Deep cycle batteries - whats the go?

[Twosheds]

I currently have dual N70Z marine cranking batteries in my boat with a simple <1 2 Both Off> isolating switch. Now that the no. 2 battery is starting to fade I have been thinking of replacing it with a deep cycle battery and creating a dedicated house supply.

In my searches so far I have found that there are not only deep cycle batteries but also 'hybrids' that claim to offer cranking ability as well as deep cycle capability. Now this seems pretty good on the surface because I originally installed the second battery to ensure I could start the engine if the no 1 battery karked it. But I would like the benefits of a house supply to run the lights, sounder, radios, live bait tank etc without draining the no 1 cranking battery. So if I go for the 'hybrid' can I have my cake and eat it too.... or is there a drawback I haven't seen.

To complicate things I want to take the deep cycle battery (or hybrid) when we go camping to run a Waeco fridge/freezer and LED lights in the camper trailer. My tightarse tendencies are resisting the desire to buy two deep cycle batteries for the boat and camper trailer when I could get by with one. However the majority of use will be in the boat with only 1 or 2 camping trips each year.

Now with a dedicated house supply in the boat should I be looking at installing a VSR or is it simpler just to chuck the house supply battery on a smart charger after every trip in the boat. The boat sits on a trailer in the back yard.

So, whats the go? Can anybody offer their advice on the hybrid -vs- deep cycle battery?

Thanks in advance
Twosheds

[JulianDeMarchi]

Can't offer expert advice. However I run dual hybrids in my boat. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/resources/battery-finder/product/n70zmI have not had issues with them as of yet. I run one dedicated for my "house" electronics and the second for the engine. We sat at Lady Musgrave for over 14 hours using the battery with no issues, and she sat at 12volts the whole time. I also run an amp guage so I know what I'm pulling and we were sucking 4amps the whole time.Not sure if this info will help you about pros and cons, but hopefully it can let you know that they do work in real life uses.

[Camhawk88]

I do the same with my trailer battery. One of my motor batteries died in the boat (twin motors) so I pulled the trailer one out to get me by. It then occurred to me it is better to do this than buy another one as the battery will get used more often if being shared. As you probably know, the more a battery is used (or more to the point the less it is left to sit), the longer it will probably last you.

[deckie]

Cant say about the VSR coz we dont know what motor you run and its charging capacity, and we dont know how much current u draw on an average days boating (just add it up roughly).

I'll guess though basis what u said, and say you dont need a VSR....if the basic crank battery you have been using to run all the electricals (it wont have much reserve capacity being a dedicated crank batt as you know) if that doesnt normally flatten with usage out on the water on a normal day...then i;d guess you dont need the capacity to charge a newer and larger house batt you put in due to a bigger reserve capacity for that fridge on the camper. A larger deep cycle battery will usually have a larger crank capacity, but u need to check on that coz some deep cycles are almost purpose built as storage batts only.

I run an Optima blue top as the crank, which is probably what u mean by a "hybrid" in that it has a CCA around 600-700 and a reserve capacity of about 55Ahr. That would likely be suitable for most trailerboats as a single unit to run eveything, but not enough reserve capacity for my needs....similar to you in that regard. The house i run is an Odyssea which is about 100Ahr and 700CCA and that would likely be perfectly suitable, but they aint cheap. These are both what u would probably call "hybrids" but its the reserve capacity u must get for the fridge on the trailer....u dnt need it for the boat by the sounds of it. I also have one i use to winch the boat around the yard labelled an "ALLROUNDER", and that is about 600-700CCA and 80AHr....about 5yrs old and been perfect so far...reckon they'd make great batts for a dual batt system.

All home charged. No VSR ever needed nor wanted.
I draw a fair bit of power on the water, but still never need to charge that house battery....a VSR (if not required) is just something else that can go wrong in a harsh and corrosive environment on the water....less electricals the better on a boat. Must be a definite need to charge a second battery on a boat to bother adding a VSR i reckon and u dont have that need by the sounds of it....if u dont think a simple home charged deep cycle 100Ahr house battery is more than enough for a day on the water (you would be TRIPLING the reserves you've previously had on the 2nd house batt) then maybe think about a VSR....otherwise its just something a bored woman made in an overseas sweatshop that is slowly corroding and providing nothing to you. Less electricals on boats the better.

Plenty of these "hybrids" around perfect for the boats house battery, BUT its not about the boat from what u describe...thats the easy part....the upshot is that it will be all about powering that fridge on the camper trailer and how you maintain the charge. Plus of course whether you can (or want to) move a big arse 25-30kilo battery about.
You need to be able to charge it off the vehicle, unless you "camp" where there's a 240V outlet....u got that part sorted ? coz thats the difficult part.

So yeah i wouldnt bother with a VSR if you've been fine running a crank as the house battery...home charging with a good auto charger is perfect for 95% of guys. Maybe get yourself a small voltmeter and get used to testing both batts prior to setting out, and keep it on the boat.
Sounds like a 100Ahr AGM would be perfect, just check the CCA against the outboard...but the hard part is charging it whilst camping. Boat is the easy part with a home charger.

[scorpo92]

Hey matr ive got a 90amp/h hybrid as my second battery in my car. I run a 60l engel full time and have started the car plenty of times with it. I also have a 120watt solar panel on my roof connected to charge my hyvrid battery at all times.

[deckie]

Hey matr ive got a 90amp/h hybrid as my second battery in my car. I run a 60l engel full time and have started the car plenty of times with it. I also have a 120watt solar panel on my roof connected to charge my hyvrid battery at all times.

This sounds like good coalface advice...i'm curious too about what it takes to keep the charge up to a batt running a fridge.
Would u reckon the 120W panel is more like minimum needed or overkill ? The 90Ahr ok to keep the fridge going overnight then start the car in the morning ?

[scorpo92]

This sounds like good coalface advice...i'm curious too about what it takes to keep the charge up to a batt running a fridge.
Would u reckon the 120W panel is more like minimum needed or overkill ? The 90Ahr ok to keep the fridge going overnight then start the car in the morning ?
I never really worked it out. Haha. But yer I have dual battery meters and first thing in the morning after running all night ive never seen the battery lower than 12.5v. Have never had a problem starting or anything. Had this set up for 18 months running full time and I only drive about 15minutes a day so the solar is doin most of the work. So far so good haha.

[deckie]

At 12.5V means it should still be around a minimum of 75% charged in the morning after running the fridge all night. Pretty impressive for a 90Ahr.
Sounds perfect for twsosheds needs....do u remember the name of it ?

[JulianDeMarchi]

VSR ain't that bad Deckie. If it goes wrong, it'll separate. Otherwise, just disconnect the positive from each battery going to the VSR and then the unit is avoid. My VSR is a fully sealed unit, an I've run it for 24months so far with no issue. It's even saved my starting battery before when the house battery died(my stupid fault). Without a VSR I would of joined both batteries not knowing what was going on, then my bad battery would of drained the good. I'm a big fan of the VSR units, simple little beasts. You're right though, it's easy to go over the top with electronics on a boat.

[deckie]

Yeah i know matey, i prob went a bit overboard up there^^...but sometimes i wonder if we havent ventured too far into techie town with trailerboats. Its not our loungeroom where we all like to have the latest flat screen...its safety first rather than convenience first on a boat.
Wasnt so long ago most of us on 5m trailerboats ventured out with just one battery, i survived, my mates did too...we'd occasionally have an issue but it was invariably self inflicted such as "should have replaced it LAST year" or "forgot to charge it". Overall though as long as u maintained a boat including the battery you were hunky dory.

Then we carried TWO coz we'd like to run bigger lights overnight, have Led Zeppelin blasting away, or livey pumps all day long even though it wasnt strictly necessary. Then we started joining them together and chased all sorts of reasons to justify this...but that wasnt enough...then we wanted to charge that 2nd battery whilst out there so we added yet another cluster to the clusterphuk ;D.

All the while we somehow strayed away from the safety aspect....and even the problem you just described likely wouldnt have happened if you went back in time 30yrs and didnt even have the two batteries connected AT ALL. I'm talking forget the VSR saving you...the problem was that you had a dual battery system in the first place.

What if you didnt ?...if your 2 batteries were totally seperate and your house batt was ample size to run everything for the day totally seperate from the crank ? You say without the VSR you would have joined the two batts not knowing what was going on then draining both. Would it be fair to say that having both batteries connected caused a potential problem to arise ?

At what point did someone introduce a rule saying if u carry 2 batts for safety then u must connect them together, instead of purposefully leaving them totally separate...thereby maximising the benefits of carrying two batteries in the first place.
Why even flirt with bastardising them into ONE ? Isnt that almost reducing the reasoning behind having two ? ;D

Friday arvo beer talking a bit here ;D

[juggernaut]

Deckie - a VSR disengages/doesn't engage if one of the batteries fall/is below a preset voltage - thereby preventing draining both batteries.

[deckie]

Deckie - a VSR disengages/doesn't engage if one of the batteries fall/is below a preset voltage - thereby preventing draining both batteries.
I understand that matey.
Why do u have one ?...what is the actual advantage for you ?

[juggernaut]

Judging by your post it didn't come across that way - too many beers!

Advantage is both batteries are being charged when the o/b is running.

[deckie]

Judging by your post it didn't come across that way - too many beers!

Advantage is both batteries are being charged when the o/b is running.
What do u have onboard and its current draw for an average day ?...and what is your house battery ? Be honest.

[ericcs]

the brother inlaw has a 100hp yami 4st, and earlier this year his engine died at the fads off straddie($400 tow fee)
the rectifier shat itself killing all the electrics which i believe cost around $800 to fix. he uses a normal cranking battery
and a deep cycle/standby battery, and unfortunately had the isolator on both1/2, this apparently is what caused the failure
so, if they're different batteries, don't combine them, use one or the other

[deckie]

the brother inlaw has a 100hp yami 4st, and earlier this year his engine died at the fads off straddie($400 tow fee)
the rectifier shat itself killing all the electrics which i believe cost around $800 to fix. he uses a normal cranking battery
and a deep cycle/standby battery, and unfortunately had the isolator on both1/2, this apparently is what caused the failure
so, if they're different batteries, don't combine them, use one or the other
I see. Yes. Interesting,.
So, if we ignore WHICH batteries he had for a moment......you're saying the guy had a dual system connected via an isolator switch...which is what actually caused his problem.
hmmmmmmm yes interesting isnt it.

Seems a common problem already in this thread .....how about this as a solution before that issue even arises....how about you dont connect the two batteries at all to begin with.
Controversial ?
Where's the rule that says u should ?
Just wondering.

[Fed]

I gave my current boat a lot of thought about this Deckie and came back to 1 battery for 1 motor with the cables firmly bolted straight to the battery & no extras.
Even adding a 1,2,Both switch introduces 8 extra potential failure points to stop your motor starting or take out your rectifier.
When my battery fails I'll jump start it with a powerpack and if they both fail at the same time I'll pull start it.

I guess a lot depends on your power usage but my boat makes more power than it uses so I get back to the ramp fully charged.

[Twosheds]

Thanks for all the replies, some good points raised that I never really considered.

I had previously worked out that I needed a minimum 100 - 120Ah deep cycle battery to run the Waeco (65l fridge/freezer) in conjunction with a 120W solar panel charging system when camping away from mains power. So what did I do - bought a 80W solar system because they were half price at CBF last week. If the battery was any larger it wouldn't fit in the battery box on the camper trailer or in the battery box on the boat either for that matter. Plus my tightarse tendencies were already calculating extra cost of a larger capacity battery and new battery boxes and the extra work in fitting them


I hadn't thought of Deckie's point that I had already been using my no. 1 cranking battery to run everything on the boat. So really whatever size (within reason) deep cycle or hybrid battery that I used as a dedicated house supply would have enough capacity for my needs. I reckon the live bait tank would be the biggest user given all my lights are LED and I only run VHF radio, GPS and FM radio. So the size of the battery will be dictated by what I need to run the Waeco when camping.

When fishing I usually run out on the no 1 battery and don't switch over to the no 2 battery to give it a recharge until we are ready for the run home (if I remember). Motor is a Yammie 150 HPDI and must be charging the no 1 battery sufficiently because I rarely have to go near it with the smart charger. No 2 battery is a different story, but it is older and starting to fade. Given your experience Deckie I think I will delay the VSR and see how it goes with a recharge of the house supply at home after every trip.

For those that are using the hybrid type battery what sort of life expectancy have you had for the battery. I am tending towards the hybrid battery because of the safety aspect of being able to crank the motor if the no 1 starting battery karks itself.


Thanks for all your input

Regards
Twosheds

[The Woo]

A VSR when correctly installed simply priority charges the engine start battery first.
Once the engine start bank reaches full capacity it then switches to charging the house bank.
At no point are the banks "linked". Of course a switchable link can be added if the need arises to use house to start engine.
The boat should be wired so only engines run from the engine bank. Nothing else.

[Dignity]

When fishing I usually run out on the no 1 battery and don't switch over to the no 2 battery to give it a recharge until we are ready for the run home (if I remember). Motor is a Yammie 150 HPDI and must be charging the no 1 battery sufficiently because I rarely have to go near it with the smart charger. No 2 battery is a different story, but it is older and starting to fade. Given your experience Deckie I think I will delay the VSR and see how it goes with a recharge of the house supply at home after every trip.

For those that are using the hybrid type battery what sort of life expectancy have you had for the battery. I am tending towards the hybrid battery because of the safety aspect of being able to crank the motor if the no 1 starting battery karks itself.


Thanks for all your input

Regards
Twosheds

twosheds, I had to replace my house battery recently and I suspect that like you I keep forgetting to put it for the run home and it was left in too low a discharged state too often. have a little sign on my dashboard now "which battery is on" , serves me as a reminder as I don't like to complicate the witching process, I even contemplating modifying the switch so I couldn't have it on 1/2.

I replaced the house battery with the hybrid type as they have been a round a little while, I think they use them in Mazda's with the sky technology where the motor is turned off every time you put your foot on the brake and them the motor starts up again to take off. Time will tell. I used to have a solar panel that I would hook up with a regulator to keep my batteries up to charge but with the new additions to my house I haven't gotten around to replacing it.

My crank battery is of the gel type and depending on who you talk to the battery charger needs to be at least 10% output of the CCA ie if it is a 700CCa then the charger should at least be able to pump 7 amps into the battery, I don't know how true it is but I did have a 4 amp charger which would not look at the gel battery.

One thing I can advise you on is do NOT put a calcium type battery in your boat because if they ever get too low they will fail, they require constant monitoring, replaced 2 of them within 6 months, the first one because I left the switch to "on", the second one I couldn't work out why the voltage had dropped. Maybe I have shot myself in the foot if the hybrids have calcium in them :)

[astro66]

i have a 100ah deep cycle hybrid as start /elecy motor...for electrics/lights 125ah high discharge deep cycle(aussie batteries 280$)

[juggernaut]

What do u have onboard and its current draw for an average day ?...and what is your house battery ? Be honest.

Just fitting two amps with over 1000 watts combined with 4 speakers and a sub - amps need 4awg cable each and one amp alone has 4 x 20watt fuses ......so I'm guessing they draw a bit.

House battery is a Trojan 27TMX. I'm guessing it needs all the help it can get.

[juggernaut]

I see. Yes. Interesting,.
....how about you dont connect the two batteries at all to begin with.
Controversial ?
Where's the rule that says u should ?
Just wondering.

I agree - don't connect them together with a 1, 2 both switch but use a VSR only to charge both.

However in commercial applications you will find banks a batteries permanently connected together. I used to own a commercial cray boat with my brother and we had two banks of four batteries. Everything was taken off the one bank through a 1, 2 both switch and we switched banks every day for charging & current draw i.e. each bank was rested for a day whilst the other was used/charged for the day.

[juggernaut]

A VSR when correctly installed simply priority charges the engine start battery first.
Once the engine start bank reaches full capacity it then switches to charging the house bank.


That's not quite correct - a dual sense VSR will charge whatever battery/batteries needs to be charged without any priority. In combined mode the batteries merely become one big battery and the VSR cannot decipher between one battery or the other with the result that the charge is only taken up by the battery/batteries that that can accept the charge (charge acceptance) and not the VSR directing/prioritising the charge.

[deckie]

Just fitting two amps with over 1000 watts combined with 4 speakers and a sub - amps need 4awg cable each and one amp alone has 4 x 20watt fuses ......so I'm guessing they draw a bit.

House battery is a Trojan 27TMX. I'm guessing it needs all the help it can get.
sheeeeeeezus :o
I can see why the onboard charging.
Thats serious kit.

[deckie]

I gave my current boat a lot of thought about this Deckie and came back to 1 battery for 1 motor with the cables firmly bolted straight to the battery & no extras.
Even adding a 1,2,Both switch introduces 8 extra potential failure points to stop your motor starting or take out your rectifier.
When my battery fails I'll jump start it with a powerpack and if they both fail at the same time I'll pull start it.

I guess a lot depends on your power usage but my boat makes more power than it uses so I get back to the ramp fully charged.
Sounds like a very sound and safe boat you're running. Getting off track again but i also sometimes wonder if people check if they can pull start their donks and/or have practiced the procedure.
With half decent maintenance its not that common to drop one battery...but to have two separate ones fail at the same time would be akin to lotto odds i imagine. Thats the beauty of simplicity...but once we start adding ancillary electronics and connections means you are only increasing the chances of getting caught out/a dble battery failure for some freaky reason...whereas many of us tend to think of them as some sort of added safety feature. So if its not needed...dont complicate it i reckon.

Its more vibration that can cause a lot of the probs with connections i reckon. Plus simply getting hand access behind the iso switches and clusters on some boats is a pain in the arse.

Off a smallish cuddy i run nothing special...a bit of music, vhf, sounder, gps, livey pump, hand spottie, deckwash, lots of light...kind of stock standard requirements i suppose....and the 100Ahr house has been plenty and i just top it up when i get home. Isolator switch but no vsr. Yepp i wonder if i should even bother having the switch sometimes.

I know i'm talking a lot of back to the future, and i'm not some sort of boating luddite...definitely good reasons to have a full dual batt setup with vsr for many guys. Just a needs basis decision i suppose.

[JulianDeMarchi]

Yeah i know matey, i prob went a bit overboard up there^^...but sometimes i wonder if we havent ventured too far into techie town with trailerboats. Its not our loungeroom where we all like to have the latest flat screen...its safety first rather than convenience first on a boat.
Wasnt so long ago most of us on 5m trailerboats ventured out with just one battery, i survived, my mates did too...we'd occasionally have an issue but it was invariably self inflicted such as "should have replaced it LAST year" or "forgot to charge it". Overall though as long as u maintained a boat including the battery you were hunky dory.

Then we carried TWO coz we'd like to run bigger lights overnight, have Led Zeppelin blasting away, or livey pumps all day long even though it wasnt strictly necessary. Then we started joining them together and chased all sorts of reasons to justify this...but that wasnt enough...then we wanted to charge that 2nd battery whilst out there so we added yet another cluster to the clusterphuk ;D.

All the while we somehow strayed away from the safety aspect....and even the problem you just described likely wouldnt have happened if you went back in time 30yrs and didnt even have the two batteries connected AT ALL. I'm talking forget the VSR saving you...the problem was that you had a dual battery system in the first place.

What if you didnt ?...if your 2 batteries were totally seperate and your house batt was ample size to run everything for the day totally seperate from the crank ? You say without the VSR you would have joined the two batts not knowing what was going on then draining both. Would it be fair to say that having both batteries connected caused a potential problem to arise ?

At what point did someone introduce a rule saying if u carry 2 batts for safety then u must connect them together, instead of purposefully leaving them totally separate...thereby maximising the benefits of carrying two batteries in the first place.
Why even flirt with bastardising them into ONE ? Isnt that almost reducing the reasoning behind having two ? ;D

Friday arvo beer talking a bit here ;D

All great point mate. I'll expand on the issue I had before venturing more into your other points. My problem was caused due to a hole in my battery which drained one cell. If I was running one battery, this would of been a tow home. If I was running only a 4 way isolator this would have also drained my good battery if I joined them. By running a VSR it detected that the battery with a hole in it was under 9 volts and it refused to join the batteries. I then flick my isolator to 1 - disconnect the bad battery, 2 join my house electronics to the good battery. So this is all safety related. As I said in my case I don't run much electronics. Two MFDs and a network switch. No subs, amps or that other stuff you don't actually need on a boat.

Now onto why I run my system of two batteries and not one. Starting my Yammie 150 turns my MFDs off due to the power draw of the starter. Raymarine requires a nice steady power flow to keep them on. I was sick of starting my engine after a drift then waiting for both units to turn back on.

So in reality what I did was for safety and peace of mind.

I also understand that back in "your" day you didn't do any of this. Well in my day, we do. Enjoy! :)

[JulianDeMarchi]

Sounds like a very sound and safe boat you're running. Getting off track again but i also sometimes wonder if people check if they can pull start their donks and/or have practiced the procedure.
With half decent maintenance its not that common to drop one battery...but to have two separate ones fail at the same time would be akin to lotto odds i imagine. Thats the beauty of simplicity...but once we start adding ancillary electronics and connections means you are only increasing the chances of getting caught out/a dble battery failure for some freaky reason...whereas many of us tend to think of them as some sort of added safety feature. So if its not needed...dont complicate it i reckon.

Its more vibration that can cause a lot of the probs with connections i reckon. Plus simply getting hand access behind the iso switches and clusters on some boats is a pain in the arse.

Off a smallish cuddy i run nothing special...a bit of music, vhf, sounder, gps, livey pump, hand spottie, deckwash, lots of light...kind of stock standard requirements i suppose....and the 100Ahr house has been plenty and i just top it up when i get home. Isolator switch but no vsr. Yepp i wonder if i should even bother having the switch sometimes.

I know i'm talking a lot of back to the future, and i'm not some sort of boating luddite...definitely good reasons to have a full dual batt setup with vsr for many guys. Just a needs basis decision i suppose.

I take it you don't do much over nighters/extended trips? Overnight I pull 5amps with all the lights on. When at the ausfish m&g(1770) I don't need to charge my batteries all week due to my VSR. It's very dangerous to run both batteries joined together via an isolator. A bad battery will kill your good battery as she just sucks all the juice outta the good. A VSR, setup properly is a safety measure not a toy and in my opinion every boat with a dual system should run one. A bait tank pump alone will draw 3+amps and I've got lots of real world, first hand stories about batteries dying due to bait tank pumps and deck washes. A deck wash can chew up to 5amps. Depending on volume your stereo can also chew a lot of amps.

So you can learn a bit if you have not read already, here is the VSR I run. Google more information about them and you might be surprised at how simple and un-complicated they are.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BLUE-SEA-7650-VOLTAGE-SENSITIVE-RELAY-12V-VSR-MARINE-120A-DUAL-BATTERY-SYSTEM-/400798170004?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d516ebb94

[comfortably numb]

[QUOTE=Twosheds;1570154] Motor is a Yammie 150 HPDI
I have a 200 HPDI and was reading the manual for it the other day (!) you can get an extra bit of wiring for these that charges a second battery independently so no need for a vsr and no need to swap batteries to recharge both I have been meaning to check it out

[deckie]

Julian...i see whewre you;re coming from and agree...but thats coz you're just in that group that has a need for a VSR, yeah ? As i said in the last sentence...needs basis right ? Nothing to do with what Twosheds needs from what he said...did he say anything leading you to believe he need one ? Why should we suggest adding any electrics if they arnt needed ?

btw ...i certainly dont run my deckwash all night even though it draws 7-8A...try turning it off after u finish http://www.ausfish.com.au/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/Original%20Smilies/tongue.gif
My stuff and needs is pretty stock...lights are all leds...navs only about 0.3A and thats only when on the move, anch light 0.4A, cab lights rarely on and they draw only 0.6A, led decklights draw 1.5A but they are only on when rigging or cleaning...as you'd probably know if you keep them on you cant see a damn thing outside the boat, so i;d guess 20% of the time, and thats 20% of stationary time only.
Sounder/GPS draws bugger all..1-1.5A. VHF doesnt draw much unless i'm talking on it which is long anyway....and that often gets switched off totally coz its so damn quiet at night any chatter shits me to tears.
Stereo is regular issue...no power amp etc. They draw a shitload only if you want it to, like Juggernaut does, or if you like your doof doof loud. I'd have snapper leads thrown at me even if i had the music on at all after dark. I'm hawkesbury river/cowan creek. You can hear a pin drop 200m away at night and any shithead that wants to play loud music and ruin the night for everyone gets the royal treatment. So the stereo is only ever a small issue during the daytime.
Little livey pump draws only 3.5A, and unless i'm carrying slimeys it is only on 2/3rds of the time coz more is simply overkill.
I recently moved to a hid spotlight and i have that sitting on the dash in front of me...my old hand held halogen beast drew about 12A but this one is only 7-8A. But thats only on maybe 10% of the time....and only to occasionally swipe the beam across anything in front if i'm unsure. You cant leave it on anyway coz u wont see a bloody thing in front of you at night with a spot in front of you. So obviously the reality is that it doesnt drain more than absolute tops of maybe 3A of reserve per hour...and even thats assuming i'm moving around a heap.

When something is rated say 5A...that means when IT IS ON. Other than maybe the anch light, sounder and livey pump, most stuff is lucky to be on 20% of the time. Something like a deckwash might only be on < 5% of the time....mine is mainly used back at the ramp afterwards or to wash stray burley/bait off the back or blood/slime off the deck...30 seconds at a time maybe ?

Even with that sort of load on a house battery (its not really that much)...i'd say i;m probably still using more than about 95% of trailerboats.

Its not a great deal of load on a 100Ahr reserve house battery for an average trip. The lowest reading i've seen when back at the ramp has been 12.1V after a long night...and on my house batt that represents 40% still remaining. Even if it ever went down to 30% i can always simply switch over to the crank if needed to stay awhile longer...or switch off unnecessary stuff like a livey pump etc.

$70 gets you a good dual voltmeter to put on your dash. That will tell you just about everything and may have even given you fair warning about your buggered battery...possibly long before ever thinking you were "lucky" to have a VSR. The reason you feel lucky you had the VSR is because you had the two batteries setup to be able to charge both of them off the donk....which came first the chicken or the egg ?...you wouldnt have even needed to thank a VSR if you didnt run the batt setup you have in the first place. In your case its needed though.

VSR's are great...for those that require it.
Bizzarre though how often in here people just blurt out "get a vsr" and they dont even know what motor the bloke has...or whther he even needs anything more than to carry 2 batts and keep them totally seperate. Many might be surprised that the most successful outboard in history, the good old carby 70 yam 2stk, will only put out maybe 6A charge current. Is that going to make a vsr chatter like a old biddy ? Got to at least ASK first....this business of pretending everyone should have the full clusterphuk has gone beyond a joke i reckon.
So its simply NEEDS BASIS yeah ? Doesnt mean i;m living in the past does it ?...it simply means i like safe boating and that means the LESS chinese made boxes and switches the better, and less connections of course. Some people try to make it sound like others are stupid unless they add needless electricals and complicate something as simple as carrying two batteries.

Twosheds cant even flatten a crank battery whilst running everything off it....so why the hell would he need to add a vsr when he's going to be adding a bigger reserve battery anyway ? Where's the need ? Is he going to be somehow safer adding a grey box he doesnt require ?
Doubt 95% of boaties require anything more than to simply carry that second battery, run everything off it and leave the crank totally separate for the motor. That is as safe as u can possibly make it...whilst still convenient. Adding unnecessary electricals into the equation in a harsh environment will invariably reduce safety, not improve it.

Even on the trip home, why the hell would i even want to "switch" over to charge the house battery ?
I;m going to put the thing on the charger within an hour or so anyway, so why even bother ? 3-4 hrs and its 100% charged at home ready to go again. Whats the point charging it if you dont need to ? Is there something exciting about it that i dont know about ? Is it just one of those "cool things to do" simply because you can ?

Isnt it simpler to simply say "needs basis" ?

[scottar]

I don't run a VSR on my rig. The battery switch tends to get run on both for most of the time and switched to one battery for overnight stays. One thing that often gets overlooked with VSR's is failure of the unit itself. If you have no battery meter on your house battery, you are never sure it is getting a charge until the lights go out - then you know for sure it wasn't. I have seen this issue caused by both failures of the VSR unit itself and the VSR wiring. The most common point of failure in trailer boats is the light gauge negative wire that provides the negative to run the VSR's smarts. If you do choose to go down the VSR route, make sure that you at least have a manual parallel switch or an override for the VSR unit. A meter for the house battery is also a sound investment.

[JulianDeMarchi]

Deckie, I think we have some mis-communication here. I didn't recommend a VSR at all. I was just letting the OP know what my setup was with my "hybrid" battery to give a clear picture.

The thing I am debating with you however is the safety and "basic" setup points you have made. The only point I was trying to get across was that a VSR does add safety to your boat and it is a "basic" addition to your system. If it does cause any issues, it's only one wire that you have to disconnect to isolate the VSR, that is the shared negative wire which it uses to sense the volatge of the batteries. My egnine outputs 18amps at full noise, enough to charge my house battery while on the move. I also have an AMP gauge on my boat so I always know what my electronics are pulling.

In my smaller boat I only run an 8amp hour battery, and only one.

In regards to the example I gave, it was all my fault and I've learned more since then. The VSR saved me from stupid me. I didn't think through the way the boat was previously setup, and both my volt gauges were running of the cranking battery. If I didn't have the VSR I would of killed my starting battery cause of stupid me. This is why I now have the amp/volt for my house battery and the volt for my cranking battery. After I sit on the water for 15+ hours my house battery is down to 11.9 volts and is in need of a charge. I leave my sounder on over night for the drift alarm.

[LittleSkipper]

Julian...i see whewre you;re coming from and agree...but thats coz you're just in that group that has a need for a VSR, yeah ? As i said in the last sentence...needs basis right ? Nothing to do with what Twosheds needs from what he said...did he say anything leading you to believe he need one ? Why should we suggest adding any electrics if they arnt needed ?

btw ...i certainly dont run my deckwash all night even though it draws 7-8A...try turning it off after u finish http://www.ausfish.com.au/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/Original%20Smilies/tongue.gif
My stuff and needs is pretty stock...lights are all leds...navs only about 0.3A and thats only when on the move, anch light 0.4A, cab lights rarely on and they draw only 0.6A, led decklights draw 1.5A but they are only on when rigging or cleaning...as you'd probably know if you keep them on you cant see a damn thing outside the boat, so i;d guess 20% of the time, and thats 20% of stationary time only.
Sounder/GPS draws bugger all..1-1.5A. VHF doesnt draw much unless i'm talking on it which is long anyway....and that often gets switched off totally coz its so damn quiet at night any chatter shits me to tears.
Stereo is regular issue...no power amp etc. They draw a shitload only if you want it to, like Juggernaut does, or if you like your doof doof loud. I'd have snapper leads thrown at me even if i had the music on at all after dark. I'm hawkesbury river/cowan creek. You can hear a pin drop 200m away at night and any shithead that wants to play loud music and ruin the night for everyone gets the royal treatment. So the stereo is only ever a small issue during the daytime.
Little livey pump draws only 3.5A, and unless i'm carrying slimeys it is only on 2/3rds of the time coz more is simply overkill.
I recently moved to a hid spotlight and i have that sitting on the dash in front of me...my old hand held halogen beast drew about 12A but this one is only 7-8A. But thats only on maybe 10% of the time....and only to occasionally swipe the beam across anything in front if i'm unsure. You cant leave it on anyway coz u wont see a bloody thing in front of you at night with a spot in front of you. So obviously the reality is that it doesnt drain more than absolute tops of maybe 3A of reserve per hour...and even thats assuming i'm moving around a heap.

When something is rated say 5A...that means when IT IS ON. Other than maybe the anch light, sounder and livey pump, most stuff is lucky to be on 20% of the time. Something like a deckwash might only be on < 5% of the time....mine is mainly used back at the ramp afterwards or to wash stray burley/bait off the back or blood/slime off the deck...30 seconds at a time maybe ?

Even with that sort of load on a house battery (its not really that much)...i'd say i;m probably still using more than about 95% of trailerboats.

Its not a great deal of load on a 100Ahr reserve house battery for an average trip. The lowest reading i've seen when back at the ramp has been 12.1V after a long night...and on my house batt that represents 40% still remaining. Even if it ever went down to 30% i can always simply switch over to the crank if needed to stay awhile longer...or switch off unnecessary stuff like a livey pump etc.

$70 gets you a good dual voltmeter to put on your dash. That will tell you just about everything and may have even given you fair warning about your buggered battery...possibly long before ever thinking you were "lucky" to have a VSR. The reason you feel lucky you had the VSR is because you had the two batteries setup to be able to charge both of them off the donk....which came first the chicken or the egg ?...you wouldnt have even needed to thank a VSR if you didnt run the batt setup you have in the first place. In your case its needed though.

VSR's are great...for those that require it.
Bizzarre though how often in here people just blurt out "get a vsr" and they dont even know what motor the bloke has...or whther he even needs anything more than to carry 2 batts and keep them totally seperate. Many might be surprised that the most successful outboard in history, the good old carby 70 yam 2stk, will only put out maybe 6A charge current. Is that going to make a vsr chatter like a old biddy ? Got to at least ASK first....this business of pretending everyone should have the full clusterphuk has gone beyond a joke i reckon.
So its simply NEEDS BASIS yeah ? Doesnt mean i;m living in the past does it ?...it simply means i like safe boating and that means the LESS chinese made boxes and switches the better, and less connections of course. Some people try to make it sound like others are stupid unless they add needless electricals and complicate something as simple as carrying two batteries.

Twosheds cant even flatten a crank battery whilst running everything off it....so why the hell would he need to add a vsr when he's going to be adding a bigger reserve battery anyway ? Where's the need ? Is he going to be somehow safer adding a grey box he doesnt require ?
Doubt 95% of boaties require anything more than to simply carry that second battery, run everything off it and leave the crank totally separate for the motor. That is as safe as u can possibly make it...whilst still convenient. Adding unnecessary electricals into the equation in a harsh environment will invariably reduce safety, not improve it.

Even on the trip home, why the hell would i even want to "switch" over to charge the house battery ?
I;m going to put the thing on the charger within an hour or so anyway, so why even bother ? 3-4 hrs and its 100% charged at home ready to go again. Whats the point charging it if you dont need to ? Is there something exciting about it that i dont know about ? Is it just one of those "cool things to do" simply because you can ?

Isnt it simpler to simply say "needs basis" ?

Well said Deckie.

I too have a dual battery setup in my boat with the 1 / 2 / Both / Switch, but no VSR as it was not recommended to me when I had the dual system installed.






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[Fed]

It's even saved my starting battery before when the house battery died(my stupid fault). Without a VSR I would of joined both batteries not knowing what was going on, then my bad battery would of drained the good.

My problem was caused due to a hole in my battery which drained one cell.
Letting the acid out of one cell would have open circuited the battery, impossible to hurt the other battery by switching to both, the VSR didn't save you at all.

[JulianDeMarchi]

Letting the acid out of one cell would have open circuited the battery, impossible to hurt the other battery by switching to both, the VSR didn't save you at all.

With my limited understanding, the battery with a dropped cell would never have got charged. Thus if I had the two joined via the isolator and not the VSR, the battery with the dropped cell would of kept taking the charge of the good battery until it had none left. Am I mistaken in this thought?

[Fed]

Having the battery with the "dropped cell' would have been the same as having no battery there at all Julian.

[ericcs]

I see. Yes. Interesting,.
So, if we ignore WHICH batteries he had for a moment......you're saying the guy had a dual system connected via an isolator switch...which is what actually caused his problem.
hmmmmmmm yes interesting isnt it.

Seems a common problem already in this thread .....how about this as a solution before that issue even arises....how about you dont connect the two batteries at all to begin with.
Controversial ?
Where's the rule that says u should ?
Just wondering.

is there such a thing as an isolator that doesn't have the BOTH function, just 1 OFF 2. this would allow any battery combination to be used safely?

[LittleSkipper]

is there such a thing as an isolator that doesn't have the BOTH function, just 1 OFF 2. this would allow any battery combination to be used safely?

I've checked out the BEP branded switches but they only have an On/Off unit as well as the Off / 1 / 2 & Both functions. Perhaps another brand does?



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[StevenM]

I run two batteries

i have a hybrid for the for the start battery as I need a min 100amp due to running a DI that has this requirement. Nav lights / bilge pump / combo sounder run off this.

My second battery up the front is a 130 amp deep cycle. It is connected to the start battery via a VSR only. No other switching. The deep cycle runs the IPilot and front sounder only.

it is done this way as I do get some charge to the front battery as I move around for place to place.

Rear start battery has an isolator inside so disconnected from start functions when not in use.

i charge both batteries prior any trips via a smart charger connected to the rear battery. It has to charge the start battery first before then going through VSR to front battery. This can be done while isolator is in off position.

[juggernaut]

I have seen this issue caused by both failures of the VSR unit itself and the VSR wiring. The most common point of failure in trailer boats is the light gauge negative wire that provides the negative to run the VSR's smarts. If you do choose to go down the VSR route, make sure that you at least have a manual parallel switch or an override for the VSR unit. A meter for the house battery is also a sound investment.

Sounds like a BEP VSR which have had a few issues. Agree with the voltmeter, although most sounders/chart plotters display volts. Most VSR's can also be wired to be forced to combine.

[juggernaut]

Adding unnecessary electricals into the equation in a harsh environment will invariably reduce safety, not improve it.

Even on the trip home, why the hell would i even want to "switch" over to charge the house battery ?
I;m going to put the thing on the charger within an hour or so anyway, so why even bother ? 3-4 hrs and its 100% charged at home ready to go again. Whats the point charging it if you dont need to ? Is there something exciting about it that i dont know about ? Is it just one of those "cool things to do" simply because you can ?

Isnt it simpler to simply say "needs basis" ?

Deckie, I find its ironic that you've added so many other "unnecessary" electrical "cool things" to warrant two batteries in the first place (where's the needs basis for some of these things?) then critisize a VSR which is probably the most reliable and simplest thing on your boat. Yandina offers an unlimited warranties on their VSR combiners depending on the model. What warranties do you have on your equip? This is the one I use - unlimited warranty. http://www.yandina.com/acrobats/C100Data.pdf

Gee's you then have to charge the batts when you get home - when it could have done on the way back to the ramp!!

You say what the point in charging it if you don't need to....... but then put it on a charger only hours later - more irony.

Is there something cool and exciting about playing with battery chargers compared to a boring VSR i'm missing?

[deckie]

Deckie, I find its ironic that you've added so many other "unnecessary" electrical "cool things" to warrant two batteries in the first place (where's the needs basis for some of these things?) then critisize a VSR which is probably the most reliable and simplest thing on your boat.

See you lost me straight away.
On what basis are you saying that ?
You simply made it up totally out of the blue because you thought it might help what u were going to say.
You;ve just had Scottar up there^^^ telling you about failures as well. But for some strange reason you believe that little grey box is some sort of indestructible never fail essential ?? Plenty of them have failed...just like there's been plenty of failures on just about every piece of equipment on boats.
Dont exaggerate....it just looks like the owner of a 1978 90hp Chrysler that says its totally bulletproof and the most reliable thing on his boat. Maybe it is ...TO HIM...coz it hasnt failed him...YET. He'd get in here and tell anyone that even suggested otherwise they were bullshitting. It looks silly and is needless and innacurate embellishment for no reason.


Yandina offers an unlimited warranties on their VSR combiners depending on the model. What warranties do you have on your equip?
Why do you think that warranty means anything ? Warranty policies are initiated by a company's marketing division. Pure economics and marketing...nothing to do with reliability on a simple cheap item like a vsr. Who the hell is going to return it and ask for another if it just failed you whilst you were 20 miles out ? Noone would.
I'll sell you a $75 set of steak knives guaranteed against you ever cutting yourself, for a lifetime. After 3 yrs u just sliced your finger off...do you feel like a replacement set ?

I can see us 20 mile out on the deep blue together...time to go coz its cutting up a bit fierce, and you turn the key..CLICK. Nuthin. Switch Batts turn the key... CLICK. Once the swearing stops are you going to tell me its nooooo probs Steve...not to worry because "Yandina gave me a lifetime warranty so it cant be the VSR, its definitely something else" ?

Everything on boats has the potential to break, corrode, deteriorate, fail, or even explode....i dont know why you;re a sucker for a pointless warranty on small ticket item that has the potential to screw u over as easily as anything else. Did their marketing dept get it right with you ? Did they agree to pay for your funeral expenses if their product ever fails ? Sorry if i sound cynical matey, but for christsake ::)



Gee's you then have to charge the batts when you get home - when it could have done on the way back to the ramp!!

Are you the only guy in the world these days that doesnt check his batteries before he leaves ?
So before you head out each time you are happy that the house battery is all fine and dandy...coz you charged it on the way home a month ago. Now it reads only 85-90% charged instead of 100 % charged...so its all good ? happy as larry ?

Do you not even get onboard the boat when you get home ? You just park the boat and come back in a months time, and back the car up and off you go ? Dont so much as even wave a little voltmeter near the terminals just to check ?...bingo thats the time it takes to disconnect the home charger and now you have a 100% charged battery instead.
How hard is it to connect an alligator clip or a plug into a fag socket ? Its actually no more difficult than reaching down and turning the iso switch 8-).
One of the massive benefits of AGM's is the ability to draw them down even to <20% and get 1000 cycles or more.
Afterall you're probably going to double the longevity of the battery for a start by maintaining a 100% charge, plus you have the actual battery capacity you paid for instead of a smaller one that wont last as long.
You have complete and utter faith in a chinese box, but arnt worried about maintaining the actual battery ?
My battery is in better condition than yours...plus you have an extra electrical device you must rely on. Where's the safety improvement in that ?

I;m going to be charging them at home anyway...no matter what. They get topped up...its so easy why wouldnt i ?
I can see why it would be necessary to SOME boaties of course...just not for most guys. Especially when it means less electrical shit onboard that murphys law says will likely screw u over just when u need it most...and more stuff to maintain.

Even if u charge the house on the way home...i'm betting u top it up anyway before the next trip out ;)
All i;m saying is i dont need to, its of absolutely no advantage to do so, so therefore why would i bother ?



You say what the point in charging it if you don't need to....... but then put it on a charger only hours later - more irony.

See above.



Is there something cool and exciting about playing with battery chargers compared to a boring VSR i'm missing?
Yes matey there is.
I got a lifetime warranty on my battery charger therefore i trust it with my life ::)

I just dont need one matey. Most dont. Good thing to have IFFF (like Julian off 1770 and your loud doof doof) you might have an actual need. Terrific for camping/4WD/Vans etc or whenever u might be isolated. Yes there are reasons for it...but dont try to tell me it is somehow a safety feature that never fails or that anyone with 2 batteries should have one.

[deckie]

Deckie, I think we have some mis-communication here. I didn't recommend a VSR at all. I was just letting the OP know what my setup was with my "hybrid" battery to give a clear picture.

The thing I am debating with you however is the safety and "basic" setup points you have made. The only point I was trying to get across was that a VSR does add safety to your boat and it is a "basic" addition to your system. If it does cause any issues, it's only one wire that you have to disconnect to isolate the VSR, that is the shared negative wire which it uses to sense the volatge of the batteries. My egnine outputs 18amps at full noise, enough to charge my house battery while on the move. I also have an AMP gauge on my boat so I always know what my electronics are pulling.

In my smaller boat I only run an 8amp hour battery, and only one.

In regards to the example I gave, it was all my fault and I've learned more since then. The VSR saved me from stupid me. I didn't think through the way the boat was previously setup, and both my volt gauges were running of the cranking battery. If I didn't have the VSR I would of killed my starting battery cause of stupid me. This is why I now have the amp/volt for my house battery and the volt for my cranking battery. After I sit on the water for 15+ hours my house battery is down to 11.9 volts and is in need of a charge. I leave my sounder on over night for the drift alarm.

Sorry matey..i've been in a stupid mood the last few days. I got no excuse.
I can see you (and juggernaut) have a good reason to have one, and its a great thing for you. I'm just shit stirring a bit i suppose coz i dint need one and we've had this same discussion 100 times in here over the years and its always fun ;D.

There's something about vsr's that always seems cause a spark in here.

Its like one of those things a lots of guys have, perhaps 1/3rd of those with a VSR actually need one, and 2/3rds of those dont even understand what it does ;D

[LittleSkipper]

Sorry matey..i've been in a stupid mood the last few days. I got no excuse.
I can see you (and juggernaut) have a good reason to have one, and its a great thing for you. I'm just shit stirring a bit i suppose coz i dint need one and we've had this same discussion 100 times in here over the years and its always fun ;D.

There's something about vsr's that always seems cause a spark in here.

Its like one of those things a lots of guys have, perhaps 1/3rd of those with a VSR actually need one, and 2/3rds of those dont even understand what it does ;D

Deckie! That was an outstanding read.

I thought the rant was never going to stop I was enjoying it so much?

You put a smile [emoji2] on my dial.


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[JulianDeMarchi]

Sorry matey..i've been in a stupid mood the last few days. I got no excuse.
I can see you (and juggernaut) have a good reason to have one, and its a great thing for you. I'm just shit stirring a bit i suppose coz i dint need one and we've had this same discussion 100 times in here over the years and its always fun ;D.

There's something about vsr's that always seems cause a spark in here.

Its like one of those things a lots of guys have, perhaps 1/3rd of those with a VSR actually need one, and 2/3rds of those dont even understand what it does ;D

All good bloke. Least we didn't invoke godwins law... :)

[deckie]

Deckie! That was an outstanding read.
I thought the rant was never going to stop I was enjoying it so much?
You put a smile [emoji2] on my dial.
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Glad to be of service.
In this mood i reckon i;ve got one rant left in me...just need a fresh topic to get the shit out of my liver. ;D

[Twosheds]

Thanks Comfortably Numb, I wasn't aware of that info. I am just about to dive into my workshop manual to see if my model (2001) has this feature.

Just a little on battery longevity, the no 2 battery is a Century Marine N70ZM which I purchased in Oct 2009 (wrote it on the battery didn't I). Bought two of them actually. In Nov 2010 I thought one of them was playing up so I pulled it out and replaced it with a Super Charge Seamaster. Turns out it was a corroded battery cable connection causing the issue so the battery sat unused in the shed with only a top up on the smart charger every 6 months of so IF I remembered. Earlier this year my Hilux battery shat itself so I chucked in the old century battery which had been sitting in the shed for nearly 4 years to get me out of trouble for a couple of weeks. Its still going strong. So I guess 5 years of life from a cranking battery is pretty good.

Regards
Twosheds

[juggernaut]

Deckie - judging by the relevance of most of your post I think you've confused me with someone else.

Did i say they don't fail. Nope.

Did I say they're a safety feature? Nope.

Did I say everyone with two batt setup needs one? Nope

They are merely a convenience item as previously pointed out to you...and they ensure my batteries are charged WHEN I need them charged - out on the water......not in the garage hooked up to a battery charger - no point.

It saves having to muck around with chargers at home - some people seemingly enjoy this and disguise this a need - everyone has their hobbies and fetishes I guess.

Nope I don't top up the batts every time i go out - why? Perhaps you should look at getting some better batteries if that's what you have to do every time.

Me - maybe only 2 or 3 times a year on the charger.

Yep I back it in the garage after use. O/b charges them on the way out on the next trip.

Yep I have a volt meter permanently wired to the batts with a gauge on the dash. Fish finder and chart plotter also have house battery voltage.

All works for me and thousands of others - could work for you too....possibly ;D.