a fresh Mooloolaba King prawn to a farmed in a cess pool frozen shit from Thailand?

Whether it be another issue or not , we can no longer allow the practice if our resourses are starting to come under threat . Be it Pillies the food chain of the bigger species or other will be no good looking back in ten , twenty years and saying "Hindsight is a good thing " .
Problem is evident ?? , nip it in the bud . Simple or should be :)..

[Volvo]

The Fitzroy River quote earlier on is a good example of what could be :)??.

[Noelm]

The Fitzroy River quote earlier on is a good example of what could be :)??.
Possibly, but it's not always the way.

[Volvo]

Possibly, but it's not always the way.

If you mean it pushes the impact further down the line to the nearest unprotected waterway well maybe yes . My way of thinking and my way only is if the nursery and the foodchain is protected which is mostly Rivers and lakes (foodchain and breading grounds ) Well maybe a good start in the right direction get the numbers back up again.
Limit the number of export to a level which is sustainable and if not then each look after their own back yard..
Population says its not sustainable for starters .
Fish that we once thought "F@%k That " is bringing in top dollar with some nationallities nowdays .
All n good for those on the selling side , but too much removal of one or the other species plays a Huge role at the end of the chain.
An example eg , remember as young fella weekends or leasure time for certain oldies down by the Beach and Rocks where a good side dish for the picnic to be sea urchins and chinamens hats scraped off the rocks . See how many close by there are now!!??..
Just giving this as an example of how things we take for granted can dwindle or dissapear slowly if not checked .
Black Jewie once brought in a very low resale dollar and still does for flesh but at $400 a kilo or thereabouts for the swim bladder makes it an attractable target hence quotas on what can be caught for resale.
Personally i wouldnt give two bob for big Black jew to chew on as i think its too chewie and maybe because weve been spoilt up this neck of the woods with other species .
Its a tough one and does need to be acted upon and sooner than later in my books me thinks and do think the food chain and nurseries is the first point of action...
Mybe why so many sharks are comming in closer n closer nowadays for a stickybeak for whats available to chew on??...

[Dirtyfuzz]

I'm not really a snappa fisherman , but my last snappa trip didn't indicate any issue with snappa numbers.

FFS maybe some snowflakes just need to take some fishing lessons , only a millennial would expect that fish should find their boat jump in and fillet themselves.

BigE

Only a baby boomer would think that “hey I still catch fish their is nothing wrong” [emoji23]


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[baitable]

Don’t waste your breath too much mate- the guy is incapable of lateral thought- not the first time I’ve seen his dribble.

There are so many self centered people on this page that only worry about themselves and not the next generation. It’s pretty simple really- fish stocks are not on the up, our population is increasing along with fishing technology. I’m pretty sure no one can put their hand up to say target commercial species like snapper, red emperor etc are in prolific numbers compared to 5-10 years ago. Don’t have to be a genius to figure out what’s happening.

[NAGG]

That's another issue altogether, lots of our premium fish is exported, and financially, why not? places will pay silly prices for our produce, and we import their shit to compensate, is there any comparison to a (say) fresh reef fish to a Basa fillet? a fresh Mooloolaba King prawn to a farmed in a cess pool frozen shit from Thailand?

Sadly - Australians & particularly conservatives champion those that can go out and make a buck
I'm not meaning to be political here but too often it is about how much money you can make & how fast ……. dig it out of the ground , harvest it , net it or chop it down ….. it's all a too familiar tune .
Our seafood exports are worth well into the Billions …… and everyone wants a piece of it . …… eg Tuna locally sells at $40 / kg …… Japan x 20 ( minimum)

But how do you tell a snapper fisherman that you can only make $10 / kg when he can sell it for double , triple , quadruple that .

Chris

[NAGG]

The interesting thing for me is how on fishing shows over the last few years they have said how good the snapper fish was in SA. Rec fishermen have size and bag limits similar to Qld, but also a seasonal closure.
Commercial operators have a min size limit, seasonal closures and a total take limit. I dont think SA use fish traps as in NSW, its all done with hook and line.
Banning all snapper fishing for 3 yrs will put more pressure on other species. Perhaps a 12 month total ban and then a reduction in the commercial operation would be better.
Who knows but if its this bad they better go something before it's to late.


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Where are those videos filmed ?

I can just about bet that they are not heading out of Port Noarlunga ……. they would be going out of more remote places like Arno Bay . No different than me being able to go and catch snapper in NSW - I still travel a few hours or more ……. & then quite a few Kms by sea if I want consistent results .

chris

[NAGG]

I'm not really a snappa fisherman , but my last snappa trip didn't indicate any issue with snappa numbers.

FFS maybe some snowflakes just need to take some fishing lessons , only a millennial would expect that fish should find their boat jump in and fillet themselves.

BigE

Millennials …… as opposed to logical thinking fisherman ?

So where did you travel to & how far did you go to get these fish ……. I see that you will drag your boat well up the coast to get your results ……. I do the same

But if you have to drive hundreds of Ks & run 50, 60 ,70 ks to get your fish then that indicates to me that there is a problem

Just sayin

Chris

[Lovey80]

A quick sniff around the literature shows the 2011/12 Snapper Stock assessment showed that record hauls were recorded and the biomass was sustainable and recreational fishos were worth 19% of the take. But now 7/8 years later it’s close to 40% and there’s a collapse on?

i hope SA didn’t use the same muppets that did our joke of a Snapper stock assessment in 2006.

[Lovey80]

Sadly - Australians & particularly conservatives champion those that can go out and make a buck
I'm not meaning to be political here but too often it is about how much money you can make & how fast ……. dig it out of the ground , harvest it , net it or chop it down ….. it's all a too familiar tune .
Our seafood exports are worth well into the Billions …… and everyone wants a piece of it . …… eg Tuna locally sells at $40 / kg …… Japan x 20 ( minimum)

But how do you tell a snapper fisherman that you can only make $10 / kg when he can sell it for double , triple , quadruple that .

Chris

Im all for people making a buck, but when it comes to fisheries, the resource is everyone’s. Commercial fishing licences are given out so that Australians that don’t fish, can eat fish. Everyone is happy. When there is a sustainable excess of a species, by all means sell the extra overseas to make the extra bucks.

But if it’s determined that restrictions are needed to maintain the viability of a stock then the first thing that should be cut is the exports.

[Lovey80]

Don’t waste your breath too much mate- the guy is incapable of lateral thought- not the first time I’ve seen his dribble.

There are so many self centered people on this page that only worry about themselves and not the next generation. It’s pretty simple really- fish stocks are not on the up, our population is increasing along with fishing technology. I’m pretty sure no one can put their hand up to say target commercial species like snapper, red emperor etc are in prolific numbers compared to 5-10 years ago. Don’t have to be a genius to figure out what’s happening.

Prolific no but Snapper fishing in SEQ is definitely better than 10 years ago. I think all the restrictions that led to 35cm MLS and a bag of 5 has had a big Impact.

You look at the issue too narrowly. Increased numbers and better tech but also consider we all operate on vastly stricter fishing regulations. Was it 25cm and a bag of 30 was the first restriction on Snapper way back in the day? 35cm and a bag of 5 is a vastly stronger restriction. No one will write it but since the decision to only allow one fish over 70cm (which I supported at one time). I’ve lost count of the times I’ve returned or had mates tell me they’ve had to return fish over 70cm back to the water because they already had their bag. At the depths most of those fish are found the mortality can’t be good even with a pierced swim bladder.

[shakey55]

Someone said we can no longer afford to feed the World with our seafood without losing it for ouselves.
Just need to see whats left overseas in a lot of Countries to understand it can happen here also.

Absolutely Volvo. I just came back from a month in Italy and Croatia. The quality (I can only comment on what I actually saw) was very poor and I would be buying from the local fish monger. What I saw in one local fish market was below standard compared to us, but as a local you can only buy what is for sale.

Can’t talk about fish mongers in Italy, but what saw served at the places I went was basic at it’s best.

Once back home we went straight for a great I’d feed if seafood and a walk on a sandy beach. No sand where we went, beaches are stones and rocks.

Had a fabulous holiday, but really missed sandy beaches and quality seafood


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[NAGG]

Im all for people making a buck, but when it comes to fisheries, the resource is everyone’s. Commercial fishing licences are given out so that Australians that don’t fish, can eat fish. Everyone is happy. When there is a sustainable excess of a species, by all means sell the extra overseas to make the extra bucks.

But if it’s determined that restrictions are needed to maintain the viability of a stock then the first thing that should be cut is the exports.

What like our GAS :P

I share your sentiments & we do need a commercial fishing industry to provide for as you say those that don't fish . As we know fish prices continue to sky rocket ……. but when a producer / wholesaler can send the best of it to Asian markets & command bigger bucks ….. they will. But yet I believe we are a net importer of seafood because once again it is about profit.

As for sustainable fisheries - I don't believe there is such a thing

Chris

[billfisher]

I hate to say it ...... BUT ! :'( Commercial fishing is yet again the problem ! .

Each & every time that the Commercial fisheries are shut down ( or highly regulated) there is a corresponding improvement in fish stocks. NT Barramundi , NSW Kingfish , Tasmanian Orange Roughy , NSW & Vic Southern Bluefin Tuna immediately come to mind .

Chris

Well the grass will be longer if you don't mow it. Eg if you banned rec fishing then the pros would be catching more, at least for the popular species where the rec catch is comparable.

[NAGG]

Prolific no but Snapper fishing in SEQ is definitely better than 10 years ago. I think all the restrictions that led to 35cm MLS and a bag of 5 has had a big Impact.

You look at the issue too narrowly. Increased numbers and better tech but also consider we all operate on vastly stricter fishing regulations. Was it 25cm and a bag of 30 was the first restriction on Snapper way back in the day? 35cm and a bag of 5 is a vastly stronger restriction. No one will write it but since the decision to only allow one fish over 70cm (which I supported at one time). I’ve lost count of the times I’ve returned or had mates tell me they’ve had to return fish over 70cm back to the water because they already had their bag. At the depths most of those fish are found the mortality can’t be good even with a pierced swim bladder.

There is no doubt that in this day and age - we need restrictions …. the technology (electronics / boats ) today demands it .

I'll probably start a shit fight …… but fishoes are generally a pretty greedy bunch - there is some change in attitude particularly from the younger fishoes but in general we have issues. Too often I hear boat owners talk about reward for effort ( basically a cost analysis) So with that mindset alone we have issues .
Then we have those that want to keep everything …… catch your bag of snapper - ok lets now see if we can bag out on kingfish or sweet lip / pearlies etc ….. totally within the regulations - sure but .

I'm not a crusader as I've probably kept more fish for the table over the last couple of years than I had over the past decade …… but I see it on my own boat where deckies will want to keep a just legal snapper when they already have 3 or 4 50-60cm fish in the box . I've seen undersized fish slipped into the ice box …… sometimes through in experience but mostly through greed. I've now got a mark on my cutting board that makes it easier to see if a snapper is of legal size because I've seen horrid attempts at measuring fish ….. just so they can put it in the ice box . …… some of these people have been fishing for decades & even own their own boats - worst still it's not isolated .

So even with bag ,size & slot limits we still continue to play our part in diminishing fish stocks
As for deep water released fish & the mortality rate ….. that boils down to education as much as anything ….... let's not even talk about upgrading


anyhow - that's observations I've made

Chris

[bluefin59]

I recently spent 2 months in Cooktown and the locals are ropable with the live trout fishermen that have moved up from Cairns because they had to travel too far to get the catch they want to ship overseas , they now take massive amounts out of the local reefs in the Cooktown area then truck them down to cairns and ship them overseas . The pros are fussy with what they send and if your at the wharf on the day they come in they hand out what they consider damaged stock ,not that I complained when they where offered and the same for the cray fishermen they just move further north . Matt

[Noelm]

Totally agree with Nagg, we are greedy, we want it all our way, that hasn't changed for decades, ban everything that directly affects us or pisses us off, especially pros, but, only the pros that catch "our" target species. I said this way back, it's a very emotive issue, and it won't just go away, the problems are wide spread, over fishing on our part, the professionals, and the "intruders" from foreign countries, add to that urban development, technology, ridiculously high overseas prices for certain things makes it almost viable to fish for the last one alive, there will be no light bulb answer, it will be a forever battle that's slowly being lost.

[NAGG]

Well the grass will be longer if you don't mow it. Eg if you banned rec fishing then the pros would be catching more, at least for the popular species where the rec catch is comparable.

But you don't mow your grass down to the roots either ……

Chris

[billfisher]

But you don't mow your grass down to the roots either ……

Chris

That's why they are talking about a ban.

PS snapper are doing will in Victoria and the parts of SA which share the same stock.

[Volvo]

Back in 2014 Missus and i Completed a Budapest to Amsterdam River Cruise we had on our Bucket list and to Add Desert to the trip i convinced the Missus to spend two weeks in Cyprus visisting her Brother she hadnt seen for yonks:) , I really wanted to do the trip as well due to my Passion for Photography and was really keen to visit what Monastries and Churches i could as there are some that date back a few years there .
One particular trip was to check out a Monastry / Church called " Apostolos Andreas" now held in the northern Turkish region of Cyprus.
Then it was in ruin after the Turkish invasion and let run down and quite sad to see in such a state , since then a lot of Money has been collected Worldwide and its been resurected with both Cypriot and Turkish labour.
Get to the chase :) , on the way back south we stopped at a nice little seaside Resturaunt by the sea owned by both Cypriot and Turkish Partners and ordered what we call a Seafood Basket :).
Fish were the size of what are protected this side of the deep blue yonder but nevertheless it was eaten as THATS ALL they have available unless offcourse you happen to be by the seaside when a fishing boat comes in that happened to fluke a decent size fish by surprise !!! . Tuna or Cod in most cases .
Looked forward to comming home and go catch a decent fish but was on Holidays so patience prevailed.
Couple other Instances where we sat at a Seaside eatery and had Fish for lunch or supper and both times it was what we would term as undersized Trevally or what they call "Tchipoura" which are simmillar to our Bream and if you can get past the bones its a feed i guess :).
Not nocking their way of living but over the years and overfishing its what its come to for their Seafood on the table i guess , hence i would hate to see it in years reach that state here ..
In my minds eye (lol) i sometimes think that the great sandy deserts of certain countries would have been nice , Green and lush in years gone by but due to weather or overworking the land for whatever reason tis now Tons of sand and heat!!??..
Nice Holiday though with some sadness from the 1974 Turkish Invasion which seen a lot of Cypriots lose their land and Homes and mostly you realise that we arent all that bad off here EY ;D..

[Volvo]

1500 Million China alone or is it more at present and India ?? , two countries here alone which need a hell of a lot of Fish to satisfy the pallette so i am all for letting them restock , rectify or whatever it takes to get their Seafood back on track .
Not being Nasty just realistic!!..

[Lovey80]

As for sustainable fisheries - I don't believe there is such a thing

Chris

Why not?




So even with bag ,size & slot limits we still continue to play our part in diminishing fish stocks
As for deep water released fish & the mortality rate ….. that boils down to education as much as anything ….... let's not even talk about upgrading


anyhow - that's observations I've made

Chris

What makes you such a pessimist that fishing regulations can’t make these fisheries sustainable? More so what makes you even think (as a whole) fish stocks are even diminishing?

At two species I can think of right away are more than sustainable. Since the regulations protecting the larger female flat head came in I’ve noticed a lot more flat head around. They’ve never been a hard fish to target, just drifting something past them usually gets them to bite. Snapper are also around in good numbers. Sure you are going to struggle in places like Moreton/Port Phillip/Botany bays, the Gold Coast and Sydney harbour for obvious reasons but the overall biomass has every reason to be rebuilding.

We we have to show a great degree of skepticism on fisheries research after what we’ve seen already and what we are seeing now but I think overall a lot of the measures make the fisheries sustainable.

[Ducksnutz]

...........

[banshee]

Sad fact is we are fighting over the crumbs of what was once a vast plentiful resource.It's probably got a bit left in it yet but ultimately we will all hand the greens the power to send us water skiing,

[scottar]

Sad fact is we are fighting over the crumbs of what was once a vast plentiful resource.It's probably got a bit left in it yet but ultimately we will all hand the greens the power to send us water skiing,

Not even unless electric motors get a hell of a lot better.

[NAGG]

Why not?



What makes you such a pessimist that fishing regulations can’t make these fisheries sustainable? More so what makes you even think (as a whole) fish stocks are even diminishing?

At two species I can think of right away are more than sustainable. Since the regulations protecting the larger female flat head came in I’ve noticed a lot more flat head around. They’ve never been a hard fish to target, just drifting something past them usually gets them to bite. Snapper are also around in good numbers. Sure you are going to struggle in places like Moreton/Port Phillip/Botany bays, the Gold Coast and Sydney harbour for obvious reasons but the overall biomass has every reason to be rebuilding.

We we have to show a great degree of skepticism on fisheries research after what we’ve seen already and what we are seeing now but I think overall a lot of the measures make the fisheries sustainable.

What might be sustainable today probably wont be at some point in the future ……. Fish stocks are under ever increasing pressure , More bigger boats , better technology , reliability , techniques etc etc etc …. that's undisputable . today we fish in conditions that would have kept most boats on the trailers back in the 1960's - we travel further & wider . So with this in our favour sustainability is just a byword .

When I was growing up - I used to see 20lb Snapper caught regularly off Sydney , The Central coast , Nowra …… My largest snapper to date were caught off the rocks during the 1980's - Today a 20lber is a absolute trophy & a 12lber is newsworthy ( I listen to HiTide)

But it's not only Snapper - It's Jewfish & Kingfish that immediately come to mind. Yes you can catch them but not in the same size & numbers that were available . I have a good mate who was a pro line fisherman & a highly accomplished state championship fishoe …… The Jew he used to catch within 100km of Sydney were something to behold .. ….. these days a 40lber is a rarity - yet they were commonly caught in the 60lb range .
Even a few years ago when I went to Lord Howe Island - A place that was revered for it's kingfish numbers & size …… I noticed that the size of fish landed mimicked what we are seeing throughout NSW ….. lot's of smaller & just legal fish - What I witnessed appalled me (I wont go into details) . My very first trip in 1991 a whole different picture existed ….. a lot of big fish & my second trip a few years later saw a decline in size & numbers. …….. This is a place with limited fishing pressure but the pressure is increasing and the take is also increasing.
All of this is not just anecdotal - but talking to industry types they do confirm what the scientists are saying ……. Eg Jewfish in NSW in decline.
I know I can go out and catch snapper & I probably haven't missed out that often when I've targeted them …… just in the last month we've boated several decent fish up at Port Stephens - but I find it fascinating to hear the comments around the cleaning table where a 3 or 4 kg fish becomes a point of discussion.

Yeh sure - flathead are a good example of an improvement - but as you said , they were always available in decent numbers & reach legal length in a relatively short period (18months) …… thankfully it was recognised that the big female breeders should be off the target list …….. but hey a 75cm flathead is still a relatively a uncommon catch.
My pessimism exists from what I see & hear … …. & yeh , I do have some scepticism with what the scientists are saying as well - it's the other sources that I'm taking notice of . Yeh sure we can see stocks improve with good management but it doesn't necessarily make it sustainable without drastic measures ( very limited take).
Right now we are seeing good numbers of SBTs taken by the commercial & amateur anglers …….. & this improvement has occurred only through significant regulation - Write this in your diary …… We will see another collapse

Chris

[lethal]

Interesting debate

Here are some stats on QLD fishers
https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/business-priorities/fisheries/monitoring-compliance/monitoring-reporting/recreational-fishing/statewide-recreational-fishing-surveys

[Volvo]

So good to see so many of the younger generation taking up this pastime :).
Always thought if you can get your Children into Sports n Recreation activities its part of the battle won in keepting them from other harmfull interests.

[efc]

Wild krill stocks are depleted from warming waters. Once they go the foundations will crumble and the whole lot will go in a matter of years. Fill your boots while you can. 50 years from now fishing will be like the horse and cart in Australia.

[Volvo]

Warming waters dont think is a new thing to the this Planet and survived
Population the size as its going isnt though.

[Dirtyfuzz]

Warming waters dont think is a new thing to the this Planet and survived
Population the size as its going isnt though.

Exactly! The elephant in the room that no one wants to debate on, restrict the population and everything else falls into place but governments won’t ever go for it as population growth is also economic growth (to an extent)


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[Noelm]

Don't hear anyone saying ban the Krill fishermen, thousands of tonnes are caught to make capsules that are supposed to help Arthritis.

[NAGG]

Exactly! The elephant in the room that no one wants to debate on, restrict the population and everything else falls into place but governments won’t ever go for it as population growth is also economic growth (to an extent)


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do you realise that the worlds population has jumped over 5.5 billion people in just 100 years

Chris

[Dirtyfuzz]

do you realise that the worlds population has jumped over 5.5 billion people in just 100 years

Chris

Pretty scary! And everyone needs shelter,needs food, wants products! I’m going to put it out there and say that the Chinese may have been onto something with the one child policy


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[billfisher]

There are plenty of reports of meter long kingfish being caught/ lost around Sydney recently.

[Dirtyfuzz]

Don't hear anyone saying ban the Krill fishermen, thousands of tonnes are caught to make capsules that are supposed to help Arthritis.

Is there krill commercial fishing in Australia?


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[shakey55]

People have raised the climate debate. This proposed 3 year ban has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Climate.

It’s all about over fishing and depleted stocks. We do need to do something from time to time - ban, bag limits, sizing, etc and if this means decreasing the catch of commercial fishermen for local or overseas distribution, so be it.

Increased patrols checking catch numbers and size wouldn’t be a bad idea. I regularly see people that have undersized fish, but not worth telling them when they have the knife in their hands.


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[Dirtyfuzz]

Seen some pretty heated arguments at the Southport spit when we used to paddle over T.O.S surfing, don’t want to sound racist but was always asians filleting bream that would have been lucky to be 15cm! The ole “speak no English” card usually gets pulled out!


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[billfisher]

People have raised the climate debate. This proposed 3 year ban has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Climate.

It’s all about over fishing and depleted stocks. We do need to do something from time to time - ban, bag limits, sizing, etc and if this means decreasing the catch of commercial fishermen for local or overseas distribution, so be it.

Increased patrols checking catch numbers and size wouldn’t be a bad idea. I regularly see people that have undersized fish, but not worth telling them when they have the knife in their hands.


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Not exactly as there hasn't been a significant spawning even in the St Vincents Gulf since the early 2000's. This suggests an environmental factor. Fishing just exacerbates the problem.

[billfisher]

Exactly! The elephant in the room that no one wants to debate on, restrict the population and everything else falls into place but governments won’t ever go for it as population growth is also economic growth (to an extent)


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It's just Ponzi style growth which does not benefit us as individuals. Eg look at Japan which has a falling population but respectable GDP per capita growth.

[BigE]

It really is amazing how far social engineering has come ..... it is almost a repent for your sins session.

BigE

[NAGG]

It's just Ponzi style growth which does not benefit us as individuals. Eg look at Japan which has a falling population but respectable GDP per capita growth.

But Japan has a real problem with an aging population - something like 1/4 of the population is aged over 65 & as it has a low birth rate and is pretty well a mono cultural society they have a big big problem .

Chris

[NAGG]

It really is amazing how far social engineering has come ..... it is almost a repent for your sins session.

BigE

Maybe it is …… or maybe it's a case of seeing the mistakes of the past & equating our fishing practices past and present as to why we cant match the results of the past ……
I guess it can be pretty easy to keep the blinkers on & go on fishing and not worry about the future …….. We've been pretty good at doing that.

Chris

[billfisher]

But Japan has a real problem with an aging population - something like 1/4 of the population is aged over 65 & as it has a low birth rate and is pretty well a mono cultural society they have a big big problem .

Chris

Well you haven't said what the 'big problem' is. They have 2.4% unemployment, excellent infrastructure and like I said respectable per capita GDP growth (higher than ours). What's not to like about that?

And we are a long way off the Japanese situation with a much higher fertility rate and mass immigration as well. Even if we had zero NOM our population would still grow for a couple of decades before stabilising and going into a slow decline.

[alleycat]

I used to fish the bay islands a lot for snapper using 4kg braid and plastics, very exciting times and some great catches, one was a 70cm snap on 2 kg braid, sadly my last 5 trips out after snapper have yielded not one single snapper big or small, as I tell people, you can only eat them once.

[Noelm]

So, why is there so many in NZ, big numbers taken to send over to us to eat, similar latitude and water, high number of pros and poachers (so I have read) yet Snapper are plentiful!

[Dirtyfuzz]

So, why is there so many in NZ, big numbers taken to send over to us to eat, similar latitude and water, high number of pros and poachers (so I have read) yet Snapper are plentiful!

Unlike the slow growing orange roughy that was pretty much decimated, not sure if it made a comeback after the ban, I’ve seen photos of massive boats with gunnel at waterline due to the weight of the haul


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[NAGG]

Well you haven't said what the 'big problem' is. They have 2.4% unemployment, excellent infrastructure and like I said respectable per capita GDP growth (higher than ours). What's not to like about that?

And we are a long way off the Japanese situation with a much higher fertility rate and mass immigration as well. Even if we had zero NOM our population would still grow for a couple of decades before stabilising and going into a slow decline.

Gee … I thought I made it quite clear

LOW BIRTH RATE
MONO CULTURAL SOCIETY ….. ( Limited Immigration)
POPULATION over 65 (25%)

…...... Dng Ding Ding Ding ....... we have a problem Houston !!!!!!!!

Chris

[NAGG]

So, why is there so many in NZ, big numbers taken to send over to us to eat, similar latitude and water, high number of pros and poachers (so I have read) yet Snapper are plentiful!

Chalk & Cheese …… population

NZ is Auckland centric …… 25% live there

The Hauraki Gulf (Auckland) is massive …….. you couldn't drive it via boat in a day .

Once you get out of Auckland - the population thins out big time ……….. no big regional centres in the north Island like a Brisbane , Newcastle , Wollongong etc

Chris;

[chris69]

May be all the Victorians have moved in and filled there freezers like they do up in the gulf to take home and sell, the snapper were so thick there in SA I've seen them catching them on spanners with trebles on them on I Fish.

[BigE]

what we have now .....is as good as it has ever been for almost everything in life. i would never go backwards to the "good?old days"

BigE

[billfisher]

Gee … I thought I made it quite clear

LOW BIRTH RATE
MONO CULTURAL SOCIETY ….. ( Limited Immigration)
POPULATION over 65 (25%)

…...... Dng Ding Ding Ding ....... we have a problem Houston !!!!!!!!

Chris

You have just bypassed my points that things on the ground are actually quite good. Also being a monoculture is not actually a problem.

You are just regurgitating media reports that Japan is some sort of basket case with zero insight or knowledge on your part.

[NAGG]

You have just bypassed my points that things on the ground are actually quite good. Also being a monoculture is not actually a problem.

You are just regurgitating media reports that Japan is some sort of basket case with zero insight or knowledge on your part.

I'm not regurgitating anything - I'm stating some well known facts about Japan

So - how is there not a problem when less people will be employed as more retire , a low birth rate …… less people will be working. And very little in the way of immigration to boost the workforce , population etc - even the solvency of the public pension plan is a concern & why they will be raising their tax's . Government debt is huge as government spending has been keeping growth to a modest 1.5% ( thereabouts)
What I am talking about is where things are heading - but if you do a little bit of research you'll see that over the past few months things are less rosy than they were earlier this year .
But we are off topic here.

chris

[billfisher]

I'm not regurgitating anything - I'm stating some well known facts about Japan

So - how is there not a problem when less people will be employed as more retire , a low birth rate …… less people will be working. And very little in the way of immigration to boost the workforce , population etc - even the solvency of the public pension plan is a concern & why they will be raising their tax's . Government debt is huge as government spending has been keeping growth to a modest 1.5% ( thereabouts)
What I am talking about is where things are heading - but if you do a little bit of research you'll see that over the past few months things are less rosy than they were earlier this year .
But we are off topic here.

chris

There overall debt is not that large at about 60% of GDP. And the latest news is GDP grew by 0.4% which beat expectations and is better than we are doing when you factor in population growth (we are in per capita recession).

Also you are shape shifting - I didn't say there was 'no problem', just that an ageing population is not a 'big problem' as you described it. It's just a challenge which they can easily manage. And you don't seem to have realised that with 127 million living on two relatively small islands they are overpopulated and further population growth would be a pretty dumb way to grow the economy. In any case any effect on the age structure from immigration is small and temporary for the simple reason that immigrants will age too.


https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/09/28/commentary/japan-commentary/japans-successful-economic-model/#.XVUBffZuK1t

[TheRealPoMo]

Yeah so anyway...worried about declining stocks? Simple - drastically reduce bag limits.
Rec vs Pro ? Well if you take more than you need to feed your immediate family that day, you are not a Rec.
Rec's go to enjoy a day out and just enjoy being there.
If you go to fill a freezer and feed the neighbors and their cat, you are a Pro.
Take what you need and only that.

Probably making few friends here on a forum that regularly displays dozens of fish spread out in someone's backyard...which is ironic alongside this thread.

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[chris69]

I thought the stocks were on the rebound after they stopped scallop dredging so what's happened since then ,there bag limits down there are not over the top.

[NAGG]

There overall debt is not that large at about 60% of GDP. And the latest news is GDP grew by 0.4% which beat expectations and is better than we are doing when you factor in population growth (we are in per capita recession).

Also you are shape shifting - I didn't say there was 'no problem', just that an ageing population is not a 'big problem' as you described it. It's just a challenge which they can easily manage. And you don't seem to have realised that with 127 million living on two relatively small islands they are overpopulated and further population growth would be a pretty dumb way to grow the economy. In any case any effect on the age structure from immigration is small and temporary for the simple reason that immigrants will age too.


https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/09/28/commentary/japan-commentary/japans-successful-economic-model/#.XVUBffZuK1t

Sorry Billfisher but where are you getting your figures from ?
japan has had government debt to GDP ration of in excess of 100% for nearly the last 4 decades ……… today it sits at over 250% - it's over double the US - you really do need to check your figures

As for a challenge that they can easily manage …… really ?

Chris

[billfisher]

Sorry Billfisher but where are you getting your figures from ?
japan has had government debt to GDP ration of in excess of 100% for nearly the last 4 decades ……… today it sits at over 250% - it's over double the US - you really do need to check your figures

As for a challenge that they can easily manage …… really ?

Chris

You can't have read my reference then. And I said overall debt to GDP - the reference explains how they get to 60% and how they can manage an ageing population. You might want to consider there are cost to a rapidly growing population too such as huge infrastructure bill, loss of productivity due to congestion, loss of amenity and strain on the environment. Also the large government debt the US has had for a long time has not had any adverse effects and some economists question whether government debt really matters that much.