Cycone mumblings

[SatNav]

These are the 2 things that stand out for me

1. Marina's. This should not come as much of a surprise to most but a Marina is not the best place to have your boat, too much red tape, too much Marina control of what you can and can't do with your own vessel, having to deal with the attack from other vessels that are poorly prepared and all this comes with absolutely no guarantee, all care no responsibility from the marina owner. Within the cyclone belt there would not be one marina that could be deemed a "safe haven" and secure cyclone anchorage. There are probably only a couple of inlets in the Whitsunday group that might be classed as a cyclone anchorage where one is at the mercy of their own preparedness and capability without all the unaccountable owners. Vessels have ridden out 100 knots for many hours and survived well but a little battered, this I do know.

2. This "Open for business" syndrome that appears to be getting worse. One can see there will need to be some changes and it will probably take litigation following Debbie that might bring this one on, sooner than latter. It is simply unacceptable to be accepting guests into resorts, booking them in and then saying all ferries have now been cancelled and the last opportunity to leave the island was on the ferry that just brought you here and it just left 30 minutes ago. Cyclone evacuation plans should be designed for before the event not after, not that I can say the after evacuation plan was handled very well at all either. This type of stuff can not be left to the 13th hour but there appears to be more importance put on the mighty $$. I say bring this one on.

[kc]

In the Whitsunday region a marina is the only insurable "safe haven". A vessel on a mooring cannot be insured. No vessel is allowed into a marina, without insurance. Pretty straight forward really. All damage to all and any vessel, within a marina, has cover from both the vessels insurance, any damage caused by or to another vessel, and any damage which results from a defect within the marina itself. It becomes an issue for competing insurance companies, but not the actual vessel owners problem. If you are in a marina, even if it is not ultimately completely safe, it is insured. Any vessels at anchor, on moorings or up sh!t creek are not insured, nor are they insured for any damage they cause to other vessels. Cruising yachts, which have an overall roving cover, have to leave NQ during the cyclone season or their insurance is void. When the cyclone hit here last week there were about 500 boats in marinas. Most suffered some level of damage, from simple cosmetics like clears and canopies to more serious like dismasting. and some were sunk. There were about 20 boats on moorings out front Monday night. All were destroyed. Some will have gone to Tramble Bay creeks and woodcutters bay and bluff bay. None of these creeks are capable of taking a vessel with a draft of more than 2 meters. Judging by Shute this morning it looks like about 50 boats were lost and about 20 survived. Wether these were on moorings or up in tramble or woodcutters creeks I am unsure.

As to each islands cyclone plans, having been a GM on 2 Whitsunday islands and 2 cairns islands over the years the plans are extensive, well considered and have patron safety in mind and the logistics are taken into consideration. I have also been a regional councillor. The very thought that you could evacuate Hamilton island, to Airlie beach is absurd. A square peg in a round hole. There is no way the town could cope with the numbers and it is far safer to stay on Hamilton, with the capacity to be airlifted off after if it can't be done before, than to try to get them to the mainland. Hamilton Island airport is flood proof. Proserpine airport was down for 4 days and the roads north and south cut for 2 and 3 respectively.

Mate, stick to fishing advice hey!

[JulianDeMarchi]

1 - what fishing advice?
2 - see 1

[SatNav]

In the Whitsunday region a marina is the only insurable "safe haven"

Insurance requirements are nothing new for anything in a marina, which well applies to any Marina really but it's interesting the slant APM put on this one themselves re "safe haven" "Abell Point Marina is a place of shelter and cannot be guaranteed to be a place of safe haven" which is stated in their own Responsibility and Safety spiel

[Barry Ehsman]

Very well put together reply above kc except for the last sentence, "MATE" why would you use that name on him?

[the gecko]

2. This "Open for business" syndrome that appears to be getting worse. One can see there will need to be some changes and it will probably take litigation following Debbie that might bring this one on, sooner than latter. It is simply unacceptable to be accepting guests into resorts, booking them in and then saying all ferries have now been cancelled and the last opportunity to leave the island was on the ferry that just brought you here and it just left 30 minutes ago. Cyclone evacuation plans should be designed for before the event not after, not that I can say the after evacuation plan was handled very well at all either. This type of stuff can not be left to the 13th hour but there appears to be more importance put on the mighty $$. I say bring this one on.

Ive managed a few Qld resorts and been there during natural disasters. All major resorts warn guests of the weather when we are within a few days of a foreseeable event. Nobody gets on a ferry only to be told at the check in desk that the last ferrry was the one you came on, because all ferry operators warn guests at departure that 'this could be a very bumpy ride, and we might have to cancel future ferries it gets any worse'. All guests who travel within days of a cyclone know what is coming, and make thier decision accordingly. The real problem is with the long stay guests who were at the resort before the cyclone became news, and they might have a week to go on thier stay, and have to make a decision to leave early or ride it out. Once an event hits, all we can do is make the guests stay as comfortable as possible, and invoke the standard safety plans which have already been well thought out. You cannot evacuate people by boat or plane if it is unsafe to do so, so there is no evacuation plan possible for some resorts. Even the mainland resorts at Airlie Beach would have nowhere to send guests if the Bruce Hwy was cutoff. It is the guests decision as to whether he leaves early from his paid stay while the roads are open, or whether he chooses to stay at the resort and accept the risks. As for the money, well most resort units are sold off individually under a strata plan, and we are managing units for 150 different unit owners, and the money goes into a Trust Account , so we cannot issue refunds by law covering Trust Accounts. However we did issue credits for guests to come back and stay again anytime within the next 12 months, which is above and beyond what we are required to do by law.

Just how would you suggest we evacuate people from an island? By submarine?

[scottar]

I think the general gist of point 2 was that, much the same as in a major project situation, a cyclone plan is put in place to ensure that no guests are put in such a position. The last project I worked on used a 600km radius as a start point for demobilization. Once preparations were done - vessels dead shipped and secured on cyclone moorings, we were held on site until the system reached a secondary radius that was the trigger for evacuation. The big issue of course when dealing with both the paying public and private business is finding that happy medium of how, when and who pays for what - probably an impossible situation in reality.

[kc]

Yep. Well written both of you. Comes back to a point I made earlier about shutting your mouth and have everyone think your a fool or opening it and confirming that you are. Best to restrict one's posts to things you actually know something about in cases like this. Cyclones, maritime safety and evacuation plans for islands and local community is something I actually have a few runs on the board with. "Old mate" is only opening his mouth to change feet. Which ones were you on gecho? We might have crossed paths.

[SatNav]

1. At least one thing can be certain an opinion cannot be wrong, just different than others.

2. Possibly needs some more open minds, new thinking even some modern day JSA approach and perhaps throw in a few real ICAM's after the events and actually see what falls out. Obviously there needs some new lateral thinking as stuck in the mud views will simply stay stuck in the mud, maybe some like it that way :)

[the gecko]

Yep. Well written both of you. Comes back to a point I made earlier about shutting your mouth and have everyone think your a fool or opening it and confirming that you are. Best to restrict one's posts to things you actually know something about in cases like this. Cyclones, maritime safety and evacuation plans for islands and local community is something I actually have a few runs on the board with. "Old mate" is only opening his mouth to change feet. Which ones were you on gecho? We might have crossed paths.

I was GM at both Peppers and Ramada Hervey Bay for a while. My mates ran Peppers at Airlie Beach, Port Douglas and Magnetic Island during cyclones, I saw the aftermath. We just had to deal with guests who were flooded in at Hervey Bay when the Bruce hwy was cut. Nothing too major, but the guests tantrums over refunds or extension bookings were the same. Even 2 days before a cyclone, a resort doesnt really know if a cyclone will hit it or veer away to somewhere else. A guest has every right to turn up and enjoy his pre paid booking if he chooses to take the risk that bad weather might infringe on his enjoyment. All we can do is look after them as best we can, and have a generous refund/return stay free next time policy.

[the gecko]

1. At least one thing can be certain an opinion cannot be wrong, just different than others.

2. Possibly needs some more open minds, new thinking even some modern day JSA approach and perhaps throw in a few real ICAM's after the events and actually see what falls out. Obviously there needs some new lateral thinking as stuck in the mud views will simply stay stuck in the mud, maybe some like it that way :)

Thats a pretty vague response. It says nothing. Its not like you to be lost for words. Im actually interested in what you have to say about how the tourist industry could change in regard to major weather events. You might have something to contribute, so please go ahead and tell me, constructively, what changes you would make if you were in charge of the tourist industry?

You raised the subject, the floor is all yours.....

[Camhawk88]

An opinion most certainly can be wrong. An opinion based on a lack of knowledge, steeped in ignorance and shrouded in arrogance should not be accepted because "everyone has a right to an opinion". If the assumptions an opinion is based on are wrong then so too is the opinion. If someone is of the opinion that the earth is flat then that opinion is wrong and can be proven to be by fact.
If you are talking shit don't expect others to stand by and not say so.
Just because you can air an opinion doesn't mean you should.

[SatNav]

Re 2) Evacuation is one thing and there is really not a lot of comparison between Hamilton and some of the other "resorts" do don't try and make a justification out of Hamilton. BUt while the largest industry in Qld was securing their infrastructure, closing down, locking down and evacuating workers ahead of Debbie from their business's, tourist resorts continued to book in guests that arrived on the last ferry to leave the island and this is simply blatant ignorance, like what is wrong with the management of these places? Are they on a quota hit or maybe looking at their bonus cheque or their bottom line, it's certainly not any consideration towards their guests in this case which was a total lack of responsibility.

[Flex]

Why do we always blame the industry/authority when shit goes pear shaped.
Why aren't we blaming the individual idiots who walked onto the last ferry or refused to leave the island earlier?
Where is the individual accountability here? Overseas tourists you can maybe forgive,but
I read of many instances where Australian tourist where still rocking up on resort doorsteps only days prior to the cyclone...

We all to often act like people are sheep and need to always " be informed".
People need to take responsibility for their own safety and not pass it onto someone else..


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[Tracker]

Agree 100% with Flex.;)

[kc]

Satnav you have been banging the wrong drum here since day 1. First trying to convince people "it wasn't that bad", and, in terms of cost and damage it actually is the biggest system every to hit the Qld coast, if not the entire country when the costs are finally established. Now you seem to want to be an expert of managing off shore resorts and evacuation procedures, and, again, you are wrong. Well thought out policies are in place with guests given options right up until lock down occurs. This was, bear in mind, on the advice of BOM and the experts, supposed to Hit Ayr and Townsville. We have had a direct hit by Cat 4 Uilu in 2010? and came through relatively unscathed, lost of a lot of unprepared boats and lost power for 2 days. This one was different. Still no power in much of the area on day 13, unprecedented damage to marine infrastructure, Hamilton Island and the fleet. Damage to daydream and Hayman not seen sine ADA in 1970, and, all this, from a cat 4 that was going to cross the coast some 100 ks north. No loss of life from any of the islands, or mainland area is testimony to good cyclone shelter planning, not the opposite. The islands can not be evacuated to the mainland. The majority of accommodation is in the red and orange zones and had been evacuated, few if any hire cars, buses out were full, so what would YOU do. Drop a couple of thousand people and tourists in transit in Airlie Beach and tell them to just tie themselves to a coconut tree and hang on tight?
No doubt a major debrief will occur with all the relavent authorities and stake holders in the coming weeks and some things will be planned to do better, but, some things, like this cyclone, are just too much to actually plan for and better to be ready to react to. If we went in to "Debbie" mode, every time a cyclone was forecast to hit Townville or Ayr it would be economic suicide. Planning to make sure guests are safe, property is well prepared, staff are safe and being generally ready is usually sufficient and the industry can "usually" be back up and running within a few days. As I have said, this one, is different.

[SatNav]

1. Attitudes like that don't have a place in any tourist or service industry, customer service would be absolutely woeful


Why aren't we blaming the individual idiots who walked onto the last ferry or refused to leave the island earlier?
2. Flex you have absolutely no idea do you?

[SatNav]

1. Ultimately in time there will be a cost, at the moment anything is speculation

2. The Whitsunday islands were evacuated during Yasi and that was a system south of Cairns, so yes it can be done to mimimize the consequences maybe the tourism industry has become a bit complacent, maybe too much wolf?

3. There appears to be this over importance of getting back up and running, we are open for business syndrome at any cost. This approach will be at the detriment of the whole industry

4. What I said was it could have been worse, much worse, you should be thankful it was not any worse and this was just another cyclone, nothing less nothing more but no doubt in time it may turn in another Marcia whitewash. The media hoo haa have many people believing they lived through a Cat 5 with Marcia, 295 km/h winds for 5 hours, what nonsense.

[SatNav]

Re 1) Marina's. Probably needs to be reiterated again that as far as Marina's go there are no absolute cyclone "safe haven" anywhere in the Qld cyclone belt. Anybody who thinks so it kidding themselves big time. One image that will always stick is Hinchinbrook with everything racked, stacked and piled neatly in one corner. Was this the marina "designed" by the villa people, the people who didn't think long tall piles were aesthetically pleasing to the eye as they looked out over their balconies. That extra few feet they found an eye sore may have (but not have) stopped the whole dam show popping clean off the top of the piles and landing in their chardonnay coolers. Cyclones and marina's are not the best of mates, oh that goes for roller doors to :)

[kc]

Again, in fact, your ignorance is showing. The issues at Port Hinchinbrook happened in front of the "yacht club". It happened because Keith didn't like the required height of the poles, impeding the views from the dining room, so the polls were cut down. All the damage from the storm surge, happened in front of the yacht club, which was where the charter fleet was moored. None of the polls attached to the rest of the marina, nor in front of the individuals properties, had any issues with the finger arms and pontoons rising up and lifting off the poles. None of the "villa people" had issues with poles, nor will a marina, even a less than perfect one, ever be worse than being stuck on a mooring or up a creek. Mouth, open, change feet, repeat. I am not usually inclined to call someone a FW, but you, old mate, are getting close. Just leave it alone and I promise people won't think any worse of you. Keep banging on about a subject you clearly no F all about and all you are doing is digging a deeper hole.....or maybe just trolling and I keep biting =(

[SatNav]

1. You have a right to your opinion kc, but if you don't want a discussion then don't keep replying

2. So that would mean you agree there is no "safe haven" marina anywhere in the Qld cyclone belt and I am assuming you actually know what the term "safe haven" implies in the true sense of the word and that marina's even APM waiver the term "safe haven" as they simply can not guarantee such a condition

[Lovey80]

Here we go again.

[Tracker]

dont feed the trolls.;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[Flex]

1. Attitudes like that don't have a place in any tourist or service industry, customer service would be absolutely woeful


2. Flex you have absolutely no idea do you?

Really despise this type of reply. If i'm the one with no idea, then why comment with a question?... explanation would be better.

I was due to take my family on a Holiday to Airlie/hamilton island when the cyclone was looking to hit Townsville belt. Approx a week before it struck.
I cancelled the trip and re-booked. Even if the cyclone was hitting further north the weather would have been crap anyhow. Doesn't take much to check the weather..

So tell me why the individuals on, or going on holidays were unable to do the same?.....

I saw on the news a young lady and her mother flew up from Melbourne to airlie 3 days prior to the cyclone hitting and were whinging they got stuck with no food for 24hours.. media was clinging onto their sob story as they do, blaming the resort for not telling them. ridiculous.

I meant c'mon.

Satnav, you whinge at the individual more than anyone I've ever seen on a forum. Your always crapping on about people not being responsible in boats going offshore/not using radios/epirbs yada yada. So how is this situation any different?..

Please enlighten me..

[the gecko]

, tourist resorts continued to book in guests that arrived on the last ferry to leave the island and this is simply blatant ignorance, like what is wrong with the management of these places? y.

You keep repeating this claim. Tell us where this happened. Please quote a source or link that we can verify.

[SatNav]

This one had all to do with Daydream and in all reality to be continually questioning the validity as if some don't/can't/won't believe it then maybe those coming from the area should look into it further themselves as obviously no amount of hand feeding will ever satisfy some. I am sure this particular one would be all over the Whitsundays?

It is also interesting now that some Daydream staff and past management people have raised the same question/s re management actions, why was Daydream taking in guests at the 13th hour? Maybe the best answers (excuses) would come from Daydream management, ask them.

[the gecko]

OK, I'll bite - but I dont want to be 'hand fed' ;D.

So I did some research, and all of the info is contained here;
http://www.daydreamisland.com/news/cyclone-debbie-updates/

it looks like the cyclone was expected to head north of daydream and then veered towards it. At that point the Harbourmaster made the call to close boat transfers. Surely he is in the best position to make that call and the resorts hands were tied? Then the navy and military got involved and took over evacuations, also the best people to be in charge of that issue.

So I repeat my earlier question, which you avoided; "what do you think SHOULD have happened?"

[kc]

Gecko Trolls don't do "answers", just sh!t stir. It is their reason for living. None the less, another smackdown. One wonders when the guy will get sick of losing? Saw some BI insurance numbers and actual damage estimates from Hamilton Island today. FMD. Eye watering, but also an testimony to just what Hamilton Island has built in just 35 odd years!

[SatNav]

1. Bit of Daydream weaving or Daydream believing going on me thinks. Hey you found the excuses.

2. But moving on from Daydream it's now becoming apparent that many of the Whitsunday aren't up to scratch but the excuses really have to stop, say did you know that South Molle is (sorry was) 1950 circa infrastructure, anyway something just not quite right with that one hey :) Well that's what the Whitsunday tourism representative reckons, saviour at any cost hey?

3. Say kc how was business today?

[Lovey80]

Is this going to be another one of those threads that goes on for ever before Kerry gets booted and the thread locked?

[kc]

Takes a special sort of F#wit to keep backing up. 15% of normal if you really need to know. I know we are not supposed to feed the trolls but it always makes me wonder what is the possible motivation for wanting to be continually being called out as a D#head? I guess while idiots like me keep biting, trolls will keep laying out the bait so maybe the sooner this thread is shut down by the mods, the better. I have been an "ausfisher" sometimes a lot, and sometimes not, for many years and never knew we had trolls. Sign of the times I guess.

[The Silver Unicorn]

You never knew there were trolls here?


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[kc]

Nope. Never been on a thread with one.

[SatNav]

1. Amazing how those in denial want to rabble on about trolls and everything else to try and take the spotlight off their own misunderstandings, however in this case I am very sure kc knows all about the Daydream arrogance and attitude as if he doesn't then he doesn't know everything about anything with the islands. You know exactly what went on don't you kc :) Since this was an event from the 25/3 then it's all behind some (they wish) but hopefully some formal complaints have now been made.

2. The underling issue in all of this was islands continuing to take in guests at the 13th hour in the light of a pending storm when there should have been minimal/skeleton staff on the island and minimal guests, in some ways guests should not have had any option but if guests were not given all the information (and they certainly were not) then that is simply nothing more than poor inexperienced $$ driven management. While the ports and maritime traffic were being shutdown, islands were still landing guests who were not told of the closures until after the event, that stinks.

3. There can be hundreds of good news stories but the press will always run with the 1 bad story, some just don't get it.

4. This now sees the end of my mumblings on this matter, the point has been made.

PS Just noticed APM have "lost" their document link re cyclone "safe haven", must be a technical issue?

[Flex]

Once again Satnav,
Why aren't we blaming the individual tourists staying on the island?
Why blame management at all?
Everyone likes to blame everyone except themselves these days.

Maybe you were one of the drongo's that tried holiday making there during an impending cyclone?...


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[hainsofast]

talk about a bitchfest FFS

[Noelm]

Wasn't going to get into this, because except sometime around 1970 when I was up there during a Cyclone, I don't have a lot of personal experience, but, let's look at this from a different perspective. How do you "measure" the worst Cyclone ever? The strongest wind recorded? pretty easy with weather instruments. The most rain? also easy. The most (dollar wise) damage? not quite as easy, and can change as years go by. The most deaths recorded? I hate to think about that, but it seems to be news headlines all the time. So, from all that, the "worst" is pretty easy to pick, all that said, a Cyclone (or any weather event for that matter) that is much smaller/less intense can do a lot more damage then the biggest one on record, unless you're actually there, or involved in the aftermath, sitting safe and sound a thousand kilometres away means you can just speculate and see what the media wants you to see, but, in this instance, "we" had a real time account (by KC) who was there, I don't see any reason to doubt, berate, down play anything that has been said or reported! Whether the authorities acted properly or not is not up to us to decide, it's their job to do their best, and in the main, they do.

[daveo17]

link to info please what was your source for this claim

2. The underling issue in all of this was islands continuing to take in guests at the 13th hour in the light of a pending storm when there should have been minimal/skeleton staff on the island and minimal guests, in some ways guests should not have had any option but if guests were not given all the information (and they certainly were not) then that is simply nothing more than poor inexperienced $$ driven management. While the ports and maritime traffic were being shutdown, islands were still landing guests who were not told of the closures until after the event, that stinks.

[the gecko]

No, we are not just 'moving on' from Daydream. 'Deflecting' is a tactic which I can spot a mile away.
Im still waiting for an answer on "what do you think SHOULD have happened at the resorts" but I guess I will be waiting a while.....


While we are waiting, we can play a fun game to keep us amused.

Q- What do you call a person who has a total lack of empathy for victims?

A- a sociopath
B- a psycopath
C- a schizophrenic
D- an internet troll

Ok , I will give you a hint. Theres a real answer, and its not D.

[bluefin59]

Ooh oooh I know I pick A

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sociopath

[kc]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[bluefin59]

Sorry KC I couldn't help myself [emoji23][emoji23]