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View Full Version : Anti-sieze on threads, it's dangerous.



Eagle
04-02-2018, 10:06 PM
I worked in the USA for a number of years and part of this was working as a senior engineering instructor for BP Oil in Ohio. My job centered in the maintenance section in the main workshop. One day the men had dismantled an enormous four cylinder flat horizontally opposed ammonia compressor. It was designed similarly to a VW engine but about 5 meters wide. The bolts that held the cylinder heads down were about 32 mm in dia. or maybe even 38 mm. The length of these bolts were equal to the width of the compressor.
As I walked past I noticed that the men were applying Anti-sieze onto the threads of the bolts and into the nuts. I knew from experience that this was not just wrong but extremely dangerous to do. To prove this to the engineering boffins, I sent some emails to two of the major bolt and fastener companies and asked them about this procedure. The following is their basic reply.

Anti-sieze should NEVER be applied to ANY bolt that is highly stressed. The problem is that it is TOO slippery. New bolts and nuts (high quality bolts and nuts) come supplied with a certain amount of lubricant already applied to the threads. This is a maximum amount that will ensure the CORRECT tension on the bolt when torqued up to its design stress. If the threads on the bolt and or nut, are covered in anti-sieze, the extreme lubricating ability of the goo will nullify the torque loads on the bolt. What this means is that if you set the torque wrench to a specific torque stress, the lubricant will allow the nut to be rotated so easily that a MINIMUM torque stress will be applied as a factor of THREE to FIVE times or more. This means that a torque setting of say, 100 ft lbs, can now be at a minimum of 300 to 500 ft lbs.
To tension a high tensile bolt to 5 times greater than its designed load will stress the bolt almost to its breaking point. If a wheel stud is stressed like this, it only needs a sharp shock (like a bump in the road) and the extra loading will snap the bolt. If your "lucky", the bolt/stud will snap before the wheel is used on the road. Anti-sieze should NEVER be used on wheel studs or any stud/bolt where it's essential the correct tension is applied. As well as allowing the nuts to be rotated to a higher torque, they can also undo much easier from vibration and impact loads. Has anyone ever had wheel studs shear off or essential bolts snap? Did you apply Anti-sieze to the threads when you torqued up the nuts? The only place where Anti-sieze works properly is on the studs and nuts that hold the exhaust manifold onto the engine of your car or truck. There are of course many areas where Anti-sieze can be used but it certainly needs care and consideration. It must never be used on a highly stressed part like a bolt.
When I passed the emails from the bolt manufactures to the engineering boffins at the BP Oil refinery, they became very excited, it caused a major maintenance control program to be enacted immediately. It doesn't need much imagination to realise what could have happened if a high pressure, high volume ammonia gas compressor had exploded.
So what lubricant can you use on wheel studs and nuts? You need a lubricant that matches that used on a new bolt. You MIGHT be able to use a lubricant from a spray can but be careful what you choose. To protect the EXPOSED threads of the wheel stud after the nuts have been tightened, you can coat the exposed threads with a light coating of "Silver Fross" paint. This is an aluminium type of paint but I haven't seen it for some years. I used to use in on my aeroplanes and it worked well. Whatever you choose to coat the exposed threads with is your choice and your responsibility.
I hope this info will assist you and be of help.

Eagle

ric
13-02-2018, 08:10 PM
So I apply 100 ft lbs of torque on my bolt with anti seize and it creates an extra 400 ft lbs of torque....Please stay in the USA

scottar
13-02-2018, 08:52 PM
Obviously never worked in commercial maritime. Without anti-sieze shit just doesn't come undone. If you apply enough stick to stainless without it, the stuff picks up and the only way to undo it is with the angle grinder. Large size nylocks are a special for this.

Dignity
13-02-2018, 09:08 PM
Any bolt I try to undo is Highly Stressed 😆😆 seem to always struggle to undo. The figures quoted by Eagle seem rather high to the layman. I asked a mate who builds racecars and he reckoned they would never get most of their bolts undone unless they used anti seize. As the average bloke what bolts would be be trying to do/undo that are highly stressed in every day applications.

552Evo
13-02-2018, 09:18 PM
I can understand the point of no anti seize on wheel nuts due to the constant rotation forces etc.
But I agree that there are plenty of good uses for anti seize in industry, cars and boats.
And thereís a wide variety of specific A/Seize too, for applications in temperature, various metals and alloys etc.


Saltwater fishing, boat mad but has a job that gets in the way.

scottar
13-02-2018, 09:38 PM
Any bolt I try to undo is Highly Stressed  seem to always struggle to undo. The figures quoted by Eagle seem rather high to the layman. I asked a mate who builds racecars and he reckoned they would never get most of their bolts undone unless they used anti seize. As the average bloke what bolts would be be trying to do/undo that are highly stressed in every day applications.

Not just high torques Dignity - anything stainless into alloy (outboard bolts being the obvious one with relevance here) without some form of anti-sieze may not be torqued all that tight going in but they'll need plenty of force to get the bloody things out - if they come out in one piece.

tunaticer
13-02-2018, 11:10 PM
The special lubricant on new bolts is simply residual cutting fluid or soluble oil.
Designed to aid is cutting the threads, nothing more.

I agree that never seize should not be used on torque tensioned bolts due to innaccuracy in getting the correct tension.....not by three or four factors though. Also gives the thread a higher chance of slipping undone.

ozscott
14-02-2018, 05:18 AM
I fitted an ARP Head stud kit to my Land Rover V8 high compression 4.6 a couple of years ago when I did head gaskets. They come with a proprietary lubricant that they recommend for the fine threads and course threads. They also recommended applying to the underside of the nuts. I followed the instructions and torqued up. That motor has been worked hard at times with a heavy tow load and QLD heat and hasn't missed a beat. This lube is specifically designed to get the most even and accurate torques and acts as an anti sieze allowing high tensile bolts to be removed from the allow block threads after many years of service.

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/157-4301.pdf

I also use silver anti-sieze on exhaust manifold bolts as, again, they will not come out easily after many years of use.

Cheers

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Fed
14-02-2018, 07:53 AM
So I apply 100 ft lbs of torque on my bolt with anti seize and it creates an extra 400 ft lbs of torque....Please stay in the USA
It could have been explained a little better ric.

Think of it this way...
A dry bolt torqued to 100 ft/lbs puts X tension into a bolt.
A lubed bolt torqued to 100 ft/lbs can put up to 5 times X tension into the same bolt.
It's all about the resultant tension in the bolt from the torque applied.

TheRealAndy
14-02-2018, 08:59 AM
So I apply 100 ft lbs of torque on my bolt with anti seize and it creates an extra 400 ft lbs of torque....Please stay in the USA

Lol. I think he meant using lubricant increases the load on bolt when torqued to the same amount. This is a well known fact in engineering, its not as mysterious as OP makes out. This is why manufacturers specify the brand and type of lubricant to use where its critical. Eitherway, its common practice to use anti-seize as specified by manufacturers and when engineers do so they will reduce the torque required to get the specified load on the bolt (or bolt threads if you want to be technical).

As for wheel nuts, at best you might get a few percent extra pre-load on the bolt, but you are not (or should not) be torquing them up like you would a head bold on a compressor.

GBC
15-02-2018, 04:46 PM
For prevention of galling in staino/staino and staino/ally in a salt environment we have found industrial lanolin wins every time. If you arenít sure of your galvanic corrosion charts keep well clear of neverseize on boats.

ozscott
15-02-2018, 06:27 PM
GBC I am a big fan of Lanotec and have used it since it came out. I did read somewhere that it may not be friendly on galvanized steel over a long time... What's your experience with this?

Cheers

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GBC
16-02-2018, 06:03 AM
I have no experience with lanolin adversely affecting anything. We have sprayed it over old rusting steel structures with good effect. Always happy to learn though.

wags on the water
15-07-2018, 03:50 AM
Wow - I never knew I was doing it all wrong. TOO slippery....😆😆😆

Did you, mr eagle, have a hand in the BP refinery in Brisbane closing down??

552Evo
13-05-2020, 07:21 AM
Sorry for the old thread revival but after watching this video below a few days back I remembered this exact thread.
I like this blokes work (John Cadogan) and his humour, donít watch all the videos itís too much. But some like this one thatís relevant to my interests is good.
He also has a video explaining towing weights and capacities which is sensible and logical.
Below link is relevant to anti-seize on wheel studs.

https://youtu.be/d7UDy7B0-m8


Jamie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chris69
13-05-2020, 10:58 AM
I worked in the USA for a number of years and part of this was working as a senior engineering instructor for BP Oil in Ohio. My job centered in the maintenance section in the main workshop. One day the men had dismantled an enormous four cylinder flat horizontally opposed ammonia compressor. It was designed similarly to a VW engine but about 5 meters wide. The bolts that held the cylinder heads down were about 32 mm in dia. or maybe even 38 mm. The length of these bolts were equal to the width of the compressor.
As I walked past I noticed that the men were applying Anti-sieze onto the threads of the bolts and into the nuts. I knew from experience that this was not just wrong but extremely dangerous to do. To prove this to the engineering boffins, I sent some emails to two of the major bolt and fastener companies and asked them about this procedure. The following is their basic reply.

Anti-sieze should NEVER be applied to ANY bolt that is highly stressed. The problem is that it is TOO slippery. New bolts and nuts (high quality bolts and nuts) come supplied with a certain amount of lubricant already applied to the threads. This is a maximum amount that will ensure the CORRECT tension on the bolt when torqued up to its design stress. If the threads on the bolt and or nut, are covered in anti-sieze, the extreme lubricating ability of the goo will nullify the torque loads on the bolt. What this means is that if you set the torque wrench to a specific torque stress, the lubricant will allow the nut to be rotated so easily that a MINIMUM torque stress will be applied as a factor of THREE to FIVE times or more. This means that a torque setting of say, 100 ft lbs, can now be at a minimum of 300 to 500 ft lbs.
To tension a high tensile bolt to 5 times greater than its designed load will stress the bolt almost to its breaking point. If a wheel stud is stressed like this, it only needs a sharp shock (like a bump in the road) and the extra loading will snap the bolt. If your "lucky", the bolt/stud will snap before the wheel is used on the road. Anti-sieze should NEVER be used on wheel studs or any stud/bolt where it's essential the correct tension is applied. As well as allowing the nuts to be rotated to a higher torque, they can also undo much easier from vibration and impact loads. Has anyone ever had wheel studs shear off or essential bolts snap? Did you apply Anti-sieze to the threads when you torqued up the nuts? The only place where Anti-sieze works properly is on the studs and nuts that hold the exhaust manifold onto the engine of your car or truck. There are of course many areas where Anti-sieze can be used but it certainly needs care and consideration. It must never be used on a highly stressed part like a bolt.
When I passed the emails from the bolt manufactures to the engineering boffins at the BP Oil refinery, they became very excited, it caused a major maintenance control program to be enacted immediately. It doesn't need much imagination to realise what could have happened if a high pressure, high volume ammonia gas compressor had exploded.
So what lubricant can you use on wheel studs and nuts? You need a lubricant that matches that used on a new bolt. You MIGHT be able to use a lubricant from a spray can but be careful what you choose. To protect the EXPOSED threads of the wheel stud after the nuts have been tightened, you can coat the exposed threads with a light coating of "Silver Fross" paint. This is an aluminium type of paint but I haven't seen it for some years. I used to use in on my aeroplanes and it worked well. Whatever you choose to coat the exposed threads with is your choice and your responsibility.
I hope this info will assist you and be of help.

Eagle

Hes not a Etec owner all there bolts have anti sieze on them.

NAGG
13-05-2020, 12:27 PM
Sorry for the old thread revival but after watching this video below a few days back I remembered this exact thread.
I like this blokes work (John Cadogan) and his humour, donít watch all the videos itís too much. But some like this one thatís relevant to my interests is good.
He also has a video explaining towing weights and capacities which is sensible and logical.
Below link is relevant to anti-seize on wheel studs.

https://youtu.be/d7UDy7B0-m8


Jamie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Love his work & yeh I watched this video yesterday Ö.. very interesting from a guy with an engineering background . He should have had his ming moles helping him

Chris

552Evo
13-05-2020, 01:03 PM
Ha ha Ming Moles
He has a talented descriptive vocabulary for sure and he doesnít sit on the fence with his opinions which is great.
Made in ďStrayaĒ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk