Just Dreaming....

[gazza2006au]

Hey Guys

Seeing as i am doing the rebuild in my other thread i am keen as with all this fibreglassing process, just wondering has anyone designed there own boat from absolute beginning i mean from the drawing up right thru the mold making and fibreglassing process by your self or with mates?

what would it involve? i take it you'd need marine architect for the drawing, who could make a cnc foam core on the size of say a 13 foot centre console with a really deep hull, good dead rise and a nice slick hull something that could take an absolute pounding but yet u stay dry, when i say take a pounding i mean a 13 foot boat in 1 meter of sloppy chop something u can just absolutely drill thru the chop yet still have a very stable boat

i would love a small 13 foot centre console that is 2.2-2.3 meters wide that would be unreal for solo fishing something u can handle on a 60-70kph down when the wind decides to pick up and u need to put it back on the trailer your self

i think 13 foot would be very easily manageable to hand lay the CSM and cloth but than again maybe the design is not realistic

what's your opinion?

[Noelm]

You could just flop a mold off an old Haines centre console 445F I think the model was, probably fits the bill for what you are describing. I think making the entire thing from scratch would be very costly.

[ranmar850]

13' long and around 7' wide? Sounds more like a bloody pontoon. Forget about " smashing into a 1 metre chop" with those kind of dimensions. Do you really think you could design something that has never been able to be designed before? Proportions are everything on hull design--you so so many of these little 16' plate CC's that are 2 metres wide "for the deck space" then "we'll put a fine entry on it" . Yeah great, and the transition going aft is so abrupt due to excessive beam it just pounds like crap. Unfortunately, you just cannot have a small boat that acts like a big boat. Many have tried, all have failed. Every boat is a compromise--I just laugh when I hear someone describe their new rig as "no compromise" with their chest puffed out. 8 metres long? Great at sea, but you'll need to buy a yank tank to tow it, a permit, and a good ramp to launch at. And you'll never be able to fish by yourself.
Just pick the compromises you are willing to make, and go from there.

[gazza2006au]

Was just a suggestion ranmah i have no idea about marine architect i would love that amount of space on a small boat tho,

i looked on gumtree for the Haines Hunnet 445 Noel one came up geez they are pricey old boats, this popped up on gumtree little 14 footer something like this would be good, use the big boat for outside work and the little boat for inside and rivers

been watching videos of the mold layup's pretty easy without a chopper gun

[scottar]

The little haines is a great hull - that's why they command the price they do but as Ranmar so subtly advised ;D , it's still a small boat with all the limitations that come with them. Personally my next single handed small rig will be the 4 metre polycraft - tough as nails and won't leave gelcoat on the ramp if there's a bit of a woopsie at launch or retrieve. They also ride pretty well due to the hull flexing a bit under impact but they are still a small boat. That console's a tidy little rig but it's pretty flat on the bottom.

[gazza2006au]

This is probably not possible but is there a way of making a mould from a hull on stands? I'd be happy with my SilverLine 4.5m run about all i would need is the bottom hull skin copied i would than build a new gunnel and inners

[Chimo]

As you continue dreaming have a read of this thread off THT
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/684050-turning-ugliest-boat-costa-rica-into-awesome-28-foot-center-console-diesel.html

This guy is operating in a third world country much like our backyards, and you can see just what is possible.

He has done a few boats and at present he is working on one that he has stitched two halves of the mould that were flopped of another boat. His new boat will also be longer.

Once you start reading this stuff we probably wont hear from you for a week or two as you wont have time to post on AF.

Enjoy.

Cheers
Chimo

[Almako]

Have a look at bowdidge marine designs, Mark will draw something up for you i'm sure.

[scottar]

Have a look at bowdidge marine designs, Mark will draw something up for you i'm sure.

:LMAO:

Didn't Gazza just cut one of these up ???

[gazza2006au]

Lol yeah BMD not for me mate that boat went to the tip there is a lot to the story

[gazza2006au]

Whats the go with patents on these old hulls do any of u know how i can check them out?

[Almako]

Do tell I'm building one

[Ducksnutz]

What about the Jackaroo 445f? Isn’t that a knock off from the Haines 445f? Looks pretty well priced for a new boat.

[Noelm]

Not exactly sure how patents go, lots of boats have been "flopped" maybe just change something a tiny bit, and it's no longer a copy? can you patent a hull? boats have been around for centuries, can you patent one?

[ranmar850]

If you look at Edencraft , Cootacraft and all those others that were based around the old Formula 233, it seems that if you can buy a mould, you've got rights. Patents somehow don't come into it. I know most of those mentioned have been stretched, widened and chopped around in different ways, but they all came from the same basic design. But even having a mould doesn't guarantee you a good outcome--didn't Edencraft destroy a mold they bought, just to get it out of circulation, because it had been flopped from a boat that had been damaged and badly repaired? How many hulls were flopped out of that mold before it was destroyed?
Over here, Chivers made a few new boats based on an old mould of the 210 Pacemaker, a highly regarded older local design. Same bottom, new cap, called it the 650 Predator. No-one said boo, I think they just borrowed the mould from where it was laying unused.

[Fed]

Lol yeah BMD not for me mate that boat went to the tip there is a lot to the story
That's a real shame gazza I was looking forward to see it get finished.

[gazza2006au]

As you continue dreaming have a read of this thread off THT
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/684050-turning-ugliest-boat-costa-rica-into-awesome-28-foot-center-console-diesel.html

This guy is operating in a third world country much like our backyards, and you can see just what is possible.

He has done a few boats and at present he is working on one that he has stitched two halves of the mould that were flopped of another boat. His new boat will also be longer.

Once you start reading this stuff we probably wont hear from you for a week or two as you wont have time to post on AF.

Enjoy.

Cheers
Chimo

Thanks for that link Chimo i am scrolling thru it now interesting read

[gazza2006au]

That's a real shame gazza I was looking forward to see it get finished.
Hey Fed, Mark from BMD use to have a forum dedicated to his design and builders last i stopped building than of late i went to pick back up on the design and Mark has now moved to Facebook, When u build one of his designs u have to become a member of his page on facebook and u must have Mark as a friend on your personal facebook list which is think is ridiculous as i only have family and friends i have grown up my entire life with on my facebook anyhow i made a post and tagged my cousins in it saying i would love to build a big cruiser that was neglected and rebuild it i can only imagine this is where Mark removed me from the group i ended up blocking and deleting him after it so pissed i chopped up the boat and am done with BMD

there is more to the story from the early days 4 years ago pretty much u were a FW if u were going to source your own resin he did however set up contacts for us builders but i really wanted to go with my own resin supplier seeing as they were only 15mins away and there resin was $380 not $600, Mark was against me using my own resin and he use to call me swearing and carrying on with a "3rd person" claiming this 3rd person done what i am doing and blah blah u get the drift, in those early days i couldn't get how he would call up and use a 3rd person as an example to what your doing and swearing carrying on

i don't know if he changed his ways lately but i am over the whole shit fight i am done with BMD that boat has gone to the tip and i am done with them, cost me over $2000 in the plans and build

[gazza2006au]

Not exactly sure how patents go, lots of boats have been "flopped" maybe just change something a tiny bit, and it's no longer a copy? can you patent a hull? boats have been around for centuries, can you patent one?

I was actually thinking of doing this by changing the transom layout from a basic old flat transom to a nice modern look, i really need to get the 18 footer finished and on the water before i take on another project but i would love a smaller boat in saying that a boat from scratch would be mighty impressive something i could possibly keep a while and pass on in the next generation if i have kids

my smaller 4.5m boat would make a great hull plug but its a ready to use boat as it sits would be a mission stripping it and flipping it to use, its pictured below its wide and its deep would make a great CC

[inveratta]

interesting thread....its a wise boat that really knows where it came from originally!!I reckon getting an old hull make it good on the outside and reconfigure as you wish..then hey presto..plug..is the way to go..anyway...I will keep reading this one see where you end up!

[Lovey80]

I am researching this myself. I’ve essentially drawn the boat layout as I want it but would need to contract the design of the bottom/liner/top. Anyone in QLD where you could get very large CNC machining done on a foam core?

[gazza2006au]

Lovey u could probably save a fortune by designing and building your own top, i read the guys in the USA pay $90 per square foot for the hull CNC machining that will cost an absolute fortune here

As for the top the gunnels are easy to make from here just install your stringers and floor than build everything on top of the floor how u plan unless u want to tie the floor into the sides and up to the gunnels? That would be a heck of a job tho

[Lovey80]

The liner/floor and top I’m not so worried about. It’s the hull. @$90 a square foot it may be economical to get it done in the states and shipped over to me.

[GBC]

https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2006-COOTA-CRAFT-13ft-Little-Ram/SSE-AD-5102322/

I believe these little beasties run 24 degrees of deadrise. I don't think you are going to design a 13 footer much closer to your original brief than one of these.

[gazza2006au]

https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2006-COOTA-CRAFT-13ft-Little-Ram/SSE-AD-5102322/

I believe these little beasties run 24 degrees of deadrise. I don't think you are going to design a 13 footer much closer to your original brief than one of these.
Funny enough i came across that brand of boat about 5 days ago it was a video after a video on youtube, they make some awesome boats i would love my CC im building to go like the CootaCraft off shore if u drive a aluminium boat like that it feels like your spine is going to snap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qym9RACs76I

[GBC]

The new coota villain is an Apache offshore race hull. A bit floppy at rest but the business for getting miles done. 13 foot isn’t ever going to stay in the water long enough to go like the bigger ones though. 7.2 m long and still only 2.1m wide. Not everyone’s cup of tea but undeniably a fast hull in the rough.

http://www.cootacraft.com.au/products.php?prod_id=8

[gazza2006au]

Yeah amazing boats i was surprised to see that little 13 footer u linked i thought they only made big go fast offshore boats, i watched a few videos seems the divers love there boats for getting out and back fast think the designer mentioned there hulls are 22 degrees for fast performance, yeah no way i could drive or expect a 13-14 foot model do what these cootacraft are doing out side haha was more thinking for those days in the bay with 2-3 foot of chop maybe a little more when the wind picks up in the afternoons

I know from my history of owning alloy boats any chop over 2 foot or swell and going over 35kph sitting down feels like your spine is going to shoot out your lower back

That is why after a decade of alloy boats i want to go back to fibreglass for the comfy and forgiving ride

[GBC]

I think Mark has stopped making the little ram now unfortunately. Too many squillionaires wanting flash ones. It would run well though. There’s video on YouTube of them playing in the bar with one I think.

[gazza2006au]

Check out this little ram on youtube those two people look comfy as even tho its bouncy no spine snapping pounding that little hull would be perfect but i don't have $10,000 for one lol if i could make one like it that would be awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrDVeXyS5qQ

[Noelm]

I think the guy up the front might be a tad shorter after that trip, but they do go OK, if you want a soft riding 13', just look for one of those old Whalers, they were pretty low sided, but have cat stability, and go really well in chop.

[gazza2006au]

Like this Noel? https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tewantin/motorboats-powerboats/boat-for-sale/1185442870

[EdBerg]

If you are planning on building a female mold then you would need to devote a lot of time, effort and money to do so. You would also need to be doing it with the view of going into commercial production to recoup your start up costs of the molds. Much cheaper to just go and buy a boat that meets most of your criteria. If you are primarily after a wide beam for the length I would advise you to go and look for designs for a catamaran based hull.

As a one off boat for yourself, there are plenty of places you could get the plans for building one ranging from Wooden, GRP, Foam sandwich and Aluminium.
But you need to be aware that there are lots of start up cost involved before you could even begin, some of them are:

1) Place to build it.
2) Tools
3) Plan costs
4) Good building skills for the type of material you are working with, if Aluminium, do you have experience welding it, do you have a good welder capable of welding Aluminium and I don't mean a welder from the likes of Bunning etc.
5) If Fiberglass, will your neighbours or council prevent you from building in the suburbs. Do you have lots of experience in laminating GRP. Noise factor from grinding. Whilst anyone can laminate with some basic instruction it is also so easy to stuff up the boat if you don't have good experience. I used to repair boats for a living and some of the major stuff ups I have seen are unbelievable by people taking shortcuts or by not really knowing what they are doing.

A lot of people do build boats for themselves but it is not a cheap process in time and effort and more importantly money!

So you got to ask yourself do you really want to go through all this for a one off boat?

[Lovey80]

What are we talking for female mold costs?

[gazza2006au]

I guess i never factored in how thick the female mould would need to be from what i have seen of moulds for sale online they are nice and chunky but i guess they need to be if reproducing hull after hull, i thought this part would have been simple just use the thickest chopped strand mat to build up the mould am i wrong in thinking this?

[EdBerg]

Lovey80, To do a proper commercial quality fibreglass mold would probably cost $40+K ( I am being conservative here) for a smallish sized one. Factor in the design costs for the plans, building a male mock up first which has to be the same external quality as the finished product (Ie: Mirror finish), waxing, polishing and preparing that one for building a female mold from the male mock up, reinforcing the female mold, removing it from the male plug,then cutting and polishing the female mold (again mirror finish). Then waxing it multiple times, several+ months of labour (very, very conservative here) and material which would probably be thicker and cost more than the final pulls.

Gazza2006au, the reason that molds are so thick is that resin shrinks as it cures and when you coat the inside of the mold wilh gelcoat, followed by resin and glass, it actually semi sticks to the mold surface and can distort the mold surface upwards when it shrinks so when you add additional layers to the boat it locks it in and gets progressively worse and you can end up with a hooked bottom or sides, so the mold has to resist that. Usually a good design will help to eliminate that but it can still happen if the mold isn't built correctly.

I had a look at the video clip in post #17 and whilst it can be done quite easily to flop a copy as is from an existing boat, he should not have lengthened it, I have seen it done at a factory that I worked at and it didn't look good. Most boats taper down to the back on the sides and on the bottom so doing a 2-3 ft long extension of the back of that boat and adding it to the boat, then making a mold off that means that when you add it, you effectively have just made hooked sides and bottom in the new mold which sticks out like a sore thumb!. While it will float, it will not look good and lose performance as it goes over the water. I mean you can take a bathtub and put an outboard on it and it will float but hardly the most efficient design.

There are other methods of doing GRP boats as a one off pull, which would save a heap of money and time but are quite labour intensive mainly to finish off the visible parts so it doesn't look like a botched home made job. The male plug is the actual boat. All this is provided you know what you are doing and have experience, which sounds like you don't.

Then hope the female mold doesn't stick to the male plug (don't ask me how I found out about that one! :-[), as well as the first pull from the female mold. incidentally you have to do this for all the components of the boat as well, ie: top deck, interior and exterior fittings, seats etc,

A one off Ally boat would be cheaper, quicker and easier provided you can weld Ally and have decent welding gear which you can then sell off when you finish the project to recover some of the costs.

So at the end of the day is it really worth the effort for a smallish one off? If you do still want to build a glass boat then buy boat building magazines such as Muiltihull , etc, most newsagents should have it or something similar and it may start to give you ideas on what to do including links to designers and kit providers etc.

Just my 2 cents worth! My advice would be just buy a good cheap second hand one (as large as possible and preferably a Cat) and spend the time fishing, customize it a bit if you want and enjoy the time fishing instead of wasting a good part of your life sanding, glassing and watching the dollars drain out of your account.

Cheers and good luck.;D

[stevej]

cheaper would be not faffing around and just buying one done from a builder with a loan from the bank or the wife

bonus is you can actually use the boat, have warranty and good resale

some people like to inflict pain on themselves for their hobby though, each their own i guess

[gazza2006au]

Good write up Edberg thanks for that post, i thought it would have been simple just find a design flop a shell off it than make a hull from that maybe in my mind i am simplifying the process i have never done it before i can only see what i read, hear and watch online, i have previously owned hulls which were hooked sadly it went like crap i would most defiantly dislike going thru the whole process to achieve this in the end results

[tug_tellum]

Hey Gazza, To give you a rough idea, I have been in the composite industry now for 45 years and amongst other things, I have made boats for different companies. But when I want a boat I will buy 2nd hand and fix any problems. It works out way cheaper than what you are dreaming about.. Same with a fibreglass ice box. You can buy cheap ones that require a bit of work and fix them up and flowcoat them so they will look like new. You obviously enjoy the challenge and have learned a lot by modifying something to suit you,and thats great. Me,I would rather buy a boat that doesnt require too much work,do it and go fishing .My last fixer upper was a Markam Whaler 4.9. Took the deck off,replaced the transom,from inside and rotted timbers around one side of the deck,then put the deck back on. Simple and quick to do. Didnt interfere with the structural integrity of the hull by doing it this way. Made the transom thicker with ply and put a few knees in there and put the 75hp Mariners back on. Solid as a rock and didnt go to extremes with expensive exotic materials. Kept it as long as I wanted and sold it when I wanted something bigger 25' Mariner flybridge cruiser. My little cat was last seen out on Barwon Banks with the new owner having a great time. He has replaced the engines and has a strong,reliable unit without spending the equivelent of the National Debt.
My opinion only and I dont expect everyone to agree with it,but it worked for me.
tug_tellum

[Noelm]

Like this Noel? https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tewantin/motorboats-powerboats/boat-for-sale/1185442870
Long ago, Whaler made a "proper" cat that was around 13' some had one engine on the side, wasn't too fussed about that one, my mate had one for lake fishing, any chop, it just sliced through it, cat stability and miles of space inside, great little boat.

[gazza2006au]

Tug that is what i am doing in the other thread and loving it new transom, stringers and floor plus modding it with a casting deck

Noel are cats sea worthy? know u own one, i can remember short reports about them saying they were not the best boats and people could not understand why Maritime and Marine Police use them just didn't make sense back than and still does now

[tug_tellum]

Yeah Gazza,I have read what you are doing in the other thread.
Thats way more than what I would do,but you like doing it ,so go for it mate. Me I prefer to do a little work and then go fishing.
I am still working for a living so I dont have that much spare time. Enjoy it Buddy,sounds like its giving you a lot of pleasure and you will end up with what you want.
Tug

[Noelm]

Tug that is what i am doing in the other thread and loving it new transom, stringers and floor plus modding it with a casting deck

Noel are cats sea worthy? know u own one, i can remember short reports about them saying they were not the best boats and people could not understand why Maritime and Marine Police use them just didn't make sense back than and still does now
yes, perfectly seaworthy, they have negatives and positives just like all boats, but, if you want a smooth ride and stability, there is nothing as good, in any brand.

[gazza2006au]

Well that sucks Tug i just typed a good reply before i could hit post it wiped bugger

i don't really have a set day and time to work on the boats i just feel in the mood to do some work here and there, i don't put in 8 hour days i think i would lose interest very fast if i did so all i do is 1-2 hours a afternoon i may stretch it a little longer if something needs to be completed within a time frame like fibreglassing laminates without the sanding but to be honest i really enjoy projects like this i have been a sufferer of major depression from my teenage years i am now 37 it has been a long battle but finding these things i enjoy doing in life makes me feel happy and enthusiastic and excited it kind of gives me energy because i want to see whats around the corner, what i could possibly make of something that otherwise would just be thrown away

i wish i had 10k i would go buy a nice 18 foot centre console and go fishing tomorrow even if it rained cats and dogs haha, i use to be a saver but i am a spontaneous buyer so money never last long in my pocket, i may be broke here and there throughout the builds but in the end i will be spending about 10k on the project but overall i am building the leisure craft i want with all the bonuses i can make from scrap timber bait tank, kill tank, deck, cutting board etc... none of this really cost money or little of because it's all in the labour and passion and will be made from throw away plywood


without having a project like my 18 footer or any other projects i donno where my state of mind would be its kind of a gift in life it gives me something to look forward to in the future

[gazza2006au]

I am probably still dreaming but if i had a stable house that i knew i had the backyard i have now for atlease the next 5 years i would love to build a plywood glen L bandito and use the hull to make a plug its a 30 footer cigarette similar boat just taking a mould off the bottom of hull than turning it into a high powered high speed offshore centre console would be unreal

I dont have the certanty of living here long term with mums dying heart her day could be close or far away hopefully far but i will eventually have to move into a tiny house 1-2 bedrooms likely as i wont be able to afford Sydney rent

But in saying that i would love to make one of these hulls of course wet layup would be literly impossible by just me or even with 1 other person but thats not to say it cannot be easily done with vacuum infusion i have only ever done vacuum bagging once which is kind of similar and on small scale it worked really well, unsure about the set up cost i know my small vacuum bagging setup cost about $400

How hard would it be to vacuum infuse the hull than vacuum infuse the stringers, bulkheads, floor etc? I see this methiod very user friendly as really one man could do it solo

There is a video of a few guys doing one on youtube he is doing somthing like a 28 or 34 footer and said his hull is only 6 layrrs of 600 woving roving

[gazza2006au]

Forgot the picture this is the hull

[Paul071978]

The old Haines 565 have a 22 degree deadrise

[gazza2006au]

Hey pauly i already have a 5.7m i'm rebuilding its my dream boat but i can only dream of a 30 footer go fast offshore centre console wet dreams come to mind

[gazza2006au]

Something like this would be unreal

https://www.gulfstreamcomposites.com/Articles.asp?ID=254