Driveway issues

[PROS]

My driveway has uphill slope and parking the boat reverse is not an option.
At the end of the driveway is garage.

This leaves me with driving forward with car to the top of the driveway, unhooking trailer and reversing back the car from the side.
As a result there is 6-7mt gap between the garage and trailer/boat all the time.
Basically boat is at the halfway down the driveway.

How can I pull the boat forward so it is at the top of the driveway?

I have seen those fancy puller units on wheels but too expensive?

I was thinking to make a square hole just inside of the garage over the concrete, fabricate a removable square pole there and attach some type of winch to pull the boat forward.

Would this be the best way to solve this problem?
If so should I use boat winch/4WD winch/hoist type winch?
12v or 240v is easier/cheaper?

Boat and trailer package is about 1500kgs.

Max

[CaptynKorbz]

Can you put up some photos?....

[Homebrewpig]

http://www.optitec.com.au/mobile.html

[outta line]

whatever you do you have to work out a safe controlled way to lower the boat so you can hook back onto tow car as 1.5T down hill would be hard to stop ..
you dont necessarily need a winch just need a solid anchor/pulley point and use the weight of car and a rated tow rope to raise and lower boat into place...

[scottar]

What do you drive - can you get a towbar fitted to the front?

[outta line]

What do you drive - can you get a towbar fitted to the front?


iwas going to suggest that as i have one on my cruiser .. i read the post as he wants to get the boat as close to the top/garage as possible without leaving a car length in between ...

[gofishin]

iwas going to suggest that as i have one on my cruiser .. i read the post as he wants to get the boat as close to the top/garage as possible without leaving a car length in between ...

Yep, that's what I think the OP means too. Driveway goes uphill from the street, so backing up will mean the boat turns into a rainwater tank, so he drives in tow vehicle first. Up the top of the driveway is a shed and he wants to get the boat as close as possible to the shed (without leaving the car length in between).

Winch, manual if you want to keep the $'s down, otherwise 240V and just run a lead out. With that weight a normal 10A GPO should be fine.
Cheers
Brendon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lethal]

I was leaving too much rubber on the driveway putting the boat into the shed so I dynabolted a 12v winch to the garage floor. I reversed the boat as close as I could then hooked up the winch to the trailer and winched it tight, then unhooked it from the car and winched it into the shed. It was only winching in 800kg but it worked a treat.

[PROS]

Thanks for the feedback guys,

gofishin, great explanation mate, that's exactly the problem I have.

towbar at the front of the car is no good as the gap will be there still.

Those fancy pullers are too expensive to justify.


I was leaving too much rubber on the driveway putting the boat into the shed so I dynabolted a 12v winch to the garage floor. I reversed the boat as close as I could then hooked up the winch to the trailer and winched it tight, then unhooked it from the car and winched it into the shed. It was only winching in 800kg but it worked a treat.
Bolting winch to floor is a great idea.
I am assuming it is low enough that you don't hit it with your car.

My next issue is redundancy.
Winch cables snapped at me in the past at the boat ramp so I need to make sure if cable lets go or winch comes of the floor in worst case scenario boat will not fly down the driveway.

[bugsytwoshoes]

I had a very similar problem that I have solved by installing a front mount tow bar on my Hi Lux (I have a very steep gravel driveway that goes onto a narrow street) and as Lethal has done I bought a 4000lb winch off ebay ( I think the winch was for a quad bike ) it cost about $200 and works like a dream.

[Fed]

Are you sure you can't get the front up high enough, that would sure save a lot of problems. Must be a very steep driveway.
Second option for me would be a tarp.

Edit: I've seen boats on the street with their trailer coupling 6 feet off the ground.

[Triple]

My next issue is redundancy.
Winch cables snapped at me in the past at the boat ramp so I need to make sure if cable lets go or winch comes of the floor in worst case scenario boat will not fly down the driveway.

That would always be worrying me every time I winched it up... Sure this can't solve the problem? Cost of winch etc would go a long way towards a decent cover...

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109590&stc=1

[PROS]

Are you sure you can't get the front up high enough, that would sure save a lot of problems. Must be a very steep driveway.
Second option for me would be a tarp.

Edit: I've seen boats on the street with their trailer coupling 6 feet off the ground.

I tried that for a year.
Trailer is double axle but brakes are on the front wheels only.
As I lift the jockey wheel higher, less and less pressure applied to braked wheels, effectively making the handbrake useless at some point.

Fully extended jockey wheel wasn't enough so water doesn't get collected inside the boat.
Tried using a block under the jockey wheel fully extended to give more heigh, helped but still bit of water in boat.

One rainy night I was playing with this setup, lifted it bit more and the whole thing started to sliding forward down the driveway.
I used to anchor the trailer to the ground with 2 separate chain connections.
Broke the chains and all.
I was expecting the whole thing to fly down....
Luckily, immediately after sliding, block is stuck un the driveway and jockey jumped off, stopping the boat on h/brake.
Never parked backwards again after that.

I am putting a gable roof extending from the garage down so I can put the boat inside cover.
If I managed to pull the boat to garage up the top, roof will only need to be 6-7mts long.
Otherwise currently I need 15mt roof to cover the boat

[PROS]

That would always be worrying me every time I winched it up... Sure this can't solve the problem? Cost of winch etc would go a long way towards a decent cover...

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109562&stc=1

cant see your pic mate

[scottar]

Could always use Outta Line's option and simply duplicate for redundancy - 2 anchor points, 2 sheave blocks, 2 cables - making sure each assembly is capable/rated to do the job on it's own. You would have to try hard to break both at once and no electricity required. As an extra redundancy you will be sitting in the car below the boat on the driveway - perfect position to halt the boats progress downhill;D

[Fed]

How about a couple of lockable wheel chocks for the rear wheels then do the big lift at the front?
I wouldn't trust the handbrake anyway, some bored kid could release it just for fun.

[Gr0wler]

Without seeing pics it is very hard to fully understand your situation but from reading all the posts this is what I would do:
#1 Always look at the safety first as you would hate to injure or kill someone from your boat rolling down the drive.
If you can safely reverse your trailer up the driveway then that is always your best option as you have the vehicle securing the boat until you have done so by other means.
I would Install a couple of VERY strong mounting points preferably into concrete that you can use once reversed into position (if possible) to chain the trailer to with some rated chains (two of) like this http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109565&stc=1 and some rated hardware (shackles etc.) and a good rubber chock for each wheel like this http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109566&stc=1 or any one of these http://bit.ly/1FVgifT

Once secured you can then go ahead and unhitch from vehicle and be able to sleep at night knowing it's not going anywhere.
If your boat is still not covered in this position by your roof you say you are having installed I would just get a good cover made for the boat to keep the water out.

Just remember that easiest and cheapest is normally not the best and I would rather do something properly or don't do it at all ie sell the boat, as I do not want to live (in jail) with the thought that I had killed someone because I did something silly just to save some coin.

Just my two cents but I hope it helps you out in some way.

[Gr0wler]

Could someone please let me know if the pics in my post are visible ?

Cheers Shane.

[PROS]

How about a couple of lockable wheel chocks for the rear wheels then do the big lift at the front?
I wouldn't trust the handbrake anyway, some bored kid could release it just for fun.
I had 2 steel chocks on the front wheels when the trailer let go, tooths on chokes just kept taking chunks out of the driveway.

When I park currently with boat facing garage, as well as handbrake x4 chocks deployed

[PROS]

Without seeing pics it is very hard to fully understand your situation but from reading all the posts this is what I would do:
#1 Always look at the safety first as you would hate to injure or kill someone from your boat rolling down the drive.
If you can safely reverse your trailer up the driveway then that is always your best option as you have the vehicle securing the boat until you have done so by other means.
I would Install a couple of VERY strong mounting points preferably into concrete that you can use once reversed into position (if possible) to chain the trailer to with some rated chains (two of) like this http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109565&stc=1 and some rated hardware (shackles etc.) and a good rubber chock for each wheel like this http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109566&stc=1 or any one of these http://bit.ly/1FVgifT

Once secured you can then go ahead and unhitch from vehicle and be able to sleep at night knowing it's not going anywhere.
If your boat is still not covered in this position by your roof you say you are having installed I would just get a good cover made for the boat to keep the water out.

Just remember that easiest and cheapest is normally not the best and I would rather do something properly or don't do it at all ie sell the boat, as I do not want to live (in jail) with the thought that I had killed someone because I did something silly just to save some coin.

Just my two cents but I hope it helps you out in some way.

Photos not visible, but paring the boat backwards is not an option anyways mate.
I don't want to hurt myself or anyone or property damage, hence all the thinking and redundancy package.

[PROS]

whatever you do you have to work out a safe controlled way to lower the boat so you can hook back onto tow car as 1.5T down hill would be hard to stop ..
you dont necessarily need a winch just need a solid anchor/pulley point and use the weight of car and a rated tow rope to raise and lower boat into place...

Dual cable/pulley option or electric winch coupled with pulley as redundancy are definitely sound options.
Every component has to be rated min 2000kgs or more.

The other solution I was thinking to push the trailer uphill from the back of the trailer.
A component with tow ball has to be fabricated that can easily be attached to back of the trailer somehow.
I like this idea because no need for pulleys/winch/cables.
Car is pushing from the back so natural redundancy is there. Scottar you would like this one :)

[scottar]

That would work but in terms of ease of handling/storage for yourself the cables and sheave blocks would be lighter/easier. Add to the previous list a couple of rated recovery points if you want to attach the cables to the front of the vehicle so you see what's going on easier.

[PROS]

This the back of the trailer pic.

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109567&stc=1

x2 rectangular sections on outer sides are the main channel which would be the strongest and logical place to attach to.

x2 Square sections at the centre would be the second option as it is attached to couple of cross beams.

The other rectangular in between is just there to rollers, not strong enough.

New fabricated component can be attached to trailer with those solid rod & locking clip setup, just like attaching tow ball to a car.

Not sure if guiding the jockey wheel would be an issue, maybe to put something underneath so it can slide over concrete.

Any feedback on this setup?

[scottar]

So an "A frame trailer drawbar" that inserts into the two main rails and is held in place with pins drilled through the main rails???? Can't see why it wouldn't work but may introduce damage to the galvanising in the area of the trailer that needs it most. You would have to stay on top of rust prevention application.

[tjotter]

If you use a winch, winch height also a factor, if too high, the trailer nose may lift when being winched; if too low extra force being spent pulling trailer nose into the ground instead of along the ground.

I do something similar to Lethal in that I pull trailer up drive backwards. But I use a hand winch and it is a bugger as I am behind trailer winching and front of trailer is drifting off to one side. A Elec winch with remote would probably be better as could steer and winch at same time.

My winch sits on a block to give some height. To use, I shackle block to a heavy chain, and chain is dynabolted to floor. When not in use, just some chain on floor.

I found pulling trailer/boat up a slope a lot harder than pulling a floating boat up trailer rollers, got around by adding a snatch block.

If you think cable may break, 4WDers put a sack or similar over middle of wire [reduce whiplash]. I have an emergency strap connected in case something fails. As per Scottar, I also have car parked below trailer while winching, damage to car better than watching trailer/boat roll down drive etc.

[Still_Dreamin]

Can you drive the car into the garage with boat attached?
If so, drive car into garage. Get out disconnect and secure boat to your satisfaction. Use four of those wheel dolleys(one under each wheel) that they use to move v8 race cars around. Move car sideways remove dolleys and reverse down beside boat.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109581&stc=1http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109581&stc=1

[Flex]

I assume your not putting the boat actually in the garage?

is it possible for you to reverse the trailer all the way up the drive way. Then simply Jack the nose high? This is what I do.

i put a trolly Jack 2m back on the draw bar. Then two engine stands at each corner on the front of the trailer frame. This lifts the jocky wheel a foot or so in the air, but it's enough to drain water out.

takes 5 mins to hook the boat back on then. As your not winching a boat up and down.

[Fed]

Putting the chocks at the back wheels should stop them slipping.

[robothefisho]

If you have a yard to mow what about a ride on lawn mower/ small lawn tractor. Even if you don't have a yard atleast you could sell it on when you're finished with it. They're pretty cheap second hand and easy to use.

[Chimo]

Max

Not sure if you want the trailer backed up or front up to the garage door or if you want it off to one side so you can drive the car in and out until you want to hitch the boat up and go. At the end of the day though it doesn't matter.

If it was not possible to back the boat up to the position you wanted it why not use the car to just pull it up to where you want it?

Locate the spot where you want the trailer to end up, locate a spot a couple of meters further up the hill, excavate at least a meter deep hole and concrete in a thick walled box tube. If this is not in the way and does not stop you getting into the garage make the length a couple of meters above the ground surface. If it is in the way slide another smaller box tub into the concreted in piece. Secure with chain and a rated "d" a pulley block that will accept suitable wire cable or say 12 mm suitable rope.
Position the trailer as far up the drive / hill so that its lined up with the end position, chock it, unhitch off the car, and attach the end of the wire / rope to the "a" frame or similar point at the rear of the trailer ( and length of chain from one side to the other with a "d" in the centre position to hitch onto would also probably work OK) and pass the rope / wire under the trailer and attach the other end to a suitable tow point on the car. The ball may be OK as your not snatching the trailer. (never attach a snatch strap to a tow ball and these become killers when they break due to shock loads). Probably wouldn't hurt to locate the wire / rope at the front of the trailer by use of the safety chain and "d" to ensure the trailer moves up in a straight line as you slowly drive forward and pull the trailer up to where you want it. Have someone tell you when to stop as the trailer gets to its required location. Mark on the ground a sighting spot so you know when to stop in future when you do it by yourself. Use the post and other chain to lock the trailer in its parked spot, back up, unhitch and store the parking tools. QED.

Cheers
Chimo

Jack the front up as mentioned above to drain until you lower it to hitch up and drive out.

[PROS]

Many thanks for all your feedback guys.

I am visiting a metal fabricator this afternoon to discuss about A frame to back of the trailer to push it uphill.

Also, builder is coming this weekend to talk about roof extension to garage.
I will talk to him about the anchor points/winch to garage floor.

Will keep you updated.

Max The Turk

[PixieAU]

How do you keep the jockey wheel off the ground so as to steer?

Otherwise i could see it going all over the place

Or will the a-frame somehow keep the coupling up by itself?

[PROS]

How do you keep the jockey wheel off the ground so as to steer?

Otherwise i could see it going all over the place

Or will the a-frame somehow keep the coupling up by itself?

A frame solution is to be attached to the back of the trailer. Trailer is to be pushed uphill from the back with the assistance of this A frame.
A frame will have a tow ball so I can attach to the back of the car.

Jockey at the front of the trailer wont be able to lifted off the ground, otherwise trailer will fall on to tow ball coupling.
Steering is not really needed, trailer just needs to be moved straight and forward.
You know how jockey wheels though, they have a mind of its own.
I can only assume as the trailer is pushed forward, jockey will want to move sideways.

I was thinking to put something under the jockey wheel, so it slides on driveway rather than rolling. This way car can steer the boat easier if needed.

It all really depends how the A-frame will attached to the back of the trailer.
Needs some pivoting up/down movement so I can attach to car tow ball.

[30ort06]

I have a simular situation where I have to reverse and park the boat up a hill. luckily its all concrete. what I do is lock off the brakes and reverse it up. i have installed a rubber speed hump on each side. I got them from a safety barrier place. I reverse it over that and it stops it rolling down the hill. to lift the front up I installed a second jockey wheel. so when the main one is all the way up , I then swivel the second down and jack it up further.
has worked well for me for about 5 years

[PROS]

I have a simular situation where I have to reverse and park the boat up a hill. luckily its all concrete. what I do is lock off the brakes and reverse it up. i have installed a rubber speed hump on each side. I got them from a safety barrier place. I reverse it over that and it stops it rolling down the hill. to lift the front up I installed a second jockey wheel. so when the main one is all the way up , I then swivel the second down and jack it up further.
has worked well for me for about 5 years
is your trailer single or double axle?

[scottar]

The other option if you are considering reversing up Pros, would be to restrain the trailer with an anchor point and a couple of chains as well as chocks prior to elevating the drawbar. won't go anywhere then and a bit less stuffing around perhaps. You will find your insurance company will want the thing chained and locked to a secure point anyway.

[Gr0wler]

Still don't understand why you can't reverse it or would want to go through so much trouble stuffing around having it facing forwards ? please explain why it can't be reversed !

[paullee]

Still don't understand why you can't reverse it or would want to go through so much trouble stuffing around having it facing forwards ? please explain why it can't be reversed !
Hi Growler I'm with you about why stuff around but i assume he doesn't want the boat filling up with rain water and not being able to drain thru the bungs. I assume with his plan of an a frame on the back of the trailer he has to go through all that in reverse just to hook the boat back up again? A few things come to mind as alternatives not mentioned already: Boat storage near ramp somewhere? Good quality cover and an auto bilge at front of boat somewhere? The speed hump and 2 jockey wheels sounds the go though. I will have the same problem in a month or so when we move so good topic.....

[Gr0wler]

Hi Growler I'm with you about why stuff around but i assume he doesn't want the boat filling up with rain water and not being able to drain thru the bungs. I assume with his plan of an a frame on the back of the trailer he has to go through all that in reverse just to hook the boat back up again? A few things come to mind as alternatives not mentioned already: Boat storage near ramp somewhere? Good quality cover and an auto bilge at front of boat somewhere? The speed hump and 2 jockey wheels sounds the go though. I will have the same problem in a month or so when we move so good topic.....
I agree totally and as i said before, if it's because of rain water then get a cover! A lot cheaper and easier than what he's talking about doing.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[PROS]

Still don't understand why you can't reverse it or would want to go through so much trouble stuffing around having it facing forwards ? please explain why it can't be reversed !

see below


I tried that for a year.
Trailer is double axle but brakes are on the front wheels only.
As I lift the jockey wheel higher, less and less weight applied to braked wheels , effectively making the handbrake useless at some point.
Fully extended jockey wheel wasn't enough so water doesn't get collected inside the boat.
Tried using a block under the jockey wheel fully extended to give more heigh, helped but still bit of water in boat.
One rainy night I was playing with this setup, lifted it bit more and the whole thing started to sliding forward down the driveway.
I used to anchor the trailer to the ground with 2 separate chain connections.
Broke the chains and all.
I was expecting the whole thing to fly down....
Luckily, immediately after sliding, block is stuck un the driveway and jockey jumped off, stopping the boat on h/brake.
Never parked backwards again after that.


I parked backwards already for a while and it nearly caused a major headache.
As jockey wheel is lifted, front wheels (which are braked) of the trailer is lifted up as well while rear unbraked wheels pushed down.
After a point, front wheels have next to no grip, effectively ending up with unbraked trailer.

During this accident, I had the trailer double chained to the ground. with x2 steel chocks as well, I cant remember if it was on front tyres or back. Chains were 1t rated and both broke. Need to up the chain for next time. Chocks didn't stop the boat, kept sliding. I assume it was on front wheels, maybe should be on the rear wheels to correct this.

I wasn't lifting the jockey stupid high, used to put a level on floor of he boat and stop when slight angle is achieved to stop water collecting inside the boat.

So this is the reason why I don't like the idea of parking the trailer backwards.
Seeing a trailer coming at you sliding down is not a view to forget. I was lucky than, don't really want to try my luck again.

Saying this, speed hump idea is very convincing, easiest solution of all which really tempts me.

Should the speed hump located under front wheels or rear?

[PROS]

I agree totally and as i said before, if it's because of rain water then get a cover! A lot cheaper and easier than what he's talking about doing.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
I own a motor/boat upholstery business and produce boat cover for living, most expensive solution of all, plus nightmare to deploy and secure over 6mt+ hardtop boat by yourself.

[ranmar850]

How attached is your wife to the house?;)

[GBC]

A 240v 600/1200 k.g. winch is $350.00 on ebay every day of the week. As opposed to your short towbar/long fulcrum/sloping block scenario which really is starting to sound like Richard Hammond on 'the science of stupid' - what could possibly go wrong?
The winch is going to have more control than anything. If you are worried about cables snapping then drag a sleeper behind the wheels while you are winching but just buy the correct tool for the job first up and there won't be a problem. Concrete 2 steel posts in 8 foot apart where the boat is to be parked, and slide a sleeper into position on edge in front of the wheels once it is winched up the hill, then let the trailer back down onto it - no chains, no worrying about winch cables snapping in the middle of the night. To lower the boat just take up the strain on the winch, pull out out the sleeper and lower it down the slope again. If you lived on a canal it would be called a ramp winch - this stuff has been nutted out before.

[Triple]

I own a motor/boat upholstery business and produce boat cover for living, most expensive solution of all, plus nightmare to deploy and secure over 6mt+ hardtop boat by yourself.

So the the easiest solution is reverse in with decent chocks on the rear wheels (on all four wheels is better I wouldn't rely on or even use the handbrake anyway due to possible failure or seizure if it's sitting awhile)
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109592&stc=1
lift the nose up and a waterproof cover and you own your own upholstery business and don't use one?
So you want to just stop rain water pooling in it, what about sun damage and a bit better security with a cover (out of sight out of mind), leaves, bird shite, neighbours cats etc etc?

What about a set of camping covers zipped to the hard top to stop the rain instead of a full cover?

dont know what your hardtop is like without pics but a cover like this would be easy to put on by yourself without trying to throw it over the whole boat.. And a not as much of a nightmare than to drive boat in forwards, chock boat, remove car, position car behind, fit other rear drawbar, remove chocks, push boat forward, park boat, remove car. then do it all in reverse when you want to take it out...

[PixieAU]

If you're only concerned with the jockey wheel lifting then can't you chain that to the ground before lifting it off the towball?

Wouldn't be alot of weight and a dyna bolt would suit

[wirlybird]

Bolt a coupling to the back of the trailer and get one of these push her up bobs your uncle
http://www.thedoghouse.net/RDH/stinger.jpg

[lembo]

mate I have the same problem, 18 foot sharkcat on trailer is way to heavy to pull around on jockey wheel.
and I also have front brakes only.
my soloution was 2 wheel chocks ($14 from autobarn) 1 pine sleeper 50mm thick cut into roughly 500mm lengths. and 2 cheapo car stand things. I back the boat right back as far as I can go. put 1 sleeper down infront each front wheel, then I drive forward just enough to get the front wheels only on the sleeper. chocks go infront of the back tyres. and brakes go on.
now at the front I wind up jockey wheel as far as it goes, put car stands under A frame, lower jockey wheel until stands take full weight. then put 2 sleepers under jockeywheel wind up as high as it goes again. then adjust car stands up to chassis then wind jockey wheel down a touch so weight is on stands.
now there is good weight on front axle for brakes to work, chock infront of back tyres for extra safety, and front is high enough for water to drain out back. and weight is on car stands not jockey wheel.
hope you understand. I can take a pic if you want.

[30ort06]

mine is a single axel, but would work the same for duel if it was just under the rear wheels as you say that is where the weight is as you jack it up. which ever way you go the double jockey wheel works great for me. its the second boat I have done this to. also the second one doesn't have a wheel on it, only a plate on the bottom which would also help stop it moving.

[RayLamp]

If the ship hasn't sailed on winching, you can get something like this
http://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/products/winches/domin8r-12-000lb-winch-with-dyneema-rope-first-50-orders-receive-a-free-engine-data-scan.html

It has dyneema rope so it won't recoil. You can then cover the rope with a dampener for more safety.
http://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/products/recovery-gear/winch-dampener.html

Just some thoughts :)

[lovejones]

Ive not read past 1st page, but i dont get the issue, why cant you reverse it up?

i have a steep inclined driveway and i get my boat reversed up, as for the jockey, i have spare wheels this sits on to give me the height, but also have a cover in case it rains on the rare occasion it does.

[scottar]

It's not a case of "can't" but more just want's to for his own reason's. His house, his boat - who are we to criticise.

[PROS]

carport over driveway is ordered which solves the water issue, also solves the need to excessively raise the jockey.
This was the last option as its the most costly but managed to get a deal with builder in exchange to leather upholstering his sports car.

Boat will be parked backwards.
Will get speed humps just in case over the rear axle also to support the handbrake.
+ x2 chocks

Thanks for all your feedback, had great informative ideas

back to fishing now