90 per cent drop in snapper stocks

[dec0guy]

http://www.boatsales.com.au/content/news/2014/scientists-suggest-snapper-decline-47580

Scientists suggest snapper decline



http://liveimages.motoring.com.au/boatsales/general/editorial/ge5501082292485294454.jpg?height=290&aspect=centered&width=440


Queensland uni report points to 90 per cent drop in stocks
Queensland scientists delving into newspaper archives have discovered that catch rates for Queensland’s pink snapper fishery have declined almost 90 per cent since the 19th Century.

Researchers from the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies at The University of Queensland and the Department of Agriculture Fisheries and Forestry examined thousands of newspaper articles dating back to 1870 to reveal the historic catch rates for the iconic Queensland fishery.

"We found that 19th Century recreational fishers would regularly catch hundreds of fish off the coast of Queensland, often in just a few hours of fishing," said ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies research fellow Dr Ruth Thurstan (pictured).

Combining historical data with statistical analyses allowed the researchers to calculate catch rates – the number of fish caught per hour of fishing per day – for nearly 300 fishing trips between 1871 and 1939.
The old news articles have given researchers unparalleled insights into the history of the Queensland snapper fishery.

"When we searched through these old newspapers we were amazed by the level of detail they provided," Dr Thurstan said.

"They give us a much better understanding of just how rich and productive this fishery used to be, as well as providing us with some fascinating insights into the development of offshore recreational fishing in Queensland."

"Crucially, these newspaper articles place the modern-day fishery into a longer-term perspective that isn’t available using only official records.

"This helps us understand the changes that have occurred in the fishery over time, and provides an additional piece of the puzzle for those managing this fishery today," she said.

Study co-author, ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies Professor John Pandolfi agreed.

"This is one of the most comprehensive perspectives on historical trends in catch rates for Australian fisheries ever compiled," he said.

"We expect similar trends to be uncovered for other Australian fisheries."

[Lucky_Phill]

I don't think an accurate corelation between " catch rates " and " fish stocks " can be made from newspaper clippings reporting catches.

So many variables to contend with that I find it impossible to use any critical data sets to make remotely accurate assumptions.

The way to understand or report fish stocks is to count fish. That is impossible, so scientists use other means to produce results.

Catch rates over the years depend on many factors.

time spent fishing " fishing effort "
numbers of anglers
numbers of fish
distance to travel / area specific
habitat degredation and loss
floods and droughts ( this has a large bearing on recruitment of many species )
the actual reporting / recording
fishery legislation changes ( bag limits / size limits )
recruitment loss through commercial by-catch
envorinmental changes ( water temps )
loss or change to spawning areas
recreational and commercial fishing technics ( sounders, gps )
fishers attitudes ( C & R groups )


I would like to see the data used by Dr Ruth Thurstan and Professor John Pandolfi to make their assumption that the Snapper stocks have dropped by 90%. Using catch rates could possibly produce a result for a drop in catch rates, but what specifically are the catch rates based on ? Numbers of anglers ? Numbers of fish ? Fishing effort ?


Certainly an individual caught more Snapper in say 1960 than today, but then, there were no bag limits, size limits and certainly the species were more prevelant close to shore due to a number of factors including far less habitat destruction. And if we go further back, we would find the more bio-mass close to shore as the industrial and agricultural runoff was far less.


I understand that Qld Fisheries scientists have been monitoring the stocks for some time and believe we are at a specific level now relating to virgin bio-mass. What the vrigin bio-mass was, is really an unknown factor making any results from calculations an assumption.


What you will find through this research is that the attributal economic input into the Snapper fishery is far greater now than in years gone by. Meaning the numbers of fishers that fish for Snapper put more money into the economy in their pursuit for these brutes than ever before. A fair, but not statically accurate “ assumption “ would be to say in the year 1900 it would cost the average recreational fisher a lot less than 1 penny ( 1 cent ) per kilogram ( lbs , back then ) for each fish to catch and considering that would possibly be about 0.01% of their weekly pay ( income ), whereas today it is closer to $80 / kilo and about 6% of weekly pay.


In yesteryear and the same as this very day, there will always be the fisher that can catch their bag limit on any given day and there are fishers that will struggle. Ask the struggling fisher and they will tell you “ stocks are down “, ask the other one and they'll tell you “ no problems “. We need to ask the Fish...... I don't speak fish... do you ?




LP

[Lucky_Phill]

I am not discounting the research done in this instance, only questioning the outcome and conclusions.



LP

[Noelm]

I think I mentioned this before, but a couple of years ago, the NSW Fisheries enlisted a heap of volunteers, and these were all local fishermen from fishing clubs and so on, they were at every ramp in the entire area, every day, for a year, collecting data on catch, they asked how long you had been out, how many fished, and measured each fish and counted them (of course) asked approximate cost to go out for the day, how far you had travelled to get to the ramp, and during the days fishing, some people told them to get lost, others tried to lie about how long they had fished and all sorts of stuff like that, how that data will be used in the future is anyone's guess, I answered as honestly as I could, don't know if they are up to no good, trying to see what is actually caught or what, but I guess it is better than a wild guess?

[Noelm]

OH, I might add, the same thing was done to the local pro fisherman too.

[alleycat]

I think the article is a pretty accurate, when you see the gear they used to catch all those fish years ago the number would only be far greater had modern gear been used, we only need to look at the reports on ausfish of snapper catches around 2006 - 2007, lots of reports from wello, mud and green of good snapper catches, at the time I was catching heaps myself, I know reports of other species are down as well but snapper reports are very rare these days...

[back2boats]

Comparing something at only 2 different points in time indicates a difference between them, but you can't know if it is a trend. It might have gone up, or down, or both, in between, maybe multiple times (i.e. it is cyclic).

That said, I think any fisherman is convinced that catches of fish, in general, are getting worse.

[Moonlighter]

Amother way to look at this is, for the first time, scientists are taking recreational fishers fishing reports as a useful source of real data that should be taken into acount when assessments and decisions about fishing rules are being made. Previously, they discounted the thoughts and views of experienced fishers almos completely.

I would also add the cautionary note others have already stated - you cant look at just one or two year's recent fishing experience and draw conclusions. Seasonal variations have a big impact. We know from research from reputable groups like Capreef (Infofish) that catch rates of reef fish increase exponentially almost immediately following big floods events, and then taper down over a couple of years and then bottom out in severe drought years. They proved the old saying "a drought on land results in a drought at sea" is true.

And that is just one factor.

I am convinced that snapper, and no doubt other species, have become far more aware of and sensitive to fishing techniques and specific lures.

Ive found that the soft plastics that we first used 15-20 years ago, like the Bass Assassins and Zooms, became less effective over time. Early days, we were getting smashed on those plastics by snapper in the Bay in locations where you struggled to nail a fish on bait. But after a couple of years, the fish wised up, and the hits slowed down.

Changed to new types and brands of plastics and bang! The fish were on again.

And despite all that, there is no doubt that there is a hell of a lot more pressure on the stock these days than there was back then. It must have had a big impact over the years. As has the greater affluence of society in general, with forums like this showing just how many people these days have offshore boats, plus thousands of $ in technology to get them onto the fish.

My Dad used to fish with his work's social fishing Club, they did charters on the old slow launches out of Brisbane river and Southport. Hardly ayone except the really well off had boats capable of offshore fishing, so thats how those guys fished. They would travel for 3 hours, anchor on known spots usng landmaks, burley for a couple of hours till they had the fish almost at the back of the boat, and then get stuck into them, using deck winches they had made themselves. That was just how it was done.

[Lordspink]

I agree with allycat, I know people don't like to hear it because it generally means reduced bad limits etc, and every one wants to blame commercial fisho's etc. and while Lucky Phil has plenty of good points, I think it actually works against the point he's trying to make. Its obvious I think, that year by year there are fewer fish in the sea, in fact no matter what we do to to try to stop having a detrimental effect will never be enough. Every year there are more people fishing commercial or rec, as well as more mouths to feed. While we as a species continue to expand, live longer, eat more all fish can do is what they have all ways done, they have no means to extend their chance of survival.

I sure as hell don't want rec fishing to be any more restricted than it is, god knows i struggle to get a feed as it is. But i'm not fool enough to think the rate we are taking fish out of the sea is sustainable.

[Lucky_Phill]

I think the article is a pretty accurate, when you see the gear they used to catch all those fish years ago the number would only be far greater had modern gear been used, we only need to look at the reports on ausfish of snapper catches around 2006 - 2007, lots of reports from wello, mud and green of good snapper catches, at the time I was catching heaps myself, I know reports of other species are down as well but snapper reports are very rare these days...

I doubt the type of gear they used years ago went into the data set for calculations, but maybe ? dunno. Also, just because you don't see reports of lots of Snapper, doesn't mean they are not being caught. Let's face it, as rec fishers we used to ( years ago ) post / display / take photos of our catch.... these days, with restrictions like bag and size limits, the " prize " is not as " newsworthy " ............... to some.


I agree with allycat, I know people don't like to hear it because it generally means reduced bad limits etc, and every one wants to blame commercial fisho's etc. and while Lucky Phil has plenty of good points, I think it actually works against the point he's trying to make. Its obvious I think, that year by year there are fewer fish in the sea, in fact no matter what we do to to try to stop having a detrimental effect will never be enough. Every year there are more people fishing commercial or rec, as well as more mouths to feed. While we as a species continue to expand, live longer, eat more all fish can do is what they have all ways done, they have no means to extend their chance of survival.

I sure as hell don't want rec fishing to be any more restricted than it is, god knows i struggle to get a feed as it is. But i'm not fool enough to think the rate we are taking fish out of the sea is sustainable.

We must also remember the world as a whole is upgrading and enhancing the aquaculture and fish farming , and not to forget the hugely and extensive investment in artificial reefs in Asian countries, that are filling the void by reduced wild caught fish. These types of fishery did not exist many years to compliment the wild fishery.

I don't think rec fishos blame the pro's for the many issues in the rec fishing industry, but certainly the inshore trawl netting is still a major problem to species nursery.

I don't have the answer, but I do know that non-discriminatory netting produces by-catch and a lot of by-catch becomes shark food and does no doubt have an impact on the bio-mass of particular species, such as Snapper.

The rec fishery is constantly changing in defination with the growing entities of C & R, spearos etc and due to this, the dynamics of the industry are changing as well, but it will take a generation to change the mindset and I believe we are halfway through one of these generational phases with the focus on bag limits, size limits and seasonal closures.

I have had a think about this and I find it almost impossible to draw parallels or conclusions as to the bio-mass / stocks of a species through recreational catches recorded in newspaper clipings.

Some time ago, I did a summary.... essay.... ??? and in brief it went like this:-

Many years ago with a limited rec fishing population X number of fishers caught Y numbers of fish at Z weights which = ABC tonnage.

These days with vastly increased number of rec fishers, the X number of fishers was 10 fold or more.... the Y numbers of fish were dramatically reduced ( bag limits ) and the Y weights of the fish were down ( less larger species and again, limits in this case of only 1 snapper over 70cms )........... but the strange thing was the actual ABC tonnage was the same...

In short, we are catching a lot more smaller fish in greater numbers, but still the same amount of weight.... thinking about this and considering the maximum size limit of 1 Snapper over 70cms, it is fair to suggest that more larger Snapper are remaining in the fishery, producing greater numbers of smaller fish which in turn has kept the " bio-mass "... in tonnage, in check. ??

The Qld fisheries scientists have over the years developed management strategies to hopefully produce a sustainable fishery and these management tools have included mostly, minimum size limits and bag limits. The offshoot of this is rec fishers are using more technical apparatus to find / target specific species and also are traveling further afield to target other species that our fishing friends from the 1900's could not even have envisaged... like the deep water Bar Cod, Trevalla and Harpooka for instance. Let's not forget, our friends from 1900 were fishing land based and close inshore.... these areas have been decimated by our need for housing and infrastructure, land clearing, run off and more.... again, there can be no correlation between Snapper fishing in 1900 and 2000........

LP

[NAGG]

Does anyone think that the catch rates today are better than they were 30 , 40 , 50 years ago ? .

Regardless of bag limits or slot limits - I cant ever remember anyone telling me of exceptional fishing.


I just got back from Lord Howe Island ..... 20 years after my last trip - even with the lack of commercial fishing - the fishing was not as good ....... regardless of landing well over 100 king fish ( the fish were smaller & not as numerous) - & these are fast growing fish.

Talk to anyone from Melb and ask about the snapper fishery ....... people just dont get dozens of fish anymore


Chris

[Noelm]

I think some of the 'old time" fisherman fished way offshore, but for basic fish (like Snapper) there was no need to travel, I remember stories from my father of deep fishing the shelf, they wold travel for hours (at 5 knots) to fish the shelf, the current would be too strong, so they would come back again, and fish for Snapper, I have a picture of the deck of the boat covered in big Snapper, I also have a picture at home of a group of fisherman (in suits and hats) at the entrance of the little creek near my place, with Jewfish 1.5 to 2m long piled on the sand, how they caught them is anyone's guess, one of the people in the photo is my Grandfather.

[GLXMAN]

Well, even just population will reduce numbers, pro or Recreational angler,

FWIW, we have a closed season and it is being considered being extended,
What didn't surprise me was that the pro's are now lobbying to get in before the opening day before the recreational guys have a chance
What could go wrong!

I know a pro that bought a house that was 800 meters from a well known squid location, others had to travel 20km to get there
He said, "squid don't live long so it will never be fished out"
You guessed it, 3 years, all gone as it was on a particular weed that the squid bred every year

used to be a favourite squid spot I've known for 40 years, rec anglers with the current bag limit worked OK

I spoke to a local pro I had known for many years, even fished alongside him,
I spoke to him about fish stocks,
He said that he was the stock of 3 generations of fisherman and his grandchildren would not be able to carry over the tradition as fish stocks were crashing due to over fishing, and that was from a lifetime pro!

[Horse]

I have read a number of the reports of trips from 100 years or so ago. The current fishery is a pale reminder of what it was back then. There are a number of reasons for this decline. Habitat degradation probably tops the list but commercial and recreational effort along with commercial bycatch are all chipping away at the current Snapper biomass. There is no single silver bullet that is going to fix the situation and all of the impacts have to be addressed to provide a sustainable fishery into the future. At this point in time I think recreational fishers are doing the hard yards with the tight bag limits and size restrictions and its time to look at the other areas of pressure being exerted on the fish population.
I don't think we will ever return to the days of taking an old timber cruiser (no electronics) to areas in the Rainbow Channel and fishing cord lines for a couple of hundred big Snapper. These days are long gone but there is still much to be done to protect our current stocks as well as our right to access them

[Noelm]

does anyone know the total commercial catch of Snapper in QLD for a year? and the methods used to catch them? no pro bashing or anything else, and would anyone have a reasonably accurate total catch by rec fishers? I do believe there are records for commercial catch rates going back quite some years, but it would be kind of interesting to see a year by year total.

[Lucky_Phill]

does anyone know the total commercial catch of Snapper in QLD for a year? and the methods used to catch them? no pro bashing or anything else, and would anyone have a reasonably accurate total catch by rec fishers? I do believe there are records for commercial catch rates going back quite some years, but it would be kind of interesting to see a year by year total.

There is a TAC / quota for Snapper in Qld.

It is public knowledge.

You'd have to search the FQ website for it.... I do have a report from 2011 here somewhere.

Methods do not include the dreaded " snapper traps " as in NSW.


cheers

this may interest you Noel... https://www.daff.qld.gov.au/fisheries/monitoring-our-fisheries/data-reports/sustainability-reporting/stock-assessment-reports/snapper-stock-assessment-2009

and in part reads.....
Annual landings
Queensland's total snapper landings between 1946 and 2007 were calculated from numerous sources including Queensland Fish Board information (1946-81), compulsory logbook returns for commercial fishers (1989-2007), compulsory logbooks for the charter sector (1993-2007) and recreational fishing landings via a number of different sources detailed below.



In 1994-95, recreational catch was estimated from a research project incorporating on-site boat ramp, access point and aerial survey techniques covering Gold Coast and Moreton Bay waters. RFish diary and phone surveys were used to estimate numbers and subsequently landing weights for 1997, 1999, 2002 and 2005. In 2000 catch estimates were obtained from the national recreational and Indigenous fishing survey which estimated participation rate and number of fish caught.


The Rfish survey is a telephone and diary based process of collecting information on participation rate and number of fish caught. The volunteers who provided diary information over a 12-month period are selected from a statistically stratified sample of Queenslanders, which allows the results to estimate statewide catch including the number of fish caught for key species. This approach has been reviewed externally and been shown to be statistically valid.


Missing year data were estimated from the Rfish estimates and number of registered recreational vessels.

[Lucky_Phill]

Here is the link with stats;;;;

https://www.daff.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/58293/Stock-assessment-Qld-snapper-fishery-Summary-Apr2009_.pdf


cheers

[Lucky_Phill]

Noel, I may have led you astray... seems there is no TAC / quota on Snapper, but here is an interesting page of info.

http://qfish.daff.qld.gov.au/Query/ViewResults?CubeId=7&PredefinedQueryId=ac21123e-3413-4d1a-ab69-ede59454eca5&ViewKind=Pivot


cheers

[dayoo]

I would like to state a few facts learned while I was a recreational member on the Snapper working group a couple of years ago.
Snapper in SEQ waters are a subtropical species as distinct from its southern temperate water cousin. A 1 meter SEQ snapper is about 25 years old whereas a 1 metre South Australian snapper could be upwards of 50 years old.

Fishing in general off the south east coast of Queensland is greatly affected by the weather(hot, wet, dry, windy). Some years the snapper fishing is good and other years it is bad. This is reflected in the total catch by both recreational and commercial anglers so a comparison of the catch from one year to the next is not relevant. However the snapper stocks have declined since our grandfathers went snapper fishing but to what extent no one knows for certain. I think that the figure of 90% is somewhat over estimated.

Cheers
Barry

[airlock]

interesting at leat, of course putting a percentage difference is just a bit of a shock tactic, no idea how large the stocks where then and no way to test then or now, we can only base it on what is caught and accurately reported.
But i think most can probably believe that catch rates were a lot higher then and thats a bit of a problem.

[dazyz1]

I have read a number of the reports of trips from 100 years or so ago. The current fishery is a pale reminder of what it was back then. There are a number of reasons for this decline. Habitat degradation probably tops the list but commercial and recreational effort along with commercial bycatch are all chipping away at the current Snapper biomass. There is no single silver bullet that is going to fix the situation and all of the impacts have to be addressed to provide a sustainable fishery into the future. At this point in time I think recreational fishers are doing the hard yards with the tight bag limits and size restrictions and its time to look at the other areas of pressure being exerted on the fish population.
I don't think we will ever return to the days of taking an old timber cruiser (no electronics) to areas in the Rainbow Channel and fishing cord lines for a couple of hundred big Snapper. These days are long gone but there is still much to be done to protect our current stocks as well as our right to access them

Gone are days of catching a couple of hundred snapper from one vessel. They have been replaced with a couple of hundred vessels catching one or two big snapper each. The comparison between the amount of recreational and commercial fishos targeting a certain area back then and now would really put things into perspective. I don't doubt that the stocks are lower now but it would be nice to see some actual stats to see where we stand instead of the usual 'fishing just isn't the same as it was back in the day'. Mind you I've fishing inshore reefs out of Mooloolaba and picked up three 80cm plus snapper in less than 1/2 an hour. There's a lot of factors to consider in this debate and I think data available is still pretty limited.

[Dignity]

Interesting thread, I was going to post an item last week about fish sizes and diminishing fish stocks but had problems downloading from my phone, now resolved and probably timely as I was in the Sydney Fish Markets last week and snapped a couple of pics I wanted to post.

The snapper in these pics were around 25 cm to about 27 cms some possibly smaller, it was hard to tell as I didn't want to be too obvious in what I was doing, should have put my hand spanned in the pics. The Red Emperor I was blown away with as the whiting in the next tray were the same size, WT?. Now you will see that these are all labelled as Product of Australia, can these be farmed fish, I don't know of anyone farming these species but there could be, but if this is what is happening in the commercial sector one can see why the biomass of any fish stocks can be reduced overall.

Yes there are still some big fish caught close to shore and I know of times when I started fishing 40 years ago we could catch as much as you wanted in a short period of time but even then we only ever took what we needed, however now you have to fish really hard and smart to achieve a modicum of success and in some areas the fish have disappeared in total. As mentioned there are many factors involved and many hands to blame, fishers both rec and pro, environmental degradation through incorrect rural practices, developers and councils in bed together doing trade offs on land that impacts on breeding fish areas and so on.

It would also be interesting to get divers views on this subject as they get to see only what we catch.

I read Phill's article with interest and I gather the main gist is that the data gathering and results are at question not the depletion of stocks. How doe we manage data especially as even when I was young it didn't exist is always going to be a point of contention, anyway my rant is over, here are the pics (vendors names blanked out).

[Noelm]

Lots of farmed fish to do not have to comply with size limits, as well as fish from other states, this sort of thing comes up from time to time.

[Noelm]

OH, and what were you up to in Sydney?? fair old walk from Golden Beach to Sydney.....

[back2boats]

I have noticed some suspiciously small fish and crabs in the display at local fish stores too. It is very annoying, as I had to throw back about 8 "baby" snapper like those just the other morning. :(

[Dignity]

Lots of farmed fish to do not have to comply with size limits, as well as fish from other states, this sort of thing comes up from time to time.

I will research farmed Snapper and Red Emperor in Australia later when I get a bit more time but I wouldn't have thought farming either would have been commercially viable at the moment, I know snapper farming has been investigated but not sure how far along it has come, as I said will check it out later today as I have go out and take some friends that are visiting fishing, seems that is one of the penalties of living near the water, what a hard life.


OH, and what were you up to in Sydney?? fair old walk from Golden Beach to Sydney......
Visiting friends, apparently they were lonely and had some special deals going for a couple of restaurants etc which were for 4 people, not sure if we saved any money with flights, shuttle buses etc but a good time was held by all.

[Dignity]

Also in Sydney the prevalence of female crabs (I know it is quite legal there and other places) was quite high, in fact they sold a slightly higher price as they supposedly weighed more and were sweeter, (like a few females I know).

[Noelm]

yep, plenty of female crabs for sale down this way, kind of strange what goes on actually, at the start of the season (now) the ratio of female to male crabs would be 50/50, but later on (say March-April) you will be lucky to get one female a trip! they must mate, then shove off somewhere, out to sea maybe? It is legal to take female crabs, but not if they have eggs.

[Noelm]

here is a tiny piece on farming by the NSW fisheries dudes
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fisheries/aquaculture/publications/species-saltwater/marine-fish

[Dignity]

Noelm, had a few moments up my sleeve as visitors haven't arrived, I did find that site although I thought it was a bit ambiguous as on the one hand "
Currently, there is a commercial snapper and mulloway farm in Botany Bay, Sydney, utilising floating mesh cages." then followed by "NSW Fisheries has also granted a lease for a snapper farm near Port Stephens, in ocean waters 3 kilometres off the coast. The project is designed to test the feasibility of a full-scale commercial snapper farm. " I'm confused. I could also only find this about Red Emperor which unfortunately is not in Australia http://www.spc.int/aquaculture/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82:successful-red-emperor-snapper-spawning-at-the-mariculture-development-centre-in-new-caledonia&catid=15:articles. Anyway I think I have hijacked the theme of this thread and maybe take it up again in a later thread.

[yakka]

the bros (caloundra) have undersize snapper regularly, supposed to be wild caught, have said to them if i was caught with them they would take my boat