Anchor winch wireless remote

[scottar]

Took a run down to Tipplers on Saturday to have a day out with some friends. Got me thinking about easier ways to anchor the boat off the beach without getting wet. Easiest way I could think of would be a wireless remote for the anchor winch so once the rear pick is set and everyone is on the beach, the slack can be wound out of the front anchor line. Plenty of such devices on Ebay based around 4x4 use. Just wondering if anyone has tried one and what the results were.

[odieman150]

What a great idea scottar i would be very interested in the outcome to this thread. ;D

[ShaneC]

But the front anchor would drop straight down which would not tighten the stern rope. Unless you are suggesting setting the front anchor, then the stern anchor and tying it off, then removing the slack by pulling it out? In which case, that is a cracking idea!!!

[scottar]

That's the one Shane. I do it now with the switch on the dash but end up with wet goolies when I get out by the time the boat is far enough from the beach to allow for a bit of tide. Not cool in winter (pardon the pun). I'm going to give it a crack once I get a new credit card - some lowlife hacked mine this morning but the bank picked it up and cancelled it. Was just wondering if anyone else had tried it. There are "marine" ones available for several hundred dollars but a 4x4 one can be had for $20 odd or less from overseas.

[rayken1938]

12V 50ft Winch Wireless Remote Control Set for Truck Jeep ATV Warn Ramsey (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161311761914?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)( 161311761914 )

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5d 11h left Sunday,14:57 AEST
AU $11.15Buy It Now
+ AU $2.00
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Any ammount of them on ebay they are cheaper from china but usually take a week or so to arrive this one has a full sized remote plus a micro sized one. They are very simple to wire up. I use them for the leccy winches on both my boat trailers.
Cheers
Ray

[scottar]

Cheers Ray.

[ShaneC]

Probably some smarty pants that has developed an app to bluetooth it to your phone. Seems everything else can be done thag way....

[Triple]

what's the range on the remotes?

For those without a anchor winch has anyone tried those springy anchor opens like anchor buddy or b.o.b anchor ropes?

[scottar]

Probably some smarty pants that has developed an app to bluetooth it to your phone. Seems everything else can be done thag way....

Been done - just not with anchor winches yet.

https://www.amazon.com/myLIFTER-MLBSC01-Bluetooth-Enabled-Motorized/dp/B00ZTOV3O4

Probably only a matter of time.

[scottar]

what's the range on the remotes?


Seems to be 50 - 100 feet depending on model. Enough for my application.

[Triple]

Easy to install to try.. And id be looking for a waterproof remote in case it drops in and would save a swim out to the boat.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php/204449-quicklook-with-Moose-Lonestar-Marine-wireless-winch-remote?highlight=Wireless+remote (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php/204449-quicklook-with-Moose-Lonestar-Marine-wireless-winch-remote?highlight=Wireless+remote)

[SAFisherman]

http://www.################.com.au/winches/accessories/

Stress Free have a remote

[foghorn]

The abr wireless remote is cheap enough and has the range but you will have to buy relays that connect to the winch, all up should be pretty cheap.

[gofishin]

As I was speed & skip reading thru your post Scotty I wondered...
... but end up with wet goolies when I get out ... I'm going to give it a crack ...and thought WT? is Scotty on about?? Does the man just have short legs... or a long saggy ...?? [emoji15][emoji15] and what's with the crack thing... [emoji15][emoji15] ... !!!

... and then I read it properly [emoji1].

Ok seriously now, yes, let us know how you set it up, and how it all works out?

On the remotes & boats thing; I was down moored in the SC Marina one time when I guy pulled up in a 50-something Maritimo, wife & young kids inside the air conditioned saloon. He backed up on the totally wrong angle, close to the finger as I thought "here we go...", then he climbed down the f/b ladder and hopped out on to the finger.

I thought WTF...??? I hadn't noticed a joystick remote thingy hanging round his neck until he picked it up and started manoeuvring the big girl in with precision control, stern & bow thrusters and twin screws all 'linked' to the docking control system. Pretty impressive. He said it was just like X-Box, just a lot more expensive when you crash!!

A remote anchor winch control should be a lot less techno, but just as important to us 'peasant boaters' as his remote [emoji1].
Cheers
Brendon

[scottar]

I would say the anchor winch remote is more important Brendon.... Old mate with the Maritimo was never in any danger of wet goolies.;D

[juggernaut]

As I was speed & skip reading thru your post Scotty I wondered...and thought WT? is Scotty on about?? Does the man just have short legs... or a long saggy ...?? [emoji15][emoji15] and what's with the crack thing... [emoji15][emoji15] ... !!!

... and then I read it properly [emoji1].

Ok seriously now, yes, let us know how you set it up, and how it all works out?

On the remotes & boats thing; I was down moored in the SC Marina one time when I guy pulled up in a 50-something Maritimo, wife & young kids inside the air conditioned saloon. He backed up on the totally wrong angle, close to the finger as I thought "here we go...", then he climbed down the f/b ladder and hopped out on to the finger.

I thought WTF...??? I hadn't noticed a joystick remote thingy hanging round his neck until he picked it up and started manoeuvring the big girl in with precision control, stern & bow thrusters and twin screws all 'linked' to the docking control system. Pretty impressive. He said it was just like X-Box, just a lot more expensive when you crash!!

A remote anchor winch control should be a lot less techno, but just as important to us 'peasant boaters' as his remote [emoji1].
Cheers
Brendon

Sounds like he was using a "yacht controller" which can control the shifters and thrusters via remote. I looked into one these myself but at $10k I thought otherwise. I have a side power thruster on my cruiser and they make a combined thruster remote and windless remote for around $600.

[Dignity]

Scottar, a method we used at North West Island and occasionally at Sth Straddie when it wasn't busy was put a SS ring on the anchor chain and run the rode through that and tie it off at the stern. The idea was to drop the anchor where it needs to be, reverse to the shore line, tie off and unload family, beer supplies etc then while still onshore pull the rode in (the bit sttached to the bow) until the boat is where you want it to be then tie off on shore again. Reverse the procedure to board. This requires a little bit more space between boats but is the very, very cheap method, the disadvantage is anyone else can access your boat but as I was camping in a club area we were reasonably secure.

[scottar]

Scottar, a method we used at North West Island and occasionally at Sth Straddie when it wasn't busy was put a SS ring on the anchor chain and run the rode through that and tie it off at the stern. The idea was to drop the anchor where it needs to be, reverse to the shore line, tie off and unload family, beer supplies etc then while still onshore pull the rode in (the bit sttached to the bow) until the boat is where you want it to be then tie off on shore again. Reverse the procedure to board. This requires a little bit more space between boats but is the very, very cheap method, the disadvantage is anyone else can access your boat but as I was camping in a club area we were reasonably secure.


I had a similar set up for my last tinnie Dignity. With the cost of the cheap remote kit it will probably be cheaper than the required stainless ring LOL. The other drama at places like Tipplers or Tangalooma is the peanuts that want to park right beside you and not leave room - seen them try and park in a gap no wider than the boat until they were politely told to "move along" so allowing it to swing isn't really an option

[Dignity]

I had a similar set up for my last tinnie Dignity. With the cost of the cheap remote kit it will probably be cheaper than the required stainless ring LOL. The other drama at places like Tipplers or Tangalooma is the peanuts that want to park right beside you and not leave room - seen them try and park in a gap no wider than the boat until they were politely told to "move along" so allowing it to swing isn't really an option

Agreed, haven't been that way for quite a few years, as I no longer need to do this I haven't worried too much about it other than the odd time we anchor off bribie when we have visitors then it is during the day and usually summer although it would be nice as I'm not a swimmer and prefer to be on top of the water rather than in it.

[gofishin]

Sounds like he was using a "yacht controller" which can control the shifters and thrusters via remote. I looked into one these myself but at $10k I thought otherwise...I thought they might be exy juggernaut. Although I suppose if you are dropping a couple of mill on a boat then what's another 10k! [emoji1]
Cheers

[gofishin]

The only issue I see with the ring system boys is that it would make the anchor twice as easy to pull out, well excluding any friction factor around the ring itself.

However I guess it wouldn't be a system you would use in an iffy situation anyway, so as long as the anchor & chain wasn't borderline to start with, it would certainly save you from the CWG syndrome [emoji1].
Cheers
Brendon

[Dignity]

Gofishin, never had a problem even through some pretty fierce storms which can rip through that area. 6m boat, 15lb danforth, 8m of 8mm close link chain plus rode worked fine as the return rode is lying almost flat on the bottom. The only issue is that you do need to leave just that little bit more room between boats and as Scottar says there can be too many reprobates at Tipplers, further south in the club camping areas it is not an issue.
I like the remote idea but when I was investigating it some 15 years ago it was prohibitive in cost and we even looked at designing our own however with the wife and kids losing all sorts of items I would need to have plenty of spare remotes.

[scottar]

it would certainly save you from the CWG syndrome [emoji1].
Cheers
Brendon

Gold. Now that it has a medical reference term, I wonder if we can get the treatment on the PBS ;D

[scottar]

however with the wife and kids losing all sorts of items I would need to have plenty of spare remotes.

Wife and kids??????? LOL. Usually it's me up them like a rat up a drain pipe for moving my stuff and then having to eat humble pie when it shows up "in a safe spot" later. Definitely getting one with at least two remotes.

[gofishin]

Gold. Now that it has a medical reference term, I wonder if we can get the treatment on the PBS ;DYeah Scotty, although I only just made the name up, I have also sent a letter to Malcolm to get it added to the PBS. [emoji41]

In my letter I have made a specific note that this condition should only be treated by young, good looking female doctors with warm hands. I am waiting for the reply.... [emoji4]

[gofishin]

Gofishin, never had a problem even through some pretty fierce storms which can rip through that area. 6m boat, 15lb danforth, 8m of 8mm close link chain plus rode worked fine as the return rode is lying almost flat on the bottom. The only issue is that you do need to leave just that little bit more room between boats and as Scottar says there can be too many reprobates at Tipplers, further south in the club camping areas it is not an issue.
I like the remote idea but when I was investigating it some 15 years ago it was prohibitive in cost and we even looked at designing our own however with the wife and kids losing all sorts of items I would need to have plenty of spare remotes.Yeah Sam, I know you boys would have it covered. Was more directed to people in ~6m boats, with the $50 'dealer thrown in to the deal' 7lb anchors and 3m of 6mm chain.... or similar.
Cheers
Brendon

[rayken1938]

My mini remote lives on the same lanyard as my i pilot remote and the other in the safety grab bag with flares etc.
Cheers
Ray

[goona]

HI Scottar, I put one of those Ebay remotes on my trailer winch which is a 12000lb Ironman winch. Cost $15. Installation was very easy and it is the best thing I have done. So easy to use. No plugging in the cabled hand piece and as soon as I hook it up at the back of the trailer I press the button and it pulls up the slack. I stand clear and up she goes. It has a range of about 50 to 70 ft not that I need that much for my application but I'd guess that would be enough for what you need. Might get your feet wet but not your tackle!!!!!!!
113923113924

[scottar]

Well the CWGS immunization kit is installed and while not nearly as much fun as Brendon's cure seems to work well. Install was simple with a positive, a negative and two outputs that I simply paralleled up to the outputs off the dash control switch. For the cost of it, well worth doing if you spend the odd day at the beach with the family and the boat.

[gofishin]

Where are the pics Scotty, oh, and the vid of you sitting on the beach with a beer in one hand and the anchor remote in the other while winching the boat out to deep water 😄??

[gofishin]

Fed, which part do you disagree with, or both??


The only issue I see with the ring system boys is that it would make the anchor twice as easy to pull out, well excluding any friction factor around the ring itself.

However I guess it wouldn't be a system you would use in an iffy situation anyway, so as long as the anchor & chain wasn't borderline to start with, it would certainly save you from the CWG syndrome [emoji1].
Cheers
Brendon

[Dignity]

Fed, which part do you disagree with, or both??
We had 2 boats anchored this way at North West Island when cyclone Aivu hit the qld coast in April 1989 and neither dragged anchor. We experienced a high tide for over 2 hours and were on standby to be evacuated to the mainland but fortunately only got a little wet.

We always carry anchors at least one size larger than "recommendations" maybe this helps.

[Fed]

G'day Brendon, I disagree with the "twice as easy to pull out" part mate, to me if it takes 100 Lbs to dislodge an anchor that's not going to change no matter how or what you're pulling it with.
Of course it would be twice as easy on the winch but that would be a good thing rather than an issue as you suggested.
It's the internet mate, always some prick waiting to pick you off.;)
The first thing I did when I read this thread was search youtube for human catapult, funny stuff.

[scottar]

Where are the pics Scotty, oh, and the vid of you sitting on the beach with a beer in one hand and the anchor remote in the other while winching the boat out to deep water ??

Not much of a story to tell Brendon. Kit I decided on came with 12 months warranty from an Ebay site called Sunyee Trading at a grand cost of $25. It came with 2 of these with batteries included113991, one of these113992 Oops......Sorry my bad. Not one of those - that was the other cure;D, One of these113993 (without the Victory attached - that was me) and very little else. The wiring was pretty self explanatory and did need to be extended for where I wanted to mount the receiver (it looks like it's assembled to mount very close to the solenoid pack) - had to be - no instructions - red to positive - picked that up from the switched side of the winch breaker via a 5 amp inline fuse, black to negative on the bussbar and white and yellow being paralleled to the outputs of the existing dash switch 113994 - these two wires come with a 50 percent chance of getting them the right way round .........and a 90 percent chance of getting it the wrong way and having to pull it apart and swap them over - my usual run of luck in this sort of situation held true to form - got it right.......the second time.

Haven't had the opportunity to use it in anger yet but it functioned from a large enough distance across the yard to achieve the desired result.

[gofishin]

G'day Brendon, I disagree with the "twice as easy to pull out" part mate, to me if it takes 100 Lbs to dislodge an anchor that's not going to change no matter how or what you're pulling it with...Fed, I could disagree right back at ya, because I do, but... [emoji6]

All to do with the ring Fed, and the equilibrium balance of the combination of the rode slipping thru it and doing a u-turn around it, AND the chain connected to the ring.

Nothing to do with the winch on the boat, as Dignity's system doesn't use it - in fact doesn't matter what the end of the rode is secured to on the boat.

As I understand Dignity's ring system, the rode is disconnected from the anchor chain, and a ring attached to the chain instead. The rode attaches to the boat and goes through the ring and eventually back to shore, and tied off to a tree/?/something.

The other half of the anchoring system can be done a few ways, but I assume a stern line also goes from the boat to the shore, and as you pull the rode in from the beach, you let the stern line out and the boat moves out, and vice versa. (We used a similar system as a youngster on occasion in PNG with the smaller boats, but the ring was just a SS shackle, and only for day time on a beach etc).

Regardless, it's the ring and the slipping rode which doubles the pull on the chain and hence anchor.

Same principle as a hook pulley used on a trailer winch/4wd winch - but in reverse. The boat load being winched (single pull on the hook side of the pulley = chain off anchoring ring) is halved through the '2 x wires' around the pulley (2 wires pulling on/around pulley = 2 lots of rode round/thru the ring).

In the anchoring system, if the boat exerts 50kg of windage pull/tension into the rode tied to it, and this same rode slips thru the ring, the same 50kg pull is exerted back to the tree on the beach by the same rode doing a u-turn thru the ring. 50 + 50 in the one direction from the ring = 100kg into the chain in the opposite direction. You feel me? [emoji1]

Obviously in practice you need to consider friction, but this wouldn't be that much with say poly rope under water around a SS ring... but then we would also need to consider the vector forces of the rode (x 2 pulls) most likely not being parallel to each other, nor to the chain ... but that's all too hard at this time of night.

A lot less math and geometry in Scotty's fancy remote control system. [emoji1]

Now don't make make me get my coloured pens out and draw you a sexy sketch else I will hit disagree ![emoji1][emoji1]
Cheers
Brendon

[gofishin]

Scotty, can't see any of your pics! Can anyone else?

Edit, now I can see the pics, and a bargain at that price Scotty. Oh, just looked on e-bay for one of those things in pic #2... can't find any though ... maybe another type of website??? Bet she would have warm hands... gloves on or off though...?? [emoji1].

[odieman150]

Thanks for the pics scottar very tidy job ;D

[Dignity]

Brendon, I tin Scottar method the best but 20 years ago such technology was prohibitive. I m not good at maths,geometry, trigonometry etc but the pull would be less than what you quote as the rode generally lies very close to the bottom and yes the stern part is tied back to a tree etc. If you think about it, it really is very little different to being anchored off shore where the swell will lift the bow up and down to a fixed point and move the boat sideways with wind etc and the resulting stress on the chain but in this case the rode is not fixed, there is a bit more pull sideways but over the distance from anchor to shore it is quite minimal.

[Fed]

In the anchoring system, if the boat exerts 50kg of windage pull/tension into the rode tied to it, and this same rode slips thru the ring, the same 50kg pull is exerted back to the tree on the beach by the same rode doing a u-turn thru the ring. 50 + 50 in the one direction from the ring = 100kg into the chain in the opposite direction.

No mate the tree & the boat share the load at 25 Kgs each.

[gofishin]

No mate the tree & the boat share the load at 25 Kgs each.
Not correct Fed, it's the boat that creates the load, and the bit of rope tied to the front of the boat has to pull back with the same force else the boat would end up on the beach. It's not physically possible to half the load with the system I described, as the other part of the same rope goes back to the beach to allow you to move the boat in and out.

It would only be true in your case (25+25) if the same rope goes from the boat, out thru the ring, and back, and slipping thru the ring, then back to the boat. But then what would be the point of the ring - would just use one rope/rode to the chain as normal? Maybe we are talking about 2 different systems?

[Dignity]

Don't forget that the one rope which is tied back to the tree is also then tied to the stern of the boat for the system to work, I won't even try to work out the maths as it really needs someone with an engineering background to work out all the stresses and strains. Talking of strain I think it's time I toddler off to the rsl and tip my hat to the Vietnam Vets for the battle of Long Tan, 50 years now.

[Fed]

I'm going to tie 10 bits of string to my anchor & pull it up with my little finger.
You're right Brendon. 50+50=100:-[

[gofishin]

… as it really needs someone with an engineering background to work out all the stresses and strains...What about a Mechanical Engineering Degree Sam, with Honours …?? But that doesn’t seem to be enough in this case…! ;)

Actually, it doesn’t even need an Engineer to confirm which of the debated theories in this thread is correct or not, as the subject/topic of levers and pulleys and load/effort ratios is covered in senior High School Physics, or at least it was when I learnt it 31 years ago in grade 11! And please note that I don’t mean this in a demeaning or condescending way to anyone, as not everyone does Physics (elective subject) or needs to remember what they have learnt, nor do some even want to do it/learn it – and fair enough too. If so, better stop reading now though. :-?

Whether from High School or Uni, whenever I learnt some theory that I could directly relate to practice, I have always attempted to store it in the part of my brain that is labelled ‘Permanent Storage, useful stuff for future use’, as opposed to the ‘Temporary Storage, only good for passing exams, or getting milk from the shop…’, and as opposed to the other part which is ‘Don’t Bother’ in one ear, bypass the brain, straight out the other – don’t use up good memory space for what is useless info…!

However…lately there must be some system filing errors in the ‘permanent storage’ part though, as sometimes I can’t find something that I am sure I put there! Oh, and funnily enough my wife thinks I have only ever had the latter/third part working, and the temporary storage part resembles a crab pot…!

One such ‘light bulb’/permanent storage moment was when I learnt the theory behind pulleys and load/effort ratios at school, as I could relate it to why dad had used a pulley on the trailer winch to get our heavy 25’ boat up the last half of the trailer. Dad had explained that the pulley halved the load on the winch etc, but it just made a lot more sense when I learned the theory and could work out why. Anyway, I digress, but a comparison between the two might make it easier to grasp the concept Fed…

So consider the first attachment, a boat being winched up a trailer in two ways, and we stop the winch and take a ‘snap’ of the system when the boat presents a 1000kg load to ‘the system’. Top pic in the attachment is with a pulley block, bottom is a direct/single pull. Same boat, same instant/snap. With the pulley block system the 1000kg load is shared equally (again, assuming no friction/losses anywhere) between the pair of cables going back to the winch post. Why? Because an equilibrium balance of the forces about the pulley block must be ‘0’. i.e. If something is pulling in one direction by ‘x’ kg, something(s) must be restraining that force/opposing the pull in the opposite direction.

The boat provides a 1000kg load which transfers thru the bow eye, into the hook, and into the pulley axle. But then, the one cable travels round the pulley by 180 deg, and so both parts of the cable must restrain the force by the same amount, i.e. half the boat load. Therefore, the winch only ‘sees’ half the load, because it is pulling on only one cable. Bottom pic is obvious.

Do you agree with the above Fed?

Now we switch things round a bit and implement some substitutions – but the theory remains the same.

In the top pic, pretend that we substitute the system with the boat being winched up the trailer, with the boat floating off the beach with the anchor ring system in place, but everything switches around… Swap the trailer winch for the floating boat. Pretend to unbolt the winch from the trailer, pretend to grab the winch with two fingers and pull back on the winch – this is now the wind load for the boat with a ring system. Also pretend that the fixed eye on the winch post is the tree on the beach. Also pretend that the boat being winched up the trailer becomes the chain & anchor in the sand, and thus is now fixed and not movable. Also, pretend the trailer winch cable is the rode/anchor rope, and pretend that the pulley is replaced by the ring (remember, we said assuming no friction around the ring). Finally, knock a zero off all the loads/forces in the boat trailer drawing, i.e. we are back to whether 50 + 50 = 100 or not.

When holding the winch we must exert a 500kg load on to the cable going to the 1000kg boat load boat being winched up the trailer (500kg on winch = 50kg wind load in substitution). The same cable (anchor rode) goes round the pulley (ring) and back to the winch post (tree on the beach). This is the same cable (rode) so the winch post (tree) must also pull back/restrain by the same 500kg (tree = 50kg). An equilibrium study of the forces about the pulley block (anchor ring, see bottom inset attachment 2) results in the boat being winched up the trailer pulling back 1000kg (anchor chain pulls back 100kg)… hence the 50kg load into the anchor rode, for the system as discussed/presented, results in the anchor having to withstand 100kg of force (with a frictionless ring). 500 + 500 = 1000, or, 50 + 50 = 100, however you want to look at it.

Refer to the second attachment.


No mate the tree & the boat share the load at 25 Kgs each.This simply does not add up and defies all the laws of physics. What you are saying is that the same rope (anchor rode) has 50kg one side of the ring (pulley), but only 25kg the other (in the same direction) and the anchor sees 25kg in the other direction, i.e. does 50 +25 kg = 25kg??? No!

OR with the boat trailer winching + pulley block analogy… you are saying there is 500kg in the top part of the cable (part A), which the winch is pulling on, but then the same cable going back up to the winch post (part B) only sees 250kg, and somehow it does this with the boat only presenting 250kg of load to the system? The maths & physics just don’t add up.


…to me if it takes 100 Lbs to dislodge an anchor that's not going to change no matter how or what you're pulling it with...This part is true, but we are talking about the load it is going to have to restrain, not what its holding capabilities are. If the anchor can withstand/hold 75 kg of force, a standard single strand anchor system shouldn’t have a problem. Add a frictionless ring and slipping rode into the equation and you will have a big problem if the wind on the floating boat puts 50kg of load into the rode!

Of course in practice everything will be a lot more complicated, and the force balances will be 3-dimensional (and not simply 2-D as per the top inset, just FYI). There will also be friction around the ring, exactly how much will depend on a lot of things. With 0% friction at the ring, the anchor sees twice the load that the wind exerts into the rode from the boat. With 100% friction (i.e. a knot at the ring), the anchor sees the same load as what the wind exerts in to the road at the boat, and the other half of the rode going back to the beach becomes a waste of time J.

Too much physics??? ;D

Cheers
Brendon

1st attachment...

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad140/BrendonTait/Misc%20photos/trailer%20winching_zpsatyhveip.jpg (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/BrendonTait/media/Misc%20photos/trailer%20winching_zpsatyhveip.jpg.html)


2nd attachment...
http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad140/BrendonTait/Misc%20photos/anchor%20ring%20system_zpsetkc6uin.jpg (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/BrendonTait/media/Misc%20photos/anchor%20ring%20system_zpsetkc6uin.jpg.html)

[odieman150]

Does anyone know what happened to the thread about the anchor winch remote? :hammer:

[Fed]

I'm going to tie 10 bits of string to my anchor & pull it up with my little finger.
You're right Brendon. 50+50=100:-[

You wrote a tree because I had a senior's moment & retracted it?

You're right Brendon. 50+50=100:-[

You're right Brendon. 50+50=100:-[

You're right Brendon. 50+50=100:-[
I'll read the tree later.

[gofishin]

You wrote a tree because I had a senior's moment & retracted it?...I didn't read it/take it to mean a retraction Fed, thought you were still disagreeing with the theory. Apologies.

Damn, if I had known that I would have saved a bit of time this morning, nor would I had to fight the kids for their coloured pens or try and get the brain working! :)

[Dignity]

Brendon, way too much maths and physics, I did like the old buried anchor though. At the end of the day no one had a problem regardless and the system is now obsolete due to movement foward in technology and the fact that I no longer camp at Sth Straddie and have no need of it but if necessary I would invest in Scottars little gizmo.