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Seahorse
26-04-2014, 05:04 PM
I dont want a war here, just some sound advice.
i am looking at the new quintrex 420 wide body. One dealer has the yammy 40 stroke and the othe has the eyec 40 hp.

They are both very close in price, but just wondering what would be the best way if i decided to get this boat.

i like the yammy, had a yammy 50 4 stroke before.

the bloke who sells the etec, said his 40 would outpreform the 50 yammy.

please give me some advice, more so on the etec.


thanku
greg

Still_Dreamin
26-04-2014, 05:13 PM
I have a 90hp etec on 5.5m fibreglass and it goes like a dream. However one day when i was bored rang around to see what I would get as a trade. Honda dealer, Yamaha dealer both told me sell privately as they didn't want an etec trade. Suzuki offered me 4000 my engine which was one year old with 40 hrs on it.
So if resale is a big concern for you I would go the Yamaha.
me I plan to own this one until either it dies or I do so very happy with my etec.

Seahorse
26-04-2014, 05:22 PM
Thanks for the honest remarks. Yeah hopefully i will to. But why do other dealers take that attitude. I always was a doubting thomas about this 300 hr service thing but at the end of the day they are still an evinrude which has been around forever.
oh well looks like some decisions to make

cheers
greg

SHOOTER1
26-04-2014, 05:32 PM
Forget the 300hrs service thing on the Etec really only applies if used in freshwater. Resale is the big issue.I bought a pakage with a 125 opti new asked the dealer for a changeover price for a 150 merc 4 stroke when the opti had less than 100 hrs (he was the only one ever to put a spanner on the opti) and they weren't really interested in taking the opt as a trade. Still I love the opti great motor just the 4 banger seems to have better resale.

Luke G
26-04-2014, 05:36 PM
If you ever want to sell it for decent coin in the future get the yammy

stevet
26-04-2014, 05:41 PM
I have neither of the engines and don't want to start typical fight that happens around e-tecs.

both will be very good engines with the proposed use of the engine being relevant to the decision in front of you.

The 300 hour service bit is for dealer service - you still do annual service stuff like removing props and greasing

I found this youtube of a skier being pulled with a 25 e-tec - taken on the Hawkesbury river

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOj3Vt6yjX8&feature=player_embedded

the tread it came from is here

http://www.etecownersgroup.com/post/an-interesting-comparison-6868358?pid=1282520150#post1282520150

good luck with the decision

statler

Seahorse
26-04-2014, 06:04 PM
Decisions decisions.
i get the resale bit. I thought the yammy would be a better resale, but hopfully will keep this one.

cheers everyone

greg

Knotpretty
26-04-2014, 06:34 PM
Local marine rescue towed another etec through the bar on Thursday. Had one never again. KP

Seahorse
26-04-2014, 06:45 PM
Thanks KP.
but i guess that could happen to anyone.

Darren Mc
26-04-2014, 06:49 PM
Local marine rescue towed another etec through the bar on Thursday. Had one never again. KP

I'm another one who had to be towed home by Brisbane coast guard. Never again for me too.
I was also offerred $2000 trade for a 150 with less than 150 hrs on it. It was just out of warranty.

Chimo
26-04-2014, 06:55 PM
Darren

Could you let us know what was it that went wrong with your Etec?
Was it not fixable or did you just lose faith in it?
Was you service man not up to it or what?

Thanks

Cheers
Chimo

Seahorse
26-04-2014, 07:47 PM
Think yammy is the way to go.

whatscracken
26-04-2014, 08:23 PM
Yamaha no doubt is the way to go mate. They tick everybox.

Every now and again you hear about an Etec still going strong but for every good one I reckon theres another 9 bad ones

Still_Dreamin
26-04-2014, 08:58 PM
I was at couran cove in the weekend and the water taxi was running a 200hp ETEC. See plenty of ETEC on pro boats as well.
On way back to Weinman ck saw vmr towing a boat with near new looking yamaha. I know a couple that volunteer at volunteer coast guard. He runs an ETEC on his personal vessel and in their experience all brands get towed equally.
300 hr no service is a bit of pr. Read the fine print, if it is used in salt water it has to be serviced annually.
A well known former member with his yamahardness had to return to 1770 due to low oil alarm(not saying.this is a fault of yamaha maybe the mechanic) but if it was an ETEC there would be no excuse. It would be all etecs are sh*t

Just sayin......

spelchek
26-04-2014, 11:06 PM
I think it all boils down to whether you like the smell of 2 stroke fumes or not. For me, 4 stroke is the only option as I can't stand the smell of 2 stroke after 5 minutes. Other than that and resale value, go for the motor from the dealer you trust the most.

Darren Mc
27-04-2014, 12:26 AM
Darren

Could you let us know what was it that went wrong with your Etec?
Was it not fixable or did you just lose faith in it?
Was you service man not up to it or what?

Thanks

Cheers
Chimo

Hi Chimo,
The first time it let me down was just out of weinam ck when an injector failed(open circuit).
Lucky it happend there, cause i was heading offshore through Jumpinpin.
I limped home that time ok but pissed off. Knocked my confidence a little , got over it.

Second time i got about 1km from the curtain artificial reef from Weinam creek and in an instant lost complete power, like someone just snuck up behind me and turned the key off.
Turns out the EMM fried itself. It was an internal failure.
That really pissed me off bigtime.
Long story short, got it fixed used it twice more reluctantly, then sold the boat.
Couldn't trust it anymore, worried that what was next and maybe third time unlucky in the bar or something.
Don't get me wrong i loved that motor when i first got it, went well and heaps of power. Just couldn't trust it anymore.
I now have a yamaha. Hope i have more luck with this one or i think i'll give it away altogether.
Cheer's.

overdraft
27-04-2014, 08:50 AM
What type of boat do you have now Darren.

Danny

boboncc
27-04-2014, 08:53 AM
I have neither Yamaha or Etec, interesting reading and then I notice the banner advert for Yamaha!

Seahorse
27-04-2014, 10:07 AM
This wasnt to be sh...t fight. I just wanted some honest opinions.

weighting it all up, i will go the Yammy

Tjankyou
greg

Darren Mc
27-04-2014, 10:26 AM
What type of boat do you have now Darren.

Danny

I've got a Baysport 585 at the moment.

tronna84
27-04-2014, 10:30 AM
Had a formosa centre console for 7 years with a etec 115hp it never missed a beat, next boat will be a cat and it will have etecs too..... :)

snakecatcher
27-04-2014, 10:55 AM
I am looking at a new boat and the options are either a Yamaha or a Etec - had bad reports on the Etec from a friend if a friend his motor needed some really expensive repairs just out of warranty so was leaning towards the Yamaha and this post has definitely tipped it that way.
I also found it very interesting that the 3 year no service policy only applies to fresh water - the boat dealer was trying to use this as a selling point to me despite telling him I rarely fish in fresh water and 99.9% of the boats use would be in saltwater. Now I wonder if I was being deliberately misled.

Seahorse
27-04-2014, 12:56 PM
Hey there Snakecatcher.
These forums are great. I always wanted a yammy but when u are trying to get the best deal from other dealers, they always have a different brand of motor, which then triggers, decisions decisions.
i am definately going yammy even if not on the particular boat iam looking at.

cheets
greg

snakecatcher
27-04-2014, 12:58 PM
Hi Greg,
i couldn't agree more - Yamaha for me

cheers

Scott Ashe
27-04-2014, 03:10 PM
My vote is for the Yamaha Greg. My 30 4 stroke is 5 years old now with 105hrs and I still love it as much now as the day I bought it.
Good luck.

Shawn 66
28-04-2014, 07:32 AM
G'Day Greg,
Have never owned an Etec , so can't comment on them .
My current yammie is a 40 4 stroke , about 3.5 years old with 550 hours on her . Absolutely love her .
In all fairness , she did sh!t herself on the Pine one day when she was six months old . Stuffed fuel filter from memory.
Shawn

Seahorse
28-04-2014, 08:23 PM
Hi shawn
how are u mate.yeah i think the 40hp will what i will end up with. I had a 50. 4 st yammy on last boat and loved it

cheets

hainsofast
29-04-2014, 08:15 AM
That is the problem with Etecs, great when they are running, but they have too many niggly issues, I have heard of so many problems with them. I am looking for a new boat now and wouldn't touch one with an Etec on it. I currently have a 2002 Yamaha saltwater series 2 outboard on the back of my boat, bought it second hand 3 years ago with 200 hrs on it, just ticked over 400 hours, it has never missed a beat, servicing is cheap, and it goes hard. My next motor will definantly be a yamaha or a mercury if I can't find a suitable boat with a yammie on it.

ozynorts
29-04-2014, 09:14 AM
I am looking for a new boat now.

You know the boat you need mate............ :)

hainsofast
29-04-2014, 09:30 AM
Yes it will either be a yalta or a haines 580 sf

ozynorts
29-04-2014, 09:50 AM
What size Yalta? 555 (2000) or 615 (2200)? 2 stroke or 4?

hainsofast
29-04-2014, 10:30 AM
whatever is around at the time, would prefer a haines 580 SF, don't care about engine, whatever a good second hand one comes with, a lot I have looked at have yammie 115's on them, so would probably put my 150 on it and the 115 on current boat then sell it.

robsue
29-04-2014, 11:16 AM
Greg i think bris Yamaha at Burpengary are quintrex, try them for a package deal if you don't already have a quote from them.
they were cheapest by $800 for my 70 4s

bannana
29-04-2014, 03:56 PM
After my experiences with Suzuki and their piss poor warranty and having multiple yamaha's and experienced their action on warranty and how they go about repairs is what impressed me the most and the reason I personally would stick with Yamaha. Don't get me wrong they all have their fair share of problems and I can only vouch for Yamaha's warranty over Suzuki's but you do have to take into consideration that although you are chasing reliability you also need a good warranty and service when that unfortunate time comes when you break down.

stang69
29-04-2014, 08:18 PM
tell the guy who said the Etec 40 would beat a Yamaha 50 he is dead set dreaming. Those 40 Etecs run like a 2 cylinder 2 stroke. Thats because they are a 2 cylinder 2 stroke. I would take a punt and say the Yammie 40 4 stroke would kill the Etec 40, plus it will be smoother and quieter and wont have that weird Etec fume smell.

davo
29-04-2014, 10:21 PM
The Etec thing has been around a long time. I know personally of at least three total failures. I mean seized throw aways but I know other that love them. It's more than Etec and Yamaha. It's the difference between buying a US built outboard and a Japanese outboard. The US stuff is too inconsistant. I say to people would you trade your Japanese 4WD on a Jeep. I wouldn't. The later ones should be better but it's Japanese all the way for me.

Shawn 66
30-04-2014, 05:54 AM
Hi shawn
how are u mate.yeah i think the 40hp will what i will end up with. I had a 50. 4 st yammy on last boat and loved it

cheets
Going well thanks Greg. What, are you ditching the ski Mate?
Shawn

dazyz1
09-05-2014, 05:12 PM
I've got an 40 Etec on a 440 Quintrex side console and it has buckets loads of torque and I've never had a problem with the motor. I'd buy another one any day of the week.

Seahorse
10-05-2014, 03:36 PM
Hi Shawn
nah till got the ski.
just need a tinnie to crab and fish around here. Just need a change.
catching anything lately

cheers
greg

oldie
10-05-2014, 09:17 PM
Id happily trade my Japanese 4wd on an F18 hornet!

nothing wrong with USA built motors have a look at how many are running around over there trouble free, the ETec failures are pretty consistant with certain models, but i'd personally be going 4 stroke rather than DI in the 40-60hp anything over it would be 4 stroke or Optimax

NQ-FISH
12-05-2014, 07:34 PM
seahorse the choice is yours had twin 130 e-tecs traded them in at 700hrs in that period i had done 4 injectors, 3 starter motors, 1 ecm, 1 flywheel and a couple of other problems cant remember now what the were,could not give motors away. Now have twin 150 4-stroke mercs 160 hrs not a problem and fuel burn is a lot better than the e-tecs. Thanks to mercury commercial on a special deal with the 150s i would have been lucky to get 9k for both e-tecs

Shawn 66
13-05-2014, 05:49 AM
Hi Shawn nah till got the ski. just need a tinnie to crab and fish around here. Just need a change. catching anything lately cheers greg Mate , Mainly been doing a fair bit of freshwater , last time out on the Pine managed to jag a nice jew . Good hunting mate. Shawn

ozscott
13-05-2014, 08:13 AM
I have been on several boats with etec's. They have all run sensationally - massive stonk for their size (better response by far off idle onto the plane and from low revs on the plane than a 4 stroke) and quiet. No smell. BUT, its like running a Ferrari for your everyday drive...if you are happy with that trade off then more power to you. For me I couldnt trust them. I would take a Yammy of any sought except a HPDI any day over an Etec. In terms of resale I would get offered for a trade on my 2000 115 Salt Water Yammy what you would get offered on a 2 year old ETEC of the same hp based on some comments on here. If ETEC was as bullet proof as a Yammy 4 stroke I would never look at a Yammy. I do doubt however whether an ETEC can get to that point given the technology and extreme lean running of the motor which requires oiling through the fuel/air/oil mix.

Cheers

hainsofast
13-05-2014, 10:07 AM
Etec's, white anchors, they are crap, as I have said, wouldn't touch one, wouldn't buy a boat with one on it (unless I could buy the hull only) steer clear, stay away, danger!!!

Noelm
13-05-2014, 10:41 AM
Etec's, white anchors, they are crap, as I have said, wouldn't touch one, wouldn't buy a boat with one on it (unless I could buy the hull only) steer clear, stay away, danger!!!
So... how many have you owned that gave you major trouble?

scottar
13-05-2014, 10:45 AM
They can all have issues. Some guy's get pretty excitable when it comes to brand loyalty. If resale is something you are concerned over pick the Yamaha. Next important thing to consider is your confidence with the selling/servicing dealer and availability of such.
Take into account warranty if you are buying new and above all do a heap of your own research. Long and short of it is you will most likely happy with either motor barring a mechanical failure. One of the most important things nowadays with any motor is good clean fuel.

hainsofast
13-05-2014, 11:01 AM
So... how many have you owned that gave you major trouble? haven't owned any mate, but have a few mates that have and they have all bar 1 had problems with them, also have mates with all other brands, yeah sure they have a few problems, but not as many as the white anchors, are you an etec salesman or something ??;D

Noelm
13-05-2014, 11:15 AM
AH, I see, never owned one, but the old "I have a mate"

scottar
13-05-2014, 11:31 AM
I have a mate that has had one Yamaha detonate at less than 20 hours and another spit a gearbox. There is/was a big thread on this site about an "unbranded" 200 hp requiring a new powerhead at about 50hrs, I spoke to a bloke at a boatshow that had a 300 Yammy sitting on a rack under his house because he couldn't afford the ridiculous cost of a new fuel pump when he got water in his fuel. There are plenty of complaints on the net about the 3.3 litre v6 yammy's having corrosion issue's with exhausts. Does this mean I wouldn't consider Yamaha for a new engine on my rig - not at all. They ALL can have issues. NONE of the brands can say they don't.

hainsofast
13-05-2014, 11:49 AM
AH, I see, never owned one, but the old "I have a mate"
I know several people who have had them, you on commission for ETEC mate, face facts they are not a good engine, if you like them, no worries, as I have said, I and many I know wouldn't touch one have a nice day.

hainsofast
13-05-2014, 11:51 AM
I have a mate that has had one Yamaha detonate at less than 20 hours and another spit a gearbox. There is/was a big thread on this site about an "unbranded" 200 hp requiring a new powerhead at about 50hrs, I spoke to a bloke at a boatshow that had a 300 Yammy sitting on a rack under his house because he couldn't afford the ridiculous cost of a new fuel pump when he got water in his fuel. There are plenty of complaints on the net about the 3.3 litre v6 yammy's having corrosion issue's with exhausts. Does this mean I wouldn't consider Yamaha for a new engine on my rig - not at all. They ALL can have issues. NONE of the brands can say they don't.
I agree with you on parts, my trim sensor broke when i was taking my engine off the back to do some remedial work and they want like $400 for a new one, RIP JOB

ozscott
13-05-2014, 12:06 PM
True they all have issues, its just that Etec's seem to have more and also they seem to be catastrophic based on reports on this site.

Cheers

ozscott
13-05-2014, 12:07 PM
Have they changed since this poll?

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?164534-Who-has-PERSONALLY-experienced-serious-engine-failure-in-the-first-3-5-years/page3

Cheers

Marko888
13-05-2014, 01:14 PM
Flawed poll. Where is the option to select "no failure in the past 3-5 years" with each brand? Where are they required to select engine year and model? That data doesn't tell us much at all.

scottar
13-05-2014, 01:16 PM
Have they changed since this poll?

Cheers

Unfortunatly without further facts, figures and filtering all that information is effectively worth naught. I can tell you that over the years I have seen probably three times the failure rate with Lowrance equipment than any other brand. What I didn't tell you is that at times we have sold 5 lowrance products for every one of everything else combined. What I also didn't tell you is that 1/3 of the Lowrance failures were caused by other precursors so were they really the fault of the product. Get my drift.

Personally, I have had an Evinrude have a terminal failure. It was under warranty at about 18 months old. They fitted a new powerhead and that donk ran faultlessy for another 17 years until I sold it despite never going near a mechanic. I changed the water pump 3 times in the near 20 years I owned it. The gearbox oil about every 3 years and had to replace the tilt pushrod due to corrosion. Would I buy another Evinrude - I did. A second Hand 200HO. Did it have some niggles - yes. The plugs hadn't been changed in it's 5 years of service. Motors Fault - No. That said when I wanted a tinny, did I rush straight out with Evinrude coloured glasses - Nope. I bought a second hand Merc-hatsu still under warranty. Did it have niggles - yes. The carby had crap in it from dodgy fuel - motors fault ? No.

My point is to approach this sort of situation with an open mind and if possible without emotion. My old man was/is anti mercury from the good old days of the black anchor. I still bought one and guess what - it's a bloody ripper little motor that I got for a bloody good deal. Will it have the same resale as a 4 stroke. Doubt it but it suits ME. No one else - just ME.

ozscott
13-05-2014, 01:52 PM
BUT Etec were not selling like Lowrance...the outboard world belongs to Yammy and Merc with the others taking a distant third. So Yammy sell way more motors but have less failures according to the poll. Look yes the poll is not perfect, but overall it gives us something. I would take the something over nothing.

Cheers

PS. I am open minded. I wanted the Poll to see what was what, not just based on hearing from people who had had failures or blokes who knew blokes who had failures. I have said many times that I love the etec as a concept and in practicality, but only when they are running well. Its not about outboards having problems, its about whether certain ones have a lot more than others...I dont know if ETEC does because I dont run an indy outboard servicing centre, but I know blokes who do service them, what I have heard here and from others and have formed a personal view.

ozscott
13-05-2014, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE=scottar;1548478...

Personally, I have had an Evinrude have a terminal failure. It was under warranty at about 18 months old. They fitted a new powerhead and that donk ran faultlessy for another 17 years until I sold it despite never going near a mechanic. I changed the water pump 3 times in the near 20 years I owned it. The gearbox oil about every 3 years and had to replace the tilt pushrod due to corrosion. Would I buy another Evinrude - I did. A second Hand 200HO. Did it have some niggles - yes. The plugs hadn't been changed in it's 5 years of service. Motors Fault - No. That said when I wanted a tinny, did I rush straight out with Evinrude coloured glasses - Nope. I bought a second hand Merc-hatsu still under warranty. Did it have niggles - yes. The carby had crap in it from dodgy fuel - motors fault ? No.

...[/QUOTE]

Scott carbed Evinrude's have a long and noble history. As I understand it they dont produce any motor that is not an ETEC anymore. I would buy an old Rude. I used to own a 40 Johnson. One cannot compare, and I dont, a pre-ficht and pre-etec rude with a carbed rude.

Cheers

scottar
13-05-2014, 02:33 PM
Fair call but my biggest issue personally with the poll is that you can't guarantee that all respondants are playing by the rules. as well as that as in the case of the yamaha I raised, how many were water in fuel etc. Personally I was in two minds with the "choice" of outboard when I bought my Victory due to all the information/misinformation on our beloved internet. I knew I wanted a Victory - it was the the only one of my selected range of models that would fit in my shed without serious modification (as it was the new doors cost a grand to get it in without dismantling the canopy). The process then came down to finding the right boat and at the back end of 5000kms looking at rigs that were "In excellent condition", that boat just happened to have an E-Tec. Trying to find one that had a good 4 stroke was harder than looking for one in good nick.

Now we are two and a half years down the track and apart from the initial teething problems due to previous ownership the experience has been a good one. There are pluses - No $600.00 dollar a year service, there are minuses - the liquid gold thay call oil but to date I have burn't about $200 worth soI figure I'm in front. Sure the resale is going to be woeful but my ownership patterns tend to indicate that that doesn't really figure in the decision anyway. Down the track - who knows.

If I change my motor, would I go straight out and buy another - No. I would sit down and have a logical comparison of all the motors that fall within my wanted horsepower range and then start eliminating them one by one for reasons I percieved to be important. If one of those just happens to be because of hate mail on the internet then so be it. Doubt it though.

As far as Yamaha/Merc owning the outboard world at the moment you are probably right but they have both had there share of dogs along the way. The younger generation probably won't remember the water jacket corrosion issues and powerpack failures for Merc in the earlier years but they have kept improving there products to get to where they are. BRP is doing the same and to simply right off a brand without consideration because of earlier generation issues when the parent company is investing in the technology to improve it - none of us would have boats if that was the case.

stevemid
13-05-2014, 06:21 PM
Brand loyalty is a funny thing, based on many things including experience but heavily influenced by advertising, superstition and ignorance, at times. I once had a post-retirement job handing out free XXXX beer samples at bottle shops along the F3 between Sydney and the Central Coast. I copped sooooo much shite from the tradies headed calling in for a bottle in the brown paper parcel. Mostly along the lines of "what would you rednecks from Qld know about beer OR football? You can't imagine the look I got when I informed them that both Tooheys and XXXX were made by the same Kiwi company Lion Nathan. Kinda took the puff out of brand loyalty - for the very few who believed me.

Wikipedia has a good article on brand loyalty here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_loyalty
Steve

scottar
13-05-2014, 06:28 PM
. Mostly along the lines of "what would you rednecks from Qld know about beer OR football?

Steve

I wonder if they would ask the same question nowadays??? LOL

stevemid
13-05-2014, 06:50 PM
I wonder if they would ask the same question nowadays??? LOL Yes, no shite. This, obviously was more than 7 years ago. On a lighter note, and getting back to the subject of this thread, here is an outboard fanatic of the unusual kind: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd2g IdMRwfuM&ei=I9xxU9ivF4KzlQWK94GABA&usg=AFQjCNFqdCfXK0LnF9sOpF5DTLeUDy4x1A&sig2=JpaDvnv2rDN_kPOydwcHLQ&bvm=bv.66330100,d.dGI

scottar
13-05-2014, 07:29 PM
Mate if we could get that to happen there would only be one brand of motor sold and all this other BS wouldn't come into it at all. LOL.

ranga7
15-05-2014, 06:43 AM
suzuki,suzuki

scottar
15-05-2014, 07:55 AM
Take two aspro and see me in the morning??

RayLamp
15-05-2014, 09:45 AM
Yes, no shite. This, obviously was more than 7 years ago. On a lighter note, and getting back to the subject of this thread, here is an outboard fanatic of the unusual kind: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd2g IdMRwfuM&ei=I9xxU9ivF4KzlQWK94GABA&usg=AFQjCNFqdCfXK0LnF9sOpF5DTLeUDy4x1A&sig2=JpaDvnv2rDN_kPOydwcHLQ&bvm=bv.66330100,d.dGI
That video is a phallusy!!! :D

boboncc
15-05-2014, 10:03 AM
That video is a phallusy!!! :D

For some it could be what dreams are made of!!!!!!! ;D

ozscott
15-05-2014, 11:06 AM
haha...thats is superb...phallasy. Love it. What a great combo of phallus and fallacy. It works so well in an etec v yammy thread.

Cheers

scottar
15-05-2014, 12:59 PM
Especially with a good bit of "yamahardness"

RayLamp
15-05-2014, 01:31 PM
You would have thought that Johnson be more closely linked with hardness.

It always made me wonder what the americans thought of an aussie racing driver called Dick Johnson...

stevemid
15-05-2014, 03:05 PM
You would have thought that Johnson be more closely linked with hardness.

It always made me wonder what the americans thought of an aussie racing driver called Dick Johnson...

Obviously they would think he was a Johnson