What market should i aim for 225hp 2 stroke

[gazza2006au]

left a deposit on a older model 225hp johnson last night i will be picking it up today, its XL shaft however owner said he'll chuck in a complete blown and less few part spare 225hp for $100 extra which is long shaft

ive never had a motor of this size what market would appeal to something this big? should i stay with XL shaft or buy the second motor and change to long shaft?

i may have to look interstate to sell it but this things gotta weigh 200kg?

any idea's guys

[Noelm]

Ski boat guys?

[gazza2006au]

Are ski boats XL or L shaft Noel?

[Spaniard_King]

most boats will want a 25" leg for a 225.. what year 225/model ??

[gazza2006au]

SK its showing as a 1987 model i first thought it looked like a newer model

[gazza2006au]

here's a pic it's a nice clean engine other than some anti foul on the leg and minor paint peeling from i assume where it was moored

[gazza2006au]

Picked it up hopefully have it on a stand within the next few days if it doesnt get knocked off from my front yard

i bought it without hearing it run but its not seized the seller works for BRP and i think he grabs all the trade in's so he would have bought it for next to nicks he did mention it does run just needs a service something their company wasnt interested in doing and reviving this old girl

i didnt grab the second motor and lucky i didnt my trailer was creaking and cracking the whole way home, this motor is bloody heavy

have a question do u need to synchronize the carbies on these old motors? or is that only on 4 strokes?..

[The Woo]

Did you buy this to use or flip for a profit?

[gazza2006au]

Did you buy this to use or flip for a profit? I will be selling it but first ill be working on it to get it in good running order

[BM]

Gazza you may have caught yourself again. Around that era OMC had some big trouble with their "lost foam" casting method. It was the 225's that really suffered. You need to take the heads off and check to see if the cylinder castings are peeling away from the bores. It's essentially an unrepairable fix unless you want to install stepped liners which are quite expensive. You may be lucky and have gotten away with it though.

As Gary said leave as an XL as it's more of an Edencraft type boat engine size although being an older 2 stroke the market will be a bit limited.

All carb engines need syncing but it's pretty easy to do.

[Noelm]

I don't want to sound negative, because anyone who is prepared to have a go at making a few dollars deserves a chance, BUT.... I am always very wary of anything the seller says "only needs a service/tune up" but then, maybe that's just me.

[gazza2006au]

BM thanks for the reply mate :) im searching high and low and cant find any info about the block peeling away from the cylinders? in saying that i did come across one case the other day i remember seeing a 225 where there was a small gap between the cylinder sleeve and aluminium wall but i cant find it now

what i'll do is run a compression test first and report what i see so far the heads have small amounts of caked up salt around the seal so the guy i bought it from didnt remove the heads so heres hopping its ok

Noel i think the bloke was the BRP sales guy not there mechanic and the engine is just not worthy the labour to work on at what a shop charges ($100 per hour), for me i try to do any repairs quickly but thoroughly, it looks like the last guy attempted to check out the engine the small electric start fuse is missing but doing a google search shows there were faulty ignition key switches for this model that burnt out the fuse this would explain why the small fuse wire was D/C from the solenoid in an attempt to stop it blowing

[BM]

Back in the day OMC for a period of time were replacing powerheads (a friend of mine was an OMC dealer). Heads must come off mate to properly check. It will give you a good look inside also. As the casting separated from the cylinder liner the head gasket loses its ability to seal properly and the engine sucks in water from the cooling system.

[gazza2006au]

The old girl is up and off the trailer my car stand idea didn't work im going to fabricate a steel stand tomorrow

i pulled all 6 plugs and two looked like this hard to tell if its the rings or pitted cylinder head shavings so after i run a compression test i plan on removing the heads

[Noelm]

Bit hard to see anything wrong with the plug, just looks oily?

[gazza2006au]

Just ran the compression test

left cylinders top to bottom
85
85
80
right cylinder top to bottom
77
77
65

do u guys see a pattern here? i used my car battery which isnt deep cycle so im a little unsure if i have accurate numbers or my battery was draining

Noel nice big flat piece of metal on the spark plug it could have been where i removed the spark plugs with a shifter so ill see once i get the head off

[BM]

Heads off and let the story unfold! Lower compression is not uncommon in the higher hp engines.

[BM]

Comps are low. But consistent. Heads off!

[gazza2006au]

Your correct BM i have read around 85-90PSI is where compression is when new on these large motors i tried taking both heads off today but unlucky i ran into 8 stubborn seized bolts out of the 40 head bolts and the bolts that are seized are No:1-4 on both heads

also snapped 3 of the starboard thermostat housing bolts they didn't stand a chance

im trying to work out which electronics i need to remove from the block before i can use the TIG welder to heat those head bolts, do u think i could getaway with just unbolting every earth i see bolted to the block and taping the connector than using the welder?

have to give these guys a plug i picked up one of there lifting rings today the welds arnt perfect but sure did the job and saved me a heap of money buying one from Evinrude

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Outboard-Engine-Lifting-Hook-For-Johnson-Evinrude-40-235-HP-/121755651804?

[BM]

The heads are only held on by by about 10 bolts each head. The water jacket covers and thermo housings don't need to be undone (although a good idea). Usual procedure for seized bolts is an oxy torch.

[scottar]

I would have thought that the market place for old tech two strokes in that sort of size would be almost non existent - certainly not like portables or smaller engines. Most people considering a repower in that size would be going new tech for the fuel savings. You may manage to find someone who simply can't afford a new or newish motor but I would certainly be wary of investing any sort of dollars in it.

[gazza2006au]

The heads are only held on by by about 10 bolts each head. The water jacket covers and thermo housings don't need to be undone (although a good idea). Usual procedure for seized bolts is an oxy torch.[/QUOT I thought the same thing mate i was putting light pressure on the cylinder heads last night to see if they'd come loose but i just looked up the microfiche and there is no water jacket its simply the heads bolted directly to the block so those bolts must be undone, i was tempted to go buy a oxy/LPG set but they arnt cheap it would sure help out right now but im going to have to rely on the TIG welder for now the TIG welder has worked brilliantly for me in the past on a 8hp yamaha i had i think around 10 snapped powerhead and exhaust manifold bolts and i removed everyone

[QUOTE]I would have thought that the market place for old tech two strokes in that sort of size would be almost non existent - certainly not like portables or smaller engines. Most people considering a repower in that size would be going new tech for the fuel savings. You may manage to find someone who simply can't afford a new or newish motor but I would certainly be wary of investing any sort of dollars in it. i haven't invested a whole lot of money into this motor it was only several hundred bucks so i dont plan on going over board with a full overhaul as i have no use for a motor of this size, worse case if it needs to be re-ringed and honed ill do that but anymore i will just tear it apart and sell it in parts to recoup what it owes me

i was looking on gumtree classifieds and there are only a couple 225hp in nsw one is $4000 :o if this motor checks out i could sell for less than half of that and still make a tidy profit

[PROS]

gazza, good luck with your project, hopefully you will achieve your profit expectations.

With the way you describe your hourly rate working on these outboards and handiness with the tools, I always have work for you in Brisbane if needed in motor trade.

Good luck

Max

[gazza2006au]

Thanks PROS, im trying to get my stuff together to open a small part time Outboard Business i haven't yet settled on what the market wants as of yet other than 4 stroke outboards so i will eventually work it out and hopefully it all pans out

that is my life goal/achievement to reach anyway :)

[gazza2006au]

I've been struggling to get the starboard head of so far have all 19 bolts removed the heat from the TIG sure helped but one last bolt was being a real pain in the ass well actually i cranked up the amps and just hovered over the head of one bolt and eventually screwing up the bolt head so i spent a majority of the time trying to use the TIG welder and i suck at vertical welding so i pulled out the mig just before dark built up the weld around 10mm in a lump than welded on a large bolt than i was lucky enough to have access to most of the back of the nut which i welded too than the bolt sheered clean off at the surface

of all the outboards ive worked on these bolts take the cake i have never seen so much dusty salt built up before

head wont budge with that last clean snapped bolt either all the salt is around the bolt's shaft (the smooth bit)

most defiantly need an Oxy although have never used one or know how to use it

the port side will be the same 16 bolts came loose, 1 snapped 3 remaining but before i go to the trouble of removing that side i'll inspect the starboard cylinders first in case if the block is rubbish

Max my hourly rate will be 20-25 p/h plus all parts and consumables i think thats paying my self fair and if a engine comes out ridiculously cheap once rebuilt i'll make a few extra pennies and put the extra towards the business

overhead's are about $250-$300 a month thats rent, electricity,phone plus if i flog stuff off on ebay that'll be extra but gumtree is free and so are facebook for sale sections the best advertisement is word of mouth, if u sell a motor to moe and its still running in 12 months time joe, moes mate will come knocking ;) and so will his wife holding the cheque book ahaha

[stevej]

I find it hard to understand why a brp rep would be trading engines in
they don't except for their sponsored engines and they send them to a dealer to be fitted.

[Spaniard_King]

What warranty on a rebuilt engine do you give?

[gazza2006au]

What warranty on a rebuilt engine do you give? By law in NSW a business must give 90 days warranty and i would think about giving 6 months if i got a decent dollar, but if shit hit the fan and a motor was returned i would have to pay a qualified mechanic to tear it apart and give me a report on what caused it just to cover my ass if it was deliberately blown up etc.. i wouldn't have a problem if it was due to workmanship giving a full refund or repairing it at my cost

[Spaniard_King]

So if it leaned out a cylinder and melted a piston (quite common) your going to cover it?? You need to get good coin for it then to cover the odd hiccup.

[gazza2006au]

So if it leaned out a cylinder and melted a piston (quite common) your going to cover it?? You need to get good coin for it then to cover the odd hiccup. I will be disconnecting all VRO's on johno's and rudes that i sell they will be sold as pre mix engines, if a customer was to run a lean mixture or shit fuel and cause the melted piston a qualified mechanic will be able to report this on disassembling the motor i would pass on any cost to the customer if he or she is in the wrong

if say i only installed 29 of 30 needle bearings in the top end and it was my mistake i will take all responsibilities for my workmanship

i would really dislike for a customer to run a motor into the ground than try claim it under warranty for instance i do a fresh rebuild and give the buyer clear instructions on the running in procedure and they clearly don't follow it resulting in a blown motor

pictures will be taking throughout the whole process of everything external and internal plus dated of each motor, im not saying customers will be out to get me i will do my best to give them quality service but i dont want to be hung out on the clothes line either

[BM]

Gazza, dont do it. So many reasons to say don't do it but I think don't do it is the easiest approach. I admire your desire and interest but I think your business model is seriously flawed.

[gazza2006au]

What are some possibilities that could go wrong BM?

[scottar]

"I would really dislike for a customer to run a motor into the ground than try claim it under warranty for instance i do a fresh rebuild and give the buyer clear instructions on the running in procedure and they clearly don't follow it resulting in a blown motor"

There's one right there Gazza. Don't think it won't happen because it will. I have a mate that owned a mechanical work shop specialising in gearbox rebuilds. All boxes left the premises with large labels firmly attached, clearly stating the box needed to be filled with the necessary lubricant prior to operation. On more than one occasion he has had stand up barney's with punters that ran boxes dry - they send them back simply saying it's not right but it's glaringly obvious when they are stripped a second time. He has also had to waste time and money preparing small claims tribunal defences only to have claimants (who were very obviously in the wrong) not even bother to show up when push came to shove. There are a lot of people in this world who have quite ridiculous expectations as to the sort of abuse they should be able to dish out to equipment and have it not fail, who then expect someone else to cop the cost of sorting out their incompetence. Have a go by all means but I would be keeping the sales as "personal second hand" - buyer beware.

[The Woo]

The reality is Gaz that you're flying on a wing and a prayer. I'm not trying to discourage as I like a "go getter" but there are some truths that need to be aired.

Sure it's easy enough to "fully rebuild" an engine but what you cannot test is the engines under load, and therefore you don't actually know if they're fit for duty. You can't possibly know.

Lost count of how many times I've seen guys rebuild their engine after a melted piston or whatever, only for them not to find the route cause of the issue and it simply happens again.
How do you safeguard against that? You might get them idling on a stand, but they don't break at idle. They break when the load is high, and selling anything like this with an implied warranty is fraught with danger.

I'd slip it into the ute and visit the scrapper.

[stevej]

what's a 28 year old 225 engine that's had antifouled and been on a moored boat worth ?
$800-$1000 in running order with the vro still working id say

the market for it basically nothing apart from ski boats who want mercs
I had a 225 black max used insane amounts of fuel and full tit

[Spaniard_King]

what's a 28 year old 225 engine that's had antifouled and been on a moored boat worth ?
$800-$1000 in running order with the vro still working id say

the market for it basically nothing apart from ski boats who want mercs
I had a 225 black max used insane amounts of fuel and full tit

$1.50 a kilo

[gazza2006au]

Guys im in it $500 so not a great deal to loose i can easily part it out and ship parts overseas, have u checked out the prices on used cranks and tilt and trim units? if not i suggest u do, this is the reason i scrapped one of my Honda 50hp projects the other day...

if the cylinders are ok im in 2 head gaskets, 2 heads machined, handful of head bolts

i can easily re-connect the VRO but that's playing rush and roulette

[stevej]

vro is not russian roulette
bad mechanics mis diagnosing vro issues are russian roulette

[gazza2006au]

spent a couple hours today on the motor all of $40 labour stillt rying to remove the head, the head is loose but it's pivoting on that one snapped bolt i alsogot out the furious LPG blow torch and heated up the head since i was going to have it shaved and it still wont budge

last option drill it out? the thread is loose just the shaft of the bolt is seized inside of the cylinder head


vro is not russian roulette
bad mechanics mis diagnosing vro issues are russian roulette

stevej from my understanding the VRO's either work or they dont there is no in between, if it's ran pre mix there is no oil lubricating problem unless its user error

some say when a VRO is going the engine smokes a lot but im selling this engine so i wont be able to judge if its fit for use or not and it has already been disconnected by the previous owner, a VRO kit i think was $700 from OZ which just isnt worthy of reconnecting

[stevej]

ok thought you were removing it

easy out ?

hows the boat build go was interested to see how it went, am banned from assraider so cant see any posts there

[gazza2006au]

im not at the point of using an easy out although i'd probably never use another one of those lol problem is the head bolt is stuck inside of the cylinder head and sheared off plus the thread is still screwed into the block but the thread turns freely (i can swing the cylinder head back and forth) ive tried using the head tabs it wont budge, im shit at drilling but i think that's the only option left

i uploaded a mates picture to that other site and i edited my mate face from the picture and one of the mod's gave me a warning for editing the picture so i told them to shove there membership, that Stu the owner had a laugh about it too ::) he must get a lot of joy from members unsubscribing from his site

[Gon Fishun]

Can you get a 2 legged gear puller in under the head.

[creat]

Why not set yourself up as a outboard wreckers, half the headache and twice the $$

[Fed]

Build a little dam around it & fill it up with Penetrene.

[The Woo]

Old OMC donks like this had just about the best quality bolts, the best quality alloy, and as such were probably the most resistant to corrosion to any of the brands at the time. For so many bolts to be stuck tells me she's not seen a lot of love.

As creat suggests above, maybe it's easier to become a dismantler?

Oh, and easy-outs don't work for shit. if the head is broken from the bolt its only corrosion/salt holding it there. So either work enough penetrating fluid in there and work it backward and forward until the head slips off or get enough space behind it to get a blade in there to cut the bolt. Don't damage the head or block.
Then you still need to get all the broken ones out, and that aint easy with this era OMC bolts that are hard as diamonds to drill, made further difficult because they're surrounded by soft alloy. You'll need oxy, and to get enough heat into it without turning the local area into molten bird shit you'll need to strip nearly the whole powerhead.
Gosh, I could think of easier ways to make a dollar.

[Noelm]

Outboard wrecking is pretty good money if you can get cheap motors, they are worth a lot more in bits than as a going concern (old motors I mean) and there is not a lot of warranty issues to worry about, the hardest part is getting to know every brand and HP so when people ring up, you know what fits what!

[gazza2006au]

Gon Fishun, there are 4 tabs along the sides of the head but i think a puller in this case( if i could get one on there some how) would destroy the heads

creat, Noelm, i have been buying blown up full,partly and fully disassembled motors usually the ones with everything internally exposed are being sold for good reason and that's because the owner has had it inspected, there the engines i buy to sell in parts

the ones i buy complete are usually good to rebuild but running a wreckers would be great idea after seeing the prices they like to charge for parts :o

Fed, good idea but this salt is so dense im not sure if it could penetrate it?

The Woo, yeah mate those bolts are though i drilled thru one of the bolts today i just cant get the hang of keeping the drill centered, today it took 3,5,8mm Cobolt drill bits to drill the bolts

BM got the head off today next to no corrosion well there is a little bit but nothing too concerning for this old of an engine and no cylinder sleeve peeling which was great to see

looking back to my compression test shows Starboard top and bottom cylinders slightly low on compression now u can see the head gasket was leaking (the black oil running from the top and bottom cylinders)

[BM]

The middle cylinder (head) in pic 1 looks as though the cylinder head is washed out? And the corresponding cylinder (if it is) looks in the pic a bit washed out (under the bits of crud that are sitting on top of the piston). Looks it may have been sucking a bit of water in that middle cylinder. So all 6 pots have no peeling? Good news and at least you can onsell confidently.

[gazza2006au]

Have had the motor on gumtree and ebay since posting this thread with only 2 inquires for spare parts so i spent an hour working on it today removing the two starboard snapped bolts

plan B is to get the other head off and measure both heads for flatness possibly get them shaved than order the gaskets and new bolts toss her back together and sell it on as a complete motor, i dont think i will be at a loss if the new head gaskets raise the compression

heres a short video if anyone else gets stuck with removing seized and or snapped outboard bolts any spatter just wiped out of the cylinders because they are oiled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASHyr6L64-Y

[BM]

Don't get the heads machined Gazza. With outboard heads you just need a flat surface like a flat metal bench or better still a thick piece of glass and a sheet of coarse sandpaper / emery cloth taped onto it. Work the heads until you see it's touched everywhere and you are good to go. Machining takes too much off and is not necessary.

[gazza2006au]

i just looked up the parts to repair this motor on a Aussie microfich and BRP want $151.98 for 8 head bolts HOLLY $*#&! head gaskets are cheap though at $58 each side

i think im going with stainless steel bolts from the bloke down the road tho...

[BM]

Check the BLA website for a Sierra aftermarket head gasket. Bolts, go to your local bolt bar.