Slow starter spinning. No start. F80 Yamaha.

[Rip it up]

Hey guys.

Just seeing if anybody out there has a F80/F100 that is hard to turn over.

I've tested my 3 months old battery. 12.6v.
Put it on a ctek charger overnight to be sure.
Still reading 12.6v.
Voltage at the starter is 12.5v. So acceptable.
But when the key is hit it drops as low as 9v.

Turns over once or twice. But will not fire up.

This situation happened at the ramp this morning.

I had it running on the muffs a few days earlier. But took ages to fire up due to bad carbies.

Carbies are now clean. Thought I would water test this new setup, only to find it would not start at the ramp. Pulled flywheel cover off and wound on the pull cord. ZIP.......
Fires up easy first pull. Ran smooth. Did 15-20mins random rpm water tests to make sure it was running sweet. (Very happy with the carby clean.)

Get back to the ramp shut it down. Hit the key to refire and nothing but a slow couple of turns then nothing. Voltage above 12.7v.

This motor has been sitting for a number of years so not surprised if it has a few gremlins.

Anybody got some suggestions to check the starter circuit?

Thanks.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Rip it up]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/05/bed08e65dddbe75b2f5ca9463600a118.jpg
Forgot the photos.
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Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Noelm]

A couple of things, first up, swap the battery anyway to test, a shagged battery can exhibit symptoms you describe, next, remove the battery terminals and clean them, even if they look clear, do it anyway, if this doesn't fix it, and you have tried it a couple of times, feel he battery cables at the terminal ends (both ends) and feel if they are warm, this could indicate a faulty cable, check the battery cables end to end to look for signs of damage, failing that, it's time to test the starter, Yamaha starters are known to bugger up.

[Rip it up]

Thanks noelm. Should have elaborated a little more.

Tested using 3 known good batteries. Wiring is all in very good condition. Re terminated at the battery to be sure.

Felt the cables at both ends and they seem normal to the touch.
But the housing of the starter is stupid hot.

Did a test on the solenoid without the starter connected.
12.5v on +VE side. 0v with key off. 12.5v with key on.

Need some testing options for this starter motor.

I removed it from the and space it away from engaging.
With a no load spinning arrangement I read 8.6v at the starter motor terminals. But with the flywheel engaged it will drop to 4.3v.

Do these older carb models have a high level of starting compression? Causing a large CCA battery?






Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Dignity]

Rip it up, do all the batteries drop to 9 volts when you tested them, as that is one hell of a load on them.

[Rip it up]

Thanks noelm. Should have elaborated a little more.

Tested using 3 known good batteries. Wiring is all in very good condition. Re terminated at the battery to be sure.

Felt the cables at both ends and they seem normal to the touch.
But the housing of the starter is stupid hot.

Did a test on the solenoid without the starter connected.
12.5v on +VE side. 0v with key off. 12.5v with key on.

Need some testing options for this starter motor.

I removed it from the and space it away from engaging.
With a no load spinning arrangement I read 8.6v at the starter motor terminals. But with the flywheel engaged it will drop to 4.3v.

Do these older carb models have a high level of starting compression? Causing a large CCA battery?






Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[docaster]

Sounds like a connection or cable problem, If your capable you could get a good set of jumper leads and attach them straight on the motor, ie on the connections on starter motor, but be careful and you will need someone to help.
Doing this will eliminate your battery cables.

[docaster]

If the starter engages solid it could be the contacts in the solenoid dirty, and if your careful you can eliminate that with jumper leads as well.

[Gon Fishun]

Thanks noelm. Should have elaborated a little more.

Tested using 3 known good batteries. Wiring is all in very good condition. Re terminated at the battery to be sure.

Felt the cables at both ends and they seem normal to the touch.
But the housing of the starter is stupid hot.

Did a test on the solenoid without the starter connected.
12.5v on +VE side. 0v with key off. 12.5v with key on.

Need some testing options for this starter motor.

I removed it from the and space it away from engaging.
With a no load spinning arrangement I read 8.6v at the starter motor terminals. But with the flywheel engaged it will drop to 4.3v.

Do these older carb models have a high level of starting compression? Causing a large CCA battery?






Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

As Noelm said about Yammy starter motors. Would this be the problem?

[Rip it up]

Thanks Docaster.

Never thought of bypassing the switch and boat wiring. I might jury rig something tomorrow to test it.

Is there a resistance or multimeter type setup I can test the stationary starter motor?


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[DAVE_S]

Remove the starter and clean all the black carbon built up around the brushes , also check the brushes for wear and make sure there sliding in the holder . If the brushes are warn out a good auto elec can replace the brushes , just did a f80 yamaha starter having the same problem .

[Rip it up]

THANK YOU DAVE!
Perfect information. Knew that someone would have played with these starter motors.

So a simple strip down and assessment can be done without damage to the unit? They are a serviceable item not a throw away part I guess.

So I'll take it apart tommorow and check brushes.

What product can I use to clean inside the housing?
Carb cleaner
Shellite
Or a speciality contact cleaner?

Obviously dry all cleaning products from armature prior to re assembly.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[DAVE_S]

THANK YOU DAVE!
Perfect information. Knew that someone would have played with these starter motors.

So a simple strip down and assessment can be done without damage to the unit? They are a serviceable item not a throw away part I guess.

So I'll take it apart tommorow and check brushes.

What product can I use to clean inside the housing?
Carb cleaner
Shellite
Or a speciality contact cleaner?

Obviously dry all cleaning products from armature prior to re assembly.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

I just used turps to clean the bulk of it and then metho to finish of . They are a throw away item thats why i just replaced the brushes , i'am old school . When you remove it you will see the brand and model google it for parts .

[Dignity]

There's a can of throttle body cleaner on your bench that will do the job

[Rip it up]

So to update.

Starter motor was crystal clean. Possibly a newly replaced item. ARCO unit.
Definately not the issue.

Went back over all the connection from battery to motor. No loose ones.

Did the jumper leads directly onto unit. BAM. Straight into life.

Hmm ok. Retrace step.

Jumpers onto battery. Slow crank speed, slowing to a stop.

So I've come to this conclusion. The twin core 10mm squared wire running the 3m from isolator to the outboard are not allowing enough current to pass. Voltage is dropping and not allowing starter to gain the rpm needed to start the 80.

Whilst never an issue with the newer EFI 60hp. It's definately not enough for a 80.

Any help with a correct cable size.

Will be buying at 9am.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/06/5a5b46976b762e3564d219d6b893c98f.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/06/55d56971b61f4bda450dd5895f413646.jpg


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Rip it up]

Thanks dignity. It was used to clean the very minimal carbon throw off on the starter brush end cap.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Fed]

I removed it from the and space it away from engaging.
With a no load spinning arrangement I read 8.6v at the starter motor terminals. But with the flywheel engaged it will drop to 4.3v.
The one thing you missed was testing the voltage at the battery posts while cranking the motor over, I'd test it properly before cracking open the starter.

Don't crank for prolonged periods without giving the starter time to cool, each test should only take a couple of seconds cranking.

Edit, we cross posted RIP.

[Rip it up]

Hey fed. It was tested at the battery whilst cranking. Approx 9.5v.
Sounder was displaying similar voltage. So was using that most times.

Bulk voltage drop from battery to outboard I believe is the number one issue here. Too small of cables.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Fed]

9.5 Volts at battery while cranking is OK.
4.? Volts at starter while cranking means a high resistance between battery & Starter.

Test various points along the way while cranking to find where the problem is... it should only take 5 minutes in total.

99% probability it's a connection not a cable.

[Rip it up]

Hey fed,
Is a pair of 10mm2 cables big enough?


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Fed]

Voltage at the starter is 12.5v. So acceptable.
But when the key is hit it drops as low as 9v.
If you had said battery instead of starter & it I would have posted yesterday & saved you a lot of hassle.

[Fed]

Is a pair of 10mm2 cables big enough?
I assume it used to work with the existing cables and anyway slightly undersized cables will not pull the starter voltage down to 4 volts.

[Rip it up]

So that 12.5v reading was on a static reading across the main lead terminals on the motor.

So voltage was getting there but not the current needed.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Fed]

Testing voltage without load has no meaning, you need to test it under load.

Short bursts only giving the starter time to cool.

[Rip it up]

The only terminations is at each ends of the 10mm2. Both are nuts/spring washers locked down onto studs. These studs are then fed back to the battery with heavy 40mm2 cable onto stud posts/nuts etc.

All of these got a clean and retensioned.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[Fed]

You should have something like the following picture & you should be testing at...
9, 10, 11, 6, 7, & 8. Plus the grounding of the starter motor.

[Fed]

9-10 = 9.5V
9-11 =
9- Starter frame =
6- starter frame =
7- Starter frame =
8- Starter frame = 4.5V

Fill in the gaps.

[Fed]

Your solenoid may be an integral part of the starter with difficult access to points 7 & 8 and could mean you got your 4.5 V reading from point 6.
If that's the case then the problem is before point 6.

[Rip it up]

Update for those who commented. A fresh pair of #2 AWG tinned cables 5.5m long were installed this morning for an immediate good result.

Far to early to check the new voltage drop. But instant starting on a carby engine, means I'm a happy skipper again.

Now time for some sleep before hitting the water today for a good water testing session. Motor height, foils and weight sensitivity will be large factors on the drawing board.

Thanks for the input guys.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.

[docaster]

Hence the test with jumper leads. So what did you find with the old ones? And that is why just because you clean the lug to battery connection doesn't eliminate a bad cable to lug connections.
Good to see you got tinned cables Damo, but i don't rely on those squashed lugs but use proper 240 volt lugs crimped, soldered and water proof heat shrink.
Good to see you got it sorted.

[Rip it up]

Docaster the lugs were terminated by my HV electricians at work. 4000kg hydraulic crimpers should create a perfect connection.

Yes this tinned cable has resolved the starting issue completely. For a carby engine I'm very happy with its starting ease now.

My next mission is to find out why I'm getting 15.7v charge at 5500rpm.

Thanks for the input everyone. It would seem some motor just like heavier cables.


Damo's dodgy boat building factory.