House battery charging from twin DF175 Suzuki's

[Any_Weather]

Gday guys, just interested in how people with twin 175hp Suzuki's are charging their house battery?
My reason for asking is I am blowing fuse links on my aux charging circuits. A bit of background info, motors are 2012 models, pre lean burn. Fitted to boat in late 2014. Reputable dealer fitted engines and fully wired new boat. After 18 months and 200 hours, I was out at Musgrave with a flat house battery. No dramas, swap house wiring over to a start battery for rest of trip. When back on sure found both aux charge fuses blown. Lucky this was our last trip of a 2 week stay.Ring dealer and got new fuses and some spares. No explanation found? 12 months later after another 100 hours, same place and they both blew again? Rang dealer and was told that he has had a few of this same scenario recently and is chasing Suzuki for some info. The short term fix was to remove one of the fuses and only charge from 1 engine as the issue is only on twins.
I did this and the 2nd trip out after holiday was last Sunday and I have blown the single fuse?
What I am interested in is how should I be charging this battery? Some people are now telling me I should not be using this aux charging setup and should be going from my start battery to my house battery via a VSR? If anyone is using the aux circuit, would it be too much trouble to have a look and tell me what position your fuses are in? Originally the fuses were in both the standard and optional positions. After blowing them the first time I put them back as they were. When they blew a month ago I put one in the standard position in one engine and one in the optional position in the other engine. I am now thinking they should both have a fuse in the standard position and only one with the optional position.
The start batteries are consistently 14.6/14.8 volts when running with blown fuses on the optional circuit.

Any info is greatly appreciated whilst I wait for Suzuki to get back to me.

Cheers
Lee


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[Chimo]

Lee

"people are now telling me I should not be using this aux charging setup and should be going from my start battery to my house battery via a VSR"

This is how my twin motor set up was wired by a marine electrician years ago. He actually builds a automatic battery controller that he wired into the boat. No switches or controls that I have to operate. It simply connects the house battery to one of the start batteries after the motor has started and disconnects the house battery
a when the motor is started (to protect the electronics in the boat and
b if the house battery voltage drops too low so the start battery always has sufficient power to start the motor.

Simple cheap and after 17 years use i can say its durable too.

Who ever told you what they told you is probably on the right track so sticking with a system that seems to have issues does not appear to be the way to go IMHO

Cheers
Chimo

[Any_Weather]

Thanks for that Chimo, might be time to investigate the change.
Thanks for the reply
Lee


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[NomadNoosa]

I have no idea of your set up but what gauge wiring is running to your house batteries and have you added anything to the house circuits that may be draining them faster? The only (uneducated) reason I can come up with is that your house batteries may be drained somewhat and drawing more power than the fuses can handle.

Also have you checked you haven't dropped a cell in your house batteries that may also be causing the same problem? It may be worth checking that by pulling them out and charging them/it and seeing how fast they/it drop voltage.

I agree with Chimo that a vsr should be able to solve your issues but it sucks when a designed system doesn't work properly.

Good luck with it.

[Any_Weather]

Gday Nomad, mate nothing extra. Just the basic sounder, gps, bait tank pump etc. No winch or fridge or anything that would drain big power. I gave it a full charge yesterday so I will see how it holds. It is heavy gauge wire, bigger than 6mm2, maybe 10mm2 if that is a size. Only a very short run of maybe 1 meter so should be up to the task.
A VSR seems to be the answer but as you say, it is designed to charge a house battery so yeh, disappointing .
Cheers
Lee


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[Noelm]

The 175 has built in extra charge facility I think doesn't it? If this is what you are using, then there is something wrong, no need to add extra "stuff" to complicate what you have.

[Any_Weather]

Gday Noelm, yes that is correct. They have the provision for an additional charge circuit which is what I have been using. I am not sure the issue really, some say charging 1 battery with 2 currents may be an issue? I have been googling and found a BEP battery cluster in America that I think is designed to charge 1 house battery with 2 engines. It has 2 VSR's. It is BEP part #CC-803N. I haven't found anywhere on the net here in Aus that supplies this. If I can't find a solution with the existing system, I think this is how I will have to go. I am tired of worrying whether my battery will last the trip or not


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[tenzing]

Mate the 175 has an aux charge circuit, if the thing is set up to use it .
No need for Vsr.
Mine went fine for about 500 hrs.( Then new donk,also has it DF200a)

You cant just charge one battery from each motor hey?
No need for aux in that case

[Flex]

are you somehow mixing the two charge circuits(auxiliary/main)? so your house battery is only connected to the charge auxiliary circuit and everything else on that circuit separate from the two main batteries?
would you have a rough diagram on how your boat is wired?
Also what size fuse do you have on that charge circuit?
cheers

[Any_Weather]

Hi Tenzing, I am charging a start battery for each engine off each engine, so 2 start batteries charging individually, and then a house battery that i believe can be charged by either both engines or either engine depending on where the fuses are placed?
Does that make sense?



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[Chimo]

Did you say you are charging one battery with both motors ?

[Any_Weather]

Hi Flex, I didn't think I was mixing charge circuits. I was under the understanding that the start batteries were strictly that however when I think about it now, my voltage does drop when I am starting an engine.
No I don't have a diagram but will investigate further and try and draw one.
The fuse is a 30 amp

Cheers
Lee


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[Any_Weather]

Chimo, yes that is correct, one house battery from 2 engines. That is how it was for the first 18 months before the issue started however now I am only running a fuse in 1 engine therefore only charging from 1 engine but still blowing that single fuse?


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[Any_Weather]

Ok guys, I have pulled the switch cluster out to see exactly what goes where. Each engine is fed from its own switch and there is a parallel switch between them. Then there is a house battery switch that is fed directly from the house battery. Coming out of that switch is an 80amp circuit module. This then feeds to the front (electronics), 2 Anderson plugs and the 2 pink charge circuits, being 1 per engine.

I have checked the house battery voltage after charging it on Tuesday and it is currently 13.01 volts.

I have a pic of my switch cluster but don't know how to attach it? I can only use a phone so is it possible to attach pics from a phone?

Cheers
Lee


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[Dirtyfuzz]

iPhone? Just press the plus sign to bring up options


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[Dirtyfuzz]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170622/8b23c67942bd9d84a9a9d3ee8389fd08.jpg


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[Any_Weather]

115896


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[Any_Weather]

Dirty fuzz, way to easy mate, thanks soo much.


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[scottar]

If you can believe the circuit drawn in their brochure, running two engines aux charge inputs into one battery shouldn't matter. Electrically it ends up no different to running the engine on a single battery without an auxillary output. The suzuki has two separate regulators that in normal use are simply paralleled. When the auxillary charge circuit is used they are split - one for each output. I would be looking at something to do with the wiring possibly as a cause. Do you have a good heavy negative link between all of the batteries onboard? Do you have any battery management gear fitted that monitors current in and out of the batteries?

[Any_Weather]

Hi Scottar, thanks for that. As I say, it worked fine for 18 months with both charging so it possible is something else? The negative links are extremely heavy, I am confident they will be ok. I have taken all the terminals off today and cleaned them. Maybe I will put all the fuses back in and try and eliminate other possible causes.
I don't have any battery management gear at all fitted


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[Moejoes]

Hi Lee,
I have the same setup as you.
Each engine charges each start battery separately.
These are isolated to an isolator switch and I use to run another cable from this through a VSR to the house battery but found the VSR would only last a year or so and wouldn't charge the house battery.
I ended up dumping the VSR after replacing it 3 times and putting in another isolator switch which I turn on whilst running around all day and charges all 3 batteries. I then shut off the isolator switch when anchored at night with no probs.
Just need to remember to do this ;D
I also have solar panels that charge up to a rate of 13amps per hour.
I run everything, stereo all day, Waeco 80ltr fridge, radar etc without any problems apart from having a low house battery in the mornings.
Once underway I switch to all 3 batteries and it charges pretty quickly.
I think you could have a dud battery as Nomad mentioned going by what you are describing.

Cheers Rob.


Hi Tenzing, I am charging a start battery for each engine off each engine, so 2 start batteries charging individually, and then a house battery that i believe can be charged by either both engines or either engine depending on where the fuses are placed?
Does that make sense?



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[Flex]

Ok, If the assembly has been working for 18 months prior then its most likely a field/wiring issue. Genuine short in one of your devices somewhere popping fuses. Coukd be dodgy Anderson plug. Moisture ingress or most likely a wire rubbed through somewhere. Maybe not shorting/grounding all the time but on occasion.
Faulty bilge/deckwash pumps are a big one for popping fuses.
A ceased motor will draw a lot of current.

Do you have access to any multimeters?


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[Any_Weather]

Hi Moejoes, I had heard numerous other people having similar VSR lifespans which was why I was hesitant to go this way. On my last boat I did a similar thing to you with only 1 engine and 2 batteries in turning the start battery off when camped up and charging both when running.
I will keep an eye on the house battery voltage and see if it drops, it is maintaining 13volts at the moment though.
Thanks for your ideas
Lee


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[Any_Weather]

Hi Flex, all my bilge pumps have recently been replaced. The only pump that has not been replaced is the live bait tank pump which was in use on both the last trips when the fuses popped? It has its own inline fuse which is not blowing but?
Yes I have a good multimeter. What are you thinking I should be checking? Can I check current draw on the pump when running without a clamp meter?


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[Moejoes]

Hi Lee,
Get yourself one of these.
http://www.enerdrive.com.au/brands/enerdrive/elite-epro-brands/
Hook it up to your house battery.
It will tell you voltage, Total amps used, amount amps being drawn and amps pumping back into your battery as you have items switched on, percentage of battery life.
You can also hook your start batteries up to it which will only tell you voltage of start batteries.
I find it very informative.
They are in Tingalpa.

Cheers Rob.

[Any_Weather]

Gday Rob, that is exactly what I need. I never even really gave one a thought. I will be on to that straight away. It may not solve my issue but I will certainly be able to monitor it a lot better.
Thanks for the idea
Lee


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[Flex]

So you've got 30amp fuse between the motor charge cables and the house battery?
whats the maximum output current of the 175 auxiliary charge circuit under full load? could it be more than 30 amps? easiest way is to use a clamp meter to see what its actually drawing. The main charge system off the suzuk is capable of about 40 odd amps isn't it?
Could it be as simple as when your doing over night trips your draining your house battery and in the morning you start up and pop your fuse?

Also each device then down stream of the battery has its own fuse?
to test wiring(check the wiring from your outboard to your battery first)
Disconnect all your electronic stuff off your house battery.charging circuit.
Do a quick insulation test to ground/earth to quickly determine if any wiring is down to earth(rubbed through) instead of chasing cables (if your meter can insulation test)
if not id check the integrity of the cables from your outboard regulator to your battery. If its dropping to ground intermittently then that will pop a fuse.
Although this seems unlikely if both motors are doing fuses?..

If your live bait tank pumps ok and works then its probably not the pump.

[scottar]

So you've got 30amp fuse between the motor charge cables and the house battery?
whats the maximum output current of the 175 auxiliary charge circuit under full load? could it be more than 30 amps? easiest way is to use a clamp meter to see what its actually drawing. The main charge system off the suzuk is capable of about 40 odd amps isn't it?
Could it be as simple as when your doing over night trips your draining your house battery and in the morning you start up and pop your fuse?

Also each device then down stream of the battery has its own fuse?
to test wiring(check the wiring from your outboard to your battery first)
Disconnect all your electronic stuff off your house battery.charging circuit.
Do a quick insulation test to ground/earth to quickly determine if any wiring is down to earth(rubbed through) instead of chasing cables (if your meter can insulation test)
if not id check the integrity of the cables from your outboard regulator to your battery. If its dropping to ground intermittently then that will pop a fuse.
Although this seems unlikely if both motors are doing fuses?..

If your live bait tank pumps ok and works then its probably not the pump.

Specs have the total output from two paralleled regulators at 44 amps. No details on the figures when split but making the assumption that the regs are the same - 22 amps total output each so there should be no way any load from the boat should blow the fuse. If however there is something funny going on at the motor end, current from the battery could very definitely blow the fuse. If there was a short to ground in the cables after the fuse there would have been a heap of smoke by now unless there is another fuse in the charge lines at the batteries.

My money at this stage is still on something funny going on with the negative links, the regs themselves or possibly in the actual motor harness/magneto ("upsteam" of the fuse). First thing I would do is a voltage check between all the various negative posts - should be zero volts with any combination.

[Any_Weather]

Thanks guys, lots there to check. I am away for a few days now but will be back onto it on Tuesday. I'll follow all those ideas up and report back with what I find.

Thanks again
Lee


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[Any_Weather]

Gday guys, I got the information from Suzuki and the fuse positions so I have followed that and went for a fish on Tuesday. No issues yet. The information says that 1 engine charges at 30 amps, 2 engines into 1 battery 60 amps so depending on how much charge a battery can handle dictates how many engines you hook up to the battery. I have just gone with 1 engine charging. Can a 100ah house battery accept 60amps of charge?
I did notice on Tuesday that when the engines are not running, my live bait pump pulls the house voltage down to 11.8v? Is this normal? It only goes up to about 13.4v when running engine and live bait pump. With no pump running and engine off it sits at 12.4v and 14.1v with engine running?
I have just got this enerdrive eLite as Moejoes recommended so hopefully will be able to keep a close eye on where the power is going.

Thanks for the advice guys, it is much appreciated.
Cheers
Lee
115912


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[NomadNoosa]

11.8volts is basically 50%. I reckon your battery is cooked if the pump is dragging it down that quickly.
60 amps would ideally be used to charge 300 to 600a/h of batteries.
The 13.4v, 12.4v and 14.1v are surface charge indicators only. I think the 11.8 volts is a true reading as the pump will draw the surface charge off quickly and show the true state of charge. How old is the battery and what type is it? Remember batteries are a consumable just like fuel and need to be replaced every now and again.
Good that your getting to the bottom of it.
Cheers

[Any_Weather]

Hi Nomad, the battery is
2 1/2 years old. I think it is an AGM 100ah.



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[Fed]

Here's some food for thought...
https://www.powerstream.com/SLA-fast-charge.htm

Popcorn anyone?

[Any_Weather]

Interesting read Fed. Some of it sure makes sense, maybe 60 amps is better for the battery than 30 amps?


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[Fed]

I would check how many Amps the pump is pulling under load.

[Any_Weather]

Yes Fed that is the plan. I am just waiting until tomorow to get the wiring to hook up the battery monitor and then I will be fishing again on Sunday so will have a look at the current draw then. Am I expecting less than 3amps?


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[Any_Weather]

I have just checked the battery and after sitting since Tuesday, it is currently at 12.78v, would I be suspecting this battery to be still ok?
Cheers


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[Fed]

I'd expect if it's pulling the battery down so much it will be drawing a lot more than 3A, need to try and identify the pump. It's probably seizing up or on its way out.

[Any_Weather]

Thanks Fed, I know which pump it is as it's the only one I have running. It is a bit of a job to get to it so I will confirm it is the issue before tackling it. Hopefully I will be able to confirm on Sunday that it is the culprit.
Thanks for your time and thoughts
Lee


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[NomadNoosa]

The battery may site at 12.78 amps for a while but without drawing power from it you wont know whether its dropped a cell or not. Before you go and pull your pump out, try and disconnect the battery from everything else and hook it up to something with a constant draw like a light or something like that. If the voltage drops quickly like it did with the pump then I reckon its a fair chance its dropped a cell.

Actually easier way to be sure would be to take it to a trusted auto electrician and get them to load test it.........might cost a couple of dollars if your unlucky but it will either rule it in or out.

2.5 years isn't out of the ordinary for an agm.....some people get more some get less.