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Andy56
29-08-2018, 08:15 PM
quintrex 420 renegade sc.

Well I picked up the boat on a beautiful day here in PPB. So off to werribee we went.
First thing to do is transform trailer to drive on. A couple of guides are cheap enough. Second thing to do is buy a jackplate. The cav plate is buried about an inch under the water. The motor is on the second last hole so it only has about 1/2'. It gets on the plane but boy does she nose up before hand, lol. The steering is heavy too. all symptoms of a low motor. I managed to get to 25m/hr at 5000rpm. I didnt want to push it too far on the first trip. I think it will make over 30m/hr when setup properly. Possibly 35.

As for the blade hull, yes its a ripper. A jump ahead of the millenium hull for sure. Its definitely not a banger. The other thing i noticed was the clean water between the motor and outside strakes. This means the transom bracket is in a good position. Fitting of the axiom 9 will be this week.

Most importantly, I had a big flatty on the hook. He got off on the surface so i dropped the line and he had another go but i think i was too eager and lost him a second time. So no food tonight. hahahaha.

gazza2006au
29-08-2018, 08:46 PM
Andy don't lift a Flatties head out of the water without having it netted they will shake and spit the hook, i have caught a few big breeders in my time this is my last but not my biggest 92cm caught in Botany Bay a red hot location 15 meters off the Sydney Airport Runway on a live Poddy Mullet

catshark
29-08-2018, 08:53 PM
how did you go with the side console, did you have to counter balance with an esky?

Andy56
29-08-2018, 09:03 PM
Not at all. It sits pretty flat. The only issue is the seat pedestals are too high: not a hard fix.

Gazza, it spat the hook a meter or so from the surface.

gazza2006au
30-08-2018, 04:09 PM
Andy you'll probably find that 5000 rpm is almost full throttle so u have been caning the ass off the boat already lol, did u read the outboard owners manual for break in procedure?

Noelm
30-08-2018, 04:27 PM
Can't you life the motor high enough without a jack plate?

Andy56
30-08-2018, 06:13 PM
Andy you'll probably find that 5000 rpm is almost full throttle so u have been caning the ass off the boat already lol, did u read the outboard owners manual for break in procedure?

I think you are misinformed. Its full range is 5500-6000. No breakin period.
It did 5000rpm with ease but i pulled back to 4000-4500.

Andy56
30-08-2018, 06:17 PM
I spoke to the dealer and they want to check where its at. So before i do anything, i will let them play with it. But in all honesty, if the cav plate is about 1" under water, going one hole more up is only going to go 1/2" up. Like i said , i will let the dealer have a look first. I can get a manual jackplate from the US for under $300.

Noelm
30-08-2018, 07:05 PM
There is thousands on those around (I have one kind of) and unless the mounting holes were drilled too low, there should be plenty of room to lift it up clear of the bottom.

Noelm
30-08-2018, 07:06 PM
One hole should be more than 1/2"

gazza2006au
30-08-2018, 08:16 PM
So u have a E-Tec? there were a lot o discussions back in the day when they first came out about the no break in a lot of people were umming an arring about it i donno where long term users sit today all the ones who didn't do the break in or in fact the ones who did its an old discussion

i personally like to run anything mechanical in with a run in period

there is really no difference between 5k 5.5k other than 500rpm extra which is idle speed

Andy56
30-08-2018, 08:23 PM
One hole should be more than 1/2"

i havent measured the lift of one hole, just had a rough look. It looks like 1/2 to 3/4"

the other statement has crossed my mind too. Lets just see how it pans out. It may take a while for me to get the boat to the dealer, so in the meantime, i am going to fit the axiom.

Andy56
30-08-2018, 08:44 PM
Look, i beg to differ. I Look at 6000rpm as my objective at wot. I see 5000/5500 at wot as lugging the motor. The fact that it pulled 5000 effortlessly whilst being low , the extra drag and all, suggests it isnt under any strain. I sat on 5000 for a whole 10secs, so i tried to vary the revs but i sat on 4000/4500 most of the time. so i am not totally without mechanical sympathy.
the interesting thing is how odd the boat behaves when the motor is too low. Once on plane, the only noticeable issue is the heavy steering and very minimal trim control. Having said all that, this is going to be an awsome boat when this is sorted. The hull just feels so well planted and soft.

Fed
31-08-2018, 08:14 AM
I'm guessing you've got an external keel so they have probably got it set up right. (Conservative?)
Was the 5000 RPM at WOT?

Noelm
31-08-2018, 08:49 AM
I guess in a kind of way "running in" was a left over from decades ago when cars and so on where just bolted together "tight" and some measure of running in was expected, these days of much higher tolerances, far better materials and much better assembly, I tend to think as long as you are not some kind of lunatic with the motor, then variable speeds up to max RPM is fine, and probably best for motor longevity, all dealers who water test new boats run them to max RPM for testing purposes, and this is when they are almost straight out of the box.

Andy56
31-08-2018, 04:54 PM
I'm guessing you've got an external keel so they have probably got it set up right. (Conservative?)
Was the 5000 RPM at WOT?

Yes, i just had another look and the plate is inline with the keel. Obviously, on this model thats the wrong setup for this motor. I do have some experience with these issues. I want to check the paper work and make sure its not a 25" on a 20". Now that would be a mistake, lol.

No, 5000rpm was not at wot. I had plenty of travel left on the throttle. The motor/boat gets bogged down in the water so i didnt want to get too excited just yet. Happy just to get a feel for things before i jump too hard.

gazza2006au
31-08-2018, 07:41 PM
Hey Andy i wasnt trying to be an ass to you mate i was just trying to get across that 5000rpm is revving a outboard pretty hard out of the box and that 500rpm more is a normal idle speed or a E-tec so its not much more on top o the 5000 when u think about it

but its an E-tec go rev it hard mate i love those engines out of all the outboards on the market hopping to snag a cheap one for my boat I'm rebuilding possibly next winter

Andy56
31-08-2018, 10:59 PM
Hey Andy i wasnt trying to be an ass to you mate i was just trying to get across that 5000rpm is revving a outboard pretty hard out of the box and that 500rpm more is a normal idle speed or a E-tec so its not much more on top o the 5000 when u think about it

but its an E-tec go rev it hard mate i love those engines out of all the outboards on the market hopping to snag a cheap one for my boat I'm rebuilding possibly next winter

You can be an ass to me, i am big enough, hahahahaha. I will hold my ground until i get a logical reason to give in.
I look at it this way, 5000 rpm is only 500 up on 4500, lol.
Look if it struggled to get there i would have pulled back. I was trying to get a feel for what it had and 5000 came up real easy, so definitely under no strain.
Etecs have a built in run in period of 20hrs. It has more oil injected during this period. In the end its all about how it feels. I will run at a speed it feels comfortable at. Just like a car that has a speedo that shows 220km/hr but feels most comfortable at 130km/hr. So long as i know WOT is close to 6000, i dont have any issue with driving within that range 0-6000. Thats what its designed to do. I had a yamaha 60 4s on another quintrex i owned another life time ago and it sat on 6000 without fault for long periods, smooth as. My 130 etec was similar but i stayed down around 4500rpm, the petrol consumption got a bit exciting over 5000rpm.
So far its less than 1hr run time with the motor too low. I will have more info when the dealer has had a look.

Andy56
09-09-2018, 06:48 PM
Second outing with the new boat today. The dealer raised it one hole so the ventilation plate is now level with the bottom of the hull, not the keel as before.

It reved out to 6000 effortlerssly and i hit 30/32m/hr. It had a touch more but i didnt want to go overboard.
Mind you, its one of those pitot style speedos. Accuracy is unknown. A gps speedo would have been a better instrument to fit. I guess they make savings where ever they can.

Its better but its still way too heavy on the steering, the bow still wants to lift and the cav plate is still submerged. Trimming all the way down had minimal effect on the bow attitude at take off. its better for low speed maneuvers than before, so i figure i am on the right track. So my next step is a jack plate. Meanwhile the dealer is saying its way too high.

The Axiom worked straight off but i must say, its gonna take some time to fully comprehend that which i observe. 3d held up till about 20m/hr but got progressively more delayed. 3D dont work too well when your stationary or shallow water either. Yes i know thats obvious now, but as i said new toy must read instructions.

The trailer keel guides worked well but the most disappointing thing is that a bolt was missing from the kit. I wonder what pleasure some jerk got from steeling a bolt from CH SMITH, lol,

The seat heights have been adjusted, down 6" for the driver and 10" for the passenger. she prefers to sit in than sit on top.

Disappointing that lake Eppalock yielded exactly naught for the afternoon. Hopefully, i will get my eye in for the snapper. Weather forecast was totally wrong, shit day when it was going to be at least 18. How many jackets can yo put on before the life jacket dont fit, hahahahah. I hate melbourne weather.

Noelm
09-09-2018, 06:53 PM
Not too sure how the dealer can say it's too high if it is going better and no cavitation (ventilating) theories and practice sometimes don't align, it also doesn't sound right that you can't lift it any more without a jack plate.

Andy56
09-09-2018, 08:05 PM
Not too sure how the dealer can say it's too high if it is going better and no cavitation (ventilating) theories and practice sometimes don't align, it also doesn't sound right that you can't lift it any more without a jack plate.
Motor is on the highest holes so without drilling out the holes in the transom again, i cant see any other way of lifting it anymore.
what other issues can cause the steering to be heavy? It should be light as, instead its stiff and rather jerky in motion.

RayLamp
09-09-2018, 09:06 PM
The steering cables aren't jammed or coiled too tight somewhere?

scottar
09-09-2018, 09:22 PM
Yep - tight bend in steering cables or a steering pivot tube not greased properly at pre delivery will cause tight steering. Also a poorly adjusted prop torque compensating fin (if the motor has one) or being trmmed in too far. Is the steering tight all the time or only once you start to put revs on?

Andy56
10-09-2018, 06:27 AM
Yep - tight bend in steering cables or a steering pivot tube not greased properly at pre delivery will cause tight steering. Also a poorly adjusted prop torque compensating fin (if the motor has one) or being trmmed in too far. Is the steering tight all the time or only once you start to put revs on?
To be honest, i have only started to think of it as a separate issue. I suspect its stiff all the time. But its early morning and my head is still fuzzy. I will have a gander tonight after work.

Andy56
11-09-2018, 10:25 AM
Better still, whats the distance prop tip to keel tip

Noelm
11-09-2018, 12:24 PM
Just went and measured my bolt holes, from the top lip of the transom to the centre of the top bolt is 60mm and I have two more holes I can lift up, I am going to lift it one more hole, just to see how it goes, my cav plate is close to being inline with the bottom of the boat, not the bottom of the extruded keel.

Noelm
11-09-2018, 12:26 PM
I just realised, a post of mine has vanished, don't think I crossed some site rule, it wasn't having a go at anyone, maybe I was silly and posted it in another thread?

Fed
11-09-2018, 12:55 PM
Sometimes there's a bit of collateral damage when threads get cleaned up Noel.

Noelm
11-09-2018, 01:01 PM
Yeah, seems like a bit of stuff got a haircut, who knows what happened.

gazza2006au
11-09-2018, 05:22 PM
Dementia we are in the same boat Noel LOL

Andy56
11-09-2018, 05:53 PM
Just went and measured my bolt holes, from the top lip of the transom to the centre of the top bolt is 60mm and I have two more holes I can lift up, I am going to lift it one more hole, just to see how it goes, my cav plate is close to being inline with the bottom of the boat, not the bottom of the extruded keel.
I too am 60mm from top of transom to top bolt. I have no more uplift adjustment available.
More pertinant, my prop tip is 66CM from the hull (motor being vertical.)

I too posted today from my iphone and its gone south too.

littlejim
11-09-2018, 06:10 PM
If the stiff steering persists it might be the inside of the 'tilt tube' - it was on mine. (Mine would actually lock up completely, wouldn't move)
This bloke showed me how to fix it.

https://youtu.be/tfMn6bGfAKs

Andy56
11-09-2018, 06:27 PM
If the stiff steering persists it might be the inside of the 'tilt tube' - it was on mine. (Mine would actually lock up completely, wouldn't move)
This bloke showed me how to fix it.

https://youtu.be/tfMn6bGfAKs

seen the video. But a new motor? Dont think it has that problem.

Noelm
11-09-2018, 07:20 PM
Agree, nothing should be needing greasing yet.

Noelm
11-09-2018, 07:22 PM
Sounds kind of odd, admittedly different motor brands, but I still have a couple of holes to raise if I want to.

Andy56
11-09-2018, 08:06 PM
Sounds kind of odd, admittedly different motor brands, but I still have a couple of holes to raise if I want to.

Actually, i would have been surprised if different makes had the same mounting configurations. I suspect the etec prop is further from the hull than on other brands. Thats why i suggested you measure prop tip to hull. I will scratch around and see if any info is about.

Noelm
11-09-2018, 08:17 PM
I will measure it tomorrow morning, do you want the distance back to the hull from the prop with the motor vertical?

gazza2006au
11-09-2018, 08:37 PM
Yes etec i found today is around 30-40mm longer than the 1980's model johnson 225hp i had, the 130hp etec touches the ground where as johno 225hp was 30-40mm off the ground in same location

Andy56
11-09-2018, 09:23 PM
I will measure it tomorrow morning, do you want the distance back to the hull from the prop with the motor vertical?

Yes, at least we can clear up a few issues with this measurement. If we are all trying to get the cav plate roughly in the same ball park, the only difference then becomes how far from the hull the prop is. The further from the hull, the higher the prop needs to go., all within reason of coarse.

stevej
18-09-2018, 02:09 PM
i have a 420sc as well with a 50 yamaha revs out fine 58kph or so wot
id say they have just mounted the outboard incorrectly as others have said there are heaps of these boats about being good bang for the buck and an all round multipurpose boat

ive ordered the under floor fuel tank kit and going to put it in myself as the 24l isnt enough for me

Andy56
18-09-2018, 04:56 PM
i have a 420sc as well with a 50 yamaha revs out fine 58kph or so wot
id say they have just mounted the outboard incorrectly as others have said there are heaps of these boats about being good bang for the buck and an all round multipurpose boat

ive ordered the under floor fuel tank kit and going to put it in myself as the 24l isnt enough for me

I dont think they mounted it incorrectly, if you are pedantic about it. I measured all the holes and distances and it looks like its spot on from a manufacture's point.
It goes all right, i cant argue about that, but it can be a darn sight better. If i hadnt own boats before, i would be non the wiser. I also doubt there would be too many people like me who like to get the most from their toys. I think i have read and watched every video or article on boats ever distributed. lol. a little knowledge can be dangerous to your wallet.
Anyway, a jackplate has been ordered and the next report will be on its fitment and tests.
Just for interest, my prop is a 15" SS. If it becomes way under propped, i may have to consider a 17". What is the yamaha running?

I have considered an under floor tank too but in the end i bought a 10liter spare for $40 and it fits next to the 25. on my last outing, 4hrs on the water and i used sweet FA. I will have to buy some XD100 too, keep as spare. Lots of room for storage on these little boats I am glad to say. And its not as if it seems to affect the attitude of the boat, lots of rear buoyancy. I dare say the jackplate will test this out.

Andy56
18-09-2018, 06:12 PM
for those who are interested, i just found a few articles from the turn of the century (yea, i know, not that long ago) Talking about why the bow rises. its to do with the propellor thrust being directed around the pivot point or center of gravity. Getting the motor at correct height helps to finely balance the thrust around the pivot point. Trimming the motor helps to swing up or down, bow lift or bow plow. That usually happens when the cav plate is just above the water at cruise.
Think of it like a balanced sea saw.

gazza2006au
18-09-2018, 07:07 PM
I'd imagine the bow rises because your trying to push the hull thru, up and on top of the water, look at work barges for instance that run 150hp tiller steer they plane in 2 seconds and the bow doesnt rise

Dignity
18-09-2018, 08:19 PM
Bought my tinnie from a guy that apparently was wanting to get money together to buy a house, only to find it was set up totally incorrectly and was a real dog to operate. Changed height, trim and a different boat. With the setup no wonder he wanted to get rid of it as his wife and kids wouldn't go out. Takes a bit of work on any boat but worth while, trouble is no simple solution.

scottar
18-09-2018, 08:36 PM
Anyway, a jackplate has been ordered and the next report will be on its fitment and tests.


Add a water pressure gauge to your list of things to do so you can tell if you are jacking her up too far.

Andy56
18-09-2018, 08:57 PM
Add a water pressure gauge to your list of things to do so you can tell if you are jacking her up too far.
yes i had the thought too, but as i am only going up till the cav plate is barely out of the water, maybe the equivalent of one or two holes, i should be fine. Did I mention its a manual job? I figure the hydraulic job is over kill for me. Its not a 80mph bass boat after all.
I am not after absolute performance. Just a well balance setup.

Andy56
18-09-2018, 09:35 PM
I'd imagine the bow rises because your trying to push the hull thru, up and on top of the water, look at work barges for instance that run 150hp tiller steer they plane in 2 seconds and the bow doesnt rise

Its more like its not in balance and most of the thrust is directed down causing the bow to rise till you get on the plane, at which point there is a change in forces acting on the hull countering the thrust direction of the prop. On your barge, the prop thrust is in line with the center of gravity, all the thrust is horizontal with minimal vertical force. On mine, a significant proportion of the thrust is directed down on take off as the motor is obviously pointing below the center of gravity. The trim has minimal effect on holeshot because the motor is way too low. Once on the plane, i can trim out to a degree but i can feel its not quite doing as i ask/comand when i trim in. As i said, a finely balanced sea saw is the ideal.

Dignity
18-09-2018, 10:10 PM
Add a water pressure gauge to your list of things to do so you can tell if you are jacking her up too far.

Ok, this is something I haven't heard before, how does this work.

Andy56
18-09-2018, 10:54 PM
Ok, this is something I haven't heard before, how does this work.
when you google jackplates, you get most articles talking about hydaulic jackplates that can be wound up or down via controls on the console. These can give you 5-10" of verticle movement. So if you go too high, the leg water intakes can be out of the water, so, no water cooling! When the water is glassed out, you can run on the limit and gain a couple of km/hr, but if it gets a bit sloppy, the leg can bounce in and out of the water so you would adjust down to compensate. Its of benefit of you know how to harness the adjustments and a water pressure guage helps you stay within safe parameters.
in my case, i dont intend on going for absolute max performance, it will be set and forget, just a balanced performance with plenty of " head room".

stevej
19-09-2018, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE=Andy56;1647229] I also doubt there would be too many people like me who like to get the most from their toys. I think i have read and watched every video or article on boats ever distributed. lol. a little knowledge can be dangerous to your wallet.
QUOTE]

what do you mean by this
overthinking what Is just a tinny can be dangerous to your wallet

Andy56
20-09-2018, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=Andy56;1647229] I also doubt there would be too many people like me who like to get the most from their toys. I think i have read and watched every video or article on boats ever distributed. lol. a little knowledge can be dangerous to your wallet.
QUOTE]

what do you mean by this
overthinking what Is just a tinny can be dangerous to your wallet
no, not overthinking, lol.

just spend on little things that adds up after a while. Sucker for gadgets like most men.

Andy56
05-10-2018, 04:09 PM
Well the jackplate arrive the other day, in the usual way. Delivery guy counts to 10 rapidly then leaves his calling card.
So today i had the day off and decided to ring around for a fit up. Everyone busy for 2-3 weeks and $115/hr and $25 per ss bolt. ( yes it came with no spare mounting bolts ).
Found a lovely guy called Allan in craigeburn and he did it on the spot. He only wanted $100 and when he finished i gave him $130.

First observation. A straight edge from the hull to the motor showed that the cav plate was 2" below !!!! Motor on the highest mount possible. You have to put a ruler, not go by eye. So thats the starting point. So how low was it just by eye initially?::)
After fitting the jackplate, he adjusted the motor for the cav plate to be just above the hull bottom. This was a good 6" above the initial factory setup. I still have 4" of lift if i want, but i only want it to be right, not extreemly right. I will be very surprised if it dont work out now.
Was going to go out on this nice sunny day to test but i have other issues to deal with first. Next week will be the test.

Last week, i pulled out of point richards and turned to portarlington when we came to a full stop. I hit a sand bank, christ what a surprise, lol. So skeg has been sand blasted and the prop has a few dints on the edges. :'( It was a pleasant day out and we caught lots of big squid. :D
On the way back the bow would not drop unless i got to 5000rpm and was extreemly uncomfortable. WTF?:o
On the trailer i can hear the bilge pump but cant see any water anywhere. Undo the bung and half of PPB comes out .
Today i had a closer look and the bilge pump wasnt functioning properly. I could feel eddy currents in the water but nothing exiting. Its a johnson sxf flow 1250g/hr so there should have been a pretty good stream. So on investigation, its a three piece pump. the filter cage gets riveted to the bottom and a cover goes over the impellor. The cover has a hole in the center through which water is sucked up. and the whole piece just clips onto the filter. Who ever fitted the pump was a clumsy oaf and damaged the impellor cover, hence it was sitting off the impellor. The impellor just spun the water around.
What to do? Buy a new pump? Complain to the sales guys? Complain to telwater? I rang the pump suppliers- johnson.
They knew exactly what was required and They are sending me a new impellor cover for free. NOW THAT is good service !!

It could have been me making the news that night. Very sobering that when you buy a new boat, you should give it a thorough shakedown to iron out issues you dont know it has.

PS, the water must have been filling whilst i was busy powering out backwards from the sand bank. So dont jump to the wrong conclusions guys. I just checked the fuel tank and i did go through a bit of juice for the day. It all makes sense now:-[

PS, i couldnt tell that the boat was full of water when we were fishing. It just seemed to cope allright with an extra 100kg i didnt know we had, lol. I think this is a great hull design. The bow was up because as i powered out, the water would all rush to the rear and cause the bow to rise even more until i got on the plane then it would flatten out.. More reports after testing next week

Andy56
05-10-2018, 05:54 PM
Here is a photo of the jackplate.

Andy56
08-12-2018, 12:41 PM
So i did end up going out once more. the bow was still a bit flighty. The boat was porpoising in the 1m swell and i could hear the prop going in and out of the water.
So i clearly have the motor slightly higher than necessary and i need some ballast up forward.

So dropped the motor about 1/4" and went to bunnings and bought a bag of 20kg sand. I put the fuel tank up forward under the casting deck on top of the sand . I ran a fuel line up front and put a water separator 10micron filter next to the bulb. Man that hull is packed with so much closed cell rigid foam, it will never sink, lol.
i was going to go out today but i am still suffering from a head cold caught on a plane. will have to wait an extra week or so and the snapper season is running away from me.

Andy56
10-12-2018, 09:20 PM
So out i go again on sunday. It is better buts still bow light. So now i am going for an extra 40kg up forward.

As a side note, i am getting fuel readings of 4.4km/lt off the axiom. Now, i did spend a lot of time just pottering around with the bow up higher than i liked. At that intermediate speed of not quite on plane or full throttle to get on plane. So clearly i havent got it sorted yet and it just feels like i am plowing the back of the boat. So i do anticipate a better fuel return when i eventually get it sorted.

PS, another donut day unless you count a monster toady and a 3" pinky as fish. The more donut days, the closer to a win, hahaha Nobilong we get the ####ers.
but seriously PPB is starting to become a turn off for me. I am seriously thinking of weekend trips to port welshpool just to get out of this run of outs. Even Eden or Merimbula seem so much more inviting.

scottar
10-12-2018, 10:04 PM
One word.......foil. It's a tinnie, it's light in the nose. Your hull also has a minimum hull speed at which it will work properly. To go slower but keep the bow down, the easiest way is with stern lift. Personally I run a Permatrim on the big boat and a Solas laser foil on the tinnie. The laser foil is stainless and thinner which in my mind means less drag as the AV plate needs to be low due to the keel.

552Evo
11-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Andy, re PPB, what areas are you trying? I’ve done ok in Altona bay - deep, for flattys and gummies except when the water temp is too cold in winter. When my number 1 Deckee comes along that’s the only place she will go on the boat.
Southend of PPB both sides is great for squid and whiting.
Personally (when I’m solo) I prefer to get out of the heads, launch from queenscliff - I’ve done west a few times towards Barwon and Torquay with success, next time I’m going to head east of the the heads and see whet I find there - hoping for kingies this time of year.
In a tinny south PPB should be good.


Saltwater fishing, boat mad but has a job that gets in the way.

Andy56
11-12-2018, 03:37 PM
One word.......foil. It's a tinnie, it's light in the nose. Your hull also has a minimum hull speed at which it will work properly. To go slower but keep the bow down, the easiest way is with stern lift. Personally I run a Permatrim on the big boat and a Solas laser foil on the tinnie. The laser foil is stainless and thinner which in my mind means less drag as the AV plate needs to be low due to the keel.

I think getting the weight distribution right is going to be the key here. The motor is now at the right height. In my mind it will be a better boat getting the hull working properly than over muscling the rear end with a permatrim or foil. To me it makes more sense for the hull and motor to work in unison rather than the hull going in one direction and the motor muscling it all back. Thats not to say i may not go down that path, but at this stage I think its not necessary

I went out with a friend on sunday but before he turned up, i went out solo and the hull behaved itself. It turned easily and stayed level but obviously with this light weight the bow was easily pushed around by waves. So I am encouraged by this behaviour to continue on with the weight balancing. Now the obvious question that most would fear is the extra weight effecting performance. Well it did cross my mind too. But fear not , this 50hp etec is a gun, lol.

Andy56
11-12-2018, 03:48 PM
Thanks 552Evo. My issue is also that i live in sunbury so its a hike. I have mainly been around altona and werribee. Until i have the boat sorted I am not inclined to go out too deep.
The week i caught lots of calamri , i went to indented heads. The other issues are weather and work. Its been crap most weekends. The only day during the week i had off, i got a head cold, and it was a great day. I am off lottery tickets.
I have seen a school of kingies off mornington pier and i mean BIG school. And that was a donut day too, lol.
I have only been to welshpool once with a friend. we hired a boat and anchored off a chanel. We got busted off at every turn. Those were the days of innocence when i couldnt tie a knot to save myself, hahaha. No fish but great day out.

ericcs
11-12-2018, 05:29 PM
is it possible to relocate the portable fuel tank up the front so you can remove ballast, and shift some weight forward?

Andy56
11-12-2018, 06:10 PM
is it possible to relocate the portable fuel tank up the front so you can remove ballast, and shift some weight forward?
Yes I have already moved it forward. Now fuel tanks as ballast have one problem, you tend to use up the ballast. I am getting sand bags from bunnings. they are 20kg and relatively flat 300x300x50mm. In this form, the weight is spread a little rather than concentrated in one pin point. Its also more stable so it doesnt roll around with the boat. I can also form a small indentation to place the fuel tank in so it doesnt slide around everywhere.
The good thing about the basic quintrex fit out is the abundance of storage. Much more than i will ever use. Even the live bait tank is superfluous to me. I dont use it. There is significant storage for light items in this area. I havent quite figured how to plug the holes yet as to me it is a unregulated heavy weight behind the center of gravity. I will probably leave the motor hooked up and plug up the bottom drain ( its not really a drain when water comes in freely ) Will this motor have enough oompf for cleaning hose? I am not going to go all out finding things to put in either. It has more value to me being clean and uncluttered.

stevej
11-12-2018, 09:03 PM
along with the 50l tank kit i added i also installed a motoguide x15 and 40kg of batteries to the front of the boat.
still the nose rides up a little on take off, its just how a light weight tinny with the passenger sitting a midships gets going
previous boats tinnies have been hornets and explorers and this would be worse them all

the stacer version isnt as bad, different bottom shape and affected differently with suction etc as you build speed and climb up an don top of the water

Andy56
25-12-2018, 04:40 PM
So another outing , this time on my own. I have 60kg of sand up front and i moved the fuel tank up forward so altogether 95kg moved forward.
It does go better but the bow still wants to ride up. Its trimmed in all the way yet i have minimal trim action. When i trim out to midway it blows ever so slightly. Its much better on the plane but i wouldnt say i had full or good control. It really does feel like a rear wheel steering car.
I dont want to add anymore sand up forward because its still an issue between moving and getting on the plane. Unless i bog it down with lots of weight, i will still have a problem.
So i thought trim tabs, but i just dont have height below the swim platform on the lefthand side.

So following up on the Se300 thread, I will bight the bullet and get one. Only downside anyone has complained about is a following sea. So , if i do what i normally do, stay in front, there should be no bad issues. And i do have power aplenty to do just that. My one corncern is that once on the plane the handling wont change from what it is now. So prop selection may still come into the equation. I may have to drop the prop another 1/2'' too. But lets see what the foil brings to the table first.

Fuel burn was 10ltr per hr at 5000 rpm. Speed around 42km/hr. ( 15" prop) ( readings from AXIOM) Not sure if thats any good, but seems ok to me. The 50 has plenty of poke when provoked, for this size of boat.

as an aside, i saw a 440 with a 60yamaha on the back perform exactly as mine did stock standard- motor bogged down at low speeds bow in the air. I guess once you get below a certain weight, its hard to get the dynamics right from the get go.

stevej
25-12-2018, 05:35 PM
how hard are you taking off ?
if babying it just punch it and will climb on to the plane quick enough, i have the 50hp yamaha four stroke and with a battery and bow mount i dont have the issues yoru describing.

the etec even though smaller displacement is suppose to have more grunt so should be doing it easy
the big flat surfaces of the quintrex v the stacer V version have more suction to counter when taking off.

if you just gingerly increase revs it will do what you say , as long as the engines mounted at the correct height

Andy56
27-12-2018, 07:48 AM
how hard are you taking off ?
if babying it just punch it and will climb on to the plane quick enough, i have the 50hp yamaha four stroke and with a battery and bow mount i dont have the issues yoru describing.

the etec even though smaller displacement is suppose to have more grunt so should be doing it easy
the big flat surfaces of the quintrex v the stacer V version have more suction to counter when taking off.

if you just gingerly increase revs it will do what you say , as long as the engines mounted at the correct height

well really, there is only one option to get on the plane, give it stick. This goes against everything i understand about mechanical sympathy, lol.

I thought about a foil, but then i ran into other issues. I dont want to drill holes into the cav plate. It wont help handling when on the plane. It will help get on the plane quicker, so it is tempting.
So now i am thinking trim tabs. Smart tabs are not expensive. Only hassle is swim platform on one side, but scottar had a solution many years ago in another forum, cut a hole in the platform. This will give me the added benefit of more control on the plane compared to foils.

stevej
27-12-2018, 04:20 PM
you have a two stroke outboard, giving it a bootfull is not being unkind to it.
corrosion will kill it first

try it first before adding anything

Jeremy
27-12-2018, 04:49 PM
Check that the outboard is mounted at the correct height before you do anything else. You can also look at a wedge to assist with trimming down if required

Andy56
27-12-2018, 07:16 PM
Guys, i have been around boats before, i am not adverse to giving it stick. Its the 2500 -4000 rpm range thats the main problem. I have to crash through to 5000 to get on plane then when i back off slightly, it falls off. so i am on/off the throttle all the time. On a perfectly calm day, its not a real problem, but in PPB, it hardly ever is. I have to keep it fully trimmed in to keep on the plane. This is crap because then the steering becomes very heavy and the boat wanders around. Precisely at the speed and rpm MOST required to travel through the slop. To be frank, its a dog at the moment.
And yes it is at the correct height, jackplate and all. trimming down is not the big issue here, its having the hull sit level at "normal speeds" without constantly wanking on the controls.

stevej
28-12-2018, 08:22 PM
well something is wrong as there are thousands of those combos out there and they dont do what your saying
thats with a foil or not

there would be alot more yamahas out there though as more quintrex dealers are aligned with yamaha because of their y loan finance packages

Andy56
29-12-2018, 08:49 AM
well something is wrong as there are thousands of those combos out there and they dont do what your saying
thats with a foil or not

there would be alot more yamahas out there though as more quintrex dealers are aligned with yamaha because of their y loan finance packages

well i saw a 440 with the bow in the air and motor half submerged, yamaha 60, so i would say there is quite a large number with similar issues. I am not disparaging the boat, just pointing out that they are not setup right from the get go. And dont tell me the cav plate 2" under water on the plane is normal or to improve the situation, the motor needs to go lower.
It suggests to me a lot of people are just putting up with it, not knowing any better.

stevej
29-12-2018, 10:05 AM
not trying to be disparaging here its a pretty simple boat and it should work, join the renegade owners club on facebook and ask the question there, plenty of happy owners.
my cav plate sits level with the surface at wot with no crazy spray but you cant compare a yamaha to a etec with bolt hole positions as every manufacturers leg lengths are slightly different

these are just a step up from a basic tinny thats why they are cheaper then a topender, the stacer has the better bottom shape.

the dealer i got mine through sells 4-5 renegades a week so it seems they know how to set them up and ive had none of the issues you have

it could also be the engine type and the etec just makes torque higher up the rev range then the 4 stroke
from racing 2 strokes thats what i have experienced

the 50hp yamahas a 4 cylinder 996cc at 110kg
the etec 50 is a 2 cyclinder 863cc at 113kg


your dealer should be fixing this, i can tow two adults in a tube at 3000 ish rpm and not drop off the plane
have never fish with 4 adults on it though

Andy56
30-12-2018, 06:51 AM
not trying to be disparaging here its a pretty simple boat and it should work, join the renegade owners club on facebook and ask the question there, plenty of happy owners.
my cav plate sits level with the surface at wot with no crazy spray but you cant compare a yamaha to a etec with bolt hole positions as every manufacturers leg lengths are slightly different

these are just a step up from a basic tinny thats why they are cheaper then a topender, the stacer has the better bottom shape.

the dealer i got mine through sells 4-5 renegades a week so it seems they know how to set them up and ive had none of the issues you have

it could also be the engine type and the etec just makes torque higher up the rev range then the 4 stroke
from racing 2 strokes thats what i have experienced

the 50hp yamahas a 4 cylinder 996cc at 110kg
the etec 50 is a 2 cyclinder 863cc at 113kg


your dealer should be fixing this, i can tow two adults in a tube at 3000 ish rpm and not drop off the plane
have never fish with 4 adults on it though

so your solution is to get the dealer to set it up again? The same dealer who suggested the cav plate at 2" underwater wasnt down enough?

stevej
30-12-2018, 07:19 AM
how am i to know who suggested what, did you read the bit about different engines performing differently as well ?

go find another quintrex dealer.

Andy56
30-12-2018, 11:01 AM
how am i to know who suggested what, did you read the bit about different engines performing differently as well ?

go find another quintrex dealer.

sorry for getting a bit terse, but I have done all of what you suggested.
Have you read the whole thread?
I am now well and trully past that stage.

When my finances will permit, next pay day, i will get the smart tabs. at $179, they are cheaper than no drill foils. I will then play with that setup. If the tabs do all as they say, it will fix the boat up no end.

winston
30-12-2018, 01:26 PM
Andy, I am keen to hear how the smart tabs go. Please keep us posted. Cheers Winston.

scottar
30-12-2018, 01:49 PM
What you are seeing isn't a fault Andy - your own observation should lead you to this - "on a perfectly calm day it isn't really an issue". What I am going to say next may be poorly received by some but - it's a 4.4 metre tinnie mate - it's designed to be used in conditions that are pretty pretty much perfectly calm - same as pretty much any other boat that size apart from a few specialty hulls and certainly the same as any other tinnie the same size. I've lived your issue with my 4.5 that I used for extensive offshore work - difference being it only had a 40hp which meant two things - less transom weight (initially at least until I added other stuff) and with less horsepower the engine was closer to it's happy place in relation to the torque curve at the lower speed - something Steve touched on and a phenomenon I have seen before not just in tinnies but also in bigger offshore rigs using different horse power ratings with the same motor (so identical weight) and I still needed stern lift to get a good ride at low speed.

In my opinion (for what that is worth) you are simply using the boat outside it's design brief - not a problem as such - you simply need to make the necessary modifications to make your hull work the way you need it too. You are on the right track by going looking for stern lift IMO. Personally I would simply drill the holes and go with the foil but there is always more than one way to skin a cat and the Smart tabs should do the same job - much the same way they worked for Geb on the Etec forum. There was a bracket for the top mount on the smart tabs that allowed variation of their positioning - not sure if it was standard supply or optional but IMO worth getting if not standard supply - just gives that bit more adjustability to lift levels

stevej
30-12-2018, 02:19 PM
if we were at a pub boat ramp wherever and having a chat it would be so much simpler, if your in nsw come down for a cod fish and drive mine

i fill the front live well. give it a squirt to get over the hump and done, stay above 2500ish rpm and keep on the plane

as scottar said i have they are just a big blinged up dingy and have some draw backs, i think quite a few things are at play and depending on fit out and engine fitted sometimes you can get handling quirks

Andy56
30-12-2018, 07:45 PM
if we were at a pub boat ramp wherever and having a chat it would be so much simpler, if your in nsw come down for a cod fish and drive mine

i fill the front live well. give it a squirt to get over the hump and done, stay above 2500ish rpm and keep on the plane

as scottar said i have they are just a big blinged up dingy and have some draw backs, i think quite a few things are at play and depending on fit out and engine fitted sometimes you can get handling quirks

Yea, been going over in my mind. I just dropped the motor about 1/2" Its still above the bottom of the hull. Maybe i raised it just a smidgen too much.

I hear what you guys are saying about its limitations, but it is capable of so much more when setup properly. It gives hints every now and then.
I think that getting more lift from the stern is the better option at this stage.

scottar
30-12-2018, 08:23 PM
Yea, been going over in my mind. I just dropped the motor about 1/2" Its still above the bottom of the hull. Maybe i raised it just a smidgen too much.

I hear what you guys are saying about its limitations, but it is capable of so much more when setup properly. It gives hints every now and then.
I think that getting more lift from the stern is the better option at this stage.

From my own experimentation with engine height - by the time you get to the absolute best height for straight line performance, it will aerate in pretty much any sort of turn unless trimmed right in - all due to the keel taking water away from the prop. I had to run mine one hole down. I would trim down to get onto the plane - with the foil it would come up flat and then trim up - you could actually feel when the foil reached the point it was no longer creating drag as I trimmed up at higher speeds - everything would release and come free - and if I turned to watch what was going on down the back, the excess spray from around the leg would drop away at around the same time.

When it got snotty and I had to slow down, the level of trim in was directly proportional to just how snotty it was and just how slow I wanted to go. Yes - the steering would get a bit heavier but at the reduced boat speed it wasn't unbearable and when I changed to hydraulic steering it didn't matter at all apart from if I gave it the beans with the leg trimmed in too far it would push the nose down. I had no issue with lifting the nose when required by trimming out and indeed it was a technique I used on more than one occasion to get myself out of operator induced oh shit moments when crossing South Passage bar

It will be interesting to see the comparative results from the smart tabs given the lift is fixed relative to boat speed (apart from the adjustment bracket if fitted).

stevej
03-02-2019, 10:05 AM
andy how are you going with this ?

Andy56
03-02-2019, 02:52 PM
andy how are you going with this ?

Ran out of money so have to wait a couple more weeks. When your on contract and everyone stops for christmas holidays, guess who doesnt earn any money, lol.
Every outing is about $50 so i havent done too much. I have played with the motor height a bit more. Coming down a 1/2" has made it better but i am hanging out for the smart tabs in a couple of weeks.

stevej
03-02-2019, 04:17 PM
all good just wanted to see how you got on
took mine out today

Andy56
24-02-2019, 09:46 AM
So i finally got payed and bought the smart tabs, 9510-40.
Installation was very basic apart from the cut out for the piston on the left side.
Now, i have to wait for the next weekend to go for a ride.

strathboy
24-02-2019, 06:47 PM
No

Sent from my [device_name] using Ausfish mobile app

stevej
24-02-2019, 07:34 PM
interesting i hope they work

but then ive never seen a 420 with trim tabs, the local dealer had 10 ready for pick up the weekend before last

Andy56
24-02-2019, 08:41 PM
interesting i hope they work

but then ive never seen a 420 with trim tabs, the local dealer had 10 ready for pick up the weekend before last

so many owners with similar issues, permatrim shares are a safe investment, lol

stevej
26-02-2019, 04:52 PM
So many owners with no issues you mean ?

I mean the local dealer had ten new rigs to go on Saturday just gone
Not ten new boats to be fixed

I’m down at Narooma with mine for the week and a quick squirt and on the plane just like any other boat I’ve owned from 3.8 to 5.8m.

Wot with the Yamaha one up 52kph
Full live well
120ah battery
50l fuel


The bow mount and battery has made it even less nose high

On my own I just run round with a full live well if someone’s with me just sit them in the forward seat hole setting


You have a jacking plate and now trim tabs there is something wrong going on or trying to fix something that is just inherent to small tinnies

Would be good to get you on someone else’s setup and just see if it’s a perceived or real fault with your boat to save you spending more money

catshark
26-02-2019, 08:45 PM
just watched three videos on them , they all nose up a wee bit until on the plane, must be design of blade hull and flat aft area in a short length. with 3mm sides and bottom they are strong yet look flighty in the videos, stylish looking and modern. i dont know just looks like the seats and console are a little back too far. weight distribution in this boat i imagine would be a factor to consider.

Paul071978
26-02-2019, 09:07 PM
After so many mods wouldn’t you just request a refund and buy a different boat?

stevej
27-02-2019, 11:01 AM
All boats nose up before planing

If you drive them like a grandad then nose will rise up for ages

Not flighty at all can turn at 50kph no issue


I think the issue here is the boat is performing like any small tinny will

I love mine best tinny ever for what I need

stevej
27-02-2019, 11:42 AM
With all the bells and whistles
Bow mount battteries
Front livewell
50l underfloor fuel tank

I’d say distribution is spot on

Andy56
27-02-2019, 03:39 PM
After so many mods wouldn’t you just request a refund and buy a different boat?

the thougfht did occur to me. This is the last stab at it. I think it will be ok now. First opportunity and i will be out.

Stevej , just becuase they sell a lot doesnt mean there are no issues. Just about every second one has a nose in the air issue or maybe you think its a non issue? the forums are full of people who have the same issues.
Sure if i give it stick, it gets on the plane fast enough now but thats not the issue. I have had tinnies before and thats not a good explanation - its just a tinnie.

Anyway, all shall be revealed when i go out again.

stevej
27-02-2019, 03:56 PM
Please link all the peoples posts complaining because I’ve only ever seen you go to the extent you have
There should be thousands as the renegades and outlaws are popular cheap tinnies

And I’m not defending myself and my purchase

What do you want explained ?
A flat bottom at the rear tinny requires some oomph to get it over the hump past the suction affect ?

People fit foils as bandaids for underpowered, bum heavy or overloaded boats

And I think your boat is bum heavy and only gojng off specs that etec doesn’t compare to a Yamaha four stroke in grunt at low revs

What did the dealer ever say about your concerns

scottar
27-02-2019, 07:41 PM
Warranty - not a chance. There is nothing wrong with the boat IMO. Andy is simply trying to alleviate a normal handling trait that is an incovenience to him due to having a usage pattern outside of what could be classed as typical for a small aluminium boat. The E-Tec may contribute to having to get on and off the gas - anyone who has spent any time around boats with 2 stroke engines knows only too well their tendency to punch a boat on plane but then have the revs run away to varying extents and require throttling back. E-Tec's don't do this to the same extent as a carby two stroke (and the G2's from my limited use don't do it at all) but they still do it. Comparing the E-Tec to the Yamaha - yes, the Yamaha will be happier running around wit the boat not quite on the plane due to the way 4 strokes develop torque and don't tend to run away but at the end of the day, with everything being equal weight distribution wise ( there is so little weight difference between them) the speed at which the hulls would be on a clean plane (not with an elevated bow) would be the same. The speed at which both engines are in their "happy place" though will be different IMO. Andy's boat is not bum heavy (unless he has a big stash of sinkers he's not telling us about) or under powered and as for foils being band aids - opinions vary. I see them as a cost effective option of inducing a handling trait that for some usage patterns is a very much desirable effect. Some don't need them - great - these are owners who are either happier to run at speed and cop the extra forces that doing this entails, slow right down, run with their bow up or they never boat in truly rough open water.

Devices like foils will have varying degrees of user uptake dependant on geographical location. Up here in the Moreton Bay region - you see plenty of them because of the likelihood of magic morning conditions on an open body of water turning to absolute shite later in the day - not dissimilar to Andy's location - trust me when I tell you the bloke that can plane slower is going to have a much more fuel efficient and comfortable ride home than the guy that can't. Running around with your nose in the air isn't the answer - your hull isn't working properly. Getting the bow down at lower than "normal" speeds is what you want. Short of massive amounts of negative trim I don't know of too many easy ways to do this apart from tabs or a foil. We have fun fixed foils on boats right down to a re-rated 3.9 barra punt - it ran a 40hp two banger and was as flighty as hell without them and a right pig to drive in the rough - with them it would pull a smidge over 35knots fully loaded and was a stack of fun on any water that could be considered "normal" for a boat this size and type. Even on bigger boats the difference is massive - I had a day when a faulty fuse holder meant no tabs on my rig when I had removed the foil for testing - it had me bitching and complaining like you wouldn't believe - the foil went straight back on the next day. IMO, Andy is going to be amazed at the difference this last simple modification will make to his boat - it may require a bit of tweaking but I am pretty confident he is going to very close to achieving what he is after.

stevej
27-02-2019, 08:31 PM
Bum heavy as in nothing up front

Am unsure if he still has sand bags up the front

He hasn’t mentioned a electric and batteries or Front live well option and is using a tote tank down the back

The optioned up versions carry 50kg of fuel plus the tank midship

A battery and electric is 40odd kilos in the nose

Add the driver sitting behind the console that puts most of the weight aft of midships

So the diff between his and A boat with all of that
50kg fuel
50kg of water in the live well
And then roughly 40kg of battery and electric up front
140kg makes a huge difference to how it performs

The jacking plate and trim tabs or foil cost would have gone a fair way to buying the live bait tank option or a underflow fuel tank “$1000 each roughly from quintrex”

the 50hp yamahas a 4 cylinder 996cc at 110kg
the etec 50 is a 2 cyclinder 863cc at 113kg

Andy’s only getting 40kph I get 48-52 Kph depending on conditions
I still think something ain’t right with the etec or it’s setup it should get similar speeds

I made a typo In a Earlier post and said 58 which is incorrect

There is nothing wrong bad dangerous abnormal or unusual about have to give a boat some revs to get it planning, everyone has to do it,

scottar
27-02-2019, 09:17 PM
Didn't mean in direct comparrison Steve - just in general. There would be hundreds, if not thousands of similar rigs without the extras so more or less the same as Andy's. I missed the 40Kph WOT - if indeed that is the case there is an issue as my 4.5 did 39 (21 knots) with a 40Hp heavily loaded.

Quick breeze through and one thing that does stand out is a post on reaching 6000 rpm very easily. Optimum RPM for the 50 as best I can find is 5750. Andy - have you done a WOT test to check you are not underpropped? It would explain higher than "normal" revs required to reach and maintain plane. It would also explain a low top end speed.

stevej
28-02-2019, 01:29 PM
I remember with dread trolling with a sold carb two stroke in swell

Not meaning to take the piss out of the bloke just you have done a lot to this boat that seems to be fixing a fault that shouldn’t be there

To say most do it is just untrue

Andy56
28-02-2019, 04:11 PM
Please link all the peoples posts complaining because I’ve only ever seen you go to the extent you have
There should be thousands as the renegades and outlaws are popular cheap tinnies

And I’m not defending myself and my purchase

What do you want explained ?
A flat bottom at the rear tinny requires some oomph to get it over the hump past the suction affect ?

People fit foils as bandaids for underpowered, bum heavy or overloaded boats

And I think your boat is bum heavy and only gojng off specs that etec doesn’t compare to a Yamaha four stroke in grunt at low revs

What did the dealer ever say about your concerns

well for a start its not a flat bottom at the rear tinnie. The 50 etec has more than enough oomph to get over the hump. Its definetly not underpowered. And your comparison with a 4 stroke is delusional, hahahaha. But hey, your entitled to it. At least I have owned both. Bum heavy? possibly but its well within specs.
What did the dealer say? on my first visit, the motor is too high. #### me, the cav plate was a good 4" underwater on the plane, the steering was diabolically heavy and it looked like i was shooting for the stars.
At WOT in calm water, the boat does what its supposed to, any other scenario its not.

Andy56
28-02-2019, 04:19 PM
hold on now Stevej, now your making a few assertions here.

25kg fuel tank, moved forward.
10kg spare tank moved forward
60kg sand bags still sitting under fuel tanks.
i have been out most times with a mate who weights 80kg and he sits on the seat UP FORWARD

sure it makes a difference, but it also still attacks the chop with the nose in the air which forces me to drop the throttle so we dont lose our teeth , then back on the throttle to get the bow down for the next attack. So to me, just altering the center of balance helped but isnt the solution. Oh i see, i should have put 200kg up front........

Andy56
28-02-2019, 04:22 PM
i think you need to update your memory files, an etec isnt a 2 stroke carbie wonder. The only similarity is 2 stroke., the rest is pretty high tech, just like your 4 strokes.
i have been on the quintrex forums and a few others, the issue of bow in the air is very prominent.

And i dont know where you got the 40km/hr at WOT. I see 30m/hr at 5500 with plenty of stick left. ( thats not the Pitot reading, GPS) thats 48km/hr. I would say 50 is on the cards at 6000rpm, lol.

as i said before , on calm water it does what its suppose to do, add chop and it doesnt.

Andy56
28-02-2019, 04:36 PM
Scottar
Look as to the engine running away, i have had that experience before but its not really a motor fault. Its just that the torque curve sits sque-iff of the boat speed. I countered that issue on my signature by going to a 4 blade prop . As if by magic the problem disappeared. The extra grip of the blades tamed the torque nicely.
So i know what your on about, but thats not the issue here. . What your describing comes on slowly. Its just too dramatic an action

stevej
28-02-2019, 04:40 PM
No need to take it personal

Got a link to said quintrex forums ?

There’s been so many replies it’s hard to keep track off what your done and assumptions on how you load the boat of what information you neglect to give

Owning both you understand how a four stroke and two stroke work even a direct injection one

Four strokes hold revs really nice don’t know how saying that’s delusional

Even direct injection two strokes have a power curve that’s different to a four stroke still having tourqe peaking higher in the rev range

The comment on the old carbed engine and surging while low speed trolling off shore was in reply to Scottars comment

You have a hull, engine, how the engines fitted and how the hulls loaded. That’s it
Somethings out of whack from those options if you think there’s a fault still

stevej
28-02-2019, 04:41 PM
Just going off what you posted reguarding speeds and revs on the first or second page
Hence questioning the engine


I just finished a week at Narooma Fishing the Inlet on my own
Quick squirt on the plane would hold it down to 2800-3000 rpm then drop off
No nose in the sky stuff

Two fellas today had bigger renegades 460 and a 440 and they went outside snapper fishing.
I asked them if they had issues and said no

Narooma is a nasty bar braver men then me

Andy56
28-02-2019, 04:44 PM
ok, things have progressed some what Stevej.

my next outing should provide a few answers.

And Stevej, i dont take it personal. Its all great banter. And dont think i havent payed attention to what people have suggested. I too have questioned what i observe and how to correct it many times.

Still its 1/ motor height 2/ wieght distribution 3/ [prop 4/ whats left, hahah foil/trim tabs

Andy56
28-02-2019, 05:02 PM
facebook, quintrex owners, 420

stevej
28-02-2019, 05:29 PM
also
Most of the replies have been while I e been in the boat so may have been a bit blunt

I’ve not had much sleep this last week 2.30 am starts to get a high tide

scottar
28-02-2019, 07:54 PM
Scottar
Look as to the engine running away, i have had that experience before but its not really a motor fault. Its just that the torque curve sits sque-iff of the boat speed. I countered that issue on my signature by going to a 4 blade prop . As if by magic the problem disappeared. The extra grip of the blades tamed the torque nicely.
So i know what your on about, but thats not the issue here. . What your describing comes on slowly. Its just too dramatic an action

All good Andy. Look forward to the results of the tab tests.

Andy56
28-02-2019, 08:45 PM
also
Most of the replies have been while I e been in the boat so may have been a bit blunt

I’ve not had much sleep this last week 2.30 am starts to get a high tide

ouch, just the thought of going to work the next day turns me off, lol

Crooked
01-03-2019, 08:58 PM
I have been following this thread and interested to see how this turns out with the trim tabs.

I have a 4.2 stessco tinny. It is like all the other boats i’ve had in that size, squirt the throttle and once on the plane all good. I hold a plane at 3900 revs with a 40hp 4 Stoke which seems right to me.

I don’t expect this to perform any different, it doesn’t point the nose to the sky unless I have it trimmed out. It’s a tinny after all I take it to the reef in fnq but I have moved the fuel tank forward and put in a forward console.

scottar
01-03-2019, 09:24 PM
I have been following this thread and interested to see how this turns out with the trim tabs.

I have a 4.2 stessco tinny. It is like all the other boats i’ve had in that size, squirt the throttle and once on the plane all good. I hold a plane at 3900 revs with a 40hp 4 Stoke which seems right to me.

I don’t expect this to perform any different, it doesn’t point the nose to the sky unless I have it trimmed out. It’s a tinny after all I take it to the reef in fnq but I have moved the fuel tank forward and put in a forward console.

The revs don't matter IMO. It's the boat speed that counts when it gets snotty. My 4.5 could hold a clean plane via the use of trim with the foil at 8 knots. It made transiting rough water easy on the boat (and on me) albeit slowly. Speeding up to get the bow down so it wasn't burning massive amounts of fuel without the foil in the same conditions meant a trip to the dentist to get your fillings put back in.

Andy56
07-03-2019, 04:52 PM
ok, so many options this weekend yet shit wind conditions predicted. No work today so i took a chance and headed off to Mornington.
A bit lumpy but i thought perfect to test the tabs.
So first impression is that it does sit flat, lol. Motor height does seem ok, no ventilation. Its on the plane at 2500rpm and sits there, no bow pointing to mars getting there. 3000-3500rpm seems to be a good setting to just plow on..
As shit happens, my misses got sea sick 15min in so i took her to back to the boat ramp. As i leave, i start feeling a bit green too.
So i start fishing by just drifting in and out of an area, punching it to see how it goes through the slop. Within the boats limits it now does as its told. If i punch it too hard it will still jump off a wave skywards, but thats just being too keen and asking the impossible from a 400kg tinnie. Its handling has been improved too. It used to be " flighty" and bounce around a fair bit, now it just turns flat.
I now need some good flat conditions to fine tune the setup. The tabs are in the middle position so i have lots of experimenting to do here. The motor too may need fine height adjustments. I was concerned that the tabs would lift the stern to an extent the motor would be out of the water, but that was a false alarm.

What i have now is a jackplate to raise the motor, a good 6" more than the transom mounting holes allowed. 35kg moved forward, 60kg sand bags up forward. Smart tabs. I think all three complement each other in turning a flighty and barely controllable boat into something less difficult and frustrating to drive in bad conditions.

I also feel that the jackplate certainly helped with the motor height but by being 4" further back, it created a weight lever to lift the bow ( at least thats what i suspect). Fortunately the smart tabs seem to have mopped up all the remaining issues. I wonder what i would have done if i went straight to smart tabs? Would i have gone with the jackplate? But seeing as the motor is way way higher with no ventilation, i suspect it still would have been way way too low anyway.
in the words of a greatful dead song, " what a long strange trip its been"

stevej
07-03-2019, 06:40 PM
Saw your post on Facebook after finding the page and joining

If it’s all worked in the end then a good outcome

Andy56
07-03-2019, 07:50 PM
Saw your post on Facebook after finding the page and joining

If it’s all worked in the end then a good outcome
alls well that ends well i say.

Paul071978
08-03-2019, 12:03 AM
Wow finally

You definitely have more patience and perseverance than me. Congrats

Andy56
30-11-2019, 03:41 PM
I thought i would drag out this old post because........
Well i looked at the transom and how high i have the motor with the jack plate. About 5". Its so friggin obvious to me whats going on now!
The renegades with the chopped transom should have a motor with a 20" leg. No if or buts. Thats the only explanation that ticks all the boxes. So I have a 25" leg on my etec.
I think its crazy how telwater dont have a handle on something so friggin obvious to boating. The dealer has my benefit of the doubt, they take instructions from the manufacturer.
I know its taken me a year to have the penny drop, a durrr.:D

stevej
30-11-2019, 03:52 PM
What are you trying to say or imply ?

the old renegades and the new ones only have one transom height to suit a long shaft roughly 20 inch shaft length (every manufacturer is slightly different by a small amount)
https://www.evinrude.com.au/Engines/40HP.aspx
etec 40 only comes in 20inch shaft

would be thousands of these boats out there now all the people who have fitted max hp seem to have no issue.

Andy56
30-11-2019, 11:05 PM
Stevej, Mine has a 25" leg.. I have a 50hp etec.. That explains why it felt and drove like a submarine and pointed the nose sky high on take off. I just wonder how many others are set up this way. It explains why some boats are great out of the block and many others not so.

stevej
01-12-2019, 02:40 AM
That’s not a hull, 4v2 stroke or setup issue, that’s a dealer fitting the wrong engine leg length to a boat issue.

Still didn’t know they did a ultra long leg on the 40/50 etec

scottar
01-12-2019, 06:37 AM
Either dealer or Telwater if it was factory fit. Either a plain and simple mistake, no long shafts in stock at time of order or a deliberate attempt to move old/ hard to sell stock. Pretty annoying. Dealer probably should have picked it up regardless at the pre delivery if they were on the ball.

Fed
01-12-2019, 07:06 AM
I can't find a 25" 50HP anywhere on the BRP website Andy?

scottar
01-12-2019, 07:58 AM
Didn't even look. What's the model number of your engine Andy?

stevej
01-12-2019, 10:08 AM
Even the yanks don’t have a 25 inch listed. 20 inch only

Put a photo up of a ruler against your transom from the bottom sheet to the top of the transom well where the engine would sit

gazza2006au
01-12-2019, 02:39 PM
Andy probably best if u use a imperial tape measure inches for inches... we are metric so u may be getting confused in your measurements

imperial 20 inch to metric is 508mm or 50.8cm

imperial 25 inch to metric is 635mm or 63.5cm

tilt your engine as low as it will go and measure from the transom down to the cavitation plate the cav plate is the one right above the propeller

measure your transom along the transom line from the top to the bottom without the keel

i went thru the usa microfiche for the 2012 models (last listed) and it shows no 50hp Etec's with a XL leg or adapter

stevej
02-01-2020, 11:12 AM
Any updates Andy ?

Andy56
13-01-2020, 09:53 AM
well i just put a ruler down the transom and it reads 20". the motor sits 5" above on the jack plate. You make up your own mind !!

Gazza, i am old enough to know the difference between inches and centimeters, i am pretty sure i can read a tape measure too. I might be 1-2cm out but not 5" out.

I know the specs for etecs say 20" but, a ruler dont lie, even the chinese have standards, lol.

So what else do outboard manufactures lie about, :o:o:o:o:o:o:o

stevej
13-01-2020, 11:11 AM
Can you put a photo up of where you took the measurements of the transom and I’ll go measure mine

Doubt it’s lies
Every manufacturer has a different interpretation of shaft length and where it’s measured from

None are the same
It should be prop shaft to lowest clamp height but it isn t

Etec dont do a extralong shaft outboard in that capacity

stevej
14-09-2020, 03:44 PM
I know it’s a thread necro but I’m over at the coast and decided to measure and video how long it took my renegade with a 50 Yamaha to get up and plane

well I Havnt used the go pro in a while and buggered that up
but driven properly the boat planes within 1-2 boat lengths it’s almost instant

Andy’s left the country so don’t thi k we will ever know his problem but something was seriously wrong with his setup

blacklab
14-09-2020, 04:40 PM
Where's he gone Steve ??
Or did I just miss the point...
I do remember the issues he was having, was quite strange in all honesty...

Col

stevej
14-09-2020, 06:58 PM
Where's he gone Steve ??
Or did I just miss the point...
I do remember the issues he was having, was quite strange in all honesty...

Col

hi col

said he was going overseas for a while and had given up

to add trim tabs to a 4.2m hull is nuts
3/4 throttle launch and its up almost instantly even with 100l in the live wells
full throttle for a few seconds even quicker

poor setup or a dodgy hull would have to be bent like a banana though


more importantly no fish were willing to eat anything over the last three days can only put it down to recent floods

blacklab
15-09-2020, 01:55 PM
Hi Steve,
Yeah, something wasn't right there at all, I agree...
Oh well, maybe he will re post when He's back or starts using it again and we will here any outcomes......

LOL, Hope fish come back on the bite for you soon...

Cheers

Col

stevej
15-09-2020, 05:27 PM
Hi Steve,
Yeah, something wasn't right there at all, I agree...
Oh well, maybe he will re post when He's back or starts using it again and we will here any outcomes......

LOL, Hope fish come back on the bite for you soon...

Cheers

Col

Tried another south coast Inlet today and got a few flathead to make up for the three days of nothing lol

long drive home tomorrow it’s 5 hours to the nearest saltwater for me