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View Full Version : Aussie Outboards...is it possible ?



deckie
24-06-2014, 12:20 AM
Ignore that immediate thought you have of "No way Not possible" for a moment and lets try to figure out if it is even remotely possible.
Afterall, with the prices we already pay for the imported product as a comparison then perhaps it might be a remote possibility. It is already priced up there in equivalence with buying a rolls royce if it was the entire car.

Yes we're all very cynical about our capacity to manufacture in this country...we also know the inherent issues with labour costs/taxes etc etc
BUT
Surely its not that difficult nor prohibitively expensive to downsize and retool a Holden/Ford manufacturing facility that already produces a similar product, with everything from gearboxes to spare parts infrastructure at the ready.
Surely, if we can make a 308 cheaply enough then we can wrap one up in some ceramic, stainless and plastic then add a prop and get them to market...and at a price that is still likely far cheaper than what we already pay regardless of our high labour costs.

Its not rocket science...they are simply motors. The design/engineering isnt exactly difficult either. These days you can simply do what the Chinese have always done and buy a successful one, copy it, change a few bits and pieces, then rebrand and flog them. Half the manufacturing done in this country is based on the same principle.

Can always get half made in China like the rest of them do.
Would you support the industry if the numbers did add up ?

Its not as though we would be competing against something cheap...we know we cant do that..so whats wrong with having a look at something we already pay thru the nose for ?

Afterall...the problem with the car industry has been competing on price with the imported product being cheap...however its the exact opposite with the marine outboard marketplace...the only thing on the market is priced at ridiculously high levels.

If a 300hp Jap 4stk costs say $8K to manufacture, it will end up costing us >$30K to purchase. If it cost $13K to produce the commodore 300hp aussie equivalent in Aust, we can still sell it for $25K and make good money. Unlike the car industry there are potential margins that you can drive a truck thru.

aussiebasser
24-06-2014, 06:35 AM
In manufacturing, cost reduction comes from number of units produced. Do you think the market in Australia is large enough to allow for economic manufacture when compared to the market in the rest of the world? How many 300hp 4 strokes are sold each week in Australia? Would that number cover the immense cost of proper moulds and dies for production? Would you set up CNC machines to make the gears for one month's production based on Australia's usage? How many plastic cowlings would you make at a time from the very expensive mould you had to have made?

bluefin59
24-06-2014, 07:04 AM
In principle it would be possible as we have some of the most inventive people in the world here, we have all the resources as in minerals to make everything . I think you need a group and not a large one that can put all this together and have a bigger aim than just the Aussie market , if you can get 1-2% of a world market I would imagine that alone would sustain you until your product took of as in sales. Australia over the year have come up with a lot of great inventive ideas that have either been bought up by overseas interests or hidden forever such as the Sarich orbital engine that ford bought and has never bought to market that I know of . Your idea has great merit but your greatest problem in this country at the moment is the nay Sayers who say everything is too expensive to do it here and the constant lack of CUSTOMER service in most aspects of business .

The idea would be fantastic and I would certainly love to be part of such an inventive idea , whether it research and development down to loading the motors on a truck and sending them to an end user I would find something like this a great idea . Like your thought process and from small ideas big things have happened in the past , the biggest problem I see are those that say its impossible ...Matt

Spaniard_King
24-06-2014, 07:50 AM
So who has the 200-300 mil to R&D the engine or are you just going to steal someone elses design? How many failures will you incorporate into the R&D process?

I may be short on the 2-300mil too :)

Unfortunately we aren't china and there are many laws in this country to stop cloning someone elses brand/idea

peterbo3
24-06-2014, 08:19 AM
Many years ago Johnson used to assemble their smaller engines (up to 40HP?) in Sydney. I am not sure if there were any local parts used. I cannot see any marine engine maker moving down here again & a start up brand is just too costly.

Funchy
24-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Would love to see it personally ..........

A considerable risk would be that if one actually kicked off it may quickly be killed off by the manufacturers and importers engaging in a price war to drive the venture to bankruptcy only to jack the prices back up?

myusernam
24-06-2014, 09:38 AM
Well its not possible with cars so I think its fair to say an emphatic no

Moonlighter
24-06-2014, 09:51 AM
I agree. The name of the game in this space is

1. Leveraging off your existing capabilities and facilities and designs and networks, including oarts and dealers. Which is why the Japanese manufacturers have such a big advantage over the rest, they can use/adapt automotive designs and facilities and parts very easily to make outboards, and then distribute them via dealer structures that already exist if they choose to. Management structures already in place as well.

2. Volumes. Volumes. Volumes. That is what killed Australian car manufacturing, the primary reason by far. You invest $2-300 million in a facility, tooling, equipment, and designs these days, and to make it viable, you need it to be punching out product 3 shifts per day, 7 days per week, 365 days per year. Plant utilisation rates must be near 90%.

You would have to have an export program to justify the numbers involved in that. Which means competing against the established players who are all bigger, established and represented in the market.

What would be the point of differentiation?

its a nice idea, but impossible.

scottar
24-06-2014, 10:11 AM
So who has the 200-300 mil to R&D the engine or are you just going to steal someone elses design? How many failures will you incorporate into the R&D process?

I may be short on the 2-300mil too :)

Unfortunately we aren't china and there are many laws in this country to stop cloning someone elses brand/idea


I think from memory the Commodore was a 600 million dollar project when the last major platform change happened so I think your suspicion of being short may be right.

As a manufacturer in Australia only, producing only one product line and competing against multinationals who have supplimentary product lines to offset costs if a price war was to errupt I fear you may face a difficult, uphill battle. Take a look at the Qantas / Virgin thing going on. Then you have to remember your limited market and the fact that unless you want to limit your market further you have to produce not one motor, but about 6 or 8 to cover a reasonable range of horsepower requirements.

The only way we may remotely have a chance of this occuring would be in the mould of the Seven Marine product. A niche product that you can charge accordingly for because no one else has one. The tricky bit is finding your niche.

deckie
24-06-2014, 12:13 PM
Big difference between supoorting unprofitable businesses such as car manufacturing...and sponsoring start ups. Govts like startups and politically it would be a good look. They are simply not in the mood to pump good money after bad into proven unprofitable businesses.

Obviously we arnt talking about big volume sales and firing up the full monty. Baby steps...manufacturing to demand with skeleton overheads to start...knowing that there is a significant price differential already in place.

You couldnt do it from scratch...but the infrastructure is largely already in place, as well as the specialist engineering, spares, support etc.

Dont think of it being as competing with any of the other manufacturers, because even with our labour costs/taxes/red tape and other costs we still have a massive competitive advantage already. The margins are that big surely.

Anyone know roughly how many outboards are sold Aust wide each year ?

Only throwing it out there...there are always 1000 reasons NOT to do anything. Easy to fob it off...but its one of the few things i can think of where we would actually have an immediate advantage...and with the infrastructure and ancillary businesses needing to be retooled but already in place. Thats the expensive part half covered to begin with. Designing a 4stk motor from scratch isnt exactly rocket science, especially when u can purchase the rights to a design for a set timeframe.

It may be illegal to copy like the Chinese do...but its not illegal to purchase designs off the Chinese...its not our business how they got them.

chocolatemoose
24-06-2014, 12:44 PM
i think more of a tech nieche market has a better case. say light weight small diesel outboards.

aussiebasser
24-06-2014, 12:59 PM
Big difference between supoorting unprofitable businesses such as car manufacturing...and sponsoring start ups. Govts like startups and politically it would be a good look. They are simply not in the mood to pump good money after bad into proven unprofitable businesses.

Obviously we arnt talking about big volume sales and firing up the full monty. Baby steps...manufacturing to demand with skeleton overheads to start...knowing that there is a significant price differential already in place.

You couldnt do it from scratch...but the infrastructure is largely already in place, as well as the specialist engineering, spares, support etc.

Dont think of it being as competing with any of the other manufacturers, because even with our labour costs/taxes/red tape and other costs we still have a massive competitive advantage already. The margins are that big surely.

Anyone know roughly how many outboards are sold Aust wide each year ?

Only throwing it out there...there are always 1000 reasons NOT to do anything. Easy to fob it off...but its one of the few things i can think of where we would actually have an immediate advantage...and with the infrastructure and ancillary businesses needing to be retooled but already in place. Thats the expensive part half covered to begin with. Designing a 4stk motor from scratch isnt exactly rocket science, especially when u can purchase the rights to a design for a set timeframe.

It may be illegal to copy like the Chinese do...but its not illegal to purchase designs off the Chinese...its not our business how they got them.

So, now you want to purchase a design from the Chinese, which is probably a pirated obsolete motor from one of the established players, produce it in low volumes in a known high production cost environment and sell it into an uncontrolled market where half the potential buyers are looking at purchasing overseas anyway. You also hope to sell this product up against the exact same product which is manufactured in China, a known low cost manufacturing country, and you want the tax-payer to fund your start up costs.
Sorry, you haven't got a snow ball's chance in hell of making it happen.

Moonlighter
24-06-2014, 01:38 PM
I agree with the moose. You would need to find a niche and then figure out a way to keep it to yourself. The idea of a small, lightweight diesel outboard is the kind of thinking that you would need. Not saying that this is the answer, just saying it is the kind of concept you would need to develop if you wanted to be a chance of succeeding.

Even then, as soon as you release something like that onto the market, you would have to think that the likes of Yamaha, Suzuki, Mercury or Honda wouldnt be far behind you...... Let alone the Chinese. You would have to partner with a big "transom producer" like Telewater or the Haines Group to get your product onto boats and into dealer showrooms.

Stuart
24-06-2014, 02:27 PM
Cost to manufacture in Australia is prohibitively high. Orbital technology was an Australian design, and as such, found its way into several outboard brands. Cost to R/D as Garry said above would be well over $300 million, even if you used existing technology left over by Holden and Ford. Labour rates are so high, production so low, I think if you wanted to make $1 billion dollars, you should begin with $2 billion. In fact you would be better off producing small runs of CNC machines parts, even use other manufacturers parts and make it a high tec hybrid. That would be the only feasible way I can see. There are companies in Australia that make engines, both 2 stroke and 4 stroke, cars, bikes, planes, helicopters. If you were to do it, then you would need a marketing budget from hell. To make it work, you would need to sell to a global market.

chocolatemoose
24-06-2014, 03:09 PM
if you keep volume low and demand high and a good alterntive to something else you might have a case. 7 marine with the 557 outboard is a good example. even though the US market is huge. they took something made it into something else that will be in high demand.. and is an alternative.

a small 1.7lt VG turbo diesel producing 150hp. weighing around the same as a 4 stroke. with all the good stuff. common rail. direct injected. fly by wire. if you could sell it for 18-22 grand a pop. you would be onto a winner.

chocolatemoose
24-06-2014, 03:12 PM
well might of already been done
http://articles.maritimepropulsion.com/article/New-300hp-(224-kW)-Diesel-Outboard29225.aspx

ozynorts
24-06-2014, 06:30 PM
300hp with a weight of 135kg... Wow. Wow. If it gets anywhere near regular diesel consumption that is a truly a game changer in outboards.

chocolatemoose
24-06-2014, 07:27 PM
bit nervous about the 4 cylinder 8 piston configuration

deckie
24-06-2014, 08:06 PM
well might of already been done
http://articles.maritimepropulsion.com/article/New-300hp-(224-kW)-Diesel-Outboard29225.aspx
Yeah i agree...what ozy said ..wow.
Vision.

scottar
24-06-2014, 08:51 PM
That will throw a rather large pussycat among the pigeons if it comes off.

Stuart
25-06-2014, 09:46 AM
I find it hard to believe that a 300hp diesel outboard could weigh 135kg, I would love to be wrong though. It would do a fair bit of damage to the 4 banger market.

aussiebasser
25-06-2014, 09:59 AM
bit nervous about the 4 cylinder 8 piston configuration

People of my vintage should remember the Commer Knocker. 2 piston per cylinder 2 stroke diesel. It wasn't really successful. If a light weight, efficient diesel outboard was easy to design and manufacture and able to be sold at a viable price, don't you think Mercury, BRP, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki or Tohatsu would have done it by now. Mercury must have spent billions on it, they were working on it during the '70's.

Stuart
25-06-2014, 12:12 PM
Just because a large company hasn't thought of or worked on something, mean it cant be done. Often its a guy in the back shed that has a great idea, then works for months or even years to develop a working prototype. I cant figure out why marine engine companies haven't developed the technology whether add on to existing engines or incorporated into new models to run on LPG.

aussiebasser
25-06-2014, 12:36 PM
I cant figure out why marine engine companies haven't developed the technology whether add on to existing engines or incorporated into new models to run on LPG.
They had it all worked out, then found out that boats don't have number plates so there was nowhere to stick the little red diamond sticker. Yet again, a good idea foiled by red tape. (Well, red sticker in this case.)

oh, http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?68144-LPG-conversion-all-outboard-engines-why-how