Let's have some science on electric outboards

[Crocodile]

Hello All,

to put it bluntly if you think that electric outboards for planing runabouts are a viable proposition at this current state of technology you are living in rainbows and unicorns land.

I have a 4.3m tinny with a 60hp old-school two stroke outboard.
I use 18 litres of petrol per hour at 18 knots.
I can reliably repeat these figures.
That motor cost about $8 K about six years ago.

Go to the Torqueedo webpage and have a good look.
https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/deep-blue/deep-blue-40-r/M-3203-00.html
Torqueedo represents the very best that humans can do at the moment.

An equivalent 40hp Torqueedo costs € 19999 ~ AUS $30000.

By their figures I need two 9.1 kw/hr batteries @ 196 kg to get a range of 17 nautical miles at 17-24 knots.
I use 36 litres of petrol for a range of 36 nautical miles at 18 knots.
So to get the same range I need ~ 400kg of batteries assuming the thing still planed.
Goodness knows what four 9.1 kw/hr batteries costs!.

How to recharge the batteries.
Please do not say solar panels on the roof of the boat.
The amount of solar energy that falls on a square metre is tiny.
Even if you could cover the roof of your boat with panels it would power a piddling trolling motor only, forget about a beast like the Torqueedo.
So its back to mains power which means coal or if you have plenty of time and the solar panels at home you may be able to rig something to recharge the batteries.

In summary, practical, affordable, powerful electric boat propulsion is a very long way off.

[ben475]

Batteries for a trolling motor are even an issue...

[gazza2006au]

I think we are still behind in solar technology at the moment we have two types of solar panels those that work on sunny days and those that work on cloudy days you'd think in today's technology they would have combined the two for optimum success

i realistically think solar panel recharges on a boat are not realistic not even close but in saying that there is no different to charging a battery bank at home taking out the battery bank for a days fishing than filling up the gas tank and taking that out for the day however there is no pollution there is no oil use or waste going into our waterways, there is no noise pollution, you come home from fishing 4 5 hours u have an empty fuel tank, you come home with a empty battery bank same thing

you guys are already using electric motors on your boats its the beginning of revolution in another 200 years it will impact our world like no other imagine all the asian countries running nothing but 2 strokes imagine if it impacted these countries where they too ran electric motors its a far reach but very possible

electric technology ends up cheap very cheap as it advances quiet fastly once the demand is put in to place

i think we need low RPM high torque electric motors with strong gearboxes to propel our boats, you guys who run watersnakes etc... are all contributing to our new technology and advancements

[up the creek]

good i wont have to give up my gasoline engine any time soon lol...

[Andy56]

Couple of things turned up here. Low rpm high torque electric motors? Ah yes, thats the inherent properties of an electric motor.
Two types of solar panels? News to me, lol.
mains power which means coal. Oh yea, fair dinkum power. Who writes this insane stuff, lol. Good for a laugh.

[Paul071978]

Affordable large electric outboards with long range cells to suit a long way off. 20 years plus. In the meantime diesel is the fuel efficient alternative for large outboards as r and d in modern ice engines is finished. Weren’t too many diesel cars on the road 20 years ago now how many are there?

[Noelm]

We can all huff and puff and say it isn't possible, and you will never move away from your carby 2 stroke and all sorts of things, but the reality is, we simply don't know, things advance at alarming speed, yet at times a snails pace, who knows if we will run out of fossil fuels? who knows if battery power is the real future? who knows if the next lightweight, instant charge battery is not just around the corner? right now we are all thinking electric and battery, yet what if some sort of space age drive system is just lurking to be found, this is like everything we have today, some nutbag laboratory dude is fooling around with "something" and it opens a whole new door!

[NAGG]

We won’t be that far off ..... the battery technology has already jumped in leaps and bounds so who knows what is being worked on in some lab.

Chris

[TheRealAndy]

Couple of things turned up here. Low rpm high torque electric motors? Ah yes, thats the inherent properties of an electric motor.

No its not, its just the inherent property of a particular design of a motor.



Two types of solar panels? News to me, lol.

Actually, I can think of about half a dozen types of solar panels, and that's just for electricity generation alone.



mains power which means coal. Oh yea, fair dinkum power. Who writes this insane stuff, lol. Good for a laugh.

Yet modern coal fired electricity is still more efficient than ANY piston petrol engine that we currently have.

[Lovey80]

Sounds like the OP is having an argument with himself. No one is suggesting that electric main propulsion systems are even close for power boats.

[stevej]

ops also doesnt consider cost isnt a issue to some people who will buy them just because they want too or they fit their needs for a commuter boat

i have 15kw of solar at home i could recharge these if i wanted too or a car etc

electric motors are used on many ships and oil rigs and trains
the fuel cell is a diesel engine charging battery banks or direct from diesel to motor

[Andy56]

i started to respond and ended up editing the original post. I just love technology when it works, lol.

i was just poking fun at the way people try to understand technology in their own ways. Definetly left of field, totally inacurate and thus funny. I didnt mean it to be too serious guys.

motors used for propulsion all have max power at the get go.

photovoltaic cells all work on the same principle, the absorbtion of photons. The difference between panels is how many photons and at what wavelengths. Thats assuming you define solar power as the usage of photovoltaic cells. If you want to be real technical, solar furnace, wavepower and wind are all solar power. But solar with clouds and solar without clouds, now thats NEW technology, lol.

fair dinkum power is dog whistle for coal power. Tip, electrons can tell where they come from. Always raises a chuckle. And yes coal power is so efficient that it will never be built here again, the market deems it too expensive. What we have is just a historical overhang. The end of the stone age didnt result in the end of stones, thry are still around.

as the march of progress accelerates, so too will the takeup of electric outboards.
if you checkout electric cars, you will see that apart from the upfront costs, they are a miser's dream machine. Not many moving parts, sweet fa servicing costs and cheap to run. When the purchase price drops, you would have to be real crazy not to go that way. Stubborn as a mule type stupid. It could be the fastest stampede ever envisaged. I see no reason why it wouldnt apply to outboards as well.

the csiro recently came up with the idea of storing hydrogen as ammonia. It costs $350/ton to produce. It can feed a fuel cell to produce electricity and water. This solves the missing jigsaw piece. Electric outboard, fuel cell and a tank full of ammonia. For those of us who have anxiety issues, this is your modern solution.

electric motor, super efficient, max hp at low rpm, very very few parts, no maintenance for life, super compact, super low weight. So whats not to like eh?
fuel cell, very efficient, can be portable- use it for the car, camping, the home. no moving parts, no maintenance. Ammonia in, electricity and water out. Whats not to like?
ammonia, cheap to produce form of hydrogen, safe/dangerous as petrol, no major infrustructure changes required, may require a bit more than petrol but only marginally so, can be produced at home ( according to the csiro, production can be scaled). I am starting to warm to this idea.

now if you combine the three, you start to see many other benefits. No battery required! Thats 10kg and $200-300 saved. And i havent had time to think about other possibilities.

knowing what we know, the electric motor is the least of the issues. We KNOW its the best. The method we use to feed it is what is the real technological driver. If you analyse the value of an ICE engine, its the ready availability of fuel. If i had to guess, we will probably have a mixture of technologies according to usage requirements and price. A boat hire would be more than happy with batteries, solo adventurers would require a different fuel delivery system such as fuel cell. Ships would ditch deisel power generators completely. Subs would have ammonia and be self sufficient.
the field has opened up, and their racing............

[chocolatemoose]

Hi All
So. no surprise i'm a big fan of tech and toys :built my whole buisness around it after all:P. And as such i was super keen to become a torqeedo dealer, ive used them, owned them and wanted to sell them for some time. Electric outboards do have a way to go compared to cars "two different uses and markets etc". However there is still a strong market here in australia for the Cruise series torqeedos. (about 1.5hp) in the Grey nomad class. the ease of use and transport is infinitely better than petrol. with ownership costs being higher but not by all that much. Mind you its nice when you get thank you cards from people saying how they no longer scoffing down voltarin after lugging a petrol outboard to their tinny or inflatable.

I see the future as being a diesel and electric war . cant wait :)

[scottar]

Someone has done some science. No further details ATM.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1953606391352262&id=623905207655727&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1953606871352214%3Atl_objid .1953606871352214%3Apage_id.623905207655727%3Aphot o_attachments_list.%5B1953606391352262%2C195360669 4685565%2C1953606871352214%5D%3Aphoto_id.195360639 1352262%3Astory_location.4%3Astory_attachment_styl e.new_album%3Apage_insights.%7B%22623905207655727% 22%3A%7B%22role%22%3A1%2C%22page_id%22%3A623905207 655727%2C%22post_context%22%3A%7B%22story_fbid%22% 3A%5B1953606391352262%2C1953606094685625%5D%2C%22p ublish_time%22%3A1542115002%2C%22story_name%22%3A% 22EntPhotoNodeBasedEdgeStory%22%2C%22object_fbtype %22%3A22%7D%2C%22actor_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C% 22psn%22%3A%22EntPhotoNodeBasedEdgeStory%22%2C%22s l%22%3A4%2C%22dm%22%3A%7B%22isShare%22%3A0%2C%22or iginalPostOwnerID%22%3A0%7D%2C%22targets%22%3A%5B% 7B%22page_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C%22actor_id%22 %3A623905207655727%2C%22role%22%3A1%2C%22post_id%2 2%3A1953606391352262%2C%22share_id%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B %22page_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C%22actor_id%22%3 A623905207655727%2C%22role%22%3A1%2C%22post_id%22% 3A1953606094685625%2C%22share_id%22%3A0%7D%5D%7D%7 D&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

[gazza2006au]

Someone has done some science. No further details ATM.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1953606391352262&id=623905207655727&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1953606871352214%3Atl_objid .1953606871352214%3Apage_id.623905207655727%3Aphot o_attachments_list.%5B1953606391352262%2C195360669 4685565%2C1953606871352214%5D%3Aphoto_id.195360639 1352262%3Astory_location.4%3Astory_attachment_styl e.new_album%3Apage_insights.%7B%22623905207655727% 22%3A%7B%22role%22%3A1%2C%22page_id%22%3A623905207 655727%2C%22post_context%22%3A%7B%22story_fbid%22% 3A%5B1953606391352262%2C1953606094685625%5D%2C%22p ublish_time%22%3A1542115002%2C%22story_name%22%3A% 22EntPhotoNodeBasedEdgeStory%22%2C%22object_fbtype %22%3A22%7D%2C%22actor_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C% 22psn%22%3A%22EntPhotoNodeBasedEdgeStory%22%2C%22s l%22%3A4%2C%22dm%22%3A%7B%22isShare%22%3A0%2C%22or iginalPostOwnerID%22%3A0%7D%2C%22targets%22%3A%5B% 7B%22page_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C%22actor_id%22 %3A623905207655727%2C%22role%22%3A1%2C%22post_id%2 2%3A1953606391352262%2C%22share_id%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B %22page_id%22%3A623905207655727%2C%22actor_id%22%3 A623905207655727%2C%22role%22%3A1%2C%22post_id%22% 3A1953606094685625%2C%22share_id%22%3A0%7D%5D%7D%7 D&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

Those lines look all fully a lot like Fabio's hair haha, Is that 450hp? :o

[gazza2006au]

it just popped up on my news feed delivery starts in 2019

[TheRealPoMo]

So you just need one of those GE Mr Fusions from Back to the Future to power it with Grinners...

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[ranmar850]

Well, I don't know about diesel being the future of anything, at least in smaller capacities. You've been living under a rock if you missed the whole VW diesel emissions scandal, you know, the one where the emissions shot up when the motor was actually delivering the performance it was claimed to. And the European cities seriously considering banning diesel light vehicles from their centres due to pollution issues, the need for DPF's to keep emissions down to the new standards, and the issues around said DPF's when vehicles aren't run hard for long periods, ie, the average use such a vehicle gets, vs the use of them for long distance heavy haulage, where they are very efficient. Google BMW X5 DPF if you want some horror stories under average Australian suburban use. Feck, I could put a whole motor in the 4.2 patrol for the cost of replacing one of these things.
Diesel is actually likely done for, in light vehicles. Mix of electric and high efficiency turbocharged petrol engines more likely, IMO.

[TheRealPoMo]

Diesel electric maybe like we have in locos since the 50's. Slow constant revs charging batteries to power electric motor would probably be emission friendly. Of course you have the weight of the poweplant plus the battery bank...be over tow weight I would think. Not that this would stop people, as we know.

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[shortthenlong]

Diesel is on the way out in Europe for cars in cities. Most countries will introduce new emission standards in 2020 that most manufacturers won't be able to meet. The VAG group (VW, Audi Skoda etc) are going to pull out of diesel by then. Mercedes say they will meet the new standards so will keep going. In other parts of the world diesel will keep on keeping on for some time yet. What does that mean for outboards... Emission standards in the largest market are generally a driver for change.

[Paul071978]

Tesla is proposing to begin production in 2019 of a 36 tonne capacity BEV truck that will have a range of 800 km, and an 80% recharge time of 30 min

Sounds promising

[Andy56]

I disagree that deisel is on the way out. I think that new generation motors will meet euro6 or 7 or whar ever gets thrown at them. We havent seen any hybrid deisels yet so i bet we have a lot of life left in the development stages.
if you checkout the chevy Bolt, they have shoehorned in an ice engine to recharge the batteries. The only criticism was that the motor is bigger than necessary. Thats due to their haste in getting the technology up and running. The Prius on the other hand is evolving like a snail- megafugly and kiddies tech.
wow, that 450hp electric motor weighs 109kg. I recon most of us would be happy with 100hp and 50kg. I guess they picked 450 because to introduce new tech sometimes you have to use the ludicrous mode, lol.

[Triple]

"The only criticism was that the motor is bigger than necessary." https://www.motoring.com.au/mazda-to-revive-rotary-as-shoebox-sized-range-extender-111396

[scottar]

I suspect they picked big horsepower because our market is a drop in the ocean. Where the real money is you see 4 x 400's across the stern on a regular basis.

[Brother Sharkbait]

I suspect they picked big horsepower because our market is a drop in the ocean. Where the real money is you see 4 x 400's across the stern on a regular basis.

Imagine 4 x 400HP!
The fuel/ battery weight alone would sink my 6m Cairns Custom Craft Tri-Hull!


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[Andy56]

"The only criticism was that the motor is bigger than necessary." https://www.motoring.com.au/mazda-to-revive-rotary-as-shoebox-sized-range-extender-111396

Talk about not letting go, lol. The rotary was a phenomenal drinker, thats why it kind of disappeared. Sure they may have worked wonders on it since, but so has everyone else. If i was a betting man, which I aint, I wouldnt put my house on it.

http://news.mit.edu/2014/liquidpiston-small-efficient-rotary-engine-1205,
this looks more interesting.

[Andy56]

I just came across this development.

https://newatlas.com/toshiba-scib-battery-triple-range/51667/

Just to show how fast these things are moving, here is the latest

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2018_06/pr0401.htm

and then this

https://www.triplepundit.com/2017/10/gms-2-5-billion-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-gamble-pay-off-help-us-army/
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180618/OEM06/180619766/gm-fuel-cell-

If you dont think electric cars isnt a major disruptor, you have no imagination. This is going to hit us like a brick. Whilst some here are hankering for the days of smoky two strokes, i wouldnt be in such a worry. The future is closer than you think.