Current definition of 'at anchor'?

[Damned67]

Hey All,
Had a bit of a search, but couldn't find anything.

Basically, out of curiosity, chasing the current definition of 'at anchor'.

Mate and i were out fishing the other night, and as we regularly do, we were using the MinnKota spot-lock to 'anchor' us in position.
in terms of Nav lights, are we 'under way' or 'anchored'?

i assume the actual definition would be that 'anchor' is defined as physically attached/connect to bottom/bouy/mooring etc, but with the GPS lock the impact on the boat is pretty much the same as deploying the anchor - particularly if the skipper's intention is the same (holding in a specific spot).
So, really, if the intention is the same and the effect is the same, the only difference is technology vs rope. And if the purpose of nav lights is primarily to 'warn' other boats, then...?

Thoughts?

Cheers!

[Noelm]

At anchor is indeed attatched to the bottom, using an electric motor is under way, no different to drifting, lights are not for "warning" other boats as such, they are a world wide standard to let others know what you are doing, which way you are going, or simply to see you if you are anchored at night.

[Dignity]

Yep, as Noelm says, your anchored, your green/red lights are an indication of direction of travel.If you turn them off just remember to turn them back on again. My BIL used to sit out at night with every light he had on board blazing including nav lights, he figured it was better to be seen than get run over, although a trawler nearly ran him over one night on the way back to harbour, busy sorting catch, probably saw him and chartered a course that would miss him but as he wasn't moving it nearly cost him his life.

[Damned67]

At anchor is indeed attatched to the bottom, using an electric motor is under way, no different to drifting, lights are not for "warning" other boats as such, they are a world wide standard to let others know what you are doing, which way you are going, or simply to see you if you are anchored at night.

Noelm,
This is where i disagree, in principle. We do a lot of drifting. Without question, that's underway. 'Anchored' with the GPS lock, we are as stationary as we would be physically on anchor. indeed, we often drift until we find a show on the sounder, then hit the GPS lock (same as we would have deployed before i had the Minn Kota). in terms of letting other boats know - same deal, we're pretty much stationary. A boat coming past doesn't know if we're physically anchored or not. Granted, if said passing boat is throwing a huge wake, then it's more dangerous being tethered.... so there is a difference there.

That said, that's all pedantics. i assumed the definition was around being physically anchored or thethered. And it's the definition that'll cop me a fine or otherwise.
My experience, in my boat, the GPS lock will hold my boat pretty much as stationary as my anchor (within reason - crappy conditions may alter this significantly), hence the question.

Again, was pretty much asking from curiosity.

Cheers!

[Fed]

Good question damned, technology getting ahead of the rules.
I think the rule maker's answer will be 'underway' for now.

[Dignity]

Good question damned, technology getting ahead of the rules.
I think the rule maker's answer will be 'underway' for now.
Fed, your correct, it's a complex question, for spot lock I believe you would be anchored, for drifting a whole new proposition.

When drifting normally with a drogue our bow is pointing in the direction of the drift, last trip I was out on the drift was to aft, fortunately the current below was in the same direction so the lines were still out the back of the boat, rather an odd situation. This was day time but at night the nav lights would have been indicating we were travelling in the reverse direction.

Now when I go out in a mates boat where we've recently fitted a Minn Kota the area we fish has a tendency to drift us sideways which suits us for soft plastic fishing, once again nav lights here will give a false impression of direction we're travelling.

For both these situations I have no idea what the answer is because it seems the regs don't allow for drifting, probably something somewhere but not that I can find. We will run the anchor light but not nav lights and are also very concious of other vessels in the area.

[Damned67]

i should add that i do leave my nav lights on when spot-locked with the GPS, as i assume that would be the current ruling.
As with any government or official rules, it really comes down to the wording, and the wording could be vague.

That said, given that the Minn Kota is running to maintain position, that could then be defined as motoring or under power, and thus underway....

Nonetheless, the outcome is the same - i'm essentially stationary as per anchor, and whether or not i'm technically underway or not, should my lights not reflect my position or intent to other watercraft?

The devil's in the details, eh?

Cheers!

[Damned67]

i always treat drifting as underway, even though the lights may not reflect the direction. My assumption is that if you're not stationary, you're underway, regardless of if you're using power or not.

[Aussie123]

The anchoring term you are looking for is Fixed Fast.
Your vessel is not fixed fast when using spot lock, you are underway and/or making way.
When using spot lock, you must display all lights the same as when you are travelling.

[Dignity]

i always treat drifting as underway, even though the lights may not reflect the direction. My assumption is that if you're not stationary, you're underway, regardless of if you're using power or not.

Ah, there lies the devil in the details. It is the "intent" of any rule or regulation that needs to be identified and this is where lawyers get bogged down in arguement whether it be civil, criminal or industrial courts. For example your workplace might have a 60 page booklet available to you to cover an award, but the final argument in court will refer to the intent behind the wording which will be many volumes of argument which is not clear to us.

I gather here we are talking purely the green starboard light and red port light, the "intent" of these is to indicate the direction of travel. For working vessels there are many other lights they can display.

What is the answer I don't know but if you have made every attempt to warn other vessels in your area that your there I would suggest it would eventually be in your favour. In my BIL's case if he was run over by the trawler, he would probably be apportioned a percentage of the blame with the trawler getting the bulk of the blame due to no one being at the helm.

Do your best and keep an eye out is all you can do, there are plenty of turkeys out there that don't display lights at all.

[GBC]

Hey All,
Had a bit of a search, but couldn't find anything.

Basically, out of curiosity, chasing the current definition of 'at anchor'.

Mate and i were out fishing the other night, and as we regularly do, we were using the MinnKota spot-lock to 'anchor' us in position.
in terms of Nav lights, are we 'under way' or 'anchored'?

i assume the actual definition would be that 'anchor' is defined as physically attached/connect to bottom/bouy/mooring etc, but with the GPS lock the impact on the boat is pretty much the same as deploying the anchor - particularly if the skipper's intention is the same (holding in a specific spot).
So, really, if the intention is the same and the effect is the same, the only difference is technology vs rope. And if the purpose of nav lights is primarily to 'warn' other boats, then...?

Thoughts?

Cheers!

The question isn't whether or not you are anchored, it is whether or not you are under way.


If you have chosen not to make way, but the vessel has the ability to, you are not a 'vessel not under command'.

You aren't engaged in any activity which requires you to remain on station (diving ops, cable laying, launching planes etc), so you cannot show Restricted Ability to Manoeuvre lights or day shapes - it is the activity, not the ability to do so which determines the ability to show RAM lights.

If your vessel is moving RELATIVE TO THE WATER you are most certainly under way. A ship running up a river at 5 knots against a 5 knot tide and holding station is under way and subject to Colregs. You are too.

On balance, a ship which has lost power can be doing 5 knots down a river and can still be making no way and also be not under command - i.e. give way....

You need to be anchored, aground or made fast (out of a traffic lane) to be deemed to be 'anchored' and afforded those rights - leaving your nav lights on could well cause another vessel to assume you have the ability to manoeuvre and claim right of way as they steam towards your green light...... That is why riding lights are different to the lights shown whilst underway.

This was all brought under the microscope years ago when dynamic positioning first became available. It is deemed that the activity the ship is engaged in allows it to use DP and show R.A.M. lights to gain complete right of way, not the ability to hold station whilst under way - like your spot lock.

Bottom line, rules of the road apply to you. How this translates to weekend warriors on the bay is anyone's guess.

Hope this helps.

[Damned67]

The anchoring term you are looking for is Fixed Fast.
Your vessel is not fixed fast when using spot lock, you are underway and/or making way.
When using spot lock, you must display all lights the same as when you are travelling.

Thanks Aussie123!
Fixed Fast is a pretty clear term, and thus answers the legal side of it all. I assumed the legality was around being 'fixed', but was interested as to the wording. Fixed fast is nice and clear.
That said, and to be clear, I'm not arguing at all (although I seem to be arguing with myself), just discussing (again, mostly to myself) around these rules. As Dignity pointed out, the 'intent' of the law/rule should be considered.

Spending time on the bay at night, I've seen every combination of lights used - or not at all!

Cheers!

[Damned67]

Cheers GBC!

[scottar]

If you were holding station with your outboard would you consider yourself "at anchor". No different with the electric - just a different motor.

[Fed]

So is a RAM light an 'all round white light' or is it a different light altogether?
I have to say I've never heard of a RAM light.

[Noelm]

There is no fuzzy grey area here, you are under power, though stationary, you are NOT anchored, plain and simple, you could do the same thing in a channel, hold position against the current, you must have your nav lights on (if it's dark of course) it is not negotiable, end of story, twist words and terms all you like.

[Dignity]

Nonetheless, the outcome is the same - i'm essentially stationary as per anchor, and whether or not i'm technically underway or not, should my lights not reflect my position or intent to other watercraft?

The devil's in the details, eh?

Cheers!

You don't run your port and starboard lights at anchor.

[Fed]

So what do you run when you're anchored? (Trick question?)

[swof63]

There is no fuzzy grey area here, you are under power, though stationary, you are NOT anchored, plain and simple, you could do the same thing in a channel, hold position against the current, you must have your nav lights on (if it's dark of course) it is not negotiable, end of story, twist words and terms all you like.

^^ this.


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[Dignity]

So what do you run when you're anchored? (Trick question?)

All round white light, mine is mounter above the targy top. See a lot of boats where the short light pole is at the stern and can't be seen from front on. From memory if powerboat is less than a certain size and doing only a few knots I believe port and starboard lights aren't needed.

[Dignity]

I've just realised I think we have the answer to the original question. Its amazing how the brain starts to work again, my brother has just gone for his VHF certificate and just talking things over with him I recalled stuff that in normal conversation I would struggle with, maybe that's just part of getting old.

[myusernam]

So what about 0.05? If at anchor i think u need to be under .05 unless at a registered mooring. So in an evening anchorage, the boat beside u on a registered moooring can be all blind drunk, but you need to be 0.05. But of course you can leave the boat and be on shore or swimming drunk. Or only be a juvenile or unlicensed driver on the boat. Or spearfishing or diving away from the vessel. Or in another country, but be on the vessel pissed and not at a registered mooring and watch out. In fact if the skipper goes diving sober and the crew is over.05 at anchor i think its an issue. What if the person left behind is unlicensed?. My take is we'll all jump in and swim for shore. No one in charge of vessel, we were swimming and now were sleeping on beach and i had a Stiff drink as was swimming to shore which explains my blood alchohol level.

[Damned67]

I agree, particularly with the term 'fixed fast', that there is zero grey area.
Again, at night I have my all round white on at all times, and my red and green on at all times, except for when I have deployed my actual physical anchor. And my all round white sits 1.2m above the red and green (where most boats don't have it sitting 1m+ above).
In addition to actually getting a definition, the thread was for a discussion around the use of technology (hence my original post asking for 'thoughts?').

In terms of practicality, for every argument that is made as to why I'm 'underway', similar arguments can be made as to why I'm on anchor.... outside of the 'fixed fast' definition. And the argument, in the context of this thread - not the legalities, as to why I'm 'on anchor' comes down to the intent of the law, I would imagine?
'yes, Officer, I was distracted by my argument with my wife on my phone, but I was using hands free...'

Ignoring the 'fixed fast' terminology, what is the practical difference between me sitting on top of a piece of structure for 6 hours regardless of whether I'm fixed fast or my technology allows it? The result and the intent is the same. The result being that I still don't catch any fish. And yes, the legal definition differs, that is abundantly clear.

Cheers All!

[Dignity]

OK, thought I'd actually go and look it up, but now it raises another question, what does "maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots". If it means the vessel is capable of exceeding this speed then you would need your port and starboard lights on while drifting, if on the other hand you are only travelling below 7 knots as in drifting then you only need the all round white light. I'll take it to mean the latter, maybe one day next week I might dig out the statute rules and regs and try and find out.

https://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Safety/Navigation-lights

[Noelm]

It doesn't matter how much you try to switch meanings or terms, you are not anchored when you use an electric motor to hold position, even if the manufacturer might call the process "anchor lock" or similar, similarly if you are drifting, nav lights should be on in periods of heightened risk, or after sunset, it's pretty well spelled out in the definitions if you care to look.

[gazza2006au]

Being theoretically lets say there were no wind, there were no tide, there was nothing to actually physically move your boat u would ideally not need the minkota and u would not need a anchor but or your still underway because your not physically attached to land or the sea floor by a means o an anchor

in NSW u need both red and green plus white light displayed at all times from sunset to sunrise

rules and laws are based on pre history mate if u got dicked just pay the fine.. I'm sure its written somewhere at some place a anchor is attachment to the sea floor otherwise in todays technology all those boats u see moored them $100,000 boats would all be running solar panels with minkota's and spot lock instead of mooring them up lol....

[Dignity]

OK Gazza,didn't realise you were in NSW, my commiserations, Noelm my last post refers to qld regs (and my comments stiil apply in qld for boats under 7 m) so doesn't apply to Gazza. BTW international requirements are for the all round white so I guess if your travelling around d the world you need to be aware of local rules, as in NSW .

[gazza2006au]

Haha Dig, yeah i think the all round white light is more visable than red and green as i know red is the quickest light to deminish in the dark to the nakid eye green surely not far off it but with the 3 lights u can get a visual of where a boat is located and if its under way, i previously thought a all round white light was for an anchored vessle but the guys here helped me out with info,

[Dignity]

Cheers Gazza, just be safe as you can.

[Dignity]

So what about 0.05? If at anchor i think u need to be under .05 unless at a registered mooring. So in an evening anchorage, the boat beside u on a registered moooring can be all blind drunk, but you need to be 0.05. But of course you can leave the boat and be on shore or swimming drunk. Or only be a juvenile or unlicensed driver on the boat. Or spearfishing or diving away from the vessel. Or in another country, but be on the vessel pissed and not at a registered mooring and watch out. In fact if the skipper goes diving sober and the crew is over.05 at anchor i think its an issue. What if the person left behind is unlicensed?. My take is we'll all jump in and swim for shore. No one in charge of vessel, we were swimming and now were sleeping on beach and i had a Stiff drink as was swimming to shore which explains my blood alchohol level.
That's a whole new ball game. We spoke to the Water Police with a club I used to belong with at South Straddie, we had a good relationship with them. Basically if your at anchor someone still has to be in charge of the vessel. There was a heap of discussions around different scenarios and it was really mind boggling to say the least. Way too long to discuss here. Drinking while on water is also a huge and long topic and to be honest IMHO it's best if the skipper is 0%, the water is far less forgiving than bitumen.

[NAGG]

I would have assumed that spot lock would be considered as underway - albeit , very slowly but you do have propulsion

Chris

[Dignity]

I would have assumed that spot lock would be considered as underway - albeit , very slowly but you do have propulsion

Chris

Qld regs if under 7 metres and travelling (this bit is ambiguous on their site) less than 7knots then only All around white is required, this appears to be in line with international rules, however NSW appears to have additional rules. Another reason they should all be the same, we even have different rules for offshore flares, go figure.

[Noelm]

No, it states that the vessels max speed does not exceed 7knots, it also states that if practical they must display sidelights, be pretty hard to prove it's not practical to fit sidelights on any boat, except of course the mentioned row boats and tenders and the like.

[GBC]

So is a RAM light an 'all round white light' or is it a different light altogether?
I have to say I've never heard of a RAM light.

Restricted ability to manoeuvre lights.

The under 7m under 7knots lights will be found in the paddlecraft/dinghy section of the colregs - planing boats need full set of applicable lights at night whether they be planing or not. I’m not near a book at present to get the rule number.


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[Noelm]

I can't see why these lights threads go on and on (hang on, I just helped it go longer) the rules are there for your and other boaters safety, most rules are common, but, now and then there can be a "local" exception, Sydney Harbour has a couple on extra rules, but, in general, they are standard, people can argue about (say) how their boat came new with a silly short plug in all around white light on the rear, but, it doesn't make it legal, plain and simple, some goes for an electric motor having "anchor lock" it is not a substitute to side step a rule, no different to being stopped in traffic, and using your phone, just because at that moment you were stationary, you are still driving, try arguing any of this in court and see how you go.

[Noelm]

Lots of trawlers use "ram" lights, as well as vessels engaged in fishing lights, I think from memory, RAM lights are red over red all round, plus necessary side lights?

[Aussie123]

Lots of trawlers use "ram" lights, as well as vessels engaged in fishing lights, I think from memory, RAM lights are red over red all round, plus necessary side lights?

Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre are Red/White/Red lights plus nav lights if making way.

[Fed]

Thanks Noel, that being the case I have no idea why RAM lights were even mentioned.
About as much help as a dying duck in a thunderstorm, it's all that GBC & Damned67's fault.:)

As an aside I remember telling myself to stop calling 'all round white lights' anchor lights because that's not what they are for, I can't remember why but I can only assume you don't use your 'all round white light' when you are anchored, ring a bell?

[Noelm]

Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre are Red/White/Red lights plus nav lights if making way.
Red over red might be "not under command"? of course, I could just look them up, but I like to try to keep them memorised.

[Aussie123]

Red over red might be "not under command"? of course, I could just look them up, but I like to try to keep them memorised.
Yup, red over red is a vessel not under command.

[gazza2006au]

That's a whole new ball game. We spoke to the Water Police with a club I used to belong with at South Straddie, we had a good relationship with them. Basically if your at anchor someone still has to be in charge of the vessel. There was a heap of discussions around different scenarios and it was really mind boggling to say the least. Way too long to discuss here. Drinking while on water is also a huge and long topic and to be honest IMHO it's best if the skipper is 0%, the water is far less forgiving than bitumen.
Totally agree with that Dig my cousins and mates use to bring the bourbon and coke out on the boat i always wanted them to wear life jackets but they refused its there choice however i always stayed sober 100% of the time as i was skipper i don't believe in booze and boats ay not a good mix

[Damned67]

Seriously people, take a chill pill. That, or actually read the posts in the thread.
i have stated numerous times that i use the lights appropriately. Not trying to side step rules.

Also stated on more than one occasion that this was to answer a question and facilitate a discussion. A discussion around technology and the law, but i seem to have forgotten that this is not a forum for discussion.

No wonder there are so few members left posting here. Maybe we should go back to asking if Nuclear Chicken Gulps are in fact better than live bait?

Cheers!

[Noelm]

I don't think anyone is getting in a flap, it is a discussion, that's how people learn and express their view, I can't see were it is anything else, maybe my posts are misread to think I am having a go at someone, but I can assure you it was never intended to read that way.

[gazza2006au]

Seriously people, take a chill pill. That, or actually read the posts in the thread.
i have stated numerous times that i use the lights appropriately. Not trying to side step rules.

Also stated on more than one occasion that this was to answer a question and facilitate a discussion. A discussion around technology and the law, but i seem to have forgotten that this is not a forum for discussion.

No wonder there are so few members left posting here. Maybe we should go back to asking if Nuclear Chicken Gulps are in fact better than live bait?

Cheers!

From my view u copped a fine or at lease a warning and they chewed your a... out for it, i think people have given u a valid point throughout this thread i think its just not what u want to hear so your still unsatisfied

the few members posting here thing is forums are dying all around the internet people are going to facebook but facebook just brings a lot of different people to the discussion with little moderation so u tend to get a lot of dick heads, forums like this are way more valuable than other resources u get a lot of average joes on fb too

[Shark Poker]

this is the best thread I have read on ausfish in a long, long time.
As for the original question... run him over.

[shaungonemad]

No wonder there are so few members left posting here. Maybe we should go back to asking if Nuclear Chicken Gulps are in fact better than live bait?

Cheers!


I prefer Zmans but hard to say whether plastic is better than bait.

[Dignity]

Seriously people, take a chill pill. That, or actually read the posts in the thread.
i have stated numerous times that i use the lights appropriately. Not trying to side step rules.

Also stated on more than one occasion that this was to answer a question and facilitate a discussion. A discussion around technology and the law, but i seem to have forgotten that this is not a forum for discussion.

No wonder there are so few members left posting here. Maybe we should go back to asking if Nuclear Chicken Gulps are in fact better than live bait?

Cheers!

Unfortunately we go off on tangents, unintentional but happens, totally guilty of hijacking threads myself. Your original post is quite valid and the responses just go to show how misinterpreted the rules and regs are, myself especially. I agree, technology a regs have not kept apace.

[gazza2006au]

Everyone will have there own valid perception of 'anchoring' u just hope maritime see it the same way if in doubt u can email maritime and they will set u strait on the point

One time i had planned a trip out of pittwater i looked up the maritime map and seen it was a no wash zone so i emailed maritime asking what was a prefferable speed thru this zone and i got a reply saying as fast as i possibly feel comfortable without creating wash

I didnt wanna get pinched so best to ask first and keep that email for later refference as u can call apon it if u need to in court

[shakey55]

I would look at it as simple as this.

At anchor (while still aboard) would be like sitting in a car with engine off and handbrake applied.

The original description of being stationary with Minnkota holding the exact location would be like sitting in a car stationary with engine running and handbrake applied.

Just my opinion. A great discussion


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[gazza2006au]

I would look at it as simple as this.

At anchor (while still aboard) would be like sitting in a car with engine off and handbrake applied.

The original description of being stationary with Minnkota holding the exact location would be like sitting in a car stationary with engine running and handbrake applied.

Just my opinion. A great discussion


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If u have the keys in the ignition that is classed as driving in todays society lol thank whoever makes the rules

[Richo1]

Hi all,

The Collision Regulations don't have a definition of "At Anchor" , but the Collins English Dictionary has the following;
phrase
If a boat (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/boat) is at anchor, it is floating (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/float) in a particular (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/particular) place and is prevented (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/prevent) from moving (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/move) by its anchor.
Anchor
1. countable noun
An anchor is a heavy hooked object that is dropped from a boat into the water at the end of a chain in order to make the boat stay in one place.

COLREGS Rule 3 General Definitions
(i) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.

So unfortunately you have no special rights while using "Spot Lock" mode while fishing and must abide by the rules for a vessel underway.

Technically at night you would have to display lights for a vessel underway.
When I'm in spot lock at night, to save battery power I just put up my anchor light - who is to know the difference ;)


Just to make things more confusing,

Rule 30
(e) A vessel of less than 7 metres in length, when at anchor, not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or anchorage, or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule.

Regards,

Richo

[Lovey80]

I agree, particularly with the term 'fixed fast', that there is zero grey area.
Again, at night I have my all round white on at all times, and my red and green on at all times, except for when I have deployed my actual physical anchor. And my all round white sits 1.2m above the red and green (where most boats don't have it sitting 1m+ above).
In addition to actually getting a definition, the thread was for a discussion around the use of technology (hence my original post asking for 'thoughts?').

This is definitely the rule and how it should be played, however I can totally see why it would be questioned.


In terms of practicality, for every argument that is made as to why I'm 'underway', similar arguments can be made as to why I'm on anchor.... outside of the 'fixed fast' definition. And the argument, in the context of this thread - not the legalities, as to why I'm 'on anchor' comes down to the intent of the law, I would imagine?
'yes, Officer, I was distracted by my argument with my wife on my phone, but I was using hands free...'

In practical terms I can totally see why someone would assume that all this is required to be displayed is an all round white light whilst using spot lock. In a fair world I can see the conversation going like this.

Officer: why were you only displaying the all round white light when your anchor was not deployed?

Punter: I know the anchor wasn’t deployed, but I was effectively stationary and by turning off the Nav lights I was alerting other vessels that I was stationary.

Officer: there is more to it than being stationary, who has right of way has a significant bearing. As you were not “fixed fast” you have obligations to give way in some circumstances. Take this as a learning experience and pass the message onto your friends.

In the real world Officer fines Punter because he has a quota to fill and moves on.



Ignoring the 'fixed fast' terminology, what is the practical difference between me sitting on top of a piece of structure for 6 hours regardless of whether I'm fixed fast or my technology allows it? The result and the intent is the same. The result being that I still don't catch any fish. And yes, the legal definition differs, that is abundantly clear.

Cheers All!

Almost zero chance of losing an anchor with the later technology option?

[Volvo]

Have a problemo if one doesnt know when they are at Anchor lol !! ,

[Vromme]

At anchor- tethered to an anchor. Pretty straight forward Id think.

More like a balloon tethered vs being held in place with a motor (IE hovering).