Performance of 2000 model Seafarer V-Sea.

[shakey55]

I took the new boat (new to me) out for its maiden voyage yesterday.

Having owned a 1980 V-Sea with a 60 Johnston, I understand this boat is completely different. I do need some further trials, which I will be doing soon.

The new boat has a 2000 model Johnson 115hp (v4) two stroke which is obviously a lot heavier than the old 60hp. There is also in excess of 100 litres of fuel (under floor). I had four adults (two sitting on the rear seat).

I found it very slow getting up on the plane compared to the old boat.

Is this something I should just get used to or should I look at something like 'Permatrim' or even tabs (not real keen on these or see the benefits of these with a 5 meter boat).

I'd be very interested in hearing your views.

I am happy with the newer V-Sea's but just looking for the view/opinions of others.

I believe the motor is set up correctly. Don't know much about prop size or pitch required.


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[scottar]

If this is to be your "typical" loading, there are a few things to check on first Shakey. Firstly, is the motor height correct - plenty of info about this floating around on either here or other sites. Secondly - are you achieving your required WOT (wide open throttle) RPM. If you can't reach it with a "typical" load then it may be that you may need to reduce the pitch of the prop (new prop required). If both of these things are ok, then it is time to look at things like a Permatrim - best option cost effectively or a set of trim tabs - best option full stop. The only other option would be redesign of the seating arrangements to get weight away from the transom but this would be the most expensive option I would think. You could throw trialling different types of props into the mix as well but my own personal experience with this indicated that the foil and tabs were the two most beneficial items when dealing with transom weight.

[shakey55]

If this is to be your "typical" loading, there are a few things to check on first Shakey. Firstly, is the motor height correct - plenty of info about this floating around on either here or other sites. Secondly - are you achieving your required WOT (wide open throttle) RPM. If you can't reach it with a "typical" load then it may be that you may need to reduce the pitch of the prop (new prop required). If both of these things are ok, then it is time to look at things like a Permatrim - best option cost effectively or a set of trim tabs - best option full stop. The only other option would be redesign of the seating arrangements to get weight away from the transom but this would be the most expensive option I would think. You could throw trialling different types of props into the mix as well but my own personal experience with this indicated that the foil and tabs were the two most beneficial items when dealing with transom weight.

Thanks scottar.

Yesterday was a day on the water.

My normal loading would just be and a mate out fishing. There may be a bit of fishing gear, but this would be stowed away up forward. So there will be less weight in the rear (I dare not guess or mention our ladies weights, I might get the boat taken from me. Ha Ha).

I'm not disappointed with boat or motor, just slow u onto plane, and I do have to get used to a different weight / motor sized boat.

I'm interested to see what happens when only two up or on my own.

I didn't push the new girl to hard yesterday, but at on stage opened her up and speedo read 40 mph, which I'm thinking is not to bad.

I'm not really sure what speed she should do. Not that speed is of a concern.


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[Noelm]

First thing to do is see what max RPM is with normal load (as mentioned) forget the speedo! too big a prop will kill performance, a 115 on that hull is plenty.

[FisHard]

I had the same hull in the Venus with a 90 FICHT. It went pretty good and top speed with a couple of blokes was about 32kts. Not a bad hull imo, dry and safe, but not as good pound for pound compared to the old shape (had one of them too). Play around with props and it will be a weapon with the 115.

[airlock]

I fixed a similar problem with my old cruise craft by playing around with prop sizing and adding a small hydrofoil, much cheaper then trim tabs if its only to get you up out of the hole faster. Try shifting you're gear around a bit as well, any spare fuel, water or heavy items tucked up the front of the boat can help too. While hunting for second hand motors i found the majority were overproped so i would start there.

[Moonlighter]

Really, the 5M Seafarer VSea should go like a scalded cat with a 115 2 stroke on the back even with a really decent load in board. And no I'm not referring to your Mrs!

I am surprised that no-one has suggested a decent service and tune-up for the motor to make sure it's running as well as it should. Compression and leak down tests too. Carbys may also need servicing.

If the motor is fine, the as others have said, the prop or engine height needs to be checked.

first is engine height. Get up to a good cruise speed and trim the engine out to the optimum position. Then get someone to go down to the transom and look over the back to see if they can see the anti-vent plate (large plate directly above the prop), it shouldn't be submerged underwater, should ideally be just skimming the surface or getting some water splashing in top. If it's buried under water, the motor is too deep and this will adversely affect performance. Lift the motor until it's set right before you play with props.

re props, to know whether you've got the right prop requires a test at full throttle with the engine trimmed out as far as it will go without the prop letting go. Find a smooth bit of water somewhere. You need to make a note of what max revs the motor achieves on this test. It should be close to the max recommended revs for that motor. If not, a change of props will be required.

[scottar]

I am surprised that no-one has suggested a decent service and tune-up for the motor to make sure it's running as well as it should. Compression and leak down tests too. Carbys may also need servicing.

.

In a previous post (different thread) Shakey did mention he had a mechanic go right through the motor and all was good - wouldn't have been more than two months ago. No guarantee I guess but I would be doing the WOT trial run at least before handing over coin to mechanics.

[Tim_N]

To get the bum up and ease the load on the engine when taking off, or planning at low speeds, put a Permatrim or similar foil on the 115.
They do nothing more than give you extra planning surface and stop the boat falling off the plane or struggling to get out of the hole, by virtue of lifting the rear.
Lots of boats are way too bum heavy and this is a cheap and simple fix.
You've obviously got loads of hp.
Also, at take off, get the 2 at the rear to stand behind the pilot and deckie to keep the weight more central.
Tim

[Noelm]

No use trying cheap and simple fixes until he knows if there is something to fix! Max RPM is critical to all this.

[DaveR]

As above, first thing to check is WOT RPM. Then you'll know what's going on. I'd suggest it should be doing a little more than 40mph with a 115 2s, chances are it's not reaching the correct WOT RPM due to either too much prop, too low on the transom or both. As always, confirm the engine height is correct before looking into any other solutions.

[FisHard]

If bet my left nut that Lindsay Fry didn't let it leave the factory with this sort of performance shortcoming ;)

[Jarrah Jack]

Don't put any sort of foil on if you intend to do any off shore runs, they can be very dangerous.

[Ocean_Spirit]

What prop is fitted, what is the condition of the hub, and what hole is it mounted at? A photo would help and hull serial number. I can then tell you if it was factory fitted or not.

[Noelm]

Kind of thinking if it's a 2000 model boat and a 2000 model motor, chances are it was fitted from new?

[Ocean_Spirit]

Kind of thinking if it's a 2000 model boat and a 2000 model motor, chances are it was fitted from new?

Noel, not the question I am asking. If it is a factory set-up I'll be familiar with exactly how the engine was mounted and what hole it should sit on. If it was dealer fitted, not so easy.


Most of the factory set ups ran either 17p" or 19p" Viper's. Personally think they run better with an SST prop.

[shakey55]

What prop is fitted, what is the condition of the hub, and what hole is it mounted at? A photo would help and hull serial number. I can then tell you if it was factory fitted or not.

Hi there Ocean_Spirit. Thanks for the offer

I haven't been able to get boat out since initial trials. Have to get my act into gear.

Here is picture of mounted engine and HIN

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/67fe91fc67d0582084fa7d7b87c30ac8.jpg

HIN - AUSEAVC179G999


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[shakey55]

Hi there Ocean_Spirit. Thanks for the offer

I haven't been able to get boat out since initial trials. Have to get my act into gear.

Here is picture of mounted engine and HIN

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/67fe91fc67d0582084fa7d7b87c30ac8.jpg

HIN - AUSEAVC179G999


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Ocean_Spirit did you get a chance to look at this. What are your thoughts.


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[Fed]

https://www.flexibledrive.com.au/products/05/tiny.php

[Ocean_Spirit]

Engine height set up looks standard. Have you got a photo of the propeller?

[Moonlighter]

Engine height set up looks standard. Have you got a photo of the propeller?

Just a bit curious about your comment - simply because the photo seems to show what appears to be a mark fqrom a washer on the lowest hole on the outboard bracket - suggesting that at some stage, that motor has been mounted 2 holes higher on a boat (may not have been on this boat, of course).

But, if it is the original motor fitted to the boat, it seems that at some stage its been set quite a bit higher?

[gofishin]

Could also be marks from the holding bolts when the donk was in the box Grant.
Cheers

[scottar]

Or a previous owner may have experimented - much the same as a lot of us have.

[BeastMaster]

Hi Shakey , you have good top end speed as expected with a 115 hp motor on a 5m boat. Your motor is 15 years old , if it hasnt been rebuilt already , I recon a leak down test may reveal your slow to get her up on the plan issue. I'd suggest you get this test rechecked asap .If you have ring ,valve or cylinder damage it'll be cheaper to address it now . ps you can have good compression in all cylinders , but if they have minor leakage this usually starts to show as difficulty getting up on the plane with load.
Regards
Beastmaster

[shakey55]

The prop.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/29/39dee65a1a40728ccf3454b6a3d2998e.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/29/fed9e8eb7af2dbadc44f8a547b5a23e7.jpg


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[shakey55]

Had the boat out on the Shoalhaven River today.

Full tank of juice and four adults in board. What sort of speed should I be getting.


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[scottar]

Did you do the WOT rpm check??

[Moonlighter]

Shakey, several people have requested that you confirm what rpm the engine is reaching at WOT. No answer from you yet..... Yes, you've advised us of top speed, but that is almost irrelevant unless you also tell us what revs you were running at that speed.

There is a really good reason for this question, and it is very relevant to the issue of performance, that is why several people have asked you this same question.

I will explain why...

Say you've got a 5 speed manual gearbox in your car. Now, imagine if the car is stuck in 1st gear! The car wont go very fast, will it? It will rev like heck, but not go fast.

Now, imagine if it was stuck in 5th. It will have good top speed, but acceleration will be crappy from stopped until it picks up some decent revs and gets into its optimum torque range. It will also be very hard to get off the line!

Thank goodness, cars have multiple gears so we can select a gear to suit pretty well every condition! But on a boat, there is only 1 gear. So the best compromise gear ratio has to be set by selecting the right prop. To get into the optimum torque range at middle rev cruise speeds, the experts and those with experience tell us that you must select a prop that allows the engine to get close to its max stated rpm at full throttle (WOT).

If a prop is fitted that only allows the engine to get to say 4000 when its rated range is 5000-5500rpm, the engine will be lugging, and you will get slow acceleration, the same as you will if you are driving the car away from the stop sign using 5th gear. And fuel economy will be bad too, and you will be labouring the engine and reducing its life. And despite what some people seem to think, you dont actually get faster top speed by putting a prop on that wont allow the engine to rev out to near its max recommended rpm. This condition is called being over-propped. It is bad.

So, what revs was the engine hitting at the top speed, full throttle, engine trimmed out? Unless you can tell us that, no-one can tell you anything much more to help you solve the sluggish acceleration issue you have reported.

Hope that helps explain why this info is so important.

[shakey55]

Sorry gents. Out on the river today I got the chance to open it up, and it did get up to 5000 plus revs. I have not installed my GPS as yet so speed gauge from those water pressure speedo's got up to 40+ mph.

I did find the boat a lot better yesterday playing around with the trim. I was a lot happier after yesterday's trials than my first day out with it.

I think my real original concern was that I was comparing apples with oranges. I mean my old early 80's v-sea with a Johnson 60hp (65kph) to this, which is obviously bigger and heavier, etc.

As I have stated, yesterday's performance was a lot better after playing around with the trim. So from the figures above I know believe the old girl goes ok and does what it is supposed to be doing.

Sea trials next week, but not expecting any changes.

Thank you all very much for you knowledgeable answers and advice.


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[Noelm]

Don't get hung up on the speed, disconnect your speedo, because it's all your focused on, you say RPM was 5000 plus... Plus what? RPM is important to solve your problem, not too sure about the leak down tests and rebuilds business! just tell us your max RPM!

[Noelm]

Hi Shakey , you have good top end speed as expected with a 115 hp motor on a 5m boat. Your motor is 15 years old , if it hasnt been rebuilt already , I recon a leak down test may reveal your slow to get her up on the plan issue. I'd suggest you get this test rechecked asap .If you have ring ,valve or cylinder damage it'll be cheaper to address it now . ps you can have good compression in all cylinders , but if they have minor leakage this usually starts to show as difficulty getting up on the plane with load.
Regards
Beastmaster
You do realise he has a 2 stroke?

[Fed]

Highly raked & vented prop could be giving you a weird feeling getting up on the plane, lots of revs & getting no where until it hooks up.

The numbers may well look OK at WOT but it could suffer getting getting up under slow acceleration.

Put your feelers out for a stock OMC 17" or 19" to borrow for a test.

I have a stock OMC 17" ss you can try but mine is a small gear case & I think yours would be a the larger one. Have to run the numbers if you want to give it a go.

You down around Campbelltown?

[shakey55]

Highly raked & vented prop could be giving you a weird feeling getting up on the plane, lots of revs & getting no where until it hooks up.

The numbers may well look OK at WOT but it could suffer getting getting up under slow acceleration.

Put your feelers out for a stock OMC 17" or 19" to borrow for a test.

I have a stock OMC 17" ss you can try but mine is a small gear case & I think yours would be a the larger one. Have to run the numbers if you want to give it a go.

You down around Campbelltown?

Yes in the Camden area


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[shakey55]

Highly raked & vented prop could be giving you a weird feeling getting up on the plane, lots of revs & getting no where until it hooks up.

The numbers may well look OK at WOT but it could suffer getting getting up under slow acceleration.

Put your feelers out for a stock OMC 17" or 19" to borrow for a test.

I have a stock OMC 17" ss you can try but mine is a small gear case & I think yours would be a the larger one. Have to run the numbers if you want to give it a go.

You down around Campbelltown?

You mention trying a different prop. Are you saying my prop is not the correct one.

How do ou measure a prop ?


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[Noelm]

Size is usually stamped on the prop, something like 17X21, last call for your max RPM.......

[Fed]

I don't know what your prop is but it doesn't look like a standard OMC one.

It should have some numbers stamped on it but you may have to remove it so see them, needs removing anyway to grease the prop shaft if you haven't already done it.

[scottar]

You mention trying a different prop. Are you saying my prop is not the correct one.

How do ou measure a prop ?


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Not necessarily "not the correct one" but different props do different jobs and can quite drastically affect the performance characteristics of the boat. You may find that a different prop provides a much better driving experience in relation to your loading and expectations. It is not uncommon for owners to have multiple propellers if their vessel is used for different purposes or has a marked difference in loading conditions at different times.

[scottar]

I don't know what your prop is but it doesn't look like a standard OMC one.

It should have some numbers stamped on it but you may have to remove it so see them, needs removing anyway to grease the prop shaft if you haven't already done it.

Think you are on the money Fed - I've never seen an OMC/BRP prop that looks anything like it. If you can find a part number stamped into it Shakey do a google search on it. Closest I could see in appearance was a Turbo Propellers product but there are so many aftermarket manufacturers

[fishing111]

When you had the full load with 2 down the back are you sure you had motor fully trimmed in on take off? Sometimes with guests on board and associated conversations, well it happens. Horses before zebras, sorry if mentioned.

[Moonlighter]

You dont measure your prop. You test it at full throttle, average load on the boat, trimmed out so the boat goes as fast as it can, and record the max rpm you achieve. If your engine's max rpm range is say 5000-5500, and you can get say 5300rpm, then the prop is OK. But if you cant get to 5000rpm, then the prop has too much pitch (angle in the blades) and you need to change it for one with less.

That is how, in simplified terms, you know if you've got a suitable prop for your boat/motor combination. Again, it is why you need to know the exact rpm yor engine is achieving at full throttle, as described above.

Most props are stamped with their size. Sometimes on the blades, but more commonly on the hub, either on the outside where you can see if, or, on the inside which means you have to gake the prop off and look on the inside part of the hub. The hub can be dirty so you will likely have to clean it up to see the numbers.

Prop sizes are usually stated as something like "13 x 17". In this example, the 13 is the diameter of the prop, and the 17 is the pitch. Both are measured in inches. There might also be some other numbers or letters, these can tell you the model of the prop. But the 13 x 17 is the key information you need.

Pitch is the theoretical distance forward the prop would move in one full turn, if it didnt slip in the water as it pushed the boat forward. So, you can appreciate that the greater the angle of the blades, the greater the distance that the boat would move forward, in theory.

A rough rule of thumb is that every inch of pitch change equates to 150-200rpm.

So, an example might be that your engine reaches 5000rpm but you want it to reach closer to its max rpm of 5500. Say you currently have a 13 x 21 prop. What would you need to do?

Answer: You want to get less pitch in your prop. If you drop 2 inches pitch and get a 13 x 19" prop, of the same make and model, you should get between 2 x 150 or 2 x 200rpm extra revs, so between 300 and 400 extra rpm. Which should get you within a acceptable range to your target of 5500rpm.

Props of the same make and model commonly come in 2" intervals. So in the example above, the next size down is probably going to be a 13 x 17. Which would have 4" less pitch than the original 21". So it would give you between 600 and 800rpm more. Which would likely put you over the engine's max recommended revs of 5500rpm. So, in this example, the 19" would be a better choice.

[Ocean_Spirit]

Hi, the prop looks like the original V4 OMC Raker with vent hole behind the blade. They are a performance propeller and are designed to "go fast", not so much for slow speed planning and acceleration.

They also don't offer much in the way of stern lift. They were designed for the go fast bass boats. Change it out for a SST or Viper.!Could also be a dodgy hub creating extra slip.

In terms of the engine, who knows if it was the original on that hull. It wasn't factory fitted. However, the height where it is mounted is stock standard for the 5.0 hull.

Try a new 17p" SST 3 blade prop before speculating about engine problems (that little V4 is a tough and reliable engine) and it'll be a whole new ball game I bet with a good prop.

[scottar]

Spot on Ocean Spirit - learn something every day. The Turbo Props one I found was apparently flopped off the original Raker with some further research.

[Chimo]

I have two of the same breed of Rakers on my 115 two stroke OMCs ex Seafarer at Mermaid Beach.

They do seem to be quite happy with the motors lifted well up on the transom and seem content with their tips piercing the surface at high speed. I lifted the motors one hole higher after I got the boat and I remember talking to Lindsay about it at the time.

The motor spacer on the transom appears to be the extra thick version to allow the motor to be lifted past the the transom lip. Again very similar treatment on my two 3 blade 13.5 by X units.

The fitment of foils on the motors and tabs on the hull combine to give appreciated lift a lower speeds and with the motor set high on the transom and then trimmed back for fast running the foils are clear of the water surface causing no drag while the tabs continue to provide lift and leveling.

Cheers
Chimo

[shakey55]

Thanks fellas. I love this forum always someone with knowledge and willingness to help.

The prop on my boat is a:


# 394758 13.5" x 18" Stainless Steel RAKER. For Carbureted and Direct Injection E-Tec Models 75-140 hp, OMC Cobra and OMC Stern Drive Runabouts, Bass Boat and High Performance Boats.



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[shakey55]

Hi, the prop looks like the original V4 OMC Raker with vent hole behind the blade. They are a performance propeller and are designed to "go fast", not so much for slow speed planning and acceleration.

They also don't offer much in the way of stern lift. They were designed for the go fast bass boats. Change it out for a SST or Viper.!Could also be a dodgy hub creating extra slip.

In terms of the engine, who knows if it was the original on that hull. It wasn't factory fitted. However, the height where it is mounted is stock standard for the 5.0 hull.

Try a new 17p" SST 3 blade prop before speculating about engine problems (that little V4 is a tough and reliable engine) and it'll be a whole new ball game I bet with a good prop.

Thanks Ocean_Spirit, I'll look into 17p SST prop


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[shakey55]

I have two of the same breed of Rakers on my 115 two stroke OMCs ex Seafarer at Mermaid Beach.

They do seem to be quite happy with the motors lifted well up on the transom and seem content with their tips piercing the surface at high speed. I lifted the motors one hole higher after I got the boat and I remember talking to Lindsay about it at the time.

The motor spacer on the transom appears to be the extra thick version to allow the motor to be lifted past the the transom lip. Again very similar treatment on my two 3 blade 13.5 by X units.

The fitment of foils on the motors and tabs on the hull combine to give appreciated lift a lower speeds and with the motor set high on the transom and then trimmed back for fast running the foils are clear of the water surface causing no drag while the tabs continue to provide lift and leveling.

Cheers
Chimo

Thanks Chimo. Any suggestions on type/brand of fouls that would suit my setup.



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[Chimo]

111903
These are what I have fitted to mine with the two Rakers. My motor height could be were yours was before someone lowered the motor, it looks like one hole. I would probably go up again. Just make sure you tilt the motor down close to the transom when you take of and trim it out as you get going. Also as has been suggested try moving weight forward as you take off. With trim tabs and foils on the motor I find I dont need to trim the motors in towards the transom as much because of the lift from the foils and tabs.

I know there is lift from both as I fitted the foils and then some time later put the Lenco tabs on.

Have fun with it bearing mind that the Raker used to be an $800 or so prop. No idea what the going price of props is now but mine are some years older than your new set up.

[Noelm]

Tap, tap, tap, is this working?or is your max RPM is some sort of secret? You might be wasting money buying foils, props and every other band aid fix

[shakey55]

111903
These are what I have fitted to mine with the two Rakers. My motor height could be were yours was before someone lowered the motor, it looks like one hole. I would probably go up again. Just make sure you tilt the motor down close to the transom when you take of and trim it out as you get going. Also as has been suggested try moving weight forward as you take off. With trim tabs and foils on the motor I find I dont need to trim the motors in towards the transom as much because of the lift from the foils and tabs.

I know there is lift from both as I fitted the foils and then some time later put the Lenco tabs on.

Have fun with it bearing mind that the Raker used to be an $800 or so prop. No idea what the going price of props is now but mine are some years older than your new set up.

What boat is that and what size motors. Just curious.

They look like the foils I had on my old v-sea that had only a 60hp Johnson. They seemed to do the trick.

I mentioned earlier that I was much happier yesterday after some decent trials on the Shoalhaven River at Nowra (NSW).

I think my biggest problem was that I was trying to drive this boat as if it was my old one. This is obviously a different setup and playing around with the trim, I worked a lot of things out.

The prop I have on appears to be one designed for speed. I'll put on some foils and see what they do.

Thanks 'shakey'


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[shakey55]

Tap, tap, tap, is this working?or is your max RPM is some sort of secret? You might be wasting money buying foils, props and every other band aid fix

I'll take more notice next time out, but from memory the revs got around 5400, but will take more notice next time on water.


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[Chimo]

To answer your question the motors are 115HP OMC two strokes older than yours on a Seafarer Vagabond that with motor and house batteries as well as oil storages is reasonably tail plump hence the benefit from Lenco tabs (only 9 by 9 inch) and the foils on each motor. I think you indicated several pages back that you were getting around 5000 rpm and if you now say your up to 5400 then from what I remember your in the ball park for 115 HP 2 stroke OMC as far as RPM.

Others will no doubt have some more info on this.

Cheers
Chimo

[Ocean_Spirit]

Can I suggest trying a 17p" SST or Viper in the first instance before fitting foils, lifting engine height, etc. 5,400RPM loaded is fine, fit the 17p" and you'll find some more RPM and improve your economy and low down performance.

The 6.2 Vagabond / Venom running twin 115's handled the Rakers fine. I have run them on Victory's. Not well suited to the 5.0 hull. The Vagabond needs no power to plane itself and 8 cylinders of 2 stroke (lightweight) grunt did it easily. With the 5.0, you want some bite down low. You'll be happy with the results.

[shakey55]

Can I suggest trying a 17p" SST or Viper in the first instance before fitting foils, lifting engine height, etc. 5,400RPM loaded is fine, fit the 17p" and you'll find some more RPM and improve your economy and low down performance.

The 6.2 Vagabond / Venom running twin 115's handled the Rakers fine. I have run them on Victory's. Not well suited to the 5.0 hull. The Vagabond needs no power to plane itself and 8 cylinders of 2 stroke (lightweight) grunt did it easily. With the 5.0, you want some bite down low. You'll be happy with the results.

Thanks, I shall look into it


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[Chimo]

What Ocean_Spirit said as he has more experience with the range of Seafarers and trying the suggested prop would be the easiest if you can beg borrow or steal one.

Be interesting to hear how you get on after the trial.

Cheers
Chimo

[shakey55]

Well gents I know it has been a while. Away working and a few other things.

Today I finally got the boat on the water to do some more trials.

Put the boat into Port Hacking River and had some good conditions.

Boat nearly bare, me a mate and about 100 litres of fuel underfloor.

Since I last spoke I have had new electronics which helped with speed.

Opened her right up and played with trim. Revs got up to 5350 and the GPS showed a speed of 66kph.

I'm no expert but I was pretty happy with the way she performed today.

I still am using the Raker prop

Thoughts ?


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