Should he pay for his rescue ?

[deckie]

Been a bit of talk about "user pays" lately so this one making news in Coffs might be contentious.

Solo yachtsman sent a pan pan and later activated epirb late on Sat night after leaving Port Stephens for NZ.
55ft Ketch, 200 NM off Port Stephens, Reported rigging problems and an engine that wouldnt start. Seas Heavy.
Helicopter dispatched from Pt Stephens.
Water Police Boat dispatched Pt Stephens.
Aircraft dispatched from Melbourne
Found by Aircraft middle of Sat night. Dropped Liferaft and Comms. One on board after initial report of two on board.
Water Police vessel hooked him up and towed to Coffs Harbour arriving pre dawn.

Both masts intact, apparently healed 45deg in wind gusts and fired up engine and started smouldering/failed.
Seems the skipper is not very experienced.

What would you do ?...thats a lot of resources and good on them for doing a great job.
No problem with it ?.. or would you want to send a message by attaching a few invoices to the helm before he sets off for home (or to NZ again) ?
Steve

[tunaticer]

I would hesitate in billing him instantly.
I think Authorities should investigate the boat's state and assess whether the ship was ok to set sail prior to it's demise. If the engine was in poor repair then he should recieve an invoice for some of the recovery costs. If the engine's demise was due to some form of actual unforseen failure then it could be deemed an honest claim for assistance.

[Mike Delisser]

Agree it' a difficult one. Problem is where do they draw the line, there's a lot of grey area. I recon either charge everyone or charge no one.
I recall those 2 solo sailors rescued by our navy in the far southern oceans in extremely rough and freezing conditions, Tony Bullymore? and a French guy. It cost our Gov a packet, but at the same time it pushed our Navy vessel and it's crew to the limit. The navy said it was the sort of experience they could never get in training exercises. Bullymore went and sold his story to Channel 7, (and ended up getting rescued again a few years later). The French guy went away and learnt English, then returned to Australia to personally thank our Government and the crew who saved him. Neither were charged a cent for there rescues.

BTW how much has this search for the missing Malaysian plane cost our Gov? I've been out of the country for the last couple of months and it wasn't covered much in the news after the 1st couple of weeks but I thought I heard they've worked out it's probably is nowhere near Australia, is that right?

[Noelm]

No, everyone deserves to be rescued, regardless of how silly or ill prepared you might be

[fisho64]

No, everyone deserves to be rescued, regardless of how silly or ill prepared you might be
agree 100%
part of our society like it or not.
Do not charge him for or even refer to rescue cost, instead if he did something illegal such as faulty or missing safety gear etc then fine him for that.
Rescue of life at sea is and should always be free.
HOWEVER-recovery of the vessel isnt and never has been.
The cost of this can be claimed from either the insurance company or owner but should be stated beforehand or done as with commercial where the captains agree to "Lloyds Open Form" over the radio.
Vessel is recovered (no cure no pay) then a Board is convened in Lloyds of London to consider cost, risk etc and set a payment figure for the recsuers

[Dreadz]

No, everyone deserves to be rescued, regardless of how silly or ill prepared you might be

i agree that everyone is entitled to assistance but should we be liable for some of the cost? I know I would put my hand in my pocket to show my appreciation for being rescued.

[fisho64]

"liable" and "showing your appreciation" are two totally different things
When you get caught speeding and have to pay, thats not "showing your appreciation" (well maybe with gritted teeth)

[sea-rash]

"liable" and "showing your appreciation" are two totally different things
When you get caught speeding and have to pay, thats not "showing your appreciation" (well maybe with gritted teeth)

Fair call, only difference you are not being rescued from anything.

Rash

[Jsmfun]

BTW how much has this search for the missing Malaysian plane cost our Gov? I've been out of the country for the last couple of months and it wasn't covered much in the news after the 1st couple of weeks but I thought I heard they've worked out it's probably is nowhere near Australia, is that right?[/QUOTE]


I think we should be sending a bill to a company and a country at least for half the costs IMO . In regards to paying I think anybody is entitled to be rescued but if you have no common sense and leave knowing conditions and or vessel is not looking good or in good working order you should be paying. My situation ran out of fuel (no fluid level sensor)was only 8km offshore but I was glad to see the coast guard I was expecting to pay $500-$1000 for the rescue was only $150 but that was my stupidity why should all other taxpayers and boaters pay for my silly mistake. But if there is a unfortunate accident or rouge wave breakdown on regularly serviced vessel then it needs to be assessed case buy case IMO

[RayLamp]

1. No one yet has answered like this.
2. Why not? :D

[sharkymark2]

I think there should be a fine that reflects the severity and cost of his rescue. 1 person on a 50' yacht? He could have put a sea anchor out till conditions sorted themselves out and then got himself together.

[deckie]

I guess most would agree that $ should never be a factor in safety at sea...there is an inherent obligation and it shouldnt be screwed with for $ reasons.

The question though is more about what happens afterwards if it is found that the skipper has very little capacity to operate such a vessel...especially solo. There is also the reality that rescue services must themselves put their lives in danger.

Perhaps it is more akin to a question of negligent or culpable driving after an accident.
What if AMSA for instance discover the skipper has very limited capability or knowledge of his own vessel ?
2 choppers, 2 boats, 1 aircraft all operating in hazardous conditions.
The water police guys left Pt Stephens and Coffs in 6-7m seas and all 3 aircraft were operating in poor conditions that meant a total reliance upon the mechanical integrity of their aircraft just to stay alive themselves. Whilst they accept and embrace that responsibility we must not forget they have families too.
Nothing new about the dilemma facing marine rescues...that part i doubt anyone has an issue with.
More about the question of culpability of skippers i suppose.
Do the water police automatically conduct inquiries into the skipper with any particular view to recovery ? Hopefully its not an expensive long process every time there is a rescue.
What would you say for instance if he cant even display sound operating knowledge of his vessel ?

[Noelm]

so then, the age old question, how do you get experience without actually "doing it"

[gr hilly]

Years past i was involved in a air sea rescue, each weekend for some 7 or 8 yrs it was my opinion that even people that had problems and needed a tow back to a ramp in allot of cases should pay i got sick of towing some people say from the pin to carbrook ramp because they ran out of fuel and this was a common thing for the same people we were working off donations only i stood at traffic lights to raise doe only to see some people abuse the air sea rescue some did have to have genuine help but one hell of a lot did not and not even a donation given some people should be charged.
Hilly

[FisHard]

I was on a boat up off cairns last year that developed an issue that required a couple of new batteries courtesy of the local VMR. They were happy to do it, but made it crystal clear they were expecting a solid donation above the cost of the batteries.
Of course we obliged, and every one seemed happy with the figure we came up with.

[deckie]

so then, the age old question, how do you get experience without actually "doing it"
Thats not such a difficult question...we all went thru a process of handling our own craft, gaining confidence and knowing its limitations BEFORE we presume to venture into more dangerous/risky waters.
There is no set time line for this of course...no particular amount of hours logged at any point other than someone trying to get their license for the first time these days.
A large part of safety at sea is basic common sense...however knowing your own vessel is surely a prerequisite. Its as basic as knowing how much fuel you need, or carrying a spare main, knowing how to reef it solo etc etc...but it all becomes heightened when you put to sea on a mission to cross an ocean...SOLO.

I wont presume to think this particular bloke wasnt capable..might have been just a frustrated person that made a comment about his capabilites...BUT it simply begs the question what if he was asked a question about starting his engine and he didnt even know how he should sniff/blow the bilge, or how to check battery charge ? What if we found out his mainsail tore and he didnt know how to hoist a new one or use the foresail...you know what i'm saying yeah ?

We know 99 % of guys would know and learn their boats, check weather etc etc etc before attempting to fish a canyon at night that is say 25NM out to sea...but the guys that get rescued are often not just the unfortunate mech failures..shit happens to all of us.... but what about the 1% that ignore everything and just go ahead regardless. Brand new boat..."lets go".

Seems to me this is a very serious mission he was on...solo to NZ. Surely for THAT he should have an intimate knowledge of his vessel and emergency procedures. Question is ..what if he didnt ?...would you want him to not do it again until he knew what he was doing ? and maybe also send a message to others ?

[Dignity]

Fair call, only difference you are not being rescued from anything.

Rash
Other than saving your life or some one elses, I think that would be considered being rescued.

[Noelm]

OK, deckie, that being said, lets just hark back to Jessica Watson, all the back up and gear in the world, an extremely well prepared boat, planning on sailing solo around the world, plenty of experience... the first attempt, she barely made it out of port and needed help, so how did experience help in that case? Experience is NOT going to stop problems, they just happen. Now whether you call for help, activate your EPIRP (if it was appropriate) and lets not start that old topic again! or you get your self out of the poo, its all relevant to what you have at hand, some things you can fix with cable ties and rope, other things, a full on shore workshop will take time to rectify.

[Stuart]

Stinger missile would have solved all his worldly issues.

[deckie]

OK, deckie, that being said, lets just hark back to Jessica Watson, all the back up and gear in the world, an extremely well prepared boat, planning on sailing solo around the world, plenty of experience... the first attempt, she barely made it out of port and needed help, so how did experience help in that case? Experience is NOT going to stop problems, they just happen. Now whether you call for help, activate your EPIRP (if it was appropriate) and lets not start that old topic again! or you get your self out of the poo, its all relevant to what you have at hand, some things you can fix with cable ties and rope, other things, a full on shore workshop will take time to rectify.
Yesss...agreed. But hey noone i know says shit doesnt happen.
Noone has ever spoken about not rescuing anyone....but reading Jessica Watson's book doesnt mean you should now feel qualified to head solo for NZ either. But i'm sure some people might get that feeling. As i said its the 1% eklement. They are the types that frustrate rescue services, not the Jessica Watsons.
So i'm unsure what you're getting at.
Are u saying that you think even the inexperienced newbies should not be accountable for suddenly embarking on what most would see as an extremely challenging and risky voyage alone ?

[LittleSkipper]

And if someone is involved in a car accident should they be made to pay for their rescue? Go figure!


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[tjotter]

re how much for MH370 search.
$90mill
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/05/australia-to-spend-almost-90-million-on-mh370-search/
that is the budget until June 20105,
& that does not seem to include Malaysia, China, USA etc.

[tjotter]

re paying for rescues:
is there a difference between rescuing someone once & someone, eg Tony Bullimore, repeatedly asking for rescue.

[stevemid]

Similarities to Jess Watson abound, see below.


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[docaster]

We have to pay for fuel if rescued in mackay, double if your not a member.
It should be like having liability innsurance ie. proof of coverage when you renew your boat rego.
Jessica Watson had innsurance cover for rescue.

[docaster]

My club marine covers rescue. Thank goodness i have never had to be rescued yet except my very first trip about 40 years agoe when we run out of fuel and managed to hail down another boaty for some fuel. (found out 2 strokes dam thirsty buggers).

[stevemid]

Speaking of Jessica Watson's rescue....in terms of preparedness etc. Another S&S34 sailor, a mate of mine, had to be winched off his S&S in June 2112. Alan had completed 13 Sydney Hobarts and over 20, I believe, Gosford Lord Howe crossings. He left Lake Macquarie headed north for the winter. In rough southerly weather, off Cape Byron, engine wouldnt start, batteries flat, boat taking on water, 12M swells. Had to be winched off by helo. His experience level diametrically opposite Jessica Watson's; probably his support and boat prep too since I know he didn't' have nearly the financial assets backing Watson. Same boat, quite different situations.

I think we rescue people regardless of their situation because we can so easily put ourselves in their position: laying in the bottom of the boat, shit scared, helpless against the sea no matter how well prepared we might have been.

[fisho64]

We have to pay for fuel if rescued in mackay, double if your not a member.
It should be like having liability innsurance ie. proof of coverage when you renew your boat rego.
Jessica Watson had insurance cover for rescue.

No mate, you are confused with the concepts of rescue here.

If anyone asks you to pay fuel before they rescue you if your life is in danger, they are committing a criminal offence unless THEY themselves reasonably believe it to be a danger to do so.
Just like if someone is dying of thirst in the desert, you cannot say "heres a bottle of water mate, that'll be $5000".
Its called "failing to provide the necessities of life"

Your boat however does not need its life saved, and nobody is obliged to do that, just as Tony Bullimore, the French guy, Jessica Watson etc.

[LittleSkipper]

No mate, you are confused with the concepts of rescue here.

If anyone asks you to pay fuel before they rescue you if your life is in danger, they are committing a criminal offence unless THEY themselves reasonably believe it to be a danger to do so.
Just like if someone is dying of thirst in the desert, you cannot say "heres a bottle of water mate, that'll be $5000".
Its called "failing to provide the necessities of life"

Your boat however does not need its life saved, and nobody is obliged to do that, just as Tony Bullimore, the French guy, Jessica Watson etc.

I'd also like to add it can also be called 'A Duty of Care'


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[stevej]

beware of what your asking for

the government could easily increase our licence or registration fees to cover rescues
or bring in a greenslip style thing for registrations
in cars we all pay for others mistakes or issues via greenslips


storm in a teacup, the cost would be negligable.
the people are already working the ships helicopters boats are on maintenance schedules whether they are used or not
its just a bit of fuel and possible risk to the crew

[gr hilly]

only at one time did i get cranky on rescue duty that was when we had to tow a boat 15 klms from Jacobs Well putting them in tow at the power lines and when we got to the carbrook boat ramp to drop them off a boat flipped in the pin bar and had kids on board we would normally make it in 4 or 5 mins not 17 like it did take.
Hilly.

[LittleSkipper]

only at one time did i get cranky on rescue duty that was when we had to tow a boat 15 klms from Jacobs Well putting them in tow at the power lines and when we got to the carbrook boat ramp to drop them off a boat flipped in the pin bar and had kids on board we would normally make it in 4 or 5 mins not 17 like it did take.
Hilly.

And what is the moral of the story? You can't be in two places at once? Or can you? Did you organise for another rescue boat?


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[stevemid]

I say rescue EVERYONE regardless of situation.

In the category of "walk a mile in my shoes" I'd have to say there's a big difference between sailors and power boaters. Power boaters wait for decent weather, dash out at 30 mph and dash back it if it gets rough. Sailors for racing or adventure head off for very distant destinations at 5-6mph. Notwithstanding weather routing, they have to take what the sea and the weather gods dish up.

If we start defining or limiting the word "Rescue" we'll soon have the word "tragedy" to deal with. We all know how quickly even little things can go pear shaped.

Costs? Well "user pays" is quickly becoming a fact of life. In reality it is just a different taxation model - or rather another layer. So I wouldn't be surprised to see rescue costs billed back to the user. In fact it makes sense for insurance to be the way to spread the risk, rather than taxing everyone for the service.

IMO,

Steve

[Marlin_Mike]

Read up on SOLAS. Australia is a signatory to it. That is why we save people at sea for whatever reason.

Plus its the right thing to do, cost can be discussed after the rescuing is done and the people are safe.

Cheers

[gr hilly]

and what is the moral of the story? You can't be in two places at once? Or can you? Did you organise for another rescue boat?


Sent from my ipad using tapatalk 19 82 no the the closest one was the brisbane river at heavens deakan
kangaroo point on another out of fuel if you run out of fuel you should pay to get towed by vmr or water police any other reason is diff that is te moral of my story and people would not chance there fuel use as often it was normaly the same few people who ran out to.

[fisho64]

out of fuel if you run out of fuel you should pay to get towed by vmr or water police .

running out of fuel is neither an "emergency or rescue" situation. It can become a contributing factor to one though, just as a faulty gps at night to someone who cannot navigate or read a chart.
Running out of fuel then in danger of drifting on rocks is life threatening and requires rescue of lives without any request for costs.
Providing them with fuel or a tow before that situations looks imminent/possible is just assistance requested.

[docaster]

That's the thing it can be a fine line between assistance and an emergency on the water. Weather can turn nasty at the drop of a hat. We have to register epirbs, so it wouldn't take much to have proof of innsurance.

[deckie]

I say rescue EVERYONE regardless of situation.



Read up on SOLAS. Australia is a signatory to it. That is why we save people at sea for whatever reason.
Plus its the right thing to do, cost can be discussed after the rescuing is done and the people are safe.
Cheers
Just to clarify...i dont think there's anyone that believes we should consider selective rescuing. Not only is it immoral but also against many laws both domestic and international.
Lets face it...if it was Bob Brown and Pauline Hansen hoping to heighten a sexual encounter by heading east 200NM out to sea in a 12 ft tinnie, we'd still try to rescue them (i assume).

All this thread is meant to be is a discussion about the aftermath IFFFF it is discovered the skipper is either totally unfamiliar with his craft, or has perhaps embarked on a journey that is both unrealistic or totally beyond common sense...i.e. without thought has placed not just himself at risk but those with a responsibility to go get them.
I havent followed the story up to find out, but it was a reaction to the initial reports that this particular guy had very little idea of how to operate a 55ft ketch and unprepared for a solo trip to NZ. Perhaps first reports were false i don't know.
Simple common sense dictates that to gain even a little experience of how seaworthy the craft is, or how to operate it single handed for such a trip, it should be easy enough to head to sea closer to port in all conditions.
I imagine there are also everything from attempted suicides to stolen craft where rescues become necessary.

Do we know if any inquiry after a rescue also determines if the owner/rescued is to bear any costs as well ??? Unsure if there is a formal process for challenging/risky rescues at sea.

Its only the question of cost recovery after a rescue (perhaps meant as a deterrent to stupidity)... if a skipper was found to be either inept, illegal, uncooperative, or willfully putting himself and rescue staff at unnecessary levels of risk.

[stevemid]

Deckie, understood. Well the volunteer rescue services have no mandate or the skills or resources to followup to determine competence. The Australian Maritime Safety Authority IS responsible for coordinating search and rescue and their Domestic Vessel Division is responsible for "managing national arrangements for compliance, breach investigation, enforcement and prosecution under the National Law" I suspect they only get involved in commercial carrier issues or in the event of loss of life. The water police also get involved in collisions and such but I'm not sure about jurisdictional bourndaries. Here's a link to what AMSA does: https://www.amsa.gov.au/about-amsa/organisational-structure/

Can anyone provide links to the original story?

[onerabbit]

Stinger missile would have solved all his worldly issues

.............................not just a stupid comment,
this is a contender for the "stupid comment of the year"

Muzz